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b-greek-digest V1 #938
b-greek-digest Saturday, 4 November 1995 Volume 01 : Number 938
In this issue:
Re: "Perfect"?
Romans 4:17
Re: Romans 4:17
Re: Romans 4:17
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Carlton L. Winbery" <winberyc@linknet.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 13:30:24 -0600
Subject: Re: "Perfect"?
Eric Vaughn wrote;
>The purpose
>of these gifts were to bring the Lord's message into
>the world and confirm it. When the message was completed,
>that which was done in part (vs 9) ceased because we
>no longer need miraculous revelation.
>
Perhaps a better understanding of TO TELEION, especially when mentioned as
"coming" is eschatalogical. All those things that are EK MEROUS "in part"
are judged beside the ultimate, the parousia. That which remains into the
age is what really matters, faith, hope, and love.
Carlton Winbery
Prof. Religion
LA College,
Pineville,La
winberyc@linknet.net
fax (318) 442-4996
------------------------------
From: JClar100@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 15:39:43 -0500
Subject: Romans 4:17
...KALOUNTOS TA MH ONTA WS ONTA.
TRANSLATION:
1. "...calling things which do not exist as existing."
OR
2. "...calling things which do not exist into being."
+++++++
TWO OPPOSING VIEWS:
1. Dunn states that KALEW has the strong sense of summons
and that WS expresses a consequence. So, his translation runs:
"...who calls things that have no existence into existence." (p. 218.)
2. Max G. indicates that WS ONTA is "not speaking of non-existent
things as if they existed, but 'calling' them 'into existence'" (p. 468).
++++++
COMMENTS:
1. Is it acceptable to translate this as follows: "...calling the
non-existent things 'as if' existing"?
2. Is there any difference between the "non-existent" and the "existent"
when faith, in effect, equals reality?
3. This is important for me because the very definition of faith hinges
on the difference between the "seen" and the "unseen." Or, perhaps
it's more accurate to say that the two, in the final analysis, are
synonymous.
JClar100@aol.com
James Clardy
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 20:14:27 -0600
Subject: Re: Romans 4:17
At 2:39 PM 11/3/95, JClar100@aol.com wrote:
>...KALOUNTOS TA MH ONTA WS ONTA.
>TRANSLATION:
>1. "...calling things which do not exist as existing."
>OR
>2. "...calling things which do not exist into being."
>+++++++
>TWO OPPOSING VIEWS:
>1. Dunn states that KALEW has the strong sense of summons
>and that WS expresses a consequence. So, his translation runs:
>"...who calls things that have no existence into existence." (p. 218.)
>2. Max G. indicates that WS ONTA is "not speaking of non-existent
>things as if they existed, but 'calling' them 'into existence'" (p. 468).
>++++++
>COMMENTS:
>1. Is it acceptable to translate this as follows: "...calling the
>non-existent things 'as if' existing"?
>2. Is there any difference between the "non-existent" and the "existent"
>when faith, in effect, equals reality?
>3. This is important for me because the very definition of faith hinges
>on the difference between the "seen" and the "unseen." Or, perhaps
>it's more accurate to say that the two, in the final analysis, are
>synonymous.
I'm not sure whether this gets to the heart of the question you are asking
about this text, but it seems to me that, whichever of these alternative
versions one prefers, this part of the verse is concerned not with the
nature of the faith but rather with the nature of the God in whom one puts
one's trust (and as a matter of interpretation here, I don't think that the
faith here is a matter of cognitive assent to a proposition so much as it
is personal trust in God to keep his promises. Now it also seems to me that
this part of the verse is emphasizing that the God in whom Abraham puts his
trust is both Creator and Redeemer: he is the God who makes what is dead
come alive whether that be Abraham's own SWMA NENEKRWMENON or the NEKRWSIN
THS MHTRAS SARRAS. This God makes the dead come alive and summons things
that are unreal into reality or that are not into being. I think that the
parallelism between the two participial phrases qualifying TOU QEOU is
important: (1) ZWOPOIOUNTOS TOUS NEKROUS and (2) KALOUNTOS TA MH ONTA hWS
ONTA; it is the God who raises the dead and who calls into being. I think
that what Paul is trying to underscore here is that Abraham's trust is in
the God who raises Jesus from the dead and who brings to life the
generative seed in Abraham himself and the generative womb in Sarah. As I
see it, the emphasis is on the proposition that trust in God the Creator is
at the same time trust in God the Redeemer.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: JClar100@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 23:53:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Romans 4:17
Carl,
In reply to some questions about Romans 4:17, you indicated that faith
is "trust in God to keep his promises." Please note Romans 4:13 which
mentions the term H EPAGGELIA. I have read that this word carries with
it the idea of unconditional promise, i.e., the one making the promise
does not demand that some requirement be fulfilled by the one to whom
the promise is announced. Do you have any insight into such an
understanding of this term? And, if this should be a somewhat characteristic
use
of the term in the contemporary historical period, does it appear to have
this representative use in the chapter under discussion?
I raise this question, because, if this is the case, it seems to me that
it strengthens the correctives being attempted by many
theologians today where legalistic tendencies have come
close to robbing the faith of its transcendent qualities. Therefore, we are
led back to your powerful observation that the thrust of Paul's words
is not about the nature of faith but the nature of God. (That statement has
really been very helpful.)
JClar100@aol.com
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #938
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