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b-greek-digest V1 #834
b-greek-digest Friday, 25 August 1995 Volume 01 : Number 834
In this issue:
The Living Pulpit (information)
2 Cor. 5:19
LXX & AP
Re: BG: Egyptian vs. Alexandrian text types
Re: Subject: 2 Cor. 5:19
Re: BG: Egyptian vs. Alexandrian text types
Re: 2 Cor. 5:19
Re: Subject: 2 Cor. 5:19
Word processing and Greek/Hebrew
Re: Word processing and Greek/Hebrew
Re: 2 Cor. 5:19
Re: Word processing and Greek/Hebrew
Subject: Re: 2 Cor. 5:19
Ant 18.22 question
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: PaulENY@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 03:01:35 -0400
Subject: The Living Pulpit (information)
I have some helpful information on a great not-for-profit ecumenical
Christian journal I found out about called The Living Pulpit.
The Living Pulpit was founded by David H.C. Read and Walter
J. Burghardt, S.J. Each issue explores one major theme,
such as Hope, Faith, Love, Evil, Justice, Earth, Prayer, Anger,
Jesus, Forgiving, Conflict, Community, Grace, Suffering, Life,
and so on.
If you would like to find out more about The Living Pulpit, send e-mail to
"LIVPULPIT@AOL.com" with your name and address and they will send you a
brochure.
I got a subscription to The Living Pulpit for my pastor as a gift to my
church and he has found it to be of value.
Faithfully,
Paul
------------------------------
From: Ron Stephens <clcc@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 23:14:13 -0700
Subject: 2 Cor. 5:19
Gentlemen:
I've been "lurking" here for while and have found your discussions fascinating.
I'm hoping you will help me resolve a dilemma with 2nd Corinthians 5:19.
While the question has to do with the English, I'm hoping that your
knowledge of Greek will reveal the answer. I've been challenged concerning
this verse, as to the intended meaning of the conjunction "in".
2Cor. 5:19 KJV "...God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself..."
2Cor. 5:19 NIV "...God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ..."
Was God IN (i.e. within) Christ, as the KJV punctuation implies, or was God
reconciling the world INn (by means of) Christ, as the NIV indicates.
I HAVE a position on this issue, but am hard pressed to prove it gramatically.
Thank you, in advance, for your comments.
In His service,
Pastor Ron Stephens / CLCC@pacifier.com
Crossroads LaCenter Calvary Chapel, LaCenter, WA
"Jesus is alive, Elvis isn't"
------------------------------
From: MIRKOVA1@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 12:15:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: LXX & AP
Let me pass a word of advice from James Barr. He recommended me to use the big
Liddell-Scott dictionary for LXX. I've been happy with it ever since. For
grammar and syntax I go to classical greek, for example, H.W.Smyth. There is a
unique tool for LXX published by the Univerisity of Athens, Greece: Greek to
Hebrew dictionary for LXX. It's out of print and just first volume was publishedThe authors are: B.Tsakonas, E.Oikonomou, and N.Papadopoulos.
Greetings!
Alexander Mirkovic, Vanderbilt University
------------------------------
From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 12:34:24 CST
Subject: Re: BG: Egyptian vs. Alexandrian text types
On Mon, 21 Aug 95, Vincent Broman wrote:
>terry@bible.acu.edu asked:
>> Surely this is not a revival of W&H's Neutral vs. Alexandrian distinction?
>
>Aland: Alexandrian Egyptian
>Metzger: early or proto-Alexandrian Alexandrian
>Hort: Neutral Alexandrian
>
>Plus or minus a few shades of connotation, these are all the same distinction.
>
>Hort seemed to portray the difference between them as being fairly
>large, with the Neutral almost midway between Alexandrian and "Western",
>but this was partly due to his Neutral text not being a tangible set
>of witnesses, (sci. Origen+01+B), but rather a hypothetical text lying behind
>these tangible witnesses.
>In any case the distinction just reflects the textual fact that
>Origen+01+B (+-D) fairly often agree against C+L+33 et al.
Thanks for the answer, Vincent, although it was not especially what I wanted
to hear. It seems to me that the above chart makes use of the term
Alexandrian ambiguous. Further, it would seem that the distinction between
Alexandrian and Egyptian is really a distinction between sub-families rather
than between text types.
********************************************************************************
Bruce Terry E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station Phone: 915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699 Fax: 915/674-3769
********************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: David Moore <dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 15:47:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Subject: 2 Cor. 5:19
Ron Stephens <clcc@pacifier.com> wrote:
>I've been "lurking" here for while and have found your discussions fascinating.
>
>I'm hoping you will help me resolve a dilemma with 2nd Corinthians 5:19.
>While the question has to do with the English, I'm hoping that your
>knowledge of Greek will reveal the answer. I've been challenged concerning
>this verse, as to the intended meaning of the conjunction "in".
>
>2Cor. 5:19 KJV "...God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself..."
>2Cor. 5:19 NIV "...God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ..."
>
>Was God IN (i.e. within) Christ, as the KJV punctuation implies, or was God
>reconciling the world INn (by means of) Christ, as the NIV indicates.
>
>I HAVE a position on this issue, but am hard pressed to prove it gramatically.
>
>Thank you, in advance, for your comments.
It's pretty difficult to be dogmatic on this one, Ron. Both the
context and the grammar could lend themselves to either of the above
interpretations.
It may be that Paul is here quoting a hymn or well-known saying.
The Greek word hOTI sometimes indicates a formal quote. In such a case,
Paul would be saying, "As the saying goes...." But be this as it may, it
doesn't offer much in the way of hints on how the saying is to be
interpreted.
As the KJV has translated it is probably the more natural way of
understanding the Greek since the verb HN (was) is closest to EN CRISTW
(in Christ) and so these two would naturally be considered in apposition.
But Greek is not so strongly guided by word order as is English, so, as
mentioned above, it is difficult to be dogmatic.
Hope this may be some help,
David L. Moore Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida of the Assemblies of God
dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Department of Education
------------------------------
From: Vincent Broman <broman@np.nosc.mil>
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 13:47:55 PDT
Subject: Re: BG: Egyptian vs. Alexandrian text types
terry@bible.acu.edu wrote:
> ...it would seem that the distinction between
> Alexandrian and Egyptian is really a distinction between sub-families rather
> than between text types.
Colwell tried to reconstruct an archetype, or at least a center of gravity,
for the Neutrals+Alexandrians in several chapters of Mark, and he more-or-less
gave up on it as impossible. He found these witnesses split up so often
and in so many different constellations of alliances, that he described
them as one "broad stream" from the papyri down to the miniscules,
and he attributed their resemblances not just to common descent but also
to common editorial policy.
Since the Alands deny text type status to the Westerns and Caesareans,
their perspective has reduced itself to a one-dimensional scale of
"Textwert", with NA26/27 at one end of the scale, and a Majority text
at the other end. So I wouldn't take the Aland classifications to refer
to text types, only price points.
Vincent Broman, code 544 Bayside Email: broman@nosc.mil
Naval Command Control and Ocean Surveillance Center, RDT&E Div.
San Diego, CA 92152-6147, USA Phone: +1 619 553 1641
------------------------------
From: "Edgar M. Krentz" <emkrentz@mcs.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 17:45:27 -0600
Subject: Re: 2 Cor. 5:19
Ron Stephens wrote:
>I'm hoping you will help me resolve a dilemma with 2nd Corinthians 5:19.
>While the question has to do with the English, I'm hoping that your
>knowledge of Greek will reveal the answer. I've been challenged concerning
>this verse, as to the intended meaning of the conjunction "in".
>
>2Cor. 5:19 KJV "...God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself..."
>2Cor. 5:19 NIV "...God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ..."
>
>Was God IN (i.e. within) Christ, as the KJV punctuation implies, or was God
>reconciling the world INn (by means of) Christ, as the NIV indicates.
Good question from the English text. The Greek text, translated in
literalist fashion, reads "God was in Christ world reconciling to himself."
The word order favors understanding "in Christ" as a dative of manner (= an
adverb) modifying "was ... reconciling." The KJV is impossible, since "was
... reconciling" is a relatively late grammatical formation to indicate an
on-going action (analagous to our English "was reconciling." In short, the
NIV is more accurate.
As you can easily see, I think the Greek is more clear than David Moore
suggests in his response to you. It will be interesting to read other
reactions
Hope this helps.
Edgar Krentz <emkrentz@mcs.com>
New Testament, Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
Voice: 312-753-0752; FAX: 312-753-0782
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 17:47:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Subject: 2 Cor. 5:19
At 2:47 PM 8/24/95, David Moore wrote:
>Ron Stephens <clcc@pacifier.com> wrote:
>
>>I've been "lurking" here for while and have found your discussions
>>fascinating.
>>
>>I'm hoping you will help me resolve a dilemma with 2nd Corinthians 5:19.
>>While the question has to do with the English, I'm hoping that your
>>knowledge of Greek will reveal the answer. I've been challenged concerning
>>this verse, as to the intended meaning of the conjunction "in".
>>
>>2Cor. 5:19 KJV "...God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself..."
>>2Cor. 5:19 NIV "...God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ..."
>>
>>Was God IN (i.e. within) Christ, as the KJV punctuation implies, or was God
>>reconciling the world INn (by means of) Christ, as the NIV indicates.
>>
>>I HAVE a position on this issue, but am hard pressed to prove it gramatically.
>>
>>Thank you, in advance, for your comments.
>
>
> It's pretty difficult to be dogmatic on this one, Ron. Both the
>context and the grammar could lend themselves to either of the above
>interpretations.
>
> It may be that Paul is here quoting a hymn or well-known saying.
>The Greek word hOTI sometimes indicates a formal quote. In such a case,
>Paul would be saying, "As the saying goes...." But be this as it may, it
>doesn't offer much in the way of hints on how the saying is to be
>interpreted.
>
> As the KJV has translated it is probably the more natural way of
>understanding the Greek since the verb HN (was) is closest to EN CRISTW
>(in Christ) and so these two would naturally be considered in apposition.
>But Greek is not so strongly guided by word order as is English, so, as
>mentioned above, it is difficult to be dogmatic.
I quite agree with David's statement that it's best not to be dogmatic
here. I would make two rather obvious observations that I have not checked
against either the commentaries or the concordance showing usage of such
phrases as EN XRISTWi. One is that the periphastic imperfect formed with
the participle is by no means uncommon in Koine, although I am not so sure
exactly how common it is in Paul. The combination of HN KATALLASSWN would
very neatly enclose its complements, EN XRISTWi and the object TON KOSMON,
in which case I would think that EN XRISTWi would best be taken as
instrumental, as is very common also in Koine. It does not seem to me that
this is one of those typical EN XRISTWi phrases that Paul uses to speak of
the corporate constituency of believers in union with Christ, although I
may be wrong about that also.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 16:58:00 PDT
Subject: Word processing and Greek/Hebrew
I wonder if someone can give me information on a relatively low-cost
way to be able to do word processing that includes Greek and Hebrew
script. I currently have DOS and Windows 3.1, and Wordperfect 6.0.
I have tried using the word processor in Hebrew Tools. It works okay,
but I seem unable to put in Hebrew vowel points or Greek accent marks.
I need something good enough to be able to turn in for doctoral research
papers, so the more bang for the buck, the better. I'd particularly
like to know of word processing software that would let me past a block
of text into a document smoothly. Thanks.
Ken Litwak
GTU
Bezerkley, CA
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:06:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Word processing and Greek/Hebrew
Ken Litwak wrote,
"I wonder if someone can give me information on a relatively low-cost
way to be able to do word processing that includes Greek and Hebrew
script. I currently have DOS and Windows 3.1, and Wordperfect 6.0.
I have tried using the word processor in Hebrew Tools. It works okay,
but I seem unable to put in Hebrew vowel points or Greek accent marks.
I need something good enough to be able to turn in for doctoral research
papers, so the more bang for the buck, the better. I'd particularly
like to know of word processing software that would let me past a block
of text into a document smoothly. Thanks."
Get a Mac. I first had a doctoral dissertation turned to me done on a Mac in
1985 with Greek and Hebrew words and phrases included. The best fonts are
from Linquist's Software for Laser printing, bubblejet, etc. I have now
produced three books on my Mac LC in camera ready copy. I am still trying to
help a colleague learn to do fonts on Windows. It has taken about three
months so far with limited results.
You might also ask bill Mounce.
Carlton Winbery
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:22:41 -0400
Subject: Re: 2 Cor. 5:19
Pastor Ron Stevens wrote,
"Gentlemen: [some might take issue with that word]
I've been "lurking" here for while and have found your discussions
fascinating.
I'm hoping you will help me resolve a dilemma with 2nd Corinthians 5:19.
While the question has to do with the English, I'm hoping that your
knowledge of Greek will reveal the answer. I've been challenged concerning
this verse, as to the intended meaning of the conjunction "in".
2Cor. 5:19 KJV "...God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself..."
2Cor. 5:19 NIV "...God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ..."
Was God IN (i.e. within) Christ, as the KJV punctuation implies, or was God
reconciling the world INn (by means of) Christ, as the NIV indicates.
I HAVE a position on this issue, but am hard pressed to prove it
gramatically.
Thank you, in advance, for your comments."
I realize that Carl Conrad and Ed Krentz have already answered this, but I'd
like to make some observations and duck.
I think Carl is right that the enclosure of EN CRISTWi KOSMON by the verb to
be and the participle with which it forms a periphrasis means that the
enclosed words modify the periphrastic construction. But is it instrumental?
That is not impossible but rare in NT Greek for this would be personal
agency which is more often expressed by the genitive case. Exceptions can be
found for eg. in Mt 12:24 (EN TWi BEELZEBOUL), Acts 17:31 (EN ANDRI), etc. I
would opt for the possibility of a dative of sphere, i.e., in the sphere of
Christ work on the cross. God was in Christ--on the cross. See Moultman,
The Crucified God or Donald Bailey, God Was in Christ.
Carlton Winbery
Fogleman Prof. NT & Greek
LA College, Pineville, LA
(318) 487-7241 Fax (318) 487-7425 off. or (318) 442-4996 home
Winbrow@aol.com or Winbery@andria.lacollege.edu
------------------------------
From: Timothy Bratton <bratton@acc.jc.edu>
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:00:14 -35900
Subject: Re: Word processing and Greek/Hebrew
On Thu, 24 Aug 1995, Kenneth Litwak wrote:
> I wonder if someone can give me information on a relatively low-cost
> way to be able to do word processing that includes Greek and Hebrew
> script. I currently have DOS and Windows 3.1, and Wordperfect 6.0.
> I have tried using the word processor in Hebrew Tools. It works okay,
> but I seem unable to put in Hebrew vowel points or Greek accent marks.
> I need something good enough to be able to turn in for doctoral research
> papers, so the more bang for the buck, the better. I'd particularly
> like to know of word processing software that would let me past a block
> of text into a document smoothly. Thanks.
>
> Ken Litwak
> GTU
> Bezerkley, CA
>
Dr. Timothy L. Bratton bratton@acc.jc.edu
Department of History/Pol. Science work: 1-701-252-3467, ext. 2022
6006 Jamestown College home: 1-701-252-8895
Jamestown, ND 58405 home phone/fax: 1-701-252-7507
If you don't mind the inconvenience of referring to a reference
table, you can print Hebrew and Greek characters directly from
WordPerfect. I have version 5.1+, but I imagine 6.0 is similar. If you
hit CTRL + V, you get into the WordPerfect character sets. Character set
8 is the Greek set, while Set 9 is the Hebrew font. For example, if you
wanted to type a capital delta in WP, the command sequence would be CTRL
+ V, 8, 8. An easier way to do this is to enter WordPerfect and retrieve
the file CHARACTR.DOC, edit it (don't erase the original!), and print out
the Greek and Hebrew sections for reference. Admittedly, it's a pain to
refer to this chart if you're trying to print out a lengthy passage, but
it works fine for short excerpts. The quality is exceedingly good on a
laser printer, but there are spacing problems with 9-pin dot-matrix
printers. You should have an instruction manual with WP 6.0 that
explains how to do this. WP even will put in breathing marks, although
then you have to combine the appropriate marks with backspace commands.
I'm sure a professional Greek/Hebrew software program would be
preferable, but this is a good "poor man's" solution. Let me know if
this works for you!
P.S. -- WordPerfect also sells Greek and Hebrew Language Modules, which
according to its documentation "includes screen fonts, keyboard drivers,
and printer fonts for both modern and classical [Hebrew and Greek]."
------------------------------
From: David Moore <dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 23:12:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Subject: Re: 2 Cor. 5:19
Subject: Re: 2 Cor. 5:19
"Edgar M. Krentz" <emkrentz@mcs.com> quoted and wrote:
>Ron Stephens wrote:
>
>>I'm hoping you will help me resolve a dilemma with 2nd Corinthians 5:19.
>>While the question has to do with the English, I'm hoping that your
>>knowledge of Greek will reveal the answer. I've been challenged concernin=
g
>>this verse, as to the intended meaning of the conjunction "in".
>>
>>2Cor. 5:19 KJV "...God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself.=
.."
>>2Cor. 5:19 NIV "...God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ..."
>>
>>Was God IN (i.e. within) Christ, as the KJV punctuation implies, or was G=
od
>>reconciling the world INn (by means of) Christ, as the NIV indicates.
>
>Good question from the English text. The Greek text, translated in
>literalist fashion, reads "God was in Christ world reconciling to himself.=
"
>The word order favors understanding "in Christ" as a dative of manner (=3D=
an
>adverb) modifying "was ... reconciling." The KJV is impossible, since "was
>... reconciling" is a relatively late grammatical formation to indicate an
>on-going action (analagous to our English "was reconciling." In short, the
>NIV is more accurate.
>
>As you can easily see, I think the Greek is more clear than David Moore
>suggests in his response to you. It will be interesting to read other
>reactions
=09To say that the KJV rendering of this verse is "impossible" goes a
little far, does'=92t it. The imperfect ofEIMI closely associated with a
locative use of the dative followed by a more remotely associated
participle is quite possible. See, for instance , Mk. 1:13 which tells us
that Jesus was in the desert forty days being tempted by Satan. Or see
Lk. 18:2 which tells us that, in a certain town, there was a judge that
neither feared God nor cared about men.=20
=09Other passages may be interpreted similarly. Mark 4:38; 10:32 and
Eph. 2:12 are all translated that way by the NIV. The interpretation of 2
Cor. 5:19 pretty much boils down to whether one takes EN XRISTWi as
locative or instrumental. The construction, imperfect of EIMI, dative,
participle is not common in Paul. (Otherwise, I only found it in Eph.
2:12.) There is, however, the construction, imperfect of EIMI, participle,
dative. See Gal. 1:22, "I was unknown by face...."=20
=09I still hold that neither the grammar nor the context of 2Cor.
5:19 provide material for a dogmatic decision on how it should be
translated.=20
David L. Moore Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida of the Assemblies of God
dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Department of Education
------------------------------
From: Greg Doudna <gdoudna@ednet1.osl.or.gov>
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 21:56:24 -0700
Subject: Ant 18.22 question
Could someone assist with the following sentence from Josephus,
Ant. 18.22?
"zwsi de ouden parHllagmenws all' hoti malista em[ph]erontes
dakwn tois pleistois"
(The line closes Josephus's famous description of the Essenes.
Feldman's Loeb ed. rendering is: "Their manner of life does
not differ at all from that of the so-called Ctistae among
the Dacians, but is as close to it as could be" [with an
emendation of *pleistois* to *ktistais*].)
I can see that parHllagmenws is an adverb modifying *zwsi*, "they
live", from parallassw, "make things alternate, transpire"; the
Middle Liddel gives a stem of parHllag- for both perfect
and second aorist. From this stem it looks like an adverb has
been formed from a middle participle (?). The sense then
becomes something like "They live alternating in nothing but..."?
empherontes seems to be a m pl middle ptcpl "being borne about".
But I am having difficulty understanding the synactic connection
with the folowing m pl genitive "dakwn".
I would be very grateful if someone could explain the syntax of
this sentence. (The reason for interest is the old suggestion
of Dupont-Sommer to emend *dakwn* to *[za]douk[ai]wn*
"Sadducees of the 'Many'".) Thanks very much!
Greg Doudna
gdoudna@ednet1.osl.or.gov
- --
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #834
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