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b-greek-digest V1 #904
b-greek-digest Wednesday, 11 October 1995 Volume 01 : Number 904
In this issue:
Re: Beginning Grammars
Classicist-Christian
Re: 1 Cor. 1:5-7
Re: 1 Cor. 1:5-7
books offered
Bible Education Sites on the Web?
Re: 1 Cor. 1:5-7
Classical PC/Mac support
Needed: a source for Hatch and Redpath
Janet Dove
Re: Classical PC/Mac support
RE: Greek-Hebrew Bible Software
Summary Re: Books on the Synoptic Problem
Re: NA27 apparatus perplexity
Off topic question
online studies
Re: Janet Dove
Re: NA27 apparatus perplexity
Re: 1Cor. 14:14
Re: Ray Summers' ENT
Re: 1 Cor. 1:5-7
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Alan D. Bulley" <s458507@aix1.uottawa.ca>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:12:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Beginning Grammars
Just out of curiosity, is the introductory Greek text by Eugene Van Ness
Goetchius (hope I spelled that correctly, it's been a while) still in
use? Between the textbook and the accompanying workbook, I found VNG's
morpheme-based approach quite quite easy to follow.
Anyone else?
Alan D. Bulley
Faculty of Theology/Faculte de theologie |s458507@aix1.uottawa.ca
Saint Paul University/Universite St-Paul |abulley@spu.stpaul.uottawa.ca
Ottawa, Canada
Fax: (613) 782-3005
------------------------------
From: BBezdek@aol.com
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:16:58 -0400
Subject: Classicist-Christian
A man of this century who had far greater depth and range of expression than
contemporary theologians, whose classical and Biblical studies led him from
atheism to being one of the most influential thinkers of this century; and
although he worshiped in the Anglican tradition, he did not defend or
disparage--but openly continued to move toward an ever growing and more
complete understanding and practice of God's word. That man is C.S. Lewis.
May we all be so moved.
Byron T. Bezdek
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 08:16:51 -0500
Subject: Re: 1 Cor. 1:5-7
At 4:51 AM 10/11/95, J.D.F.=van=Halsema%BW_KG%TheoFilos@esau.th.vu.nl wrote:
>Re.: 1 Cor. 1:5-7
>
>I would like to make another suggestion as regards the content and function
>of this passage.
>In this thanksgiving Paul probably is giving a kind of 'Table of contents' of
>1 Cor. as a whole. In other words: it has a clear rhetorical function of
>preparing the readers of what follows.
>- logos: 1 Cor. 1-4
>- gnosis: 1 Cor. 8
>- charisma 1 Cor. 12-14
>- apokalypsis 1 Cor. 15
>To be saying that this passage has an ironical mood is a bit premature, I
>think. Paul refers here to what he has given the audience during the founding
>[?] visit: true knowledge etc of the true God, mediated by a true apostle (1
>Cor. 1:1). (But: do they still adhere to this true message, do they still
>hold Paul as a true apostle? That remains to be seen...)
I think that this is a very reasonable view of the passage. I must say that
when I said I think that 1 Cor 1:5-7 should be understood as ironic, I had
no idea that anyone had ever suggested it before (although I SHOULD suppose
that all sorts of people have said all sorts of things about Paul!). David
Moore has responded at length to that suggestion and raised a number of
points with which I would not disagree, although I still would not put the
construction upon this statement in 1:5-7 that he has put--that Paul
indicates here by his congratulation of the Corinthians his satisfaction
that their glossolalia is a valid and important spiritual accomplishment
(or rather _endowment_, inasmuch as Paul very clearly says this is
something given rather than achieved). I still am not satisfied that this
is Paul's position. And although I would agree that Paul does NOT tell the
Corinthians that they should not practice glossolalia, I still think that
the tenor of what he says in chapters 12-14 is that the practice needs to
be reined in and subordinated to rational communication in the worship of
the congregation; I still believe also that the opening of chapter 13
relativizes both rhetoric and glossolalia to a low level among XARISMATA.
I think one of the reasons why 1:5-7 seemed ironic to me is that it seems
to be echoed more profoundly in the unquestionably sarcastic language of
4:7-8:
TIS GAR SE DIAKRINEI? TI DE EXEIS hO OUK ELABES? EI DE KAI ELABES, TI
KAUXASAI hWS MH LABWN? HDH KEKORESMENOI ESTE, HDH EPLOUTHSATE, XWRIS
hHMWN EBASILEUSATE; KAI OFELON GE EBASILEUSATE, hINA KAI hHMEIS hUMIN
SUMBASILEUSWMEN. ...
Of the commentaries on 1 Cor that I have ready to hand, none suggests that
1:5-7 are intended ironically. Conzelmann, however, (Hermeneia series, tr.
Leitch, Fortress Press) does point to the same sort of cataloging of topics
to be dealt with that Jan has suggested in his post. I'll cite his note on
1:5 in full:
"5 This verse desxribes the significance of grace. Paul's concern
is not to give an exhaustive definition of the concept, but as the
following verses show, to illustrate it by means of the concrete gifts of
grace which are manifest in the communty. He gives a first pointer here to
the nature and intensity of community life in Corinth, and this pointer is
a clue to the tone and content of the whole letter: EPLOUTISQHTE, 'you have
been made rich.' The addition of EN AUTWi, 'in him,' has the critical
intention of warding off any self-contemplation in the mirror of their own
riches. EN PANTI, 'in everything,' naturally must not be pressed; the
practice of speaking in general terms of this sort is widespread. The
concrete content of such a PAS, 'everything,' is providxed by the context,
in this case by the reference to the XARISMATA, 'gifts of grace' (Phil 4:6,
12; 1 Thess 5:18). Illustrative material is provided above all by chaps
12-14. From the abundance of XARISMATA (12:4ff), two that are especially
significant for the spiritual condition of the Corinthians and are later to
be discussed in critical terms (e.g., 8:1ff) are here singled out: LOGOS,
'eloquence,' and GNWSIS, 'knowledge' (cf. 12:8; 13:1f., 8f.; 2 Cor 8:7;
11:6; in a different sense 4:19f.). The question is of supernatural gifts,
not the superelevation of natural ones."
As I indicated earlier, I don't see much point in continuing this
discussion of glossolalia. It is obvious that perspectives on it and
corresponding interpretations of 1 Cor 12-14 are at a wide variance among
those who have posted on the subject. I really think that positions have
been made clear already, and I also think it is important that we endeavor
to retain and promote mutual respect for the conscientious theological
differences we hold regarding the right interpretation of these texts, at
least insofar as it is a question of what Paul really meant.
On the other hand, I am surprised at Kevin Anderson's assertion that the
glossolalia as a phenomenon of worship must be the same as that described
in Luke's Pentecost narrative in Acts 2. I think that the glossolalia at
issue is the same phenomenon referred to in the longer ending of Mark
(16:17) "GLWSSAIS LALHSOUSIN KAINAIS." KAINAI GLWSSAI can hardly refer to
known human languages, but Luke in Acts 2 MUST be referring to known human
languages.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:54:55 CST
Subject: Re: 1 Cor. 1:5-7
On Wed, 11 Oct 1995, Carl W. Conrad wrote:
>At 4:51 AM 10/11/95, J.D.F.=van=Halsema%BW_KG%TheoFilos@esau.th.vu.nl wrote:
>>Re.: 1 Cor. 1:5-7
>>
>>I would like to make another suggestion as regards the content and function
>>of this passage.
>>In this thanksgiving Paul probably is giving a kind of 'Table of contents' of
>>1 Cor. as a whole. In other words: it has a clear rhetorical function of
>>preparing the readers of what follows.
>>- logos: 1 Cor. 1-4
>>- gnosis: 1 Cor. 8
>>- charisma 1 Cor. 12-14
>>- apokalypsis 1 Cor. 15
>>To be saying that this passage has an ironical mood is a bit premature, I
>>think. Paul refers here to what he has given the audience during the founding
>>[?] visit: true knowledge etc of the true God, mediated by a true apostle (1
>>Cor. 1:1). (But: do they still adhere to this true message, do they still
>>hold Paul as a true apostle? That remains to be seen...)
>
>I think that this is a very reasonable view of the passage.
Interestingly enough, the use of charisma and apokalypsis refer directly to
the main themes of 1 Cor. 12-14 (spiritual gifts) and 1 Cor. 15 (the final
resurrection at the second coming). In my study of 1 Corinthians, these
chapters turned out to be the area of grammatical peak, which appear to
contain a sort of epistolary climax. It is interesting to see these themes
foreshadowed in the thanksgiving.
I do not put as much emphasis on the presence of logos and gnosis, in spite of
Carl's quote from Conzelmann (which I have omitted), since although these
words occur in the chapters indicated above, they are not the primary themes
of chapters 1-4 (division and wisdom) and 8-10 (food offered to idols).
>On the other hand, I am surprised at Kevin Anderson's assertion that the
>glossolalia as a phenomenon of worship must be the same as that described
>in Luke's Pentecost narrative in Acts 2. I think that the glossolalia at
>issue is the same phenomenon referred to in the longer ending of Mark
>(16:17) "GLWSSAIS LALHSOUSIN KAINAIS." KAINAI GLWSSAI can hardly refer to
>known human languages, but Luke in Acts 2 MUST be referring to known human
>languages.
Carl, I am curious as to your assertion: "KAINAI GLWSSAI can hardly refer to
known human languages." It would seem to me that the tongues could be new to
the speaker (and not just languages that are new). But then I come from a
family where we referred to a recently purchased used car as "our new car."
********************************************************************************
Bruce Terry E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station Phone: 915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699 Fax: 915/674-3769
********************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: Adalbert Goertz <bl571@freenet.buffalo.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 11:15:31 -0400
Subject: books offered
Books forsale:
Dr.Adalbert Goertz,12934 Buch.Trail E.,Waynesboro PA 17268-9329 USA.
Shipping extra.717-762-7378 5 5
German books: Umlaute: { = ae; | = oe; } = ue; ~ = ss;
internet email: adalbert.goertz@bbs.serve.org OR
be404@yfn.ysu.edu
Allen,James T:The first Year of Greek,Macmillan, NY 1931,383pp.
5.00
Bible:Vetus testamentum graecum uxta septuaginta interpretes, Lipsiae
1887,1027pp. 50.00
Moule,C.F.D.:An Idiom-Book of the New Testament Greek,Cambrige 1960,246 pp.
10.00
Robertson,A.T.:A Short Grammar of the Greek New Testament,NY 1908,249 pp.
12.00
Schiering,E.:Lese- und ]bungsbuch f}r den griechischen Anfangsunterricht,
Frankfurt 1928,240 pp. 8.00
- --
********************* Adalbert Goertz ***************************
retired in Waynesboro PA (65 miles from Baltimore/Washington DC)
Mennonite genealogy; insect studies; insect books wanted/traded
Would anyone trade our PA house for house in CO,NM,AZ, or ? ? ? ?
------------------------------
From: "L. E. Brown" <budman@sedona.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 14:38:44 GMT
Subject: Bible Education Sites on the Web?
Greetings Listmates!
I've been having correspondence with a brother from Singapore. He's
pastoring two churches there and would like to do advanced biblical
education but cannot afford to come to the states.
I know of other people in similar situations; a friend in Siberia, for
example.
Is anyone aware of any sites where Biblical education can occur via
WWW? I've talked with two friends of mine (one a college president,
the other a seminary president) about jumping into this field, but so
far there's no keen interest. I guess they don't see the ministry
possibilities.
=================================================
L. E. Brown, Jr. West Sedona Baptist Church
Sedona, Az.
"Fresh Sermon Illustrations:"
http://www.sedona.net/~budman/illustr.html
=================================================
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 11:06:14 -0500
Subject: Re: 1 Cor. 1:5-7
At 10:54 AM 10/11/95, Bruce Terry wrote:
>Carl, I am curious as to your assertion: "KAINAI GLWSSAI can hardly refer to
>known human languages." It would seem to me that the tongues could be new to
>the speaker (and not just languages that are new). But then I come from a
>family where we referred to a recently purchased used car as "our new car."
Bruce, we had a little thread back during the summer, I think, on the
difference between KAINOS and NEOS. KAINOS means newly-created,
newly-invented, unprecedented. I don't think that tongues new only to the
speaker would count as KAINAI.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: Karl_Schulte-CKS005@email.mot.com
Date: 11 Oct 95 11:16:54 -0500
Subject: Classical PC/Mac support
Does anyone know of similar PC programs for pre-Koine Greek?
Karl
------------------------------
From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:26:14 +0800
Subject: Needed: a source for Hatch and Redpath
I wonder if anyone can helkp me with a source for a new or used
copy of Hatch-Redpath's LXX concordance. It's not in my usual catalogs
(Great Christian Books or CBD), and my school's bookstore doesn't have
it Iand I shutter to think what full retail would be on such a thing).
Thanks in advance.
Ken Litwak
GTU
Bezerkely, CA
------------------------------
From: "Dale M. Wheeler" <dalemw@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 10:17:59 -0700
Subject: Janet Dove
Is there no way to keep this ****** (you fill in the deleted explicative)
Janet Dove and her magazine selling ******** (you fill in the proper
derogatory description) off BGreek, etc.
Or do ALL of the members of all of the forums have to send her a message in
which we tell her that because of her repeated waste of our time and
bandwidth, we would never subscribe to anything she is offering, even if it
were the greatest deal in the world...or some such genteel message.
Or do we have to send a protest message to her NET server ?
***********************************************************************
Dale M. Wheeler, Th.D.
Chair, Biblical Languages Dept Multnomah Bible College
8435 NE Glisan Street Portland, OR 97220
Voice: 503-251-6416 FAX:503-254-1268 E-Mail: dalemw@teleport.com
***********************************************************************
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 12:22:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Classical PC/Mac support
At 11:16 AM 10/11/95, Karl_Schulte-CKS005@email.mot.com wrote:
>Does anyone know of similar PC programs for pre-Koine Greek?
>Karl
There's some very good stuff for classical Attic Greek. I don't know much
about the software for DOS or Windoze, but you will find information about
them if you check the computer resources listed in the article at
http://www.circe.unh.edu/classics/resources.html
For the Mac you may find information at the above site as well. There are
also some outstanding Mac HyperCard stacks that were created for the JACT
course, _Reading Greek_ that have been created by Matt Neuburg in New
Zealand. His web site, whence they are freely downloadable is:
http://matt.clas.canterbury.ac.nz/
Apart from the instructional stack there, he also has two or three other
items, including a Flash Cards stack with all the vocabulary of _Reading
Greek_, another stack with vocabulary and helps for reading Plato's
Protagoras (parts of it) and another program written in a hypertext program
called StorySpace called "Greek Verb Help" which displays the structure of
the classical Attic verb in a variety of different ways that show
relationships.
Hope this helps.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: Glenn Frasier <GlennFrasier@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 16:58:28 UT
Subject: RE: Greek-Hebrew Bible Software
- ----------
From: KevLAnder@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 1995
10:50 PM
To: b-greek@virginia.edu
Subject: Greek-Hebrew Bible Software
I have two other concerns:
(1) My understanding is that with Bible Works one
can paste multi-lingual
text quite seamlessly into Microsoft Word, but for
some reason WordPerfect
(at least 6.0a) will not properly do this. Of
course, this is probably
WordPerfect's problem. Is there a similar problem
with Logos?
(2) Are there any problems running either Logos or Bible Works
under Windows
95? Even if not, would I still be wiser to hold out until
Bible software
designed to fully take advantage of Win95 is released?
Thank you for any assistance you might be able to give me.
Kevin L.
Anderson
Ph.D. student, GTU
I have been using Logos 1.6 and have
had no problems pasting to Word 6.0. I have all the add-on(greek texts,
Hebrew text). I have seen Logos 2.0 and used it for ofer a week but was
unimpressed with it. It has lost some of its usfulness and ease. I am going
to wait till 95 specific versions come out. maybe I will be able to find one
that Dupes the porformance and ease of Logos 1.6 which works fine under
Win/95.
Glenn E Frasier jr.
Evangelist
Lipan Church of Christ,
Texas
Jeremiah 6:16 Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, And ask
for the old paths, where the good way is, And walk in it; Then you will find
rest for your souls...'
------------------------------
From: Stephen Carlson <scc@reston.icl.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 13:00:53 EDT
Subject: Summary Re: Books on the Synoptic Problem
This posting is a summary of the references I received.
WINBROW@aol.com wrote:
> Stephen Carlson wrote:
> >Two modern works are very good, but they are explicitly
> >"neutral" on the question: Bellinzoni's anthology, THE
> >TWO-SOURCE HYPOTHESIS: A Critical Appraisal, which is
> >out of print, and David Neville's ARGUMENTS FROM ORDER
> >IN SYNOPTIC SOURCE CRITICISM.
>
> >So what I'm asking is: if there are books out there defending
> >the 2SH, what are they?
>
> I still think that one of the best short statements about Mark as the first
> gospel written and the dependence of Matt. & Luke is by G.M. Styler in the
> fourth excursus in C.F.D. Moule, The Birth of the NT.
I think Styler's piece is included in the Bellinzoni anthology.
> The best textbook for
> a study of the Synoptic relationships is Aland, Synopsis Quattour
> Evangeliorum. The old Huck-Lietzmann, Synopse Der Drei Ersten Evangelien
> served me very well. One needs to translate these gospels paragraph by
> paragraph side by side before one forms a fixed opinion on the question.
I'm actually working on my own four-color three-column Greek synopsis using
WordPerfect 5.1 and the "Symbol" font (thus no diacriticals). It is a
valuable exercise. I'd like to make it freely available on the 'net/web
when I'm done, assuming releases for the Greek text. HTML (i.e, World
Wide Web) is not yet ready for this job, so I'm limited to WordPerfect for
technical reasons.
> Allen Barr, A Diagram of Synoptic Relationships is a handy tool to have at
> hand when evaluating secondary works on the subject.
Here is a summary of the responses by private email:
Jesus Seminar, RED LETTER MARK.
Kloppenborg, ed., THE SHAPE OF Q.
Koester, ANCIENT CHRISTIAN GOSPELS.
Robertson, A HARMONY OF THE GOSPELS.
Thomas & Gundry, A HARMONY OF THE GOSPELS.
Stein, THE SYNOPTIC PROBLEM.
Tuckett, REVIVAL OF THE GRIESBACH HYPOTHESIS.
Of this list, Stein's work is exactly the work I was looking for.
It is clear, logical, and well-organized. It also has the added
benefit of being a good introduction to form and redaction criticism.
It didn't quell every doubt I've had about the Two-Source Hypothesis,
but he lays a good foundation.
Stephen Carlson
- --
Stephen Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations, : ICL, Inc.
scc@reston.icl.com : and songs chant the words. : 11490 Commerce Park Dr.
(703) 648-3330 : Shujing 2:35 : Reston, VA 22091 USA
------------------------------
From: Mark O'Brien <Mark_O'Brien@dts.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 12:04:07 CST
Subject: Re: NA27 apparatus perplexity
Original message sent on Mon, Oct 9 9:05 PM by rdecker@accunet.com (Rod Decker)
:
> 2. Mark 8:35 (this one is a bit more complex; I'll try to summarize)
> The two variants are marked with: Represented below
as:
> a. the right angle substitution bracket, and [apolesei
> b. the dotted oblique angle substitution brackets: <tHn psuchHn
autou>
> The two variants are not divided with the usual vertical line in the
> apparatus, but instead are joined with 'et' [and]. The question is
> basically, why the 'et' here? In more detail, if you have time, how is the
> evidence to be sorted out?
I think (and I may well be wrong here), but there are basically four
variants at work here:
1. There are some MSS that have APOLESH as opposed to APOLESEI.
2. There are some MSS that have both APOLESH as opposed to
APOLESEI and which also read THN EAUTOU VUXHN following this.
3. There are some MSS which read AUTHN for AUTOU.
4. And then there is the reading as it stands in the text.
I think (and I could well be wrong) that the "et" is being used to identify
MSS that have option 1 above, and those which have both option 2 (and
also possibly option 1 - see MSS W and 2427), and then we revert back to normal
format. That's just my guess... does anybody have a better
suggestion?
Mark O'Brien
------------------------------
From: Travis Bauer <bauer@acc.jc.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 13:36:32 -35900
Subject: Off topic question
Sorry for an off topic question. I'm wondering if anyone else is
getting these magazine offers through e-mail. I've gotton the same one
about three times now and want to get it stopped.
Does anyone else know where these are coming from?
/-----------------------------------------------------------------
/ Travis Bauer / Earth is a beta site. /
/ Jamestown College / /
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: David Housholder <73423.2015@compuserve.com>
Date: 11 Oct 95 14:42:09 EDT
Subject: online studies
to: L. E. Budman. You wrote to B-Greek asking about theological studies via the
Internet. Contact Trinity College & Seminary in Newburgh, Indiana. They have a
Computer Integrated Studies Division which offers courses through a private
forum on CompuServe. For information send e-mail to 74774.3051@compuserve.com.
I don't know more than that--just received their brochure yesterday. I am
posting this on the discussion group because others may be interested to check
on this.
David Housholder
writing at 1:45 PM on Wednesday, October 11, 1995
------------------------------
From: "Keith A. Clay" <keithc@ramlink.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 15:04:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Janet Dove
>Is there no way to keep this ****** (you fill in the deleted explicative)
>Janet Dove and her magazine selling ******** (you fill in the proper
>derogatory description) off BGreek, etc.
>
>Or do ALL of the members of all of the forums have to send her a message in
>which we tell her that because of her repeated waste of our time and
>bandwidth, we would never subscribe to anything she is offering, even if it
>were the greatest deal in the world...or some such genteel message.
>
>Or do we have to send a protest message to her NET server ?
>
>***********************************************************************
>Dale M. Wheeler, Th.D.
>Chair, Biblical Languages Dept Multnomah Bible College
>8435 NE Glisan Street Portland, OR 97220
>Voice: 503-251-6416 FAX:503-254-1268 E-Mail: dalemw@teleport.com
>***********************************************************************
>
>
>
It is even more interesting, that there is no reply-email-address to send
complaints to. I am going to fax a note to this company (fax# is in
message) and ask that they quit doing this. Janet Dove is not the only one.
I think that there should be a requirement that if you send e-mail, you have
give an e-mail address to reply to ( like the law that says that faxes must
sender name/sender phone number on them.)
keith
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith A. Clay Tri-State Oxygen, Inc
4013 Blackburn Avenue 2927 Greenup Avenue
Ashland, KY 41101-5019 P.O. Box 121
(606)325-8331 Ashland, KY 41105-0121
(606)329-9638
(800)828-1620
School Address:
100 Academic Parkway
Kentucky Christian College
Box 171
Grayson, KY 41143
e-mail: keithc@ramlink.net
Fax: (606)325-8331 -- my computer answers both my phone and receives faxes.
(606)325-9962 -- work fax
==========================================================================
"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found
difficult and left untried." -- G. K. Chesterton
==========================================================================
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 15:22:12 -0400
Subject: Re: NA27 apparatus perplexity
Larry W. Hurtado wrote;
>The apparatus in NA27 at Mk 8:13 is punctuated with periods >after some
minuscule mss and then a comma separating some >from others because some of
the mss are in the "lst order" >classification of the Alands and some of in
the "2nd order" >(see NA27 Intro, pp. 58f.). N.B. also Appendix 2, where
>readings of mss. cited in the round brackets at 8:13 appear.<
But if that is the case, why do the same two mss appear in the apparatus for
verse 9 above in the regular order separated by periods?
A more probable explanation is the one having to do with order. But, even
that cannot be gleaned from the introduction.
Carlton Winbery
LA College, Pineville, LA
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 15:21:54 -0400
Subject: Re: 1Cor. 14:14
Ken, you appear to be hung up on the word "ecstasy." A good book that helped
me a great deal is John P. Kildahl, The Psychology of Speaking in Tongues.
The word ecstasy does not mean that a person who has had this experience
cannot turn it on or off at will, but that the sounds being made are not
consciously controlled by the normal speech mechanisms so that human speech
is created. Kildahl is a psychologists and has done much research in the
modern phenomena and also ancient documents.
If the word "ecstasy" is unacceptable, psychologists often use the word
"dissociative." Either way the sounds made are not consciously controlled by
the speech mechanism in the brain. there are many kinds of dissociative
experiences, such as a laugh or hypnotism. In religion, these experiences
occur because of strong emotional involvement and are good or bad in accord
with what they produce in the believer and his/her relationships with others
and God.
Carlton Winbery
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 15:22:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Ray Summers' ENT
KevLAnder@aol.com wrote;
>I heard that there is a new edition of Ray Summers' >ESSENTIALS OF NEW
TESTAMENT GREEK. Has anyone had a >chance to look at it?<
I have a copy sent to me for examination. It was revised by Thomas Sawyer of
Mars Hill College. It is published by Broadman & Holman Publishers (Southern
Baptist). There have been some good improvements in presentation of
paradigms, explanations of elementary aspects of the language, and in
exersizes; but, it is still an approach that is built on the A.T. Robertson 8
case system. Some erroneous information has been eliminated (such as Dr.
Summers explanation of the verb AKOUW meaning different things with the
accusative and genitive cases as object). There are some mistakes in the
appendexes such as the citing of HXA, HKA, and HGMAI as the aorist, perfect
active, and perfect passive of AGW when they are from HKW - to arrive.
The chart of verbs in the back of the book contains several glaring errors
that would be misleading.
If a person wants a simple easy to use intro to Greek something like Bill
Mounce's book with workbook or Gerald Steven's beginning grammar with
workbook from Univ. Press of Am. would be better.
Carlton Winbery
LA College, Pineville, LA
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 14:34:01 -0500
Subject: Re: 1 Cor. 1:5-7
At 12:19 PM 10/11/95, David Moore wrote:
>Carl,
>
> I put my recent post on 1Cor. 1:5-7 through a search engine to see
>if it contained a mention of tongues but couldn't find the word; GLOSS*
>turned up empty as well. Part of the problem in dealing with the biblical
>data on spiritual gifts is that some of the gifts elicit emotional
>reactions which can disrupt real dialogue.
>
> My comments on this passage reflect (I think) my belief that Paul
>sees the spiritual gifts as ideally functioning in harmonious concert for
>the purpose of edifying the body of Christ. Although they were not so
>functioning in Corinth when Paul wrote 1Corinthians, he appears to take as
>a hopeful sign that they were at least functioning in some capacity.
David, my sincere apologies if I misled anyone in focusing my response to
your post on 1 Cor 1:5-7 on glossolalia, although my intent was to say that
it did seem to me that this passage right at the outset seems to refer to
so many of the problems that the letter involves it with so much. I think
that I was still responding at that point to your earlier post, with the
subject-head still indicating 1 Cor 14:14, in which you wrote:
"Notwithstanding Paul's open attitude toward the functioning of the
gifts, his admonitions in this passage call his readers to a balanced
attitude. Tongues are not to be employed in a disorderly or scandalous
manner, but neither are they to be forbidden. All the gifts are to
function for the edification of the body and not the agrandizement of the
one who exercises the gift. And above all the love of Christ is to reign
in every action and in every heart.
"This seems to me a vision worth pursuing."
On re-reading this paragraph (+ verselet) I have to say that I think it is
a fine recapitulation of 1 Cor 12-14. If there's any point at all I'm
skeptical about (and I say skeptical, not absolute settled on the matter)
is whether Paul really envisions a significant role for tongues to play (in
1 Cor 13 he certainly says that if they play a role now, they will cease to
do so). It seems to be the accepted view of the majority that Paul does not
forbid tongues, nor can I find any statement whatsoever indicating that he
forbids them. The question about which I am less than certain is whether he
really is promoting them at all. In my opinion he is very clearly
discouraging any use of them wherein what is said in ecstatic tongues is
not reformulated into rationally communicable form so that it can indeed
"edify the body." And I also think that the danger he sees is in an orgy (a
word I use not disparagingly; it was originally a regular word for
religious rites in pagan Greek) of private ecstasy that serves the
community in no way at all. I hope that this will clarify the point on
which I am still not in full agreement with you. But let me repeat, I think
the statement above is really excellent.
> Unmentioned, but, IMHO, present in most open discussions of the
>topic of the gifts of the Spirit is the fairly-widely-held cessationist
>position which posits that legitimate charismatic gifts ceased to function
>at the end of the apostolic period. I've traced the idea back as far as
>Calvin (although Eusebius and some others might have expressed at least a
>similar attitude) who had been negatively impressed by some of the
>doctrines and practices of the Montanists, although they predate him by
>several centuries. Sometimes, IMO, those who hold a cessationist position
>find it difficult to see in the biblical data on gifts of the Spirit,
>information that might tend to confirm contemporary charismatic practice.
>I really don't know that anyone on the list specifically holds this
>position, but felt that it should be mentioned relating to the open
>discussion we've had on this topic, since it may be present here as an
>undercurrent.
I frankly don't understand this at all; it seems downright stupid or silly
to me that what was once legitimate worship practice within Christendom
should at a given point in history cease to have validity. Notwithstanding,
I would hope that nobody looks in the NT for a justification for animal
sacrifices such as continued to be offered in the Jerusalem Temple until
its destruction. But that's pretty far afield, isn't it? Nor have I been
able to understand the notion that miracles took place in the apostolic era
but don't any more. Of course the real miracle of the gospel is that human
beings are transformed into new creatures, and I don't think there's any
rationalist explanation for that in terms of physics or chemistry or
psychiatry. Now, I hope that I have gone as far as I will go in stating a
faith-proposition online. Back to Greek.
> Relative to Johan D.F. (Erik) van Halsema's suggestion that 1Cor.
>1:5-7 constitutes a "Table of contents," it seems unwarranted to put such
>a formal name on Paul's words here. Erik is observant in noting that Paul
>mentions themes that he later touches on and develops in the rest of the
>letter, but there is no formal statement included in 1:5-7 and context
>that he intends to so do. One would expect this latter to be present here
>if really were presenting this passage as a "table of contents."
I don't think the term "table of contents" was meant in any literal sense,
but it doesn't seem unreasonable that Paul might highlight themes that are
very much on his mind as he begins this letter, and that's why I thought
the proposition was a reasonable one.
> Congratulations on your (was it) 61 years and to Edward Hobbs on
>his 70; you're both considerably ahead of me since I only turn 51 later
>this month.
Edward was 69 yesterday rather than 70, I think. As for myself, I do more
or less plan to retire in four years, but I hope to be articulate on and
offline (God willing) longer than that; you have many more years ahead,
David, to be articulate on and offline, and I'm sure you will be. Best
wishes.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #904
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