[Prev][Next][Index][Thread]
b-greek-digest V1 #864
b-greek-digest Tuesday, 19 September 1995 Volume 01 : Number 864
In this issue:
Let the Women be silent
Re: Let the Women be silent
Re: Let the Women be silent
Re: Let the Women be silent
Re: Style analysis
1 Cor 14:34-35
1 Cor 14:34-35
UMEIN
Re: 1 Cor 14:34-35
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DDDJ@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:43:32 -0400
Subject: Let the Women be silent
<<Paul uses two different statistically-significant styles in 1 Corinthians
in
responding to the Corinthians' letter and in reacting to oral reports about
them which he had received. In addition, there was a statistically-
significant shift in style between the bulk of the letter and the peak
(12-15),>>
Bruce would your style research support or detract from my concept that the
phrase "Let the women be silent in the Churches" is a quote from the letter
Paul received THAT HE DISAGREES WITH?
Positive Dennis
------------------------------
From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:42:26 CST
Subject: Re: Let the Women be silent
On Mon, 18 Sep 1995, Dennis <DDDJ@aol.com> wrote:
>Bruce would your style research support or detract from my concept that the
>phrase "Let the women be silent in the Churches" is a quote from the letter
>Paul received THAT HE DISAGREES WITH?
Dennis--
On the positive side of your question, this statement is within one of the
sections that is in response to the Corinthians letter, apparently to a
question about spiritual gifts.
On the negative side, however, I don't know of anyone who has suggested that
this clause is a quote from the Corinthians' letter. I give one possible
reconstruction of that letter on pp. 19-20 of my book. I believe it is Hurd
(1983) _The origin of 1 Corinthians_ who surveys all the suggested quotes and
I don't remember than one being one.
I personally doubt it is a quote from their letter because it is not
introduced nor answered like the other suggested quotes.
Further, as I point out on p. 112 of my book, the section 33b-36 forms a
conceptual chiasmus:
A 33b as in all the churches of the saints
B 34a let the women keep silent in the churches
C 34b let them be subordinate
C' 35a let them ask their husbands at home
B' 35b it is shameful for a woman to speak in church
A' 36 did the word of God come from you, or arrive to you alone?
A quote from the letter doesn't fit well in this structure.
I fear this was not the answer you wanted.
- --Bruce
********************************************************************************
Bruce Terry E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station Phone: 915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699 Fax: 915/674-3769
********************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: BROWNFIELD/MARTIN <mpbrownf@fedex.com>
Date: Mon 18 Sep 1995 12:47 CT
Subject: Re: Let the Women be silent
On Mon, 18 Sep 1995, Bruce Terry wrote (concerning 1 Cor. 14:33b-36):
> Further, as I point out on p. 112 of my book, the section 33b-36 forms a
> conceptual chiasmus:
> A 33b as in all the churches of the saints
> B 34a let the women keep silent in the churches
> C 34b let them be subordinate
> C' 35a let them ask their husbands at home
> B' 35b it is shameful for a woman to speak in church
> A' 36 did the word of God come from you, or arrive to you alone?
>
> A quote from the letter doesn't fit well in this structure.
I take it then that you consider verse 33b to be taken with what
follows (with RSV and NIV), rather than with verse 33a (following
the verse divisions and some modern commentators). I have heard the
argument that since some MSS (D F G and some latin texts) place
vv. 34-35 after verse 40 but do NOT take verse 33b with them that
that argues for interpreting v. 33b with v. 33a.
I think it makes more sense the way you present it above, but does
the textual evidence on vv. 34f have any bearing on this?
Marty Brownfield
mpbrownf@fedex.com
------------------------------
From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 11:05:34 PDT
Subject: Re: Let the Women be silent
Bruce Terry wrote:
> On the positive side of your question, this statement is within one of the
> sections that is in response to the Corinthians letter, apparently to a
> question about spiritual gifts.
>
f> On the negative side, however, I don't know of anyone who has suggested that
> this clause is a quote from the Corinthians' letter. I give one possible
> reconstruction of that letter on pp. 19-20 of my book. I believe it is Hurd
> (1983) _The origin of 1 Corinthians_ who surveys all the suggested quotes and
> I don't remember than one being one.
>
> I personally doubt it is a quote from their letter because it is not
> introduced nor answered like the other suggested quotes.
>
> Further, as I point out on p. 112 of my book, the section 33b-36 forms a
> conceptual chiasmus:
> A 33b as in all the churches of the saints
> B 34a let the women keep silent in the churches
> C 34b let them be subordinate
> C' 35a let them ask their husbands at home
> B' 35b it is shameful for a woman to speak in church
> A' 36 did the word of God come from you, or arrive to you alone?
I find this chiastic structure interesting from the perspective that
some, without MS evidence, have argued that 14:34 is an interpolation.
Your analysis would seem to show the verse to be more integral -- no
less problematic -- but clearly integral. Then again, I want to argue
that 1 Cor 11:2-4, at least, is a quote of the Corinthians, since
I'm convinced Paul is arguing for the very opposite of what he is
accused of teaching here.
Ken Litwak
GTU
Bezerkley, CA
------------------------------
From: Mark O'Brien <Mark_O'Brien@dts.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 12:43:54 CST
Subject: Re: Style analysis
Original message sent on Sun, Sep 17 1:11 PM by terry@bible.acu.edu (Bruce
Terry) :
>On Wed, 13 Sep 95, Mark O'Brien responded to my post that in evaluating style
>a major consideration must be the type of text (narrative, expository,
>hortatory, persuasive, procedural):
>>This is, of course, a good point. Would you expect a particular author to be
>>consistent within each of these types? For example, if Paul writes some
>>expository material in Galatians, would you expect his style to remain
>>reasonably (whatever that means!) consistent if he did the same thing in
>>Romans? Similarly, would you expect Luke's narrative style in his gospel to be
>>necessarily consistent with his narrative style in Acts?
>The answer to all three questions is no.
I guess that part of the problem in dealing with style in the NT is just the
small amount of data to work with, but this would appear to make any kind of
style analysis very tenuous indeed.
Mark O'Brien
------------------------------
From: Edward Hobbs <EHOBBS@wellesley.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:57:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 1 Cor 14:34-35
Marty Brownfield has raised a telling point, not only about the chiasmus
issue re: 14:33b-36, but about the authenticity of these verses.
One common signal of a gloss is a "movable text"--one which is
found in more than one place in the text. (John 7:53--8:11 is the locus
classicus.) It is not proof, of course, but what begins as a gloss
sometimes is inserted into the text itself by scribes who see it in
the margin, at places different from each other. This is only one of
a number of reasons which lead many scholars today to regard 14:34-35 as
a gloss, not by Paul. Conzelmann's commentary states the case briefly,
but by now a very high percentage of NT scholars in major universities
agree with him. (I don't want to argue the case here; we went through
this several years ago, and I read far too many student papers on the topic
as it is.)
The passage sounds like the Pastor, as many point out -- and to
me it also sounds like Polycarp, which may be one more reason to think
that Hans Freiherr von Campenhausen was right when he guessed that the
Pastor in fact WAS Polycarp!
As for the question as to whether this was a view of the
Corinthians: This view has been often expressed (even, in a perverse
way, as long ago as Lietzmann), though not often in print. One of my\students at Harvard, over a decade ago, presented a paper to the SBL arguing this
very position on the "Taceat" passage. I thought it was a good paper, though
it didn't convince me. Sorry that I can't remember this name (after close
to a half-century of teaching, I hope I may be forgiven for forgetting
some of their names).
Edward Hobbs
------------------------------
From: Mikeal Parsons <PARSONSM@baylor.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:31:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: 1 Cor 14:34-35
elizabeth barrett montgomery reflected the view that 1 cor 14:34-35 is
a corinthian slogan which paul refutes in v. 36 in her translation of the
New Testament. she possibly had sources for this view; the story is
documented in an article in Perspectives in Religious studies by Sharyn
Dowd a couple of years ago ( i can get the bib info if anyone is interested).
charles talbert cautiously adopts the corinthian slogan explanation in
his commentary, reading corinthians (p. 93) after surveying several options
(including the interpolation theory).
cheers,
mikeal parsons
------------------------------
From: Michael Holmes <holmic@homer.acs.bethel.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 17:31:37 CST
Subject: UMEIN
- ----- Forwarded message begins here -----
Eric Weiss <eweiss@acf.dhhs.gov> asked:
>On the cover of Philip Comfort's book on the original text of the New
>Testament (green paperback) is a photograph of a manuscript I've identified
>as Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians. The back of the book only tells where
>the manuscript is housed, with no other information given. I've noticed 2
anomalies about the manuscript:
...
>2. The "UMIN" in 1:2 is spelled "UMEIN." I don't have the book in
>front of me, but I believe that's the verse.
>Does anyone know which manuscript this is? My N-A doesn't list the variant
>spelling "UMEIN" for any manuscript here. Is this an acceptable alternative
>spelling of "UMIN" or did the copyist just misspell it?
The manuscript is p46 (a leaf of the portion housed at the U. of Michigan;
the rest is at the Chester Beatty library in Dublin).
Re the spelling variation (itacism), see the Greek grammar by F. T.
Gignac, vol. 1 on morphology. He documents thoroughly the various letter
and letter combinations that are interchanged in the papyri, etc. This
particular one is quite frequent.
------------------------------
From: Stephen Carlson <scc@reston.icl.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 23:43:56 EDT
Subject: Re: 1 Cor 14:34-35
Edward Hobbs wrote:
> The passage sounds like the Pastor, as many point out -- and to
> me it also sounds like Polycarp, which may be one more reason to think
> that Hans Freiherr von Campenhausen was right when he guessed that the
> Pastor in fact WAS Polycarp!
This is a claim I'd like to follow up on in connection with my stylo-
statistical work. Can anybody here direct me to an electronic copy
of Polycarp's epistle, preferably tagged, available via ftp, gopher,
or through the Web? BTW, similar staring points to Papias would also
be appreciated considering his connections to Johannine literature.
See, e.g., Old Latin Prologue to John: "Papias . . . descripsit vero
evangelium dictante Johanne recte."
Stephen Carlson
- --
Stephen Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations, : ICL, Inc.
scc@reston.icl.com : and songs chant the words. : 11490 Commerce Park Dr.
(703) 648-3330 : Shujing 2:35 : Reston, VA 22091 USA
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #864
*****************************
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
To unsubscribe from this list write
majordomo@virginia.edu
with "unsubscribe b-greek-digest" as your message content. For other
automated services write to the above address with the message content
"help".
For further information, you can write the owner of the list at
owner-b-greek@virginia.edu
You can send mail to the entire list via the address:
b-greek@virginia.edu