[Prev][Next][Index][Thread]
b-greek-digest V1 #779
b-greek-digest Tuesday, 11 July 1995 Volume 01 : Number 779
In this issue:
Announcing the KIHM listserve for Cdn Christians.
Another question on Aland
Re: End of Mark Possibilities
College Textbooks
Re: Another question on Aland
Re: Ph.D. Programs in Textual Criticism, Again
Re: Another question on Aland
Re: Date of Last Supper (was Artos/Azymos)
Re: Another question on Aland
Re: Date of Last Supper (was Artos/Azymos)
Re: Validity of Ireneaus
Re: Date of Last Supper
Re: Validity of Ireneaus
Re: Date of Last Supper
Re: Validity of Irenaeus
Re: College Textbooks
Re: Validity of Irenaeus
Porter on Grk aspect
Re: Date of Last Supper
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bill Mudry <bill.mudry@canrem.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 03:52:00 -0400
Subject: Announcing the KIHM listserve for Cdn Christians.
I hope this announcement is not totally out of topic for this area. If so
please forgive the intrusion :-).
OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT
=====================
THE OPENING OF A DISCUSSION FORUM ON THE INTERNET
-------------------------------------------------
FOR THE KING'S INFORMATION HIGHWAY MINISTRY
-------------------------------------------
The Christian community now has a discussion forum specifically for Canada
for talking about, promoting, planning and implementing computer
based communications for serious Christian work. This group will include
theoretical aspects and analysis of communications needs for the Christian
community, discussion of how to benefit from online usage, and actual
implementation of new Christian online channels and services, such as
creating new listserves, World Wide Web pages, unifying BBS nets. We will
be encouraging unity through community, cooperation and service.
Assistance and encouragement will be given to Christian churches,
ministries, and organizations to seek out fellowship and strategic
alliances with each other. Expect the KIHM listserve to be a proactive
meeting hall that will go beyond discussion to uphold and assist the growth
of online pathways and services and the general communications
infrastructure in Canada for Christian service.
Although KIHM strongly upholds the Christian faith and does all work to the
glory of God, the listserve will not concentrate on doctrine or be a direct
channel of evangelism. However, discussions will include how cyberspace can
be used as an effective tool for reaching out to the world everywhere, in
love, in aid and in evangelism.
The moderator is Bill Mudry, of Mississauga, Ontario, who is also the
coordinator of the King's Information Highway Ministry (KIHM for short).
KIHM works at all levels (International, national <Canada>, community and
with local churches) to help usher the Christian community into wise and
beneficial use of online services as a tool and media. Over a year and a
half of intense thinktanking has gone into concepts and ideas to guide KIHM
before declaring its name. If you wish to view these concepts, they are
publically available on the Internet by FTP, gopher or WWW at:
bible.acu.edu/technology/kih
To join the KIHM listserve, send a message with no subject to:
kihm-request@bible.acu.edu
and put simple message in the body of:
subscribe
The listserve itself is kihm@bible.acu.edu
The listserve is not totally public. It is reserved for Christians by
chosen faith and to keep flaming to a low. Please expect to supply a few
words about yourself and a simple statement of faith. We heartily invite
serious enquiries from Christians coast to coast across Canada. You may also
be in touch with Mr. Mudry directly:
Internet: kihm@bible.acu
Nanet: Bill Mudry, (CRS conference 0)
Voice: (905) 858-3444
ASK ALSO ABOUT THE NEWLY FORMED INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY OF ONLINE CHRISTIANS!
------------------------------
From: Tim McLay <nstn1533@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 95 09:49:31 -0400
Subject: Another question on Aland
Realized this morning that I forgot my other question on Aland's text
yesterday. It isn't anything earth shattering but on p. 58 the Aland's
state that you can tell the overall character of a ms. from any fragment.
Is this something that other NT textual critics would agree with?
Tim McLay
--
Tim McLay
Halifax, NS
nstn1533@fox.nstn.ca
------------------------------
From: "David B. Gowler" <dgowler@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 09:39:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: End of Mark Possibilities
On Mon, 10 Jul 1995, Larry Swain wrote:
> I would like to respond to both Drs who have responded to Bruce Terry
> today. FIrst, you have seized on his suggestion of oral tradition and
> human memory as illogical and problematic, with just a flavor of
> derision. I would hope that you have not forgotten that the folks of the
> first and second centuries are PEOPLE which means that they not only make
> mistakes, but actually may know a little something about their world as
> well. And the debate on how viable their reportage is and oral
> traditions is still very much open if the plethora of articles and books
> of late is any indication whatever.
I'm sorry, but this does not accurately report or respond to what I
wrote. I was talking about rhetorical composition, not oral traditions,
and the importance of ideology -- both the authors' and ours. I was not
talking about "mistakes," although that is another important issue.
The fact that they are people and know a little bit about their world is
incontestable. But shouldn't we remember it was *their* world and attempt
to find out more clearly how they expressed their vision of the world?
That was my main point. Also, I was responding to the *issues raised*, the
ideas; it was not personal.
David
************************************
David B. Gowler
Associate Professor of Religion
Chowan College
Summer address (until Aug 11):
dgowler@minerva.cis.yale.edu
------------------------------
From: GAlanC@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 10:16:55 -0400
Subject: College Textbooks
This is certiantly not the subject of the list, but I have noticed that
several folks are college professors.
I have a friend who has been presented with the possibility of teaching OT/NT
survey class in a local community college. Can any of you suggest some good,
solid, conservative or moderate text books that he might use in the class.
Feel free to reply off list (that might even be best)
Thanks in advance.
Alan Cassady
Montgomery, AL
GAlanC@aol.com
------------------------------
From: "Larry W. Hurtado" <hurtado@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 10:27:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Another question on Aland
On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Tim McLay wrote:
> Realized this morning that I forgot my other question on Aland's text
> yesterday. It isn't anything earth shattering but on p. 58 the Aland's
> state that you can tell the overall character of a ms. from any fragment.
> Is this something that other NT textual critics would agree with?
> Tim McLay
I for one have qualms about this assertion of Aland, for it fails to take
account of "block-mixture" a well known phenomenon where a ms seems to
have been copied using more than one exemplar in its various portions.
In fact, you should check out the reviews of the Alands' book, esp. when
it appeared in English dress, for quite penetrating criticisms of
*various* claims and positions.
Larry Hurtado, Religion, Univ. Manitoba
------------------------------
From: "Larry W. Hurtado" <hurtado@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 10:46:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Ph.D. Programs in Textual Criticism, Again
On Sun, 9 Jul 1995, Nichael Lynn Cramer wrote:
> A month or so back, there was a brief discussion on this list about various
> programs available for study in (particularly NT) Textual Criticism.
>
> As a follow up, perhaps those who responded before (or anyone else, for
> that matter) would answer a related question on this topic: What
> qualifications and/or background --both at the level of specific course
> work and previous field(s) of study-- would you expect to see in a student
> who approached you as a candidate?
Our PhD program (at the Univ. of Manitoba) is new and so it may be
helpful to give some info on it.
- --It is a PhD in a "Religious Studies" type dept., so we expect some
breadth of acquaintance with more than one religious tradition, and
require an entering PhD student to take a "qualifying exam" in part to
demonstrate such knowledge (otherwise, extra course work).
- --Within the PhD program, one can concentrate on "New Testament and
Christian origins". And because of my interest in the subject, it is
possible to concentrate further on Textual criticism (e.g., in
dissertation research), were a student so inclined.
- --Entering students must have a thesis-based M.A. or equivalent from an
accredited university/college. (We have to work with Fac. of Grad.
Studies guidelines, which presently do not make it easy to recognize
seminary degrees, although we can sometimes make a case on an individual
basis, and can also admit a student initially to M.A.work and then
transfer the student later).
- --Because our course requirements for the PhD are fewer hours than most
U.S. programs (here the min. = 18 cr. hrs.), we expect entering students
to have all necessary languages and other preparations in year one, and
to "hit the ground running" hopefully producing publishable quality
papers in seminars. Such a student could expect to finish candidacy
exams within two years of entering and be on the way with dissertation
thereafter. For the NT & Christian Origins area, the min. languages
would = English (speaking, listening, writing all good), German & French
(reading), Koine Greek & Bib. Hebrew (reading).
Cheers. Larry Hurtado, Religion, Univ. of Manitoba
------------------------------
From: Pat Tiller <ptiller@husc.harvard.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 12:12:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Another question on Aland
On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Tim McLay wrote:
> Realized this morning that I forgot my other question on Aland's text
> yesterday. It isn't anything earth shattering but on p. 58 the Aland's
> state that you can tell the overall character of a ms. from any fragment.
> Is this something that other NT textual critics would agree with?
> Tim McLay
It is hard to imagine how one would be able to tell the "textual
character of the whole manuscript" by sampling one fragment of ms A
(Byzantine in the gospels and Alexandrian in the Epistles) or of ms W
(Alexandrian in Lk 1-8:12 and John; Caesarean in Mk 5-16; Western in Mark
1-5; Byzantine in Mt and Lk 8:12ff).
On the other hand if we possess only a fragment, it probably does not do
much harm to suppose that the rest of the ms probably was of the same
"textual character" as the extant fragment.
Pat Tiller
Harvard Divinity School
------------------------------
From: Pat Tiller <ptiller@husc.harvard.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 12:40:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Date of Last Supper (was Artos/Azymos)
On Mon, 10 Jul 1995, Carl W Conrad wrote:
> John appears to want to say that Jesus' death took place at the
> moment when the paschal lambs were being slaughtered at the Temple in
> Jerusalem, and if that were the case, then the last supper could not have
> been a passover--UNLESS (and here is what I would like some clarification
> about) the official calendar used was the lunar, but Jesus and disciples
> were celebrating the seder according to the solilunar calendar.
The synoptics seem to make the Last Supper a passover meal (Mk 14:12,16
and parallels). John makes it the day before the passover (18:28). One
solution would be that John is more interested in the character of Jesus
death as a paschal sacrifice and the synoptics are more interested in the
character of the Last Supper as a passover meal.
The calendrical solution supposes that Jesus (and the synoptic Gospels)
were using the Essene solar calendar while John's report follows the
lunar(-solar) (official) calendar. According to the solar calendar the
Passover always falls on Wednesday (i.e., beginning on Tues evening). If
the synoptics are using this calendar, then Jesus would have been arrested
Tues night and finally crucified Friday. John also has the crucifixion on
on Friday which (following the lunar calendar according to which the
passover might be on any day of the week) is also the day before the
passover. The main problem is that according to Mark 14:12, "they were
sacrificing the passover (lamb)" while Jesus' disciples were preparing the
last supper. It is extremely unlikely that the high priest would have
permitted a passover sacrifice three days before the official passover.
It is equally unlikely that such a sacrifice would have taken place
outside of the temple.
For a summary of the argument, see Joseph Fitzmyer, _The Dead Sea
Scrolls: Major Publications and Tools for Study_, pp 182-6.
Pat Tiller
Harvard Divinity School
------------------------------
From: Tim McLay <nstn1533@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 95 14:03:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Another question on Aland
Pat Tiller wrote:
Besides adding a comment I do have one other question.
>It is hard to imagine how one would be able to tell the "textual
>character of the whole manuscript" by sampling one fragment of ms A
>(Byzantine in the gospels and Alexandrian in the Epistles) . . .
Precisely.
>On the other hand if we possess only a fragment, it probably does not do
>much harm to suppose that the rest of the ms probably was of the same
>"textual character" as the extant fragment.
My concerns have to do with principles and methodology. Having
concentrated on Hebrew Bible and LXX the past few years (including
textual criticism) I was surprised to read such claims in the standard
intro for NT text criticism. Since I am going to devote some time in a NT
Greek course next year to textual criticism I thought that I'd like some
input. One more question: what are the thoughts
on the Alands rejection of the Caes text type and their proposed
classification of mss. into 5 categories. It seems to me to be quite
useful as a general guide.
Tim McLay
--
Tim McLay
Halifax, NS
nstn1533@fox.nstn.ca
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 12:24:29 -0500 (GMT-0500)
Subject: Re: Date of Last Supper (was Artos/Azymos)
On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Pat Tiller wrote:
>
> On Mon, 10 Jul 1995, Carl W Conrad wrote:
>
> > John appears to want to say that Jesus' death took place at the
> > moment when the paschal lambs were being slaughtered at the Temple in
> > Jerusalem, and if that were the case, then the last supper could not have
> > been a passover--UNLESS (and here is what I would like some clarification
> > about) the official calendar used was the lunar, but Jesus and disciples
> > were celebrating the seder according to the solilunar calendar.
>
> The synoptics seem to make the Last Supper a passover meal (Mk 14:12,16
> and parallels). John makes it the day before the passover (18:28). One
> solution would be that John is more interested in the character of Jesus
> death as a paschal sacrifice and the synoptics are more interested in the
> character of the Last Supper as a passover meal.
>
> The calendrical solution supposes that Jesus (and the synoptic Gospels)
> were using the Essene solar calendar while John's report follows the
> lunar(-solar) (official) calendar. According to the solar calendar the
> Passover always falls on Wednesday (i.e., beginning on Tues evening). If
> the synoptics are using this calendar, then Jesus would have been arrested
> Tues night and finally crucified Friday. John also has the crucifixion on
> on Friday which (following the lunar calendar according to which the
> passover might be on any day of the week) is also the day before the
> passover. The main problem is that according to Mark 14:12, "they were
> sacrificing the passover (lamb)" while Jesus' disciples were preparing the
> last supper. It is extremely unlikely that the high priest would have
> permitted a passover sacrifice three days before the official passover.
> It is equally unlikely that such a sacrifice would have taken place
> outside of the temple.
>
> For a summary of the argument, see Joseph Fitzmyer, _The Dead Sea
> Scrolls: Major Publications and Tools for Study_, pp 182-6.
I very much appreciate this clarification, Pat. It never seemed to me
that a calendrical explanation was really very likely, although it might
be plausible. I really think your other suggestion comes closer to what's
probable: that interpretative symbolism was a factor in assimilation of
the Last Supper to a passover seder, although historically it probably
was not, and that on this matter (as perhaps on some others too where
there is apparent conflict between John and the Synoptics) John may well
be closer to the historical truth.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: "David B. Gowler" <dgowler@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 14:23:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Validity of Ireneaus
On Mon, 10 Jul 1995, Greg Doudna wrote:
> On the matter of Jesus's age, Ireneaus reported a tradition
> that Jesus was over forty years old. Everyone *assumes* or
> "knows" Ireneaus was wrong on this, but on what grounds?
I won't dispute Greg's position, but I just want to ask a question:
Should we not *also* take into account Ireneaus's theology here?
Specifically the theory of "recapitulation," where Jesus "had" to pass
through every stage of humanity in order to make salvation available to
all people, young and old.
This does *not* refute the data of Jesus being "over forty," but it does
put this claim in a different perspective (or "frame of reference") and
cause us to look at it more closely.
And a request: Greg, could you post the specific passages (from
Irenaeus) whose content you mentioned? I'd like to look at them again.
Thanks,
David
************************************
David B. Gowler
Associate Professor of Religion
Chowan College
Summer address (until Aug 11):
dgowler@minerva.cis.yale.edu
------------------------------
From: "Gregory Jordan (ENG)" <jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 14:22:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Date of Last Supper
On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Pat Tiller wrote:
> The synoptics seem to make the Last Supper a passover meal (Mk 14:12,16
> and parallels). John makes it the day before the passover (18:28). One
Leave it my unmathematical self not to be able to see the problem clearly
(a friend of mine is still trying to get me to see that the 21st century
won't start until 2001 :)...
I don't see why John 13:1 pro de tEs heortEs tou paskha necessarily means
the *day* before, rather than just time before, or even if it meant day
before, that the Jewish days divided at nightfall, so that an evening
meal could be on a separate "day" from the daylight hours before.
To me, "kai deipnou ginomenou" in John 13:2 indicates a time shift from
the previous verse, which could refer to Jesus's preparation for their
Passover, as in the Synoptics.
Also, if the Last Supper were on the day before Passover, it doesn't seem
conceivable that the defilement of bodies left on crosses would have been
possible on the 1st day of Passover itself (since it would defile even a
Great Sabbath, according to John 19:31).
The desire of the high priests to stay clean to eat the Passover might
not necessarily indicate Passover hadn't started - it was a festival that
lasted more than one day and involved quite a bit of eating.
Knowing that I'm wrong and only expecting to be told why,...
Greg Jordan
jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu
------------------------------
From: Michael I Bushnell <mib@gnu.ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 15:52:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Validity of Ireneaus
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 14:23:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David B. Gowler" <dgowler@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
X-Sender: dgowler@minerva
Cc: b-greek@virginia.edu
On Mon, 10 Jul 1995, Greg Doudna wrote:
> On the matter of Jesus's age, Ireneaus reported a tradition
> that Jesus was over forty years old. Everyone *assumes* or
> "knows" Ireneaus was wrong on this, but on what grounds?
The best grounds is by examining the names Luke gives for the civil
players in Jesus' birth and death. We know the dates of their reigns
quite well, and that establishes pretty tight bounds for Jesus' life.
Michael
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:11:54 -0500 (GMT-0500)
Subject: Re: Date of Last Supper
On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Gregory Jordan (ENG) wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Pat Tiller wrote:
>
> > The synoptics seem to make the Last Supper a passover meal (Mk 14:12,16
> > and parallels). John makes it the day before the passover (18:28). One
>
> Leave it my unmathematical self not to be able to see the problem clearly
> (a friend of mine is still trying to get me to see that the 21st century
> won't start until 2001 :)...
>
> I don't see why John 13:1 pro de tEs heortEs tou paskha necessarily means
> the *day* before, rather than just time before, or even if it meant day
> before, that the Jewish days divided at nightfall, so that an evening
> meal could be on a separate "day" from the daylight hours before.
>
> To me, "kai deipnou ginomenou" in John 13:2 indicates a time shift from
> the previous verse, which could refer to Jesus's preparation for their
> Passover, as in the Synoptics.
>
> Also, if the Last Supper were on the day before Passover, it doesn't seem
> conceivable that the defilement of bodies left on crosses would have been
> possible on the 1st day of Passover itself (since it would defile even a
> Great Sabbath, according to John 19:31).
>
> The desire of the high priests to stay clean to eat the Passover might
> not necessarily indicate Passover hadn't started - it was a festival that
> lasted more than one day and involved quite a bit of eating.
>
> Knowing that I'm wrong and only expecting to be told why,...
Greg, I've been wrong so often lately that I'm fearful of being caught
again, but I think the key is not in the account of the last supper in
John but rather in the account of the crucifixion, at 19:31, where "the
Jews" request that the soldiers certify the death of the crucified
prisoners before sundown, "EPEI PARASKEUH HN, hINA MH MEINHi EPI TOU
STAUROU TA SWMATA EN TWi SABBATWi, HN GAR MEGALH hH hHMERA EKEINOU TOU
SABBATOU." This indicates that the crucifixion takes place on the eve of
the Passover, wherefore the last supper cannot have been a Passover. Am I
misreading the implications of this text?
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: Greg Doudna <gdoudna@ednet1.osl.or.gov>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 15:22:28 -0700
Subject: Re: Validity of Irenaeus
David Gowler wrote:
> I won't dispute Greg's position, but I just want to ask a
> question: Should we not *also* take into account Ireneaus's
> theology here? Specifically the theory of "recapitulation,"
> where Jesus "had" to pass through every stage of humanity
> in order to make salvation available to all people, young
> and old.
Of course, Jesus never made it to "old". But still, a good
point. As I recall when I looked at it closely, it seemed to
me that Ireneaus was drawing on several lines of argument in
order to refute a Valentinian (?) idea of a one-year ministry
of Jesus. One of the things Ireneaus draws upon to refute
this is this *tradition* which he probably got from one of
Papias's books about a 40-plus year old Jesus. The tradition
that Ireneaus reports, as it would have appeared in Papias,
would have had nothing to do with recapitulation. The way
Irenaeus quotes Luke, then John, then (presumably) this Papias
tradition, doesn't seem to be really harmonized well by
Irenaeaus, which argues that he's quoting something he himself
doesn't really know what to do with.
> And a request: Greg, could you post the specific passages
> (from Ireneaus) whose content you mentioned?
Could someone on the list who has an Irenaeus furnish the
reference? I am operating strictly from memory, and have no
Irenaeaus in my apartment. It is in the discussion on
Valentinians, as I recall.
Greg Doudna
West Linn, Oregon
- --
------------------------------
From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 95 10:37:59 PDT
Subject: Re: College Textbooks
> This is certiantly not the subject of the list, but I have noticed that
> several folks are college professors.
>
> I have a friend who has been presented with the possibility of teaching OT/NT
> survey class in a local community college. Can any of you suggest some good,
> solid, conservative or moderate text books that he might use in the class.
>
> Feel free to reply off list (that might even be best)
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Alan Cassady
> Montgomery, AL
> GAlanC@aol.com
>
Alan,
I would mention two that I think fit your categories:
Robert Gundry's Survey of the NT and
and a book with a similar name (which I can't think of at the moment
and don't have my GCB catalog with me) by Douglas Moo, et al.
I think both of those would be good choices under your criteria.
I'd also say don't use Kummel or Martin for this purpose.
Ken Litwak
Emeryville, CA
------------------------------
From: Greg Doudna <gdoudna@ednet1.osl.or.gov>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 15:44:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Validity of Irenaeus
Michael Bushnell wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jul 1995, Greg Doudna wrote:
>
> > On the matter of Jesus's age, Ireneaus reported a tradition
> > that Jesus was over forty years old. Everyone *assumes* or
> > "knows" Ireneaus was wrong on this, but on what grounds?
>
> The best grounds is by examining the names Luke gives for the
> civil players in Jesus' birth and death. We know the dates
> of their reigns quite well, and that establishes pretty
> tight bounds for Jesus' life.
But Michael, this is a non-sequitor. Let's just look at it.
Date of death: the only date information here is reign of Pilate,
which was 26-36 CE.
Date of birth: going by Matthew, this was during the time of
Herod the Great, which was 37-4 BCE.
So how does anything here conflict with a Jesus over 40 years
old at time of death? Think! How do you *know* Irenaeus's
tradition was wrong?
Greg Doudna
West Linn, Oregon
- --
------------------------------
From: Vincent DeCaen <decaen@epas.utoronto.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 20:33:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Porter on Grk aspect
re Porter's treatment of New Testament Greek verbal system (1989):
1) can anyone help me with bibliography? I'm looking for major book
reviews of Porter 1989.
2) is anyone else as shocked as I am that Greek does not
grammaticalize tense??? if someone wants to offer comment offlist, I'd
be interested in review/feedback on this work.
------------------------------
From: "Gregory Jordan (ENG)" <jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 20:37:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Date of Last Supper
On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Carl W Conrad wrote:
> Greg, I've been wrong so often lately that I'm fearful of being caught
> again, but I think the key is not in the account of the last supper in
> John but rather in the account of the crucifixion, at 19:31, where "the
> Jews" request that the soldiers certify the death of the crucified
> prisoners before sundown, "EPEI PARASKEUH HN, hINA MH MEINHi EPI TOU
> STAUROU TA SWMATA EN TWi SABBATWi, HN GAR MEGALH hH hHMERA EKEINOU TOU
> SABBATOU." This indicates that the crucifixion takes place on the eve of
> the Passover, wherefore the last supper cannot have been a Passover. Am I
> misreading the implications of this text?
I don't know, but here's my problem. If the Passover and Sabbath
coincided in John, then accordining to rabbinical law (I think), the
Sabbath was overruled by Passover. But John calls it a Great Sabbath,
that is, a sabbath that fell in Passover Week, but not necessarily on the
day of Passover itself (the first day). If preparation were merely for
the Passover sabbath, then John is in accord with Luke (23:54).
Here are additional considerations I noticed: Pilate offered to release
prisoners on the Passover (en to paskha John 18:39), and he offered to
release Jesus, therefore, mustn't Passover already have started during
the day of Jesus's trial? If so, it must have started the night before
(the Last Supper). The Pharisees were worried about being clean to eat
Passover food (John 18:28), but that doesn't mean they hadn't already
eaten some: they would have needed some of it, presumably, for Sabbath,
when no food could be prepared - thousands of lambs had been sacrificed,
and the priests needed to stay clean probably throughout the Passover
Week and on the sabbath. As a minor consideration, it seems unlikely the
high priests and Pilate would have had time for a trial on the day of
getting ready for Passover - and it would have been an unauspicious time
to pull a stunt like that, anyway. But *during* the Passover would have
been a good time - after the official duties were basically fulfilled and
while everyone was relaxing.
Greg Jordan
jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #779
*****************************
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
To unsubscribe from this list write
majordomo@virginia.edu
with "unsubscribe b-greek-digest" as your message content. For other
automated services write to the above address with the message content
"help".
For further information, you can write the owner of the list at
owner-b-greek@virginia.edu
You can send mail to the entire list via the address:
b-greek@virginia.edu