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b-greek-digest V1 #620
b-greek-digest Sunday, 19 March 1995 Volume 01 : Number 620
In this issue:
Re: Josephus on prophets
Re: Josephus on prophets
Re: Josephus on prophets
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From: cba@cba.onramp.net
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 16:09:35 cst
Subject: Re: Josephus on prophets
At the risk of appearing overtly critical I think Greg has glossed over
some points. Jo. has an adversion to calling the 'sects' during his 'own day'
by Jewish conventions. He signifies their existence as philosophical
schools--an obvious attempt to resonate with his Greco-Roman (and Flavian)
audience. Moreover, he has a distinct _tendez_ in offering exculpatory
evidence on the behalf of the Pharisees. In addition, he also goes to great
lengths to present the Jewish faith as innocent of the sole breach of the
_Pax Romana_ (in roughly a two hundred year period only the Jews were guilty
of this percieved breech). It comes as litte wonder than that Jo. would paint
J. the B. in a light that has does not mirror the so-called prophets that
arose during this turbulent period (roughly nine to ten from Judas, Theudas,
etc. until the destruction by Titus and Vespesian). Such a moniker would have
elicted an opprobrious view of John in the eyes of his audience. And, as
seems probable, Jo. thought well of J. the B. then it comes as no surprise
that he did not refer to him in the manner of the Gospels. Moreover, the most
proximate temporal, and religious, source for the J. the B. ministry is the
Gospel material (and Acts)--not Josephus. The normative canons on proper
historiographical methodology dictate that the Gospels should recieve
priority. Hope this little soapbox lecture has been probative rather than a
pain.
Best Regards
Bill
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From: cba@cba.onramp.net
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 17:42:54 cst
Subject: Re: Josephus on prophets
Paleo-Bill's points are not incorrect, just in need of some nuancing.
Josephus' language for JBap IS, as PaleoBill indicates, hellenised.
Fine. The question is: so what?
Josephus can use the term _profetes_ of other contemporaries
both favourably and unfavourably -- remember, he thinks of
himself as a _profetes_: does this mean that he wants to call
down opprobrium on himself?! I don't think so. But this
double and triple use should indicate that we need to
do more than look at the use of the term. For the term needs to be
unpacked.
As I have tried to suggest, the point is: what does
Josephus MEAN when he says _profetes_? Likewise, what does he MEAN
by describing JBap in highly hellenised form?
I think that it will ultimately be more helpful to examine the use of
the terminology that Josephus DOES use for JBap and see how it fits
other figures he may describe, than it will to suppose on the basis
of the Gospel traditions that Josephus MUST describe JBap as a
prophet and then look desperately for something that may not
even be there.
Re. Gospel evidence: Paleo-Bill says that
> the most
> proximate temporal, and religious, source for the J. the B. ministry is the
> Gospel material (and Acts)--not Josephus. The normative canons on proper
> historiographical methodology dictate that the Gospels should recieve
> priority.
So ANTIQUIUS MELIUS always applies in historiography? Would you
agree then that Q1 may be a better index of what the historical Jesus
was like than the canonical Gospels -- assuming Q1, of course?
Shouldn't one also take into consideration bias and possible
authorial intent? Does this mean that Mark is better than John?
Lots of questions raised in that final statement.
Greetings!
L. GREGORY BLOOMQUIST
Faculty of Theology | Faculte de Theologie
Saint Paul University | Universite Saint-Paul
(University of Ottawa | Universite d'Ottawa)
223 Main, Ottawa, Ontario, K1S 1C4 CANADA
Email: GBLOOMQUIST@SPU.STPAUL.UOTTAWA.CA
Voice: 613-236-1393 (messages) / 613-782-3027 (direct)
Fax: 613-236-4108
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From: cba@cba.onramp.net
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 15:42:02 cst
Subject: Re: Josephus on prophets
On Thu, 16 Mar 1995, Gregory Bloomquist wrote:
> So, a suggestion: let's assume with Larry an hypothesis that accords
> the historical JBap the status or role of _profetes_; however, let's
> also ask then why Josephus, differently from the Gospel writers, has
> painted JBap in a highly stylised portrayal of Hellenistic sage,
> something that he also did with other "prophets"?
>
> And bringing us full circle: might the answer to that question
> suggest why, assuming Larry's hypothesis of the historical Jesus as
> prophet, the earliest Gospel tradents (e.g., the earliest line
> of thinking in Q1) might have done the same with Jesus?
A most interesting line of reflection! Should it be the case that "the
earliest Gospel tradents" preferred a more "hellenized" or sage-like
Jesus (and, please note, I'm not yet able to see from Kloppenborg et alia
yet quite why this suggestion is taken by some as so forceful or likely),
we should certainly observe Kloppenborg's caution against reading his
proposed literary history of Q as indicating/equalling the tradition
history of the Jesus material. Put positively, Kloppenborg himself warns
us that material that might have been added later to Q might well have
been among the earliest Jesus material around, and might have very good
call for being considered authentic (e.g., eschatological material).
But to return to Greg's question, yes, I think we also have to
consider what factors/forces might have moved Q1 folks to draft their
Jesus the way some propose they did. One possibly relevant matter is
that Kloppenborg also insists that "Q" = LITERARY phenomena, not oral
tradition (contra, e.g., Kelber), and that it = GREEK material, not
Aramaic material. So, on this suggestion, the folks in question might
well have been preparing a picture of Jesus to commend him to tastes that
favored Greek-philosophical values/characteristics/themes, in which case
the proposed sophistic Jesus of Q1 might be a secondary, lateral
adaptation of Jesus & Christianity somewhat comparable in some respects
to Josephus' attempt to portray and commend Judaism to his non-Jewish
readers.
But I must leave this speculative line for others and commitments
of my own summon.
Cheers. Larry Hurtado, Religion, Univ. of Manitoba
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End of b-greek-digest V1 #620
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