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b-greek-digest V1 #101
b-greek-digest Sunday, 4 February 1996 Volume 01 : Number 101
In this issue:
Rom 1:17
Re: Rom 1:17
Re: Rom 1:17
Re: Rom 1:17
A further (dissenting) reply on Romans 1:17
Re: Rom 1:17
Nothing to do with B-Greek
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Moe <parsonco@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 04:21:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Rom 1:17
I have been wrestling with DIKAIOS EK PISTEWS ZHSETAI. I have always
taken EK PISTEWS wtih ZHSETAI, but I am wondering why it should not be
taken with DIKAIOS. At Gal 3:11 Paul has building his argument on
Abraham and quotes Gen 15:6. DIKAIOS EK PISTEWOS is the point he is
making there. Is there some gramatical reason that Paul's use of this
phrase from Hab. 2:4 should not be taken this way. Since this seems to
not be a strick quotation of the Heb or the LXX as we have them, I do
not think that either of those should controle the understanding of
Paul's N.T. Use.
Thanks for any light you can cast.
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 07:17:23 -0600
Subject: Re: Rom 1:17
On 2/3/96, John Moe wrote:
> I have been wrestling with DIKAIOS EK PISTEWS ZHSETAI. I have always
> taken EK PISTEWS wtih ZHSETAI, but I am wondering why it should not be
> taken with DIKAIOS. At Gal 3:11 Paul has building his argument on
> Abraham and quotes Gen 15:6. DIKAIOS EK PISTEWOS is the point he is
> making there. Is there some gramatical reason that Paul's use of this
> phrase from Hab. 2:4 should not be taken this way. Since this seems to
> not be a strick quotation of the Heb or the LXX as we have them, I do
> not think that either of those should controle the understanding of
> Paul's N.T. Use.
> Thanks for any light you can cast.
By terms of "normal" Greek grammar, EK PISTEWS in Rom 1:17 SHOULD be
construed with ZHSETAI because it is in predicative position. For it to
mean "the one who is righteous by faith, it should be written hO EK PISTEWS
DIKAIOS. It has,in fact, always bothered me that Paul's central doctrine
appears to be based upon a grammatical misconstruction of his LXX proof
text as cited. As it stands, it would certainly appear to mean that the one
who is righteous will live (i.e. eschatological life, although I don't
think that was intended in the original formulation in Hab.) through faith;
it does NOT appear to mean that faith makes the person righteous and
THEREFORE that person will live.
I'm glad to see that this problem should be addressed and I am eager to
hear the views of others.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: David Moore <dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 11:43:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Rom 1:17
On Sat, 3 Feb 1996, Carl W. Conrad wrote:
> On 2/3/96, John Moe wrote:
>
> > I have been wrestling with DIKAIOS EK PISTEWS ZHSETAI. I have always
> > taken EK PISTEWS wtih ZHSETAI, but I am wondering why it should not be
> > taken with DIKAIOS. At Gal 3:11 Paul has building his argument on
> > Abraham and quotes Gen 15:6. DIKAIOS EK PISTEWOS is the point he is
> > making there. Is there some gramatical reason that Paul's use of this
> > phrase from Hab. 2:4 should not be taken this way. Since this seems to
> > not be a strick quotation of the Heb or the LXX as we have them, I do
> > not think that either of those should controle the understanding of
> > Paul's N.T. Use.
> > Thanks for any light you can cast.
>
> By terms of "normal" Greek grammar, EK PISTEWS in Rom 1:17 SHOULD be
> construed with ZHSETAI because it is in predicative position. For it to
> mean "the one who is righteous by faith, it should be written hO EK PISTEWS
> DIKAIOS. It has,in fact, always bothered me that Paul's central doctrine
> appears to be based upon a grammatical misconstruction of his LXX proof
> text as cited. As it stands, it would certainly appear to mean that the one
> who is righteous will live (i.e. eschatological life, although I don't
> think that was intended in the original formulation in Hab.) through faith;
> it does NOT appear to mean that faith makes the person righteous and
> THEREFORE that person will live.
>
> I'm glad to see that this problem should be addressed and I am eager to
> hear the views of others.
It may be helpful to take a little more of the context of Habakuk
2:4b. If one takes this context from the Hebrew, rather than the LXX,
the message is that the person whose soul is not upright manifests pride,
but the righteous shall live by his faith. This is in keeping with
Paul's emphasis regarding justification which also contrasts boastful
pride with faithful confidence in God.
It would seem that "by faith" should be construed with "shall
live" rather than "righteous" (See Keil & Delitzsch, _ad loc._). But I
don't see that this goes against Paul's message, if one allows that the
Apostle had the context of the contrast between the prideful attitude and
faith in mind.
David L. Moore Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida of the Assemblies of God
dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Department of Education
http://members.aol.com/dvdmoore
------------------------------
From: Carlton Winbery <winberyc@popalex1.linknet.net>
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 10:25:02 +0400
Subject: Re: Rom 1:17
Carl Conrad wrote;
>On 2/3/96, John Moe wrote:
>
>> I have been wrestling with DIKAIOS EK PISTEWS ZHSETAI. I have always
>> taken EK PISTEWS wtih ZHSETAI, but I am wondering why it should not be
>> taken with DIKAIOS. At Gal 3:11 Paul has building his argument on
>> Abraham and quotes Gen 15:6. DIKAIOS EK PISTEWOS is the point he is
>> making there. Is there some gramatical reason that Paul's use of this
>> phrase from Hab. 2:4 should not be taken this way. Since this seems to
>> not be a strick quotation of the Heb or the LXX as we have them, I do
>> not think that either of those should controle the understanding of
>> Paul's N.T. Use.
>> Thanks for any light you can cast.
>
>By terms of "normal" Greek grammar, EK PISTEWS in Rom 1:17 SHOULD be
>construed with ZHSETAI because it is in predicative position. For it to
>mean "the one who is righteous by faith, it should be written hO EK PISTEWS
>DIKAIOS. It has,in fact, always bothered me that Paul's central doctrine
>appears to be based upon a grammatical misconstruction of his LXX proof
>text as cited. As it stands, it would certainly appear to mean that the one
>who is righteous will live (i.e. eschatological life, although I don't
>think that was intended in the original formulation in Hab.) through faith;
>it does NOT appear to mean that faith makes the person righteous and
>THEREFORE that person will live.
I think that the reason that some commentators have wanted to see the
possibility that the "quote" from Hab. was understood by Paul to be the
"one who is righteous by faith" is that it fits very neatly with the way
some outline Rom. 1-8. Chapters 1-4 indicate that a person is made right
with God by faith apart from law, and chps 5-8 deal with the life of a
person who is right with God.
However, I would agree with Carl that he would surely have written hO EK
PISTEWS DIKAIOS ZHSETAI or hO DIKAIOS hO EK PISTEWS ZHSETAI if that is what
he meant. There are many examples where the genitive (ablative) with the
prepositions EK, APO, PARA, or hUPO precedes the verb form with which it is
used. (James 1:13; I John 5:1, Matt. 21:42)
Carlton L. Winbery
Prof. Religion
LA College, Pineville, La
winberyc@popalex1.linknet.net
------------------------------
From: Edward Hobbs <EHOBBS@wellesley.edu>
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 16:41:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: A further (dissenting) reply on Romans 1:17
John Moe's extremely insightful (and apparently now inciteful!) inquiry brought
replies from two excellent scholars on our List. I am impelled to reply as
well, since this is an extremely important text (and issue).
Habakkuk 2:4---
Hebrew: WTSDDYQ B'MUNTHO YHYH:
But-the-righteous by-his-faith(fulness) shall-live.
LXX: hO DE DIKAIOS EK PISTEWS MOU ZHSETAI.
But the righteous by my faith(fulness) shall-live.
Rom. 1:17--- hO DE DIKAIOS EK PISTEWS ZHSETAI.
(Omitting Hebrew "HIS" and LXX "MY")
Paul drops the HIS (Hebrew) or MY (LXX) to universalize the statement
in Hab. 2:4. [The fact that W, the Freer MS. of the Minor Prophets, omits
MOU does not indicate that Paul's LXX lacked the word; it is almost
certainly a Christian scribe's correction, done VERY early--third century.]
Both Carl and Carlton have suggested ways Paul SHOULD have rewritten
this text if he thought it meant "The righteous through faith shall live."
But I would argue that he did not feel free to rewrite the text. Paul
does not rewrite his citations from the LXX to conform to his grammar.
E.g., he uses the future ZHSW, not the classical ZHSOMAI, except when
citing LXX, where he retains the future middle form (classical). See
Zerwick, Section 226. He almost certainly could read Hebrew, and I would
be incredulous if I were told that he didn't even bother to look in his
Bible(s) for one of the two most central texts in his thinking. Hence he
saw both "HIS" and "MY" as modifiers of "FAITH(FULNESS)", thus a legitimate
variable he could omit to universalize the text.
(And Carl, I would incline to think of this is the MOTTO for
Romans, not a "proof text.")
Now, how did Paul understand this text? (I won't refer you to my
piece on this published just forty years ago, since I can't find it here
myself.) Carlton put it correctly when he said that some commentators base
their interpretation (The one who is righteous through faith shall live) on
the structure of Romans. The modern commentator who fought hardest for
this was Anders Nygren; his _Romerbrevet_ argued the case at great length
and with substantial evidence. What question is Paul offering to answer in
Romans? Is it, "How shall the righteous live? -- Answer: They shall live
by faith." Or is it, "How can anyone find life, the goal of all human
striving? I.e., Who shall live? Answer: The righteous through faith shall
live."
Ch. 1-4 -- The righteous through faith
Ch. 5-8 (or 5-15) -- Shall live
And in each case, he argues first negatively (what righteous through faith
is not: it is not UNrighteousness, nor is it righteousness through
law/works) (what life is not: not being under the power of wrath, sin, law,
or death) then what it IS.
No point in repeating Nygren (my copies of the original Swedish and
the ET are in my office, not here in my cold basement, so I couldn't
anyway, could I?); you can all read him.
But he convinced me, long ago; and he convinced the RSV translators in
1946. Alas, the NRSV went back to Luther's interpretation, and consigned
Lutheran Bishop Nygren to the margin. But then they usually got Paul
wrong, I suspect.
A final point on word order: Carl said,
'By terms of "normal" Greek grammar, EK PISTEWS in Rom. 1:17 SHOULD be
construed with ZHSETAI . . . .'
But as Carl well knows, lots of things in Hellenistic writers,
including Paul, do not follow classical canons; and this example is
probably one of them. Whether Paul would have moved EK PISTEWS before
DIKAIOS if he felt free to re-write his Biblical text, I don't know; but
I'm somewhat doubtful. The issue isn't whether this text COULD mean "The
righteous shall live by faith," but whether it HAS to mean that. In my
opinion, it doesn't--it can quite plausibly be read "The righteous through
faith shall live," probably with the same ambiguity as that English
sentence.
Just in case you don't know, I shudder to disagree with Carl on
grammar. But then, I am -- or used to be -- a grammarian myself; so I
decided to "Sin boldly!" (If sin it be.)
Edward Hobbs
------------------------------
From: "Edgar M. Krentz" <emkrentz@mcs>
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 13:54:10 -0600
Subject: Re: Rom 1:17
>On 2/3/96, John Moe wrote:
>
>> I have been wrestling with DIKAIOS EK PISTEWS ZHSETAI. I have always
>> taken EK PISTEWS wtih ZHSETAI, but I am wondering why it should not be
>> taken with DIKAIOS. At Gal 3:11 Paul has building his argument on
>> Abraham and quotes Gen 15:6. DIKAIOS EK PISTEWOS is the point he is
>> making there. Is there some gramatical reason that Paul's use of this
>> phrase from Hab. 2:4 should not be taken this way. Since this seems to
>> not be a strick quotation of the Heb or the LXX as we have them, I do
>> not think that either of those should controle the understanding of
>> Paul's N.T. Use.
>> Thanks for any light you can cast.
To which Carl Conrad replied:
>By terms of "normal" Greek grammar, EK PISTEWS in Rom 1:17 SHOULD be
>construed with ZHSETAI because it is in predicative position. For it to
>mean "the one who is righteous by faith, it should be written hO EK PISTEWS
>DIKAIOS. It has,in fact, always bothered me that Paul's central doctrine
>appears to be based upon a grammatical misconstruction of his LXX proof
>text as cited. As it stands, it would certainly appear to mean that the one
>who is righteous will live (i.e. eschatological life, although I don't
>think that was intended in the original formulation in Hab.) through faith;
>it does NOT appear to mean that faith makes the person righteous and
>THEREFORE that person will live.
Carl's explanation is on target. The predicative position of EK PISTEWS
argues against it modifying hOI DIKAIOI.
But I wonder how Carl [or others] might react to the suggestion that we
have here an exampale of SUNTAXIS APO KOINOU, i.e. that EK PISTEWS here has
a double significance; that rhetorical device would allow you to apply it
to both phrases. -- Just raising the possibility!
One might ask how each interpretation agrees with Paul in Romans 4, that is
ask what the phrase might "sum up" in advance.
Edgar Krentz, New Testament
Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
1100 EAST 55TH STREET
CHICAGO, IL 60615
Tel: 3112-256-0752; (H) 312-947-8105
------------------------------
From: Will Wagers <wagers@computek.net>
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 21:45:01 -0600
Subject: Nothing to do with B-Greek
Sorry about this post - it's got nothing to do with B-Greek.
On another list, I was complaining of "man-hating" and I could find no such
word. Another list member suggested "misandry."
Is there a proper term?
What about "misandry"?
You can reply off list if you think I am imposing.
Thx, Will
------------------------------
From: Ellen Fox <17ellenfox@cc.mice.uvr.edu>
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 21:42:24 -0500
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------------------------------
From: Ellen Fox <4ellenfox@cc.mice.uvr.edu>
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 22:57:54 -0500
Subject: ===>> FREE 1 yr. USA Magazine Sub sent worldwide- up to $50.00 value!!!
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Country:
Work Tel. #:
Work Fax #:
Home Tel. #:
Home Fax #:
How did you hear about us (name of person who referred you or the area of
the internet that you saw us mentioned in): Referral by: Ellen Fox.
020396-l
Name of USA mags you currently get on the newsstand or in the store:
Name of USA mags you currently get on the newsstand or in the store:
Name of USA mags you currently get on a subscription basis, through the mail:
Name of USA mags you would like price quotes on when we call you:
Catalogue format desired (list "1," "2," "3" or "4"):
*------------cut here/end--------------------------------------------*
Catalogue Format Options:
1. 19-Part email- can be read by EVERYONE (~525 K Total).
2. For more advanced computer users: attached text file ~525K - you
must know how to download an attached text file and then be able to
open it with your word processor. If in doubt, don't ask for this
version. This isn't for internet *newbies.* Better to order option 1
and spend a few minutes pasting them into one whole text document
with your word processor, than to waste hours trying to figure how
to deal with this option.
3. For more advanced Macintosh computer users: compressed attached
text file, created with a Stuffit(tm) self-extracting archive (.sea),
~133K. Can be decompressed by any Macintosh computer user; no
special expansion software or knowledge of Stuffit (tm) needed. You
just double-click on the file icon and it automatically expands
(unstuffs). This is for more advanced mac computer users only, as
you still have to know how to deal with an attached file. It will cut
your download time by 75%. Expands out to the same ~525K file in
option #2. See option #2 for more info on what you will need to be
able to do.
4. For expert computer users: compressed attached text file, created with
Stuffit(tm), ~114K. Can be decompressed by any computer user who
has expansion software to decompress (expand) Stuffit(tm) (.sit) files.
This is for more advanced computer users only and will cut your
download time by 78%. Expands out to the same ~525K file in option
#2. See option #2 for more info on what you will need to be able to do.
Hi fellow 'netters,
My name is Ellen Fox and I recently started using a magazine subscription
club in the USA that has a FREE 1 yr. magazine subscription deal with your
first paid order- and I have been very pleased with them. They have over
1,500 different USA titles that they can ship to any country on a
subscription basis. As for computer magazines from the USA, they more of
a selection than I ever knew even existed. They have magazines for most
every area of interest in their list of 1,500 titles.
Within the USA, for their USA members, they are cheaper than all their
competitors and even the publishers themselves. This is their price
guarantee.
Overseas, on the average, they are generally around one-fourth to one-half
of what the newsstands overseas charge locally for USA magazines. On some
titles they are as little as one-tenth of what the newsstands charge. They
feel that mgazines should not be a luxury overseas. In the USA, people
buy magazines and then toss them after reading them for just a few minutes
or hours. They are so cheap in the USA! Well, this company would like to
make it the same way for their overseas members. They are also cheaper
than all their competitors in the USA and overseas, including the
publishers themselves! This is their price guarantee. Around one-half
their business comes from overseas, so they are very patient with new
members who only speak limited English as a 2nd language.
Their prices are so cheap because they deal direct with each publisher and
cut-out all the middlemen.
They will send you their DELUXE EMAIL CATALOGUE (around 525K-big and
juicey) !)...if you completely fill out the form above. It has lists of
all the freebies, lists of all the titles they sell, titles broken down by
categories and detailed descriptions on nearly 1,200 of the titles that
they sell.
Please do not email me as I am just a happy customer and a *busy* student.
I don't have time to even complete my thesis in time, let alone run my
part-time software business! Please fill out the above form and carefully
follow the intructions above to get it to them via fax or smail.
They guarantee to beat all their competitors' prices. Sometimes they are
less than half of the next best deal I have been able to find and other
times, just a little cheaper - but I have never found a lower rate yet.
They assured me that if I ever do, they will beat it.
They have been very helpful and helped me with all my address changes as I
haved moved from one country to another.
They have a deal where you can get a free 1 yr. sub to a new magazine from
a special list of over 295 popular titles published in the USA. They will
give you this free 1 yr. sub when you place your first paid order with them
to a renewal or new subscription to any of the over 1,500 different popular
USA titles they sell.
They can arrange delivery to virtually any country and I think they have
clients in around 45 or 46 countries now. Outside the USA there is a
charge for FPH (foreign postage and handling) (on both paid and freebie
subs) that varies from magazine to magazine. I have found their staff to
be very friendly and courteous. They even helped me with an address change
when I moved from one country to another.
The owner thinks of his service as a "club" and his clients as "members"
(even though there is no extra fee to become a member - your first purchase
automatically makes you a member) and he is real picky about who he accepts
as a new member. When he sets you up as a new member, he himself calls
you personally on the phone to explain how he works his deal, or sometimes
he has one of his assistants call. He is kind of quirky sometimes - he
insists on setting up new members by phone so he can say hi to everyone (I
sure wouldn't want to have his phone bills!), but you can place future
orders (after your first order) via E-mail.
He has some really friendly young ladies working for him, who seem to know
just as much as he does about this magazine stuff. If you live overseas,
he will even call you there, as long as you are interested, but I think he
still makes all his overseas calls on the weekends, I guess cause the long
distance rates are cheaper then.
He only likes to take new members from referrals from satisfied existing
members and he does virtually no advertising. When I got set-up, they had
a 2-3 week waiting list for new members to be called back so that they
could join up. (Once you are an existing member, they help you immediately
when you call. ) I think they are able to get back to prospective new
members the same day or within a few days now, as they have increased
their staff. I am not sure about this.........but if you email the above
form to them, that is the way to get started!
They will send you their DELUXE EMAIL CATALOGUE (around 525K-big and
juicey) !)...if you completely fill out the form above. It has lists of
all the freebies, lists of all the titles they sell, titles broken down by
categories and detailed descriptions on nearly 1,200 of the titles that
they sell.
They then send you email that outlines how his club works and the list of
free choices that you can choose from, as well as the entire list of what
he sells; and then they will give you a quick (3-5 minute) friendly,
no-pressure no-obligation call to explain everything to you personally and
answer all your questions.
Once you get in, you'll love them. I do.
Sincerely,
Ellen Fox
ps. please forward a copy of this message to all your friends on the net
who you think might be interested in it! It is a great deal! If you join
and then they join after you, you will earn a free 1 yr. subscription for
each new person you get to join after you join! If you exceed 25
referrals, they let you use them to give away as gifts, for Christmas,
Chanukah or any other occasion. Please be kind enough to mention my name
when you join. I will then get a free magazine for a year for referring
you.
Thank you.
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #101
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