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b-greek-digest V1 #836
b-greek-digest Saturday, 26 August 1995 Volume 01 : Number 836
In this issue:
BG: Call for articles
NotaBene information
Re: translation of "melle"
FAQ on NT greek grammars and dictionaries: woops, correct URLs
Re: translation of "melle"
Re: translation of "melle"
NotaBene information
Re: translation of "melle"
NotaBene information
Re: translation of "melle"
Word Processing Fonts
Re: Word Processing Fonts
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 14:23:55 CST
Subject: BG: Call for articles
Yesterday I spoke on the phone to Robert Longacre, editor of the Journal of
Translation and Textlinguistics. He is looking for some quality articles in
the fields of Bible translation, discourse analysis/textlinguistics, and
related areas of Biblical studies.
Manuscripts may be sent to Robert E. Longacre, editor
Journal of Translation and Textlinguistics
7500 W. Camp Wisdom Road
Dallas, Texas 75236
Write the same address for a JOTT style sheet.
********************************************************************************
Bruce Terry E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station Phone: 915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699 Fax: 915/674-3769
********************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: "Paul A. Miller" <pmiller@gramcord.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 00:26:40 -0700
Subject: NotaBene information
As a long time NotaBene user it was interesting to see several testimonial
endorsements in B-Greek. NotaBene may not be appropriate for everyone but
the bibliographic capabilities alone make the program an excellent choice
(as I have often heard from other NotaBene users).
For those that are interested in acquiring this multilingual wordprocessor,
the publisher of NotaBene has announced some new bundle prices for academic
users. Feel free to contact me for more information.
*************************************************************
Prof. Paul A. Miller (Email: pmiller@GRAMCORD.org)
The GRAMCORD Institute
2218 NE Brookview Dr., Vancouver, WA 98686, U.S.A.
Voice (360)576-3000; FAX (503)761-0626
Computer-Assisted Biblical Language Research (IBM & MAC)
*************************************************************
------------------------------
From: Alan M Feuerbacher <alanf@mdhost.cse.tek.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 13:16:50 PDT
Subject: Re: translation of "melle"
Carlton Winbery said,
>The fact that it is in the subjunctive gives a note of contingency, but I
>think that this is because it is in a question where the exact time is in
>dispute or unknown. I think the best translation in Mark 13:4 in the
>subjunctive and with the infinitive is, "what is the sign when all these
>things will happen."
To me, that's a very fuzzy statement. Do you think that the purpose was
to be fuzzy?
>In verse 4 of Mark both instances of TAUTA seem to
>refer to the same events, what Jesus has just predicted. Its amazing what
>the writer of Matthew has done with that question!
Would you care to expand on that?
Alan Feuerbacher
alanf@mdhost.cse.tek.com
------------------------------
From: Vincent Broman <broman@np.nosc.mil>
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 13:42:52 PDT
Subject: FAQ on NT greek grammars and dictionaries: woops, correct URLs
ftp://archimedes.nosc.mil/pub/gnt/b-greek-FAQ-lexicon-grammar
& http://archimedes.nosc.mil/gnt/b-greek-FAQ-lexicon-grammar
Vincent Broman, code 786 Bayside Email: broman@nosc.mil
Naval Command Control and Ocean Surveillance Center, RDT&E Div.
San Diego, CA 92152-6147, USA Phone: +1 619 553 1641
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 16:56:31 -0400
Subject: Re: translation of "melle"
Alan Feuerbacher asked concerning my translation,
"what is the sign when all these
things will happen."
"To me, that's a very fuzzy statement. Do you think that the purpose was to
be fuzzy?"
All language is kind of fuzzy I think. But what I see in the statement is
"how can we know when these things are about to happen?"
>In verse 4 of Mark both instances of TAUTA seem to
>refer to the same events, what Jesus has just predicted. Its amazing what
>the writer of Matthew has done with that question!
"Would you care to expand on that?"
I would comment that in Mark the question seems to focus only on what Jesus
has just predicted, but Matthew brings in another subject, POTE TAUTA ESTAI
KAI TI TO SHMEION THS SHS PAROUSIAS KAI SUNTELEIAS TOU AIWNOS; "When shall
these things be and what (is) the sign of your coming and the consumation of
the age?"
You could read the question in Mark as having nothing to do with eschatology
but not Matthew 24:3.
Carlton Winbery
------------------------------
From: Alan M Feuerbacher <alanf@mdhost.cse.tek.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 14:23:25 PDT
Subject: Re: translation of "melle"
Carlton Winbery wrote, concerning Mark 13:4,
>All language is kind of fuzzy I think. But what I see in the statement is
>"how can we know when these things are about to happen?"
I see. That's about what I thought.
On Matthew 24:3:
>"Would you care to expand on that?"
>
>I would comment that in Mark the question seems to focus only on what Jesus
>has just predicted, but Matthew brings in another subject, POTE TAUTA ESTAI
>KAI TI TO SHMEION THS SHS PAROUSIAS KAI SUNTELEIAS TOU AIWNOS; "When shall
>these things be and what (is) the sign of your coming and the consumation of
>the age?"
>
>You could read the question in Mark as having nothing to do with eschatology
>but not Matthew 24:3.
Then, assuming that the three gospel accounts are just different versions
of the same events, Matthew 24:3 would be an expansion upon Mark 13:4, right?
Here is a related question about Matthew 24:3, concerning the proper
translation of "parousia". Most translations render "parousia" as
"coming" but a small number as "presence". What's the story?
Alan Feuerbacher
alanf@mdhost.cse.tek.com
------------------------------
From: "Paul A. Miller" <pmiller@gramcord.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 02:14:44 -0700
Subject: NotaBene information
As a long time NotaBene user it was interesting to see several testimonial
endorsements in B-Greek. NotaBene may not be appropriate for everyone but
the bibliographic capabilities alone make the program an excellent choice
(as I have often heard from other NotaBene users).
For those that are interested in acquiring this multilingual wordprocessor,
the publisher of NotaBene has announced some new bundle prices for academic
users. Feel free to contact me for more information.
*************************************************************
Prof. Paul A. Miller (Email: pmiller@GRAMCORD.org)
The GRAMCORD Institute
2218 NE Brookview Dr., Vancouver, WA 98686, U.S.A.
Voice (360)576-3000; FAX (503)761-0626
Computer-Assisted Biblical Language Research (IBM & MAC)
*************************************************************
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 18:16:47 -0400
Subject: Re: translation of "melle"
Alan Feuerbacher wrote,
"Then, assuming that the three gospel accounts are just different versions of
the same events, Matthew 24:3 would be an expansion upon Mark 13:4, right?"
For those who work with the two document hypothesis, yes.
Alan also wrote,
"Here is a related question about Matthew 24:3, concerning the proper
translation of "parousia". Most translations render "parousia" as "coming"
but a small number as "presence". What's the story?"
The word actually comes from the compound word PAREIMI. The word PAROUSIA is
the feminine participle of that verb. It could be argued that the word
simply means "to be present." But most lexicons (including Moulton & Gedden)
give evidence that it came to mean "arrival." Of course in Christian
theology, it became a technical term for the "second coming," though it is
never modified to my knowledge in the NT with the word "second."
Carlton L. Winbery
LA College, Pineville, LA
------------------------------
From: "Paul A. Miller" <pmiller@gramcord.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 02:56:15 -0700
Subject: NotaBene information
As a long time NotaBene user it was interesting to see several testimonial
endorsements in B-Greek. NotaBene may not be appropriate for everyone but
the bibliographic capabilities alone make the program an excellent choice
(as I have often heard from other NotaBene users).
For those that are interested in acquiring this multilingual wordprocessor,
the publisher of NotaBene has announced some new bundle prices for academic
users. Feel free to contact me for more information.
*************************************************************
Prof. Paul A. Miller (Email: pmiller@GRAMCORD.org)
The GRAMCORD Institute
2218 NE Brookview Dr., Vancouver, WA 98686, U.S.A.
Voice (360)576-3000; FAX (503)761-0626
Computer-Assisted Biblical Language Research (IBM & MAC)
*************************************************************
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 19:30:40 -0500
Subject: Re: translation of "melle"
At 3:16 PM 8/25/95, Alan M Feuerbacher wrote:
>Carlton Winbery said,
>
>>The fact that it is in the subjunctive gives a note of contingency, but I
>>think that this is because it is in a question where the exact time is in
>>dispute or unknown. I think the best translation in Mark 13:4 in the
>>subjunctive and with the infinitive is, "what is the sign when all these
>>things will happen."
>
>To me, that's a very fuzzy statement. Do you think that the purpose was
>to be fuzzy?
>
>>In verse 4 of Mark both instances of TAUTA seem to
>>refer to the same events, what Jesus has just predicted. Its amazing what
>>the writer of Matthew has done with that question!
>
>Would you care to expand on that?
Perhaps I can take Carlton off the hook and impale myself, if so it must
needs be (hoist on his own petard!).
(1) In the first place, let me say a little about MELLHi, the subjunctive
of MELLEI found in 13:4. Carlton was not trying to be cute or suggest
vagueness in offering "fixing to" as an equivalent of the verb here. The
fact is that from a classical Greek sense of MELLW as "intend" (closely
related to a common expression MELEI (single lambda) MOI TAUTA
PRATTEIN--which would be translated with pedantic literalness as "there is
a concern to me to do these things"), there has arisen already in the
classical period a common usage of MELLW with a future infinitive as a
practical equivalent to the future indicative:
MELLW TAUTA PRAXEIN = PRAXW TAUTA
The English future appears to have arisen in a very similar manner from the
use of SHALL as an auxiliary verb (although now we have come to use WILL in
every person and number).
To get back to the point, by the NT period, MELLEI, MELLOUSI(N) are used
quite regularly as auxiliaries with a present infinitive to form a
periphrastic future tense. There is thus no difference (I challenge anyone
to show me a difference) between hOTAN MELLHI TAUTA SUNTELEISQAI PANTA and
hOTAN TAUTA SUNTELHTAI PANTA or,to take it out of the subjunctive, between
TAUTA MELLEI SUNTELEISQAI PANTA and TAUTA SUNTELEQHSETAI PANTA.
(2) I don't quite agree with Carlton about the two instances of TAUTA in
Mark 13:4. Although the syntax of the Greek certainly permits the
interpretation that the TAUTA of POTE TAUTA ESTAI and the TAUTA of hOTAN
MELLHi TAUTA SUNTELEISQAI PANTA both refer to the same event(s), I
personally believe that in Mark's text the first TAUTA and the first
question refer more strictly to the time when the temple will be destroyed
as Jesus has predicted in 13:2, immediately upon his exit from the temple
with the disciples and prior to their ascent onto the Mt of Olives--and
that the second TAUTA and the second clause, which is in the subjunctive
because it depends upon an elliptical question which I would fill out thus:
TI (ESTAI) TO SHMEION ... There are, it seems to me, two distinct
questions: the first is when the destruction of the temple is to take
place; the second regards the tell-tale sign that the eschatological drama
is coming to its conclusion.
Now I don't want to be dogmatic here, but I side with those interpreters of
Mark's gospel who understand it as urgently apocalyptic, as datable to some
time very close to the actual end of the Jewish War in the destruction of
Jerusalem and the Temple, and as counseling the church of the evangelist's
community to the mission and mode of discipleship confronting it in the
short interim between the destruction of Jerusalem and temple and the
Parousia. Reading the gospel this way, I think that the two questions thus
concern, (1) the downfall of the temple, in accordance with the prophecy of
Jesus just uttered, and (2) the eschatological time-table or "sign(s)" of
the Parousia. That's why I think that PANTA is added in the second
question; the destruction of the temple may be included in the larger
sequence of the TAUTA referred to in the second question. Putting it
another way, I think I see the disciples' question as one question with a
follow-up: (1) when will that be? and (2) how are we to know when all that
is going to come to fulfilment?
(3) Compare Mt 24:3, EIPE hHMIN, POTE TAUTA ESTAI KAI TI TO SHMEION THS SHS
PAROUSIAS KAI SUNTELEIAS TOU AIWNOS. Here again let me preface by saying
that I side with those who believe that Matthew writes later than Mark and
that he has redacted Mark's text. I think that Matthew has understood quite
well what Mark meant in his somewhat less lucid formulation, and that he
has sharpened the sense of what Mark wrote in a way that suggests that
perhaps the interval between the destruction of the temple and the time of
the Parousia is not so short as Mark seems (to me, at least) to be
suggesting. Matthew also, as can be readily seen, writes better Greek by
putting the hOTAN + subjunctive clause into a noun phrase using the same
verbal root of SUNTELEW but pointing unmistakably to the final close of
this world-age. Matthew also, it may be noted, avoids that "pesky"
auxiliary verb MELLEI, about which this whole discussion started.
Now for some reason or other, the last time that Carlton and I were in
accord (more or less) on a subject, that being the commendability of the
Macintosh) we were quickly chastised as "Macintosh fanatics" (albeit with a
<g>). I hope we may escape the more searing flames this time, but the chips
will have to fall as they may. What was sought in the first place was "some
scholarly opinion" about the use of MELLHi. It's time for someone else to
declare an opinion.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: David Housholder <73423.2015@compuserve.com>
Date: 25 Aug 95 22:00:36 EDT
Subject: Word Processing Fonts
Kenneth Litwak asked about using Greek and Hebrew fonts in word processing
documents.
Don't be frightened by the Mac fanatics <g>, using True Type fonts with Windows
is very easy. My suggestion for the best set of Greek and Hebrew (and Coptic)
fonts, with all pointings, accents, and breathings supported and easily added
(AND with the Hebrew right to left) is WinGreek.
I can't immediately tell you where to find it, but it is shareware. Version 1.6
is available in the Bible Reference section of the Ministry Outreach Forum
library under the Christian Interactive Network on CompuServe. It is very likely
available on America Online as well. There are ftp sites that have it. The
current version is 1.9.
If you can't find it, contact Peter J. Gentry, 55 Amberecroft Blvd, Scarborough,
Ontario M1W 2Z6. The registration fee is $35.
David Housholder (DavidHousholder@xc.org)
writing at 12:58 PM on Friday, August 25, 1995
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 23:09:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Word Processing Fonts
73423.2015
"Don't be frightened by the Mac fanatics <g>, using True Type fonts with
Windows is very easy."
When someone asks for help, I try and give it.
Carlton Winbery
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #836
*****************************
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