>
> On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:14:41 -0500 (CDT) Jeffrey Gibson >
<jgibson@acfsysv.roosevelt.edu> writes:
> >1. It is precisely because "it seem[s] strange that we should pray
> >that God would not lead us into such testings" that the view of the
> >petition as envisaging the testing of believers (either now or in
> >some "final/eschatological PEIRASMOS" is so questionable. They
> >would then be asking "Deny us the privilege of being found faithful
> >in PEIRASMOS; dispenses us from fulfilling God's will in such a
> >test". Note, too, that should PEIRASMOS bear the sense that
> >"temptation" nowadays connotes, namely, "incitement to do what is
> >known to be wrong, an inner inclination to wrongdoing with the
> >prospect of pleasure or advantage", then it is even more difficult
> >to think that it is believers experiencing PEIRASMOS that is in
> >view in the petition. For the petition then has in mind the
> >possibility of God intending to lead or even deliberately leading
> >his own into situations where they will be enticed to do what they
> >know is wrong.
> I see. You are concluding since PEIRASMOS means test or trial
> for faithfulness, and since such results in good for Christians, then
> it makes no sense for Christians to pray this petition. Therefore, it
> must be a petition for non-Christians.
> Hmm, this does pose some problems. See below. >
[snip]
>Furthermore, your conclusion in the Lord's Prayer that the petition
> is not for Christians, but for non-Christians, is curious. How do you
> deal with the facts that 1) Christ is addressing His disciples, and
> 2) the prayer is addressed hMWN PATHR? >
Paul,
Perhaps you missed my (even) earlier post
on this topic. I am NOT claiming that because the petition does not
involve a prayer that believers be prevented from experiencing PEIRASMOS
that, therefore, the petition is for non Christians. What belivers are to
pray for is that THEY not be allowed *to exercise* PEIRASMOS against God,
that is, to be delivered from doing what Israel did in the wilderness when
at MASSA (LXX PEIRASMOS) they put God to the test. We find the same
warning in Hebrews 3:7-11, Ps. 78, and in Mark's Gethsemane story. After
all, immediately after Jesus tells his disciples to pray that they do not
enter into PEIRASMOS, Jesus prays that he will be given the strength not
to doubt the propriety of God's ways (not MY will but YOURS), which is
what Exod. 17, Num 11, Pss 17, 95, Heb 3 James 1 and many other texts
indicate is the essence of "testing" God.
[snip]
> Furthermore, your conclusion in the Lord's Prayer that the petition > is
not for Christians, but for non-Christians, is curious. How do you > deal
with the facts that 1) Christ is addressing His disciples, and > 2) the
prayer is addressed hMWN PATHR? > Paul, Perhaps you missed my (even)
earlier post on this topic. I am NOT claiming that because the petition
does not involve a prayer that believers be prevented from experiencing
PEIRASMOS that, therefore, the petition is for non Christians. What
belivers are to pray for is that THEY not be allowed *to exercise*
PEIRASMOS against God, that is, to be delivered from doing what Israel did
in the wilderness when at MASSA (LXX PEIRASMOS) they put God to the test.
We find the same warning in Hebrews 3:7-11, Ps. 78, and in Mark's
Gethsemane story. After all, immediately after Jesus tells his disciples
to pray that they do not enter into PEIRASMOS, Jesus prays that he will be
given the strength not to doubt the propriety of God's ways (not MY will
but YOURS), which is what Exod. 17, Num 11, Pss 17, 95, Heb 3 James 1 and
many other texts indicate is the essence of "testing" God.
> Your reasoning here, however, is based upon an assumption you
> might want to reconsider. By what right do you infer from
>
> MH EISENEGKHS hMAS EIS PEIRASMON
>
> that God may lead us into PEIRASMON if we don't pray this?
My reasoning here is that God is CAPABLE of doing so. Why pray for
hin NOT to if ultimately he has no responsibilty for this.
As to the problems with the assertion in James that God' "tests no one",
it is true that IF we take "entice to Evil" as the real meaning here, the
apparent contradiction between this text and the Biblical topos that God
DOES subject believers to PEIRASMOS does indeed disappear. I'll have more
to say on this later, but for now, all I say is that even should this be
an instance in which PEIRASMOS is used with the meaning "tempt" in the
modern sense of the word, it doesn't get us very far. It may be an
exception, and it would be fallacious to read an exceptional meaning back
into Matt 6:13//Lk 11:4.
In any case, thanks for your continued questions. I'm enjoying the
exchange immensely.
Jeffrey Gibson
jgibson@acfsysv.roosevelt.edu