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b-greek-digest V1 #936
b-greek-digest Thursday, 2 November 1995 Volume 01 : Number 936
In this issue:
Re: Periphrastic Aorist
re: LXX, J4J, and Missionaries
Final sigma in fonts
Re: Final sigma in fonts
Re: Final sigma in fonts
Re: Final sigma in fonts
New Greek font
Re: Periphrastic Aorist
Romans 4:13
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Dale M. Wheeler" <dalemw@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 07:50:11 -0800
Subject: Re: Periphrastic Aorist
Edgar M. Krentz wrote:
>I think Luke 14:18 is *not* an example of EXW plus a participle as a
>periphrastic.
I agree...otherwise the verse would mean "I have to go..." (I don't make 'em
up, I just report 'em).
>The Greek is EXW ANAGKHN EXELQWN IDEIN AUTON. In this
>construction the object of the RXW is the infintive IDEIN; the participle
>EXELQWN can be construed either as modifying the subject in EXW or as an
>adverbial participle expressing attendant circumstance with the verb. The
>presence of the infinitive makes it impossible as a periphrastic.
>
>But then again, maybe someone will refute me on the basis of a different
>parsing. :-)
I must disagree, based on the parsing :-)
As we all know the Greek verb RXW (check the posting carefully), pronounced
Hrockoh,
like the cartoon character Rocko (I don't believe there is any connection,
but I could
be wrong; perhaps we have a semantio-linguio-etymologenarian on the list who
could more accurately speak to that issue). This Greek word has been
heavily influenced from the Latin, as in "Don't rocko the boat" (this has
something to do with Livia's attempt on the life of one of the heirs to
Augustus' throne). Well, I believe all of you can see the implications of
this...., can't you ????
Oh, one other minor, nit-picking point...IDEIN isn't the direct object of
EXW, since that would give it a double direct object with ANAGKHN; IDEIN is
an epexegetical infinitive to ANAGKHN, a fairly common occurrence.
***********************************************************************
Dale M. Wheeler, Th.D.
Chair, Biblical Languages Dept Multnomah Bible College
8435 NE Glisan Street Portland, OR 97220
Voice: 503-251-6416 FAX:503-254-1268 E-Mail: dalemw@teleport.com
***********************************************************************
------------------------------
From: Eric Weiss <eweiss@acf.dhhs.gov>
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 95 11:46:57 -30000
Subject: re: LXX, J4J, and Missionaries
I'm getting all these responses about the LXX and Jewish witnessing when my
comments were a response to someone else's post.
The person who is interested in the LXX question is Daniel Hedrick at:
hedrickd@ochampus.mil
I'll forward him a copy of this latest response I got.
------------------------------
From: Bill Mounce <billm@teknia.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 11:18:22 -0700
Subject: Final sigma in fonts
I am asked about this a lot, so thought y'all would like to hear about it.
It has to do with the final sigma not printing properly.
Final sigma problems are caused when you have smart quotes turned on your
word processor. It turns the double quote character (final sigma in most
Greek fonts) into the" option-[" character. This is a problem with the
mapping of most of the Greek fonts for the Macintosh (SuperGreek
[Linguists], Alexandria [Zondervan], Mounce, but not Helena [acCordance]).
We are working on a new font that will move this character and a utility
for changing your text files over to the newmapping. We will also make it
agree with the Windows side.
Bill Mounce
- -------------------------------
Teknia Software, Inc.
1306 W. Bellwood Drive
Spokane, WA 99218-2911
Internet: billm@teknia.com (preferred)
AOL: Mounce
CIS: 71540,2140 (please, only if necessary)
"It may be Greek to you, but it is life to me."
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 14:44:44 -0600
Subject: Re: Final sigma in fonts
At 12:18 PM 11/1/95, Bill Mounce wrote:
>I am asked about this a lot, so thought y'all would like to hear about it.
>It has to do with the final sigma not printing properly.
>
>Final sigma problems are caused when you have smart quotes turned on your
>word processor. It turns the double quote character (final sigma in most
>Greek fonts) into the" option-[" character. This is a problem with the
>mapping of most of the Greek fonts for the Macintosh (SuperGreek
>[Linguists], Alexandria [Zondervan], Mounce, but not Helena [acCordance]).
>We are working on a new font that will move this character and a utility
>for changing your text files over to the newmapping. We will also make it
>agree with the Windows side.
I realize that this will not solve the problem with the conventional fonts
that people are mostly using--from the SMK fonts that I prefer to the
SuperGreek fonts that some like because they have the Nestle-Aland
text-critical markers, etc., etc.--but there's been something of a move
afoot aong some Classicists to start using the lunate sigma which doesn't
distinguish between initial/medial and final sigma. Recent Oxford Classical
Texts have been printed using the lunate sigma, and it's a direction which
I think is eminently sensible. Tradition is the only thing that keeps
people making this stupid distinction, and, to be honest, in the long
history of the Greek language, this distinction between initial/medial- and
final sigma is a RELATIVELY modern thing. The ancients, who had no cursive
alphabet, didn't need to make the distinction, and it doesn't really make
any sense unless one is writing connected cursive letters.
My .02 worth.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: Will Wagers <wagers@computek.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 17:06:59 -0600
Subject: Re: Final sigma in fonts
Get "popchar 2.7.1" for the Mac off the Net- it allows you to insert any
single character from a little box that stays in your main menu bar and
turns into a list of the current font. I use it for this problem. It solves
other problems as well, depending on what software you are using and what
features are enabled.
Good luck, Will
>Final sigma problems are caused when you have smart quotes turned on your
>word processor. It turns the double quote character (final sigma in most
>Greek fonts) into the" option-[" character. This is a problem with the
>mapping of most of the Greek fonts for the Macintosh (SuperGreek
>[Linguists], Alexandria [Zondervan], Mounce, but not Helena [acCordance]).
>We are working on a new font that will move this character and a utility
>for changing your text files over to the newmapping. We will also make it
>agree with the Windows side.
>
>Bill Mounce
------------------------------
From: Will Wagers <wagers@computek.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 17:07:03 -0600
Subject: Re: Final sigma in fonts
Get "popchar 2.7.1" for the Mac off the Net- it allows you to insert any
single character from a little box that stays in your main menu bar and
turns into a list of the current font. I use it for this problem. It solves
other problems as well, depending on what software you are using and what
features are enabled.
Good luck, Will
>Final sigma problems are caused when you have smart quotes turned on your
>word processor. It turns the double quote character (final sigma in most
>Greek fonts) into the" option-[" character. This is a problem with the
>mapping of most of the Greek fonts for the Macintosh (SuperGreek
>[Linguists], Alexandria [Zondervan], Mounce, but not Helena [acCordance]).
>We are working on a new font that will move this character and a utility
>for changing your text files over to the newmapping. We will also make it
>agree with the Windows side.
>
>Bill Mounce
------------------------------
From: Bill Mounce <billm@teknia.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 18:06:10 -0700
Subject: New Greek font
Okay, I goofed. I put the Macintosh Greek font in with the Windows version
of FlashWorks. That has been fixed, and you can upload just the font from
my web page, "www.teknia.com/teknia". Someone told me they had trouble
getting in and had to use "www.ior.com/teknia". If this happens to you I
would appreciate knowing.
With all the discussion we had a while back on font mapping, was there ever
a consensus of what characters should be mapped where? When I have time I
am going to alter my font so it is the same on Macs and Windows.
Bill Mounce
- -------------------------------
Teknia Software, Inc.
1306 W. Bellwood Drive
Spokane, WA 99218-2911
Internet: billm@teknia.com (preferred)
AOL: Mounce
CIS: 71540,2140 (please, only if necessary)
"It may be Greek to you, but it is life to me."
------------------------------
From: "Edgar M. Krentz" <emkrentz@mcs.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 20:28:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Periphrastic Aorist
>Edgar M. Krentz wrote:
>
>>I think Luke 14:18 is *not* an example of EXW plus a participle as a
>>periphrastic.
>
>I agree...otherwise the verse would mean "I have to go..." (I don't make 'em
>up, I just report 'em).
>
>>The Greek is EXW ANAGKHN EXELQWN IDEIN AUTON. In this
>>construction the object of the RXW is the infintive IDEIN; the participle
>>EXELQWN can be construed either as modifying the subject in EXW or as an
>>adverbial participle expressing attendant circumstance with the verb. The
>>presence of the infinitive makes it impossible as a periphrastic.
>>
>>But then again, maybe someone will refute me on the basis of a different
>>parsing. :-)
>
>I must disagree, based on the parsing :-)
>
>As we all know the Greek verb RXW (check the posting carefully), pronounced
>Hrockoh,
>like the cartoon character Rocko (I don't believe there is any connection,
>but I could
>be wrong; perhaps we have a semantio-linguio-etymologenarian on the list who
>could more accurately speak to that issue). This Greek word has been
>heavily influenced from the Latin, as in "Don't rocko the boat" (this has
>something to do with Livia's attempt on the life of one of the heirs to
>Augustus' throne). Well, I believe all of you can see the implications of
>this...., can't you ????
>
>Oh, one other minor, nit-picking point...IDEIN isn't the direct object of
>EXW, since that would give it a double direct object with ANAGKHN; IDEIN is
>an epexegetical infinitive to ANAGKHN, a fairly common occurrence.
****************************************
I'm sure glad I put that smiley face at the end of my posting. If I knew
how to put a red face in, I would do it now. That pesky verb RXW! Since
reading Dale Wheeler's posting, I have been trying to figure out the
etymology for this very rare verb. Beyond those suggesed by Dale there may
be other possibilities! Could ite be an apocopated ARXW? Did I mean to
write the Hebrew triconsonantal stem RXM and mistype it? It could be I was
trying to avoid vengeance. I am not a devotee of ROCK music, so it didn't
come from there. The implications are clearly manifold; good thing Dale put
that term in the plural, nicht?
My face really is red, however, for the parsing blunder I made with the
infinitive IDEIN. Dale Wheeler [and earlier Carlton Winbery, who made a
more silent correction] are both correct in identifying ANAGKHN as the
direct object and IDEIN as an epexegetical infinitive, one that
Goodwin-Gulick, par. 1532 describe as "Any adjective or adverb may take an
infinitive to limit its meaning to a particular action (_epexegetic
infinitive)" and in par. 1534 describe as a limiting infinitive: "Nouns and
even verbs may take the infinitive as a limiting accusative (1056)." [I had
to get that accusative in there somehow.] That limiting infinitive after a
verb I was taught to call a supplementary infinitive way back when. How I
wish that grammatical terminology could have been standardized to conform
to the language of Herbert Weir Smythe.
I am glad that my rejection of Luke 14:18 as an excample of EXW + particple
as a periphrastic survived Dale's aetic [my neologism] eye.
Anyway, thanks to Dale Wheeler for both the correction and the spice with
which it came. :-) and then some.
Edgar Krentz, New Testament
Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
Tel.: 312-256-0752; (H) 312-947-8105
------------------------------
From: JClar100@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 23:08:13 -0500
Subject: Romans 4:13
Does (h epaggelia) in Romans 4:13 equate to
(to klhponomon auton einai kosmou) in the same verse?
If so, would the (h tw spermati autou) mean that "his seed" are also
"heirs (lit., this is singular) of the world"? Do the constructions in this
sentence justify
this understanding? If not, what is the meaning?
AND
I take the rest of the verse to be translated something like this: "For the
promise to Abraham...was not through law but through the righteousness
of faith." But, I am still struggling with the use of terms like
"righteousness" and "jusitification." However, I can't seem to come up with
other words which
might better communicate in "un-theological" terminology what the meaning is.
Any suggestions?
JClar100@aol.com
James Clardy
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #936
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