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b-greek-digest V1 #707
b-greek-digest Sunday, 14 May 1995 Volume 01 : Number 707
In this issue:
Singe to Multi accent converter "TONISMOS"
Re: Greek transliteration conventions
Looking for Anna Maria Schwerner
Re: Greek transliteration conventions
Re: Critical Apparatus
'HLIAS vs `HLIOS (transliterations ...)
Re: more inclusivity
subscription
Re: Critical Apparatus
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: George Chryssogelos <geo@prometheus.hol.gr>
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 10:33:28 +0200 (GMT+0200)
Subject: Singe to Multi accent converter "TONISMOS"
The Software converter "TONISMOS", is now compatible with the Greek
multi-accent font, which is supplied with WinGreek 1.9 - BETA .
"TONISMOS", is a converter of Greek-single-accent texts (oxu), to
Greek-multi-accent texts, "running" on a IBM compatible; producing
multi-accent-Greek texts in all the known (to us) formats.
It supports all the multi-accent-Greek (polytonic) fonts made in Greece,
and the font mentioned above.
Description
-----------
INPUT: Greek ASCII text (DOS), single-accent ( acute accents -oxu- )
+
Software "TONISMOS" Ver. 2.7.6
OPTIONS FOR THE USER(YES/NO):
grave accent, iota subscript, r with rough breathing,
language demotic, language ancient-purified, text from
Macintosh.
==> 1st OUTPUT: Greek ASCII text (DOS), multi-accent (acute-grave
accent, rough-smooth breathing, circumflex, iota subscript)
+
FILTERS
==> 2nd OUTPUT: Greek-multi-accent text for WIN-DOS-MAC (all known
fonts).
Macintosh machines "read" the multi-accent-file with no need of
conversion utilities (Maclink etc..)
------------------------------
From: George Baloglou <baloglou@oswego.oswego.edu>
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 04:30:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Greek transliteration conventions
On Thu, 11 May 1995, Stephen Carlson wrote:
>
> Not to recommend this convention (in fact, I don't), the native Greek
> speakers on soc.culture.greek have devised their own system for Modern
> Greek, based upon visual similarities of the letters:
>
> Upper case: A B G D E Z H 8 I K L M N 5 O 7 P S T Y F X 4 W
> Lower case a b g d e z h 0 i k l m v 3 o n p c,s t u f x y w
>
To clarify matters a bit, this alphabet is used on soc.culture.greek
by myself and ... no one else, essentially :-) It is funny to see it
here, shortly before exiting b-greek for the summer (in Greece) ...
Most Greeks or people familiar with the Greek alphabet can read it
rather easily, although a friend of mine complains about "n" and "c";
its use and people's reactions to it raise interesting issues that
do not quite belong here. I would rather mention here a question
currently debated on soc.culture.greek ("Greek surnames") as follows:
Is the Greek name "Helias" *simply* the Greek version of "Eliahu" or
it derives from "helios" = "sun"? It is interesting, by the way, that
all "St. Elias" chapels in Greece are built on top of a hill--perhaps
"illuminating" the nearby plains, as someone pointed out on scg?
On my part, I notice (LS) that "Heliades" = "Son of Sun" used to be
a family name in Rhodes (nowadays it simply means "Son of Helias" as
a Greek surname), while (BAG) "eli" means "my God" in Hebrew (and
"Eliahu" = "Son of God", perhaps?); could the sun be to the Greeks
what God was to the Hebrews, at least linguistically so? Or is this
similarity a coincidence?
A netter from Iceland (named Helias ...) did mention a passage from
the New Testament where the prophet is indeed addressed as "Helias",
raising the obvious question of whether the introduction of "Helias"
into Greek is indeed a Christian deed.
Anyway, your response(s) would be appreciated; if you wish, you can
submit a file that I can forward to scg, with the appropriate credit,
of course.
George Baloglou
"Memory of my people, your name is Pindos, your name is Athos" ("AXION ESTI")
"MNHMH TOU LAOU MOU, SE LENE PINDO, SE LENE ATHW" [Odysseas Elytis]
------------------------------
From: W.Burton@agora.stm.it
Date: Sat, 13 May 95 2:26:15 GMT
Subject: Looking for Anna Maria Schwerner
Can anyone give me the e-mail or snail address for Dr. Anna Maria
Schwerner? I'd recieved an
address from the list in early April and sent a letter requesting a copy of
her dissertation on the
"Vitae Prophetarum." However, the address was not at all clear and since
I haven't heard
anything I'm wondering if the address I had was correct.
If anyone can help me locate Dr. Schwerner I would very much appreciate it.
Thanks,
Bill Burton
Gregorian University, Rome
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 07:13:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Greek transliteration conventions
On Sat, 13 May 1995, George Baloglou wrote:
> ... I would rather mention here a question
> currently debated on soc.culture.greek ("Greek surnames") as follows:
>
> Is the Greek name "Helias" *simply* the Greek version of "Eliahu" or
> it derives from "helios" = "sun"? It is interesting, by the way, that
> all "St. Elias" chapels in Greece are built on top of a hill--perhaps
> "illuminating" the nearby plains, as someone pointed out on scg?
I'm not quite sure about the word you're asking about: is the "H" of
"Helias" meant to be an aspirate or is it an additional syllable of a
name we might pronounce (forgive this!) "ee-eh-lee-as"? If it is this
latter, then it seems to me it ought to be derived from the ancient Greek
word for sun, Homeric H-E-LI-OS (where the H is an Eta with smooth
breathing) and classical Attic hH-LI-OS (where the first syllable is
rough breathing + Eta. The Greek formation of Elijah is H-LI-AS.
> On my part, I notice (LS) that "Heliades" = "Son of Sun" used to be
> a family name in Rhodes (nowadays it simply means "Son of Helias" as
> a Greek surname), while (BAG) "eli" means "my God" in Hebrew (and
> "Eliahu" = "Son of God", perhaps?); could the sun be to the Greeks
> what God was to the Hebrews, at least linguistically so? Or is this
> similarity a coincidence?
I had thought that Elijah's name, Eliahu, was actually derivative eiher
from "Eli Yahu" -- "My God is Yahweh" -- or from "Eli Ya hu" -- "My God,
He is Yahweh."
As for sun-gods in the Hebrew tradition, the only thing that I've ever
heard connected is the name of Samson (SHIMSHON) as derived from Shemesh,
"Sun."
> A netter from Iceland (named Helias ...) did mention a passage from
> the New Testament where the prophet is indeed addressed as "Helias",
> raising the obvious question of whether the introduction of "Helias"
> into Greek is indeed a Christian deed.
>
> Anyway, your response(s) would be appreciated; if you wish, you can
> submit a file that I can forward to scg, with the appropriate credit,
> of course.
You'd best not forward anything at all until you get some responses from
people who really know some Hebrew!
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
------------------------------
From: Jeff Kloha <kloha@sauron.multiverse.com>
Date: Sat, 13 May 95 10:25:25 EDT
Subject: Re: Critical Apparatus
On Fri, 12 May 1995 16:43:24 -0300 you wrote:
>Hello,>My question is - - Is there something out there that is more complete than
>what is given to us in the UBS4? I would be most eager to have it in my library.
>
>Thanks,
>--
>
>John Calvin Hall - `O doulos tou Kuriou 'Ihsou Xristou
>Pensacola, Florida
>johnhall@gulf.net
>
> *** Isaiah 66:5 ***
>
How complete do you want to be, and more importantly, how much do you
want to spend? The "most complete" (and accurate) critical apparatus
for any NT book is the _Gospel According to St. Luke_ put out by The
American and British Committees of the International Greek New
Testament Project, 2 vols (Oxford, 1984 & 87). It is the continuation
of the work of C. S. Legg, who compiled apparati for Matt and Mark in
the late 1930's that were terribly inaccurate. Last I saw, the
schedule for John is to release a volume on the papyri first, then the
uncials, etc. The Luke volumes, last I saw, run about $120 each.
The old classics are Tischendorfs 8th edition (1869) which included
only a handful of minor papyri, and von Soden (1913), but you there
have to work with a different method of identifying the mss. Then
there is the new work of the Aland's Institut in Muenster, a series
titled "Text und Textwert." Volumes are out for most of the Pauline
and Catholic epistles and Acts. I haven't used this much. As I
understand it, these only cite variants for selected "test passages"
and is intended to work toward reconstructing the history of the text,
rather than supplying a complete critical apparatus. I suspect we
won't have easy access to all (most?) possible readings until someone
gets all the texts onto computers and then is willing to release it to
the community.
///////+\\\\\\\
Jeff Kloha [] Lakewood, OH
kloha@po.multiverse.com [] KCICXC
------------------------------
From: George Baloglou <baloglou@oswego.oswego.edu>
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 12:33:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 'HLIAS vs `HLIOS (transliterations ...)
On Sat, 13 May 1995, Carl W Conrad wrote:
> On Sat, 13 May 1995, George Baloglou wrote:
>
> > ... I would rather mention here a question
> > currently debated on soc.culture.greek ("Greek surnames") as follows:
> >
> > Is the Greek name "Helias" *simply* the Greek version of "Eliahu" or
> > it derives from "helios" = "sun"? It is interesting, by the way, that
> > all "St. Elias" chapels in Greece are built on top of a hill--perhaps
> > "illuminating" the nearby plains, as someone pointed out on scg?
>
> I'm not quite sure about the word you're asking about: is the "H" of
> "Helias" meant to be an aspirate or is it an additional syllable of a
> name we might pronounce (forgive this!) "ee-eh-lee-as"? If it is this
> latter, then it seems to me it ought to be derived from the ancient Greek
> word for sun, Homeric H-E-LI-OS (where the H is an Eta with smooth
> breathing) and classical Attic hH-LI-OS (where the first syllable is
> rough breathing + Eta. The Greek formation of Elijah is H-LI-AS.
>
"H" in biblical/modern Greek "Helias" is a syllable, preceded by (what
used to stand for) a rough breathing: 'HLIAS, as opposed to `HLIOS = sun
(in modern Greek always). Interestingly enough, the ancient name cited
in my previous message (right below) is written as `HLIADHS = son of sun;
compare with modern Greek surname 'HLIADHS = son of Elias :-))
That is, my "transliteration" of 'HLIAS as Helias was quite misleading
(apologies in order ...). Anyway, the use of ` (smooth breathing) and '
(rough breathing) for this special occasion does clarify the matter,
I hope: it is almost certain now that modern Greek 'HLIAS, celebrated
on July 20th, comes from Hebrew Eliahu rather than Homeric 'HELIOS.
> > On my part, I notice (LS) that "Heliades" = "Son of Sun" used to be
> > a family name in Rhodes (nowadays it simply means "Son of Helias" as
> > a Greek surname), while (BAG) "eli" means "my God" in Hebrew (and
> > "Eliahu" = "Son of God", perhaps?); could the sun be to the Greeks
> > what God was to the Hebrews, at least linguistically so? Or is this
> > similarity a coincidence?
>
> I had thought that Elijah's name, Eliahu, was actually derivative eiher
> from "Eli Yahu" -- "My God is Yahweh" -- or from "Eli Ya hu" -- "My God,
> He is Yahweh."
>
> As for sun-gods in the Hebrew tradition, the only thing that I've ever
> heard connected is the name of Samson (SHIMSHON) as derived from Shemesh,
> "Sun."
>
> > A netter from Iceland (named Helias ...) did mention a passage from
> > the New Testament where the prophet is indeed addressed as "Helias",
> > raising the obvious question of whether the introduction of "Helias"
> > into Greek is indeed a Christian deed.
> >
> > Anyway, your response(s) would be appreciated; if you wish, you can
> > submit a file that I can forward to scg, with the appropriate credit,
> > of course.
>
> You'd best not forward anything at all until you get some responses from
> people who really know some Hebrew!
>
Advice well taken :-) I will mention the observation about the apostrophes
(breathings) without mentioning your name, however; after all, it is
something that *every* Greek should be able to notice--funny, by the way,
that the apostrophes (no longer having any breathing significance, anyway)
have been eliminated from the Greek grammar for the last twenty years or so!
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University
> One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
> (314) 935-4018
> cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
>
George Baloglou
"Memory of my people, your name is Pindos, your name is Athos" ("AXION ESTI")
"MNHMH TOU LAOU MOU, SE LENE PINDO, SE LENE ATHW" [Odysseas Elytis]
------------------------------
From: Mari Olsen <molsen@astrid.ling.nwu.edu>
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 15:16:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: more inclusivity
> On Wed, 10 May 1995, Pat Tiller wrote:
For some reason, I didn't get the Pat Tiller message...
>
> >On Tue, 9 May 1995, Mari Olsen wrote:
> >
> >> When man is depressed, he loses interest in his wife and children.
> >
> >Of the three examples given, this one seems to me to be not only the most
> >jarring, but wrong as well. In such a phrase, I would expect "man" to be
> >unmarked for gender, while "wife and children" imply a specific gender
> >and specific social circumstances as well.
>
> There is good reason that this is jarring. Without an article "man" is
> generic and is often intended to be inclusive, meaning "mankind" (or
> "humankind" if you insist). But "his wife and children" seems to refer to
> someone specific and exclusively male. One would expect "a man" in the
> subordinate clause, not "man." "A man" is both specific and exclusive.
> Thanks, Pat, for pointing this out. Of course, Greek does not have an
> indefinite article to mark this difference.
Specificity does not make the noun 'man' exclusively male. Consider
Galatians 6:1 --if a man (anthrwpos) is caught in any trespass. I
maintain that jarring comes from the fact that we no longer perceive
'man' generically on it's own--it's the context that disambiguates it
for us. FOr example:
When (a) man is convicted of a crime, he must serve his punishment
(females included).
When a man is depressed, he loses interest in his wife and children
(females excluded).
When a man is depressed, he loses interest in his family.
(could be either, but tends to be perceived as male)
Again, with respect to the Greek, the issue is preserving exactly that
ambiguity that is present in the Greek and not introducing any. The
question is therefore whether 'man' serves as the equivalent of the
Greek 'anthropos' in any functional (non-prescriptive) sense.
Mari Broman Olsen
Northwestern University
Department of Linguistics
2016 Sheridan Road
Evanston, IL 60208
molsen@astrid.ling.nwu.edu
molsen@babel.ling.nwu.edu
------------------------------
From: Honmiss@aol.com
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 17:23:19 -0400
Subject: subscription
sub b-greek
------------------------------
From: John Calvin Hall <johnhall@gulf.net>
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 22:08:28 -0300
Subject: Re: Critical Apparatus
>How complete do you want to be, and more importantly, how much do you
>want to spend?
I am in the process of _fanatically_ building up my private library, and am
willing to invest a lot in books <my priorities in life: 1.God 2.Wife
3.Family 4.BOOKS!!!>. If it's exhaustive, I don't mind investing the money.
I would also love to get a hold of Plates of papyri, and codices. I saw the
reprint of Codex Aleph (or was it B), but nothing else.
- --
John Calvin Hall - `O doulos tou Kuriou 'Ihsou Xristou
Pensacola, Florida
johnhall@gulf.net
*** Isaiah 66:5 ***
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #707
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