>> "sin not doing...
>> because his seed in him abides and not he is able to be
sinning...
>> because of God he has been birthed"?
>
EDGAR
Let me say for the record that I have no problem with the translation "be
sinning." I do have a problem with some of the concepts extrapolated from
this rendering.
BILL
The concept of "sinless perfectionism" is very obviously wrong. The danger
would be to compromise the translation "to prevent misuse", and in the
process, support orthodoxy, but obscure an important revelation from God.
The jots and tittles are important. If we add *or subtract* from Scripture,
we get into trouble.
EDGAR
I think that John is encouraging believers to conduct themselves in a manner
which differs greatly from the world.
BILL
John's epistle, though ever pastoral, is, IMHO, for the purpose of
clarifying doctrinal issues about God. He is establishing "that which was
from the beginning [of the Message]" and ends with "keep yourself from
idols". He is showing false and true Christians based on their walk and
talk, and faith and practice.
EDGAR
The believer has God's "seed" in him or her. While the concept of what John
meant by "seed" is debatable, I think John had reference to the figurative
"sperm" of God which is His Holy Spirit.
BILL
I agree. But of course, we raise the questions:
* does the original seed, Adam's seed, still abide in the believer?
* does this imply an entirely new nature?
* do we get "all of God", or just an "influence"?
* can someone born of divine seed sin?
EDGAR
Since believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, sin goes against the nature
of the one in whom the Spirit "dwells."
BILL
I guess then, that your answer is that we get "all of God", ie: His own
person, not just similar characteristics;
EDGAR
The Spirit impels a Christian to walk in the way of righteousness, and to
shun the works of darkness. A child of God has experienced a magnificent,
unique birth, and subsequently possesses the traits of Deity.
BILL
Now you're soft on the "totalness" of the newness of the nature. Is it the
perfect Holy Spirit, or just a human Spirit now under strong influence?
EDGAR
That is, the children have the traits of their Father. Since this is the
case, LOYAL children DON'T practice sin.
BILL
Now we've taken a huge step. What of "unloyal children"? Do you see how the
logic skipped a beat? First of all, in order to know what you are building,
we have to be crystal clear on whether or not a believer has "traits" of
their Father in some limited sense, or whether they have God Himself within
and "being their nature".
If we say that we only get an influence, then we would say that John is
saying:
"Those who are under the influence of God now have a strong tendency not to
sin".
If we say that those who believe have God indwelling them, in His person,
then we expect the stronger result:
"Those who are born of God cannot sin".
EDGAR
I think this is what John is saying. Those who remain EN XRISTOS NEVER
practice sin (John 15:1-8).
BILL
*Not ignoring I John 2:1*, how do we read this?
Influenced or "born of HIM"?
Never Practice? or Cannot be?
Edgar, please don't think I am trying to prove "sinless perfectionism"! My
sordid track record would never allow for such an interpretation! But, I am
convinced that traditional interpretations are missing the full impact of
these words. The nature of God within us is not "mostly righteous", but
"unable to be sinning".
I am not ignoring I John 2:1!
>> How does John want us to see cause and effect here?
>
>I hope the above helps. I would succintly say that John's point is:
>"birth from God (the cause) produces (the effect) eschewing of
>habitual sin."
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Edgar
>
>
>
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