-----Clay's post:------>
Edward Hobbs Wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Someone has already referred to work on "Figures of Speech," which is what
you may be asking about. But may I speak to the larger question of what
are called "IDIOMS" in language-teaching. Students used to be taught, when
studying almost any language other than their own, to memorize "idioms"
which exist in the second language. As I learned more about linguistics,
and came to teach ancient Greek and Hebrew (even Latin one year, mea
culpa!)
for decades, I discovered that this is a very misleading way of thinking
about language. What older books almost always meant by an "idiom" was
something which, when translated word-for-word into English either didn't
make sense or made the wrong sense. Hence, one had to learn that words
X-Y-Z in that order didn't mean X-Y-Z in English, but meant something more
like F-J-Q in English.
But the fact is, very little in other languages means the same thing when
put word-for-word into English.
{snip}
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
While I agree with Edward on the misunderstandings that can arise by
always focusing on translation as a goal, I think what he is saying here
perhaps proves too much. I might conclude from reading this that what we
need to do is throw away our lexicons because they are misleading.
---------Edward Hobbs commenting here:----->
If one were to conclude this, one would misunderstand my meaning totally.
It is precisely my purpose to send students to the good lexicons, such as
Bauer, LSJMG, and Louw-Nida, instead of learning word-lists with an English
translation for each word. It is the latter process that led to the
creation of the notion of "idiom" in foreign-language teaching.
--------Clay again---->
A member of the b-greek list in a private post recently suggested building
an idiom dictionary for NT Greek. I think this is not only a good idea, but I
think it can be done with all the appropriate linguistic finesse that works
like Bullinger's do not possess. There are common expressions in the Greek
NT that show a lot of semantic skewing. These expressions are particularly
difficult for new students. I see no reason why a lexicon of these
expressions could not be built after the model of Louw and Nida's work. The
problem that Edward is addressing can be avoided by showing that each of
these expressions (Idioms) has a semantic domain like all other lexical
tokens. The only difference between this kind of a dictionary and Louw and
Nida's would be that the lexical token would now be made of short strings of
words instead of a single word. I think that such a tool would have value and
that it would have no more shortcomings linguistically than any lexicon.
------Edward again--->
The fact is that the good lexicons already do this, without singling out
such phrases for separate listing. An examination of almost any major
article in LSJMG will show exactly such phrases discussed and glossed, and
usually it is os in Bauer.
Should there be a separate little book, listing only such phrases? I
suppose it would be useful for beginners, but it would have the
disadvantage of steering them away from the great lexicons. I have always
required my Greek students (by now, several thousand in number) to use
Bauer by the third week of Greek, and LSJM (now LSJMG) by the fifth week.
They need to know from the beginning that semantic domains in Greek do not
match those of English words and phrases, and these lexicons help in that
process.
-------Clay once more--->
Having said this, I should add that Edward's word of caution is important. I
think that memorizing word lists with English equivalents is the wrong way
to learn a language. The semantic value of a word should always be
evaluated contextually. The student should acquire a knowledge of a words
semantic domain by reading the word in many different contexts. An some
point, the Greek word needs to take on an identity of its own divorced from
the English equivalent. This will be a slow process for beginners but it
needs to be a goal. This principle applies equally to individual words and to
strings of words which are semantically opaque (Idioms).
-------Edward, finally--->
Here, Clay has said just what I want to say, in his words rather than mine.
Apparently I expressed myself too briefly, or too opaquely, or too clumsily
for this intention to be clear. (This often happens when I try to be brief!
As a professor, I tend to deliver my ideas in 50-minute units--or since
coming to Harvard and Wellesley, in 70-minute units. Anything shorter, I
am likely to leave out key qualifications!)
Thanks to Clay, who helped clarify what I was getting at.
Edward Hobbs
--who began teaching Greek just fifty years ago this coming September