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b-greek-digest V1 #15
b-greek-digest Saturday, 25 November 1995 Volume 01 : Number 015
In this issue:
Re: TO TELEION / 1 Cor. 13:10
status of b-greek
Re: review Palmer 1995
Apologies for Greek Fonts
Copywritten fonts
Re: review Palmer 1995, II
Re: 1 Tim. 2:15--"get safely through"
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From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 06:33:30 -0600
Subject: Re: TO TELEION / 1 Cor. 13:10
My thanks to both David and Bruce for these most recent contributions to
the thread on this interesting and important verse in a critical chapter in
a very critical NT textual sequence. It is a demonstration of either the
circles in which I move (liberal Protestantism, I confess it) or(/and) my
ignorance of history of theological interpretation that I was really
surprised to see the interpretation of 13:10 in terms of fulfilment of
scripture. Bruce and David have really helped to illuminate this history as
regards the passage, and have also, I think, confirmed (to my satisfaction,
at least) the much more likely eschatological sense it holds.
The only thing I would add to the discussion of hOTE and hOTAN is that Paul
does tend to illustrate theological points by using the first-person
example, most notably elsewhere, though not exclusively, in Romans 7.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: "Dale M. Wheeler" <dalemw@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 06:03:51 -0800
Subject: status of b-greek
>Apparently 8 days ago (Wed. Nov. 8th) the subscription list for B-Greek was
>lost, although B-Greek-Digest continued to function correctly. Last Friday
>morning when Carl Conrad checked the subscription list (with a WHO B-GREEK
>command to majordomo), he discovered that there were only two names on the
>B-Greek subscription list. On that same day (or perhaps it was already
>Saturday in Australia where it is located), the archive for B-Greek at
>entmp.org was accidently lost (talk about coincidences!).
In addition to the archive maintained in Australia by James Tauber, the
GRAMCORD Institute recently began archiving b-greek (and b-hebrew) on its
WWW page (www.GRAMCORD.org). This archive goes back to September.
I know I'm going to regret this, but if anyone has kept their digests before
the date 9/11 (#856) and wishes to send them to me, I'll make sure they get
into the GRAMCORD archive (and try to make sure they get to James Tauber and
b-greek itself).
Three related questions:
1. Does anyone have any objections to the removal from the archive the ads
for books, etc. ??
2. Does anyone have any objections to the removal of the
subscribe/unsubscribe messages?
3. Is there going to be a problem with the numbering system on the digest,
since the b-greek started at #1 again after the crash...and if there is, is
there someway to reset the counter at the domain ??
***********************************************************************
Dale M. Wheeler, Th.D.
Chair, Biblical Languages Dept Multnomah Bible College
8435 NE Glisan Street Portland, OR 97220
Voice: 503-251-6416 FAX:503-254-1268 E-Mail: dalemw@teleport.com
***********************************************************************
------------------------------
From: "Philip L. Graber" <pgraber@emory.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 09:29:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: review Palmer 1995
Thank you, Vincent, for the review of Palmer's recent book. As one who is
interested in linguistics and NT Greek from a functionalist perspective,
and as one who has minimal knowledge of "generative" linguistics, I would
be most grateful if you could add to your review some sense of how works
such as Palmer's and your own projected work will contribute to exegesis
of biblical texts. One thing I struggle with in my own work is how to
convey to other NT scholars why they should bother with my linguistic
work. Why should NT scholars be interested in Palmer's work?
Philip Graber Graduate Division of Religion
Graduate Student in New Testament 211 Bishops Hall, Emory University
pgraber@emory.edu Atlanta, GA 30322 USA
------------------------------
From: "B-GREEK Conference @ omaccess.com" <XINCLXB-GREEK@omaccess.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 95 16:00:59 EDT
Subject: Apologies for Greek Fonts
To the subscribers of the B-Greek list,
One of our users posted copyrighted Greek fonts to the NT Greek conference on
our BBS which is synchronized with this list. I have deleted the copyrighted
fonts from our system, sent a letter to the user who posted the fonts, and
sent a cc: to the administrator of this list.
I apologize for the posting of these fonts and have taken the necessary
measures to delete them and "reminded" our user about copyright infringement.
Sincerely,
Theo Nicolakis
Orthodox Ministry ACCESS, Administrator
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WWW Home Page: http://www.omaccess.com/usr/om/home_page
Difficulty reports: root@gw.maceast.com
BBS# (617) 738-6160 [8-N-1]
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------------------------------
From: "B-GREEK Conference @ omaccess.com" <XINCLXB-GREEK@omaccess.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 95 16:55:53 EDT
Subject: Copywritten fonts
My humble apologies for posting something that was not mine. The Greek font I
placed here was from a copywritten program. My intentions were most honest
but my knowledge was lacking. Sorry!
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.=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=.=-=-=.=-=-=.=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=.
Sent via Orthodox Ministry Access BBS
"A Dynamic Ministry Resource Tool for Orthodox Christians"
WWW Home Page: http://www.omaccess.com/usr/om/home_page
Difficulty reports: root@gw.maceast.com
BBS# (617) 738-6160 [8-N-1]
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------------------------------
From: Vincent DeCaen <decaen@epas.utoronto.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 22:45:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: review Palmer 1995, II
>
> Thank you, Vincent, for the review of Palmer's recent book. As one who is
> interested in linguistics and NT Greek from a functionalist perspective,
> and as one who has minimal knowledge of "generative" linguistics, I would
> be most grateful if you could add to your review some sense of how works
> such as Palmer's and your own projected work will contribute to exegesis
> of biblical texts. One thing I struggle with in my own work is how to
> convey to other NT scholars why they should bother with my linguistic
> work. Why should NT scholars be interested in Palmer's work?
first, I think the discussion of TMA in Greek demonstrated the
*potential* payoff of linguistic study. but that's semantics (at least
in Greek). I presume the question is directly about formal *syntax*.
second, we had to turn away people from a crowded room at the SBL
linguistics section on TMA in Hebrew. I think that was a fair
indication of how linguistics is being received, especially by the
younger scholars.
1. a simple enumeration of the facts is one thing, and not in itself
terribly interesting. *explanation* of the facts is something else
altogether: why this and not that, natural classes, unified
treatments, generalizations. a formal treatment like Palmer's attempts
to account for "this and not that", which might not solve exegetical
problems, but *does* have value in its own right as an intellectual
endeavour.
2. my own work is directed at the Hebrew clause structure. there are
two elements of a discourse/pragmatic nature that rely on formal
features: topicalization, and aspectual structuring of the narrative.
the formal analysis can provide a better basis for these "higher
level" pursuits. e.g., in my treatment, topicalization is obligatory:
movement of a constituent to the "specifier of IP (inflectional
phrase)". so you can track in principle "topic-comment" from clause to
clause (and the facts appear to be those obtaining in Germanic Verb
Second systems, right down to the statistics of which elements
topicalize as a %). so I would say this is not a trivial application.
2e.g., I also hitch verbal semantics to verb movement, which has
direct implications for the structuring of text. moreover, my TMA
model has interesting implications for the theory of aspectual
structuring of Hebrew narrative texts.
3. I assume a full-blown analysis of Greek structures would also have
similar payoffs. I spoke briefly to Palmer about extending formal
analysis to the whole range of structures, and we're agreed that the
potential payoff is enormous. but I remember a message to this list
indicating that someone was working on clausal ordering (presumably in
some other framework). it would be helpful to track that down and see
what's already been done.
4. my own feeling is that asking why linguistics is important is like
asking why Greek is important in the study of the New Testament. I
would argue that we've been doing linguistics for thousands of years,
maybe not good linguistics though. we have theories: ask someone what
a noun is, and you'll find a theory of grammatical category, as a
simple example. what is an aorist? again, theory of TMA. the choice is
to do things the same old way, or to try to further our understanding
of Greek grammar. I simply assume the importance of Greek grammar: period.
hope this helps.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vincent DeCaen decaen@epas.utoronto.ca
Near Eastern Studies, Religion & Culture,
University of Toronto Wilfrid Laurier University
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ill fares the land, to hast'ning ills a prey,
Where wealth accumulates, and men decay.
--Oliver Goldsmith
------------------------------
From: "Patrick J. Brennan" <brennanp@cts.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 22:07:05 -0800
Subject: Re: 1 Tim. 2:15--"get safely through"
On 11/13/95, Bruce Terry wrote:
>A belated comment on 1 Tim. 2:15:
>
>I have for a number of years been intrigued by James Moffatt's translation of
>this verse:
>
>"However, women will get safely through childbirth, if they continue to be
>faithful and loving and holy as well as unassuming."
On 11/13/95 Carl W.Conrad replied:
Wow! This is fascinating. For clarity's sake in comment, let me cite (noch
wieder einmal!) the Greek:
SWQHSETAI DE DIA THS TEKNOGONIAS, EAN MEINWSIN EN PISTEI KAI AGAPHi KAI
hAGIASMWi META SWFROSUNHS.
Outside of its context (which, quite frankly, is itself not exceptionally
helpful toward the interpretation of the verse), this translation cannot be
faulted, I think, as a reading of the possible meaning of the Greek text.
In fact, although we do find DIA + genitive to express instrumentality, an
instrumental dative would (from my admittedly Attic perspective) be
preferable by far; and, in view of the fact that ancient childbirth is by
no means without risk of life (Euripides' Medea, remember, says she'd
rather face the foe with a spear on the battlefield three times to giving
birth once!), and given the fact that, outside of the theological sphere,
SWZEIN most normally DOES mean "bring safely," "preserve through peril,"
"keep intact" (as in the parable of the wine and wineskins; I tend to think
of getting safely through a semester!), the first clause of Moffat's
translation seems very natural.
Much as I like the whole version, however, I must admit that I have not
seen SWFROSUNH applied to women anywhere in Greek texts I've studied in a
sense other than sexual purity. When referring to a male, of course, it's
always the rational control of one's appetites generally rather than
specifically.....................................
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
May I suggest that SWFROSUNH in this case is not applying to women. The
first part of this sentence
SWQHSETAI DE DIA THS TEKNOGONIAS would be more correctly translated with
"woman" or "she" since SWQHSETAI is in the third person SINGULAR. However
SWFROSUNHS follows the verb MEINWSIN which is third person PLURAL.Could the
second part of this sentence refer to CHILDREN (plural) and not WOMAN
(singular)?
In light of this might this be a better translation:
However the woman (she) will be preserved through the bearing of children,
if they (the children) continue in faith and love and holiness with
modesty.
Help me out on this one please.
Patrick Brennan
Vista, Ca.
brennanp@cts.com
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End of b-greek-digest V1 #15
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