[Prev][Next][Index][Thread]
b-greek-digest V1 #118
b-greek-digest Sunday, 18 February 1996 Volume 01 : Number 118
In this issue:
Re: Irenaeus
Re: Matthew 24:30
Re: Irenaeus
Protevangelium of James
NEOS OLYMPOS
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Domenico LEMBO <lembodo@ds.cised.unina.it>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 13:35:02 -0100
Subject: Re: Irenaeus
On 02/15/96 Michael Holmes wrote:
>Yesterday I was messing around with Irenaeus, Adv. Haer. 1.8.1 [= ref in
>AnteNicene Fathers; TLG ref = 1.1.15], and am curious to see what you
>might make of a few phrases. To phrase things in terms of Carl Conrad's
>excellent recent comments, I think (hope?) I get the gist of the Greek,
>but coming up with a satisfactory ET is another matter.
"They attempt to adapt [PROSARMOZEIN] things (either parables of the Lord,
or sayings of the prophets, or words of the apostles) to their own sayings,
in order that their scheme might not seem to be lacking in support: THN MEN
TACIN KAI TON hEIRMON TWN GRAFWN hUPERBAINONTES, KAI, hOSON EF' hEAUTOIS,
LUONTES TA MELH THS ALHQEIAS. METAFEROUSI DE KAI METAPLATTOUSI, KAI ALLO EC
ALLOU POIOUNTES ECAPATWSI POLLOUS THi TWN EFARMOZOMENWN KURIAKWN LOGIWN
KAKOSUNQETWi SOFIAi. ... [several lines of text] ... EPEITA RhHMATA KAI
LECEIS KAI PARABOLAS hOQEN KAI POQEN APOSPWNTES, EFARMOZEIN BOULONTAI TOIS
MUQOIS AUTWN (v.l., hEAUTWN) TA LOGIA TOU QEOU.
Key phrases I'm interested in (which I'll number for ease of reference):
1) how much difference in meaning is there between TACIN ("order") and
hEIRMON ("sequence"? "connection"?)
2) LUONTES TA MELH THS ALHQEIAS: "destroying the integrity of the truth"?
3) METAFEROUSI DE KAI METAPLATTOUSI: roughly "they change and they
counterfeit;" would it be appropriate to take METAFEROUSI as "interpret
metaphorically" in this context?
4) THi TWN EFARMOZOMENWN KURIAKWN LOGIWN KAKOSUNQETWi SOFIAi: KAKOSUNQETWi,
acc. to LSJ (p. 863), is a rhetorical term, "ill-composed," "ill put
together," neither of which seems to fit too well as a modifier of SOFIAi,
which in this context =? For the phrase, perhaps something like "their
poorly-organized understanding of the adapted sayings of the Lord"?
5) hOQEN KAI POQEN a) what does the combo mean; I didn't notice an example
of the combo in LSJ, which makes them sound like synonyms; b) does the
combo modify what precedes or follows it? (APOSPAW here = "take out of
context"?)
Thanks,
Mike Holmes
*******************************************************
I do not have Irenaeus in front of me. However, since You quote a large
sequence, maybe there is enough material for some comments.
>1) how much difference in meaning is there between TACIN ("order") and
>hEIRMON ("sequence"? "connection"?)
HEIRMOS only says that in a certain discourse those given words (sentences,
textual units...) follow each other, TAXIS says that there is a plan. But,
what is more, this is a hendyadis. Irenaeus' point is that those words
(sentences, textual units...) are not to be regarded as a mere sequence:
they are a well-planned sequence, they are a whole discourse. Hence they
may not be taken out of contextx. N.B. The Greek for "composition" is
SYNTAXIS.
======================================
>2) LUONTES TA MELH THS ALHQEIAS: "destroying the integrity of the truth"?
Yes. Or rather: "upsetting and destroying the arrangement (hence the
meaning) of the (Holy, True) Discourse as a whole". The "disiecta membra"
are not the whole "corpus". This applies to a discourse as much as to a
biological whole.
======================================
>3) METAFEROUSI DE KAI METAPLATTOUSI: roughly "they change and they
>counterfeit;" would it be appropriate to take METAFEROUSI as "interpret
>metaphorically" in this context?
In *both* verbs there is a strongly negative point. "They make an
alteration and a counterfeit (of the real meaning)"
======================================
>4) THi TWN EFARMOZOMENWN KURIAKWN LOGIWN KAKOSUNQETWi SOFIAi:
>KAKOSUNQETWi, acc. to LSJ (p. 863), is a rhetorical term, "ill-composed,"
>"ill put together," neither of which seems to fit too well as a modifier
>of SOFIAi, which in this context =? For the phrase, perhaps something like
>"their poorly-organized understanding of the adapted sayings of the Lord"?
>
Here SOPHIA means, more or less, "skill". The KAKOSUNQETOS SOPHIA is the
"ill-conceived (damned cunning) rhetorical skill", that one that enables to
misuse the sayings of the Lord, violating their original arrangement and
spirit and transforming them into a new (inappropriate) discourse. N.B
Qualifying the very rhetorical skill as KAKOSUNQETOS, i.e. "ill-conceived",
is a hypallage. Properly speaking, KAKOSUNQETOS is the discourse itself.
On the other hand, this is not the rhetorical skill as such, i.e. a mere
faculty. It is rather the skill that shows and is embedded in the discourse
of Scripture as badly re-arranged and re-interpreted: i.e. in the
EPHARMOZOMENOI KURIAKOI LOGIOI. So KAKOSUNQETOS is not altogether a
hypallage. Being so is a property of te new (abominable) discourse.
======================================
>5) hOQEN KAI POQEN a) what does the combo mean; I didn't notice an example
>of the combo in LSJ, which makes them sound like synonyms; b) does the
>combo modify what precedes or follows it? (APOSPAW here = "take out of
>context"?)
Well, hOQEN is relative, POQEN is indefinite and modifyies hOQEN: "wherever
they come from".
*******************************************************
My two cents
D. Lembo
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Domenico LEMBO Universita' di Napoli
lembodo@ds.cised.unina.it
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 07:16:25 -0600
Subject: Re: Matthew 24:30
On 2/16/96, Jan S Haugland wrote:
> Carl Conrad said:
> >When the sign appears (beginning of vs. 30) ALL THE NATIONS ON EARTH
>
> Or, "All the tribes of the land"
>
> >will beat their breasts--and they will see the Son of Man coming on
> >the clouds of heaven WITH POWER AND MUCH GLORY. Then in vs. 31 there
> >is the gathering of the "elect" from all the earth.
>
> Earth in the meaning "known earth". The idea of a planet was not known
> among those who wrote the NT.
You are of course absolutely right; they probably had no notion of what
Eratosthenes knew. Nevertheless I think the intent of the speaker/writer
was to make that prophecy universal in its reference.
> I had decided not to post about this topic again here. I just blew my
> last new years resolution :-)
Ah, well--I don't even make such resolutions any more; in fact, I sort of
think the notion of cyclical renewal on a solar anniversary is a pagan
relic. ;-)
Welcome back, Jan.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: Domenico LEMBO <lembodo@ds.cised.unina.it>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:13:43 -0100
Subject: Re: Irenaeus
I apologize: in my last message "EPHARMOZOMENOI KURIAKOI LOGIOI" should of
course read "EPHARMOZOMENA KURIAKA LOGIA".
D. Lembo
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Domenico LEMBO Universita' di Napoli
lembodo@ds.cised.unina.it
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
------------------------------
From: TICHY@cmtfnw.upol.cz
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 17:51:44 MET+2
Subject: Protevangelium of James
In the Protevangelium of James (20.4) I found the text hEWS
ERThHi hO PAIS EIS hIEROSALHMA ("until the boy comes to Jerusalem").
If I'm not mistaken the form ERThHi (instead of ELThHi) has the
aorist stem that occurs as a (more usual) variant in Modern Greek. Is
this occurence in the Protevangelium of James an exception or can the
aorist stem ERTh- be found in the Hellenistic Greek more frequently?
LSJ and New Testament Greek lexicons (including Bauer's 6th edition)
say nothing about it.
Ladislav Tichy
Faculty of Theology
Palacky University
Olomouc
Czech Republic
------------------------------
From: DragoonD@aol.com
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 22:24:53 -0500
Subject: NEOS OLYMPOS
- --PART.BOUNDARY.0.8468.mail02.mail.aol.com.824613892
Content-ID: <0_8468_824613892@mail02.mail.aol.com.218761>
Content-type: text/plain
cc
- --PART.BOUNDARY.0.8468.mail02.mail.aol.com.824613892
Content-ID: <0_8468_824613892@mail02.mail.aol.com.218762>
Content-type: text/plain;
name="NONEWLT2.TXT"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Welcome to NEOS OLYMPOS
The Magazine of the Greco-Roman Mythic Revival
=0D
Neos Olympos is the magazine that celebrates the Greco-Roman Mythic Reviv=
al. Far from being mere literary relics from a bygone age, the mythic, sp=
iritual and philosophical impulses that existed in classical antiquity ar=
e alive and well in our world today. Modern humans still gather to worshi=
p the Olympians. Transpersonal psychologists have taught us to identify t=
he Greek gods, goddesses and monsters that dwell within our psyches. Tale=
- -tellers, using media undreamed of by our ancestors, still recount the pa=
st, present and future exploits of Hellenic deities, demigods, heroes and=
fabulous beasts. The staff of Neos Olympos would like you to join us in =
celebrating this Classical Revival.
=
Starting with Issue #1 (Summer 1996), Neos Olympos will feature The Abato=
n, a section dedicated to the membership of the Ancient and Hermetic Orde=
r of Asclepiads (A.H.O.A.); and XAOS, a forum for the Temple of Eris. In=
future issues, other Greco-Roman organizations will be joining us, sprea=
ding their messages in the pages of Neos Olympos.
=0D
It is our hope that these forums will allow for better communication and =
increased interaction between the above listed organizations and their me=
mbers, as well as allowing for a greater degree of networking within the =
Greco-Roman inspired spiritual community as a whole. =
=0D
Neos Olympos is a quarterly publication. Each issue priced at $3.00. A o=
ne year's subscription is $10.00 in the USA (a savings of $2.00 off the I=
ndividual Issue Price) and $15.00 (US currency) outside the USA. =
If additional information is needed please feel free to send your inquire=
s or E-mail to:
For subscription please send a check or money order to:
=0D
P.K. Venetis E-Mail
c/o NEOS OLYMPOS D.J. Chaffers
P.O. Box 751122 or DragoonD@AOL.com
Forest Hills, NY 11375-9998
USA
=0D
If you contribute poetry, art work, photos, stories or articles to Neos O=
lympos, you will receive the issues in which they appear for free!
=0D
So, subscribe today! And write in to tell us about your Olympian experien=
ces, beliefs, musings, stray thoughts, inspirations, wild theories, ritua=
l practices, elaborate philosophies or divine revelations.
=0D
You are no longer alone. May the Gods be with you!
=0D
An Argonaut/Dragon=92s Lair Publication
- --PART.BOUNDARY.0.8468.mail02.mail.aol.com.824613892--
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #118
*****************************
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
To unsubscribe from this list write
majordomo@virginia.edu
with "unsubscribe b-greek-digest" as your message content. For other
automated services write to the above address with the message content
"help".
For further information, you can write the owner of the list at
owner-b-greek@virginia.edu
You can send mail to the entire list via the address:
b-greek@virginia.edu