From: David John Marotta (djm5g@virginia.edu)
Date: Wed Jul 24 1996 - 08:45:02 EDT
>Or does each member of the B-Greek list have his/her own perspective on
>these questions? If so, to what extent does that influence our ability
>to discuss these texts in such a manner that real progress is made in
>understanding them?
As List Owner I will answer that question. First meta-questions should
come to me and only discussed on the list as a last resort. This question
is one which a newcomer should *not* raise, but rather watch the list
and figure it out. Lists spend a lot of time and effort on defining
themselves, being guided by their owner only for major course corrections.
First, the list for those who consider the Bible authoritative in their
lives is the BIBLE list. B-GREEK is for the scholarly, from inerrant
believing seminary professors to the completely faithless University
professor. <smile> One might think that those on the Bible list would
therefore have less disputes than those one this list, but the exact
opposite has been true. It is easier to glean wisdom from a scholar
whose presuppositions you may differ on than from a non-scholar
whose conclusions may not be logically consistant with their assumptions.
We can now end this thread and discuss the Greek NT.
David John Marotta
List Owner
David John Marotta, Medical Center Computing, Stacey Hall
Univ of Virginia (804) 982-3718 wrk INTERNET: djm5g@virginia.edu
Box 512 Med Cntr (804) 924-5261 msg PRODIGY: KCMR45A
C'ville VA 22908 (804) 296-7209 fax IBM US: usuvarg8
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To: b-greek-digest@virginia.edu
Subject: b-greek-digest V1 #300
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b-greek-digest Wednesday, 24 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 300
In this issue:
Oops! (Message sent to wrong place)
Re: 1 Tim 2:15
Re: 1 Tim 2:15
Re: Logos Program
unsubscribe
Hyperliteral Site Plans
Re: Logos Program
How to receive B-GREEK-DIGEST
Newcomer question...
PAS MALLON in 1Tim 4:10
Re: Newcomer question...
Re: 1 Tim 2:15
Re: Logos Program
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Micheal Palmer <bla00161@mail.wvnet.edu>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 01:45:31 -0500
Subject: Oops! (Message sent to wrong place)
I appologize for sending a note to the entire list which was intended for
one person. My note to John Oaklands should not have gone to the list.
(Parts of it were probably incomprehensible to most of you anyway since
they were written in Spanish.) I will try to be more careful in the future.
Micheal Palmer
Micheal W. Palmer
------------------------------
From: Micheal Palmer <bla00161@mail.wvnet.edu>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 01:46:12 -0500
Subject: Re: 1 Tim 2:15
At 2:10 PM 7/23/96 -0400, KULIKOVSKY, Andrew wrote:
[SNIP]...
>Carlton,
>
[SNIP]...
>
>I don't know how you came to the conclusion that Paul was not the
>writer...
>For a start, the introduction states it was Paul (and incidentally, in
>virtually
>the same format as Romans and Galations). The close relationship
>between Paul and Timothy is alluded to throughout the NT
>(eg. Acts 20:4, Romans 16:21, 1 Corinthians 4:17,
>2 Corinthians 1:1, Philipians 1:1, 2:22, Colossians 1:1,
>1 Thess. 1:1, 3:2)
>
>Surely, Paul was writing to his beloved disciple, co-worker
>and friend.
Carlton's conclusion that Paul did not write the letter is not unusual. It
is shared by a large majority of critical biblical scholars. The vocabulary
of the letter has significant differences from the letters known to be by
Paul. The structure of church organization assumed in the letter seems more
formalized than in Paul's time, etc. Of course, none of these arguments are
%100 conclusive, but they do carry a good bit of weight for many people.
Micheal Palmer
Micheal W. Palmer
------------------------------
From: kclay@wwd.net
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 01:57:56 EST
Subject: Re: 1 Tim 2:15
** Reply to note from Micheal Palmer <bla00161@mail.wvnet.edu> Tue, 23 Jul
1996 01:46:12 -0500
>
> [SNIP..SNIP..SNIP]
>
> Carlton's conclusion that Paul did not write the letter
> is not unusual. It is shared by a large majority of
> critical biblical scholars. The vocabulary of the
> letter has significant differences from the letters
> known to be by Paul. The structure of church
> organization assumed in the letter seems more
> formalized than in Paul's time, etc. Of course, none of
> these arguments are %100 conclusive, but they do carry
> a good bit of weight for many people.
Luke T. Johnson (of the Jesus2000 Debate) is forthcoming with a commentary
on the pastorals. I have heard him speak and he provides convincing proof
for Pauline authorship of the pastorals. It will be interesting to see how
his views are taken but current scholarship that believes Pauline authorship
a myth.
keith
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deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin. 1706-1790.
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------------------------------
From: CleonLR@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 06:54:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Logos Program
Could anyone provide the email address for the LOGOS software program? What
have your experiences been with it?
Sincerely,
Cleon L. Rogers III
Wetzlar, Germany
------------------------------
From: Neilglot@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 08:12:18 -0400
Subject: unsubscribe
Greetings,
Pls take me off the mailing list. Thanks for the service. NeilgG.
------------------------------
From: wagers@iglobal.net
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 07:20:38 -0500
Subject: Hyperliteral Site Plans
Hello,
For those of you who have expressed interest and support for the
Hyperliteral Page, I wanted to let you know that we have plans
for a Hyperliteral site (but, one never knows when dependent upon
the kindness of strangers). We have nine volunteers for the
technical aspects of the site -- HTML, graphics, CGI. So, with time
and luck, it will be a nice, interactive resource.
In the mean time, our demonstration page is still available at:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2883/Hyperliteral.html
Current projects plans include:
1. Hyperliteral theory and methods, illustrated by examples
It will be up to me to try and clarify the goals and
methods of the project. Others are helping with their
experiences with hyperliteral translations.
2. Hyperliteral Atheological Dictionary - a searchable resource
emphasizing the mundane, atheological meanings of terms and
the relation to the theological meaning, e.g. the recently
discussed SWZW (B-Greek). The scientifical meanings, if any,
are of particular interest.
3. Hyperliteral New Covenant - an unvarnished, atheological version.
The Hyperliteral Atheological Dictionary is a nice project for individuals,
because each entry is a sort of mini-research paper requiring only
reasonable amounts of time in areas of specific interest to the individual.
Any volunteers ?
We hope to have our own mailing lists in a month or two. Meanwhile,
please direct any comments to me off-list.
Regards,
Will Wagers,
Hyperliteral Project
PS If anyone is interested, we could use essays on "Eek" and "trot" !
------------------------------
From: BBezdek@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:09:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Logos Program
In a message dated 96-07-23 06:54:10 EDT, you write:
>Could anyone provide the email address for the LOGOS software program? What
>have your experiences been with it?
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Cleon L. Rogers III
>Wetzlar, Germany
Logos Research Systems, Inc.
(800) 87-LOGOS
(360) 679-6575
Fax (360) 675-8169
NewsWire@logos.com
http://www.logos.com
tech@logos.com tech support
http://unlocks.logos.com to unlock titles 24 hrs
I have used the hardrive version 6.1 (still have it) and am presently using
the CD rom version at level 3. It is a fine program, I have not explored all
the possibilities.
Byron
------------------------------
From: David John Marotta <djm5g@virginia.edu>
Date: 23 Jul 96 10:10:15 EDT
Subject: How to receive B-GREEK-DIGEST
The B-GREEK list currently has 300 subscribers for the immediate list
and 225 subscribers for the digested version for a total of 525 subscribers.
For those of you (the majority) who are subscribed to the immediate version,
I recommend that you unsubscribe from the immediate version and subscribe
to the digested version. You will receive messages collected together
no less frequently than daily. You won't lose anything, and it will make
your email easier to find, as the header will always be the same for this
list.
To do this send a note to majordomo@virginia.edu and in the body:
UNSUBSCRIBE B-GREEK
SUBSCRIBE B-GREEK-DIGEST
END
Let me know only if you have problems.
David John Marotta, Medical Center Computing, Stacey Hall
Univ of Virginia (804) 982-3718 wrk INTERNET: djm5g@virginia.edu
Box 512 Med Cntr (804) 924-5261 msg PRODIGY: KCMR45A
C'ville VA 22908 (804) 296-7209 fax IBM US: usuvarg8
------------------------------
From: Jeffery W Grams <jgrams@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 11:45:21 EDT
Subject: Newcomer question...
I have been observing and enjoying the discussion revolving around 1
Timothy 2:15 - yet I have a general question that *does* pertain to how
one translates this passage...
What basic assumptions does this "B-Greek" list accept regarding the text
itself?
1. Is the Word of God to be considered Verbally Inspired?
2. Who is to be considered the author of a given text?
3. Who then is to be considered the intended receptor of a given text?
4. What time period was a given text written in? Was it revised later?
Or does each member of the B-Greek list have his/her own perspective on
these questions? If so, to what extent does that influence our ability
to discuss these texts in such a manner that real progress is made in
understanding them?
I hope I am not being too forward for a newcomer, and I am sure that
there are many unasked questions that could join the others above, yet if
I am going to learn/participate effectively I thought I should ask...
JGrams@juno.com
Rev. Jeffery W. Grams - St. Paul's Lutheran Church and School - Fulda,
Minnesota
"Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you
also were called,
and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses"
[1 Tim. 6:12]
------------------------------
From: "David L. Moore" <dvdmoore@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:41:48 -0400
Subject: PAS MALLON in 1Tim 4:10
While studying a somewhat odd expression in 1Cor. 14:18, I came
across something in 1Tim. that seems significant.
I did a Gramcord search on the expression PAS...MALLON and came
up with only one reference besides 1Cor. 14:18. It is the statement in
1Tim. 4:10 which reads, in part, hOS ESTIN SWTHR PANTWN ANQRWPWN MALISTA
PISTWN. This had also always seemed a puzzling passage, so I wondered if
by comparing notes between the two instances of this expression, some
additional light on their interpretation might be forthcoming.
I found that, by applying the interpretation of PAS...MALLON from
1Cor. 14:18 to 1Tim. 4:10, the latter made a great deal more sense. If,
for instance we understand 1Tim. 4:10b as "who, in preference to all
humanity, is Savior of those who believe," the first part of this verse
suddenly comes into focus as an explanation of why Christians live
differently from the rest of humanity.
Commentators have traditionally taken hOS ESTIN SWTHR PANTWN
ANQRWPWN as a clause apart, understanding MALISTA PISTWN as an adjunct,
explanatory phrase, if not an afterthought. The opinion among some is
that the emphasis this interpretation places on the universality of God's
salvation is a post-Pauline development which originated when it was
realized that actual believers were only a fraction of mankind (J. N. D.
Kelly, _The Pastoral Epistles_ [Peabody, Mass.: Hendirckson, 1960] p.
102).
Interpreting PAS MALLON as analogous in meaning to its sense in
1Cor. 14:18 makes PANTWN ANQRWPWN a subordinate rather than dominant
phrase and focuses on MALISTA PISTWN as the main referent as is Paul
himself (EGW [understood]) in 1Cor. 14:18. Also, MALISTA PISTWN is no
longer tacked onto the previous phrase as an afterthought, but is an
integral part of the thought with the first part of the clause in 1Tim.
4:10b.
Understanding the passage in this way gives an unbroken train
of thought from v. 7b through the end of v. 10 and also provides a valid
reason for the inclusion of Paul's dramatic and solemn statement of v. 9
prefacing v. 10. A translation of this passage could read as follows:
"Exercise yourself toward godliness. For physical execise is
helpful for only a short while; but godliness is always helpful, having a
promise for both the present life and for that to come. Faithful is this
saying and worthy of full acceptance, 'This is why we labor and struggle:
because we have fixed our hope upon the living God who, in preference to
all of humanity, is the Savior of those that believe.'"
Continuing to live by faith is spiritual execise, compared in vv.
7b-8 to rigorous physical training. Paul uses the apologetic saying of
v. 10 to explain why this work and struggle (AGWNIZOMEQA) of the
Christian life of faith is a worthwhile endeavor.
- --
David L. Moore Director
Miami, Florida, USA Department of Education
dvdmoore@ix.netcom.com Southeastern Spanish District
http://www.netcom.com/~dvdmoore of the Assemblies of God
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:49:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Newcomer question...
At 11:45 AM -0400 7/23/96, Jeffery W Grams wrote:
>I have been observing and enjoying the discussion revolving around 1
>Timothy 2:15 - yet I have a general question that *does* pertain to how
>one translates this passage...
>
>What basic assumptions does this "B-Greek" list accept regarding the text
>itself?
>1. Is the Word of God to be considered Verbally Inspired?
>2. Who is to be considered the author of a given text?
>3. Who then is to be considered the intended receptor of a given text?
>4. What time period was a given text written in? Was it revised later?
>
>Or does each member of the B-Greek list have his/her own perspective on
>these questions? If so, to what extent does that influence our ability
>to discuss these texts in such a manner that real progress is made in
>understanding them?
Yes--each member has his/her own perspective on these questions. The range
of perspectives is considerable from ultra-conservative to quite liberal.
There is no orthodoxy of perspective to which members are expected to be
committed, and conversation (electronic, that is) tends to proceed most
smoothly when respect for diversity of views is observed rather strictly,
which, of course, does NOT mean that one must DISGUISE one's perspective
(if that's possible) or state views that run COUNTER to one's own
theological perspective.
>I hope I am not being too forward for a newcomer, and I am sure that
>there are many unasked questions that could join the others above, yet if
>I am going to learn/participate effectively I thought I should ask...
This is a good question to have asked and it's a fact that we have to
remind each other occasionally that the purpose of this list is scholarly
discussion of the Greek text of the NT (and related literature) and not
evangelism for our individual theological stances.
And also, welcome to the list!
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: "Carlton L. Winbery" <winberyc@popalex1.linknet.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 15:30:54 +0400
Subject: Re: 1 Tim 2:15
Andrew S. Kulikovsky wrote;
>Carlton,
>
>On the issue of context, surely it is a key factor in interpretation. In
>this case
>the assurance of getting safely through childbirth is never even remotely
>mentioned in the rest of the book - and quite frankly, it just doesn't
>fit here!
>The central theme is the roles and responsibilities of men and women in
>the
>Church.
There is a great deal of concern in the context concerning the faithfulness
of women as well as the faithfulness of others in the church. This passage
seems to me designed to engender that faithfulness to what the Pastor
wanted women to be in the church.
>I don't know how you came to the conclusion that Paul was not the
>writer...
>For a start, the introduction states it was Paul (and incidentally, in
>virtually
>the same format as Romans and Galations). The close relationship
>between Paul and Timothy is alluded to throughout the NT
>(eg. Acts 20:4, Romans 16:21, 1 Corinthians 4:17,
>2 Corinthians 1:1, Philipians 1:1, 2:22, Colossians 1:1,
>1 Thess. 1:1, 3:2)
>
>Surely, Paul was writing to his beloved disciple, co-worker
>and friend.
Generally I do not think that we can effectively argue authorship on this
list, but sometimes it helps to know where those who post stand on this
issue, especially in regard to the changed position on marriage and the
different perspective on eschatology seen in the Pastorals. The issue of
authorship cannot be proven, but the great majority of scholars do question
the authorship of the pastorals. A great commentary that argues for
Pauline authorship has already been published by J. Jeremias, unfortunately
it has never been translated. Most of my friends in America would have
trouble with his contention that Paul did change rather drastically from
Gal/Cor/Rom to the time when he wrote the Pastorals.
I am not totally sure about authorship but two things in particular cause
me concern. The way heresy (if we might use that word for things the
pastor thought was wrong) is dealt with in the Pastorals and the way Paul
addressed such deviant belief in the main letters is very different.
Another concern is the contrast in the following statements.
2 Cor. 3:6 TO GRAMMA APOKTENNEI, TO DE PNEUMA ZWiOPOIEI.
2 Tim. 3:15 KAI hOTI APO BREFOUS TA hIERA GRAMMATA OIDAS, TA DUNAMENA SE
SOFISAI EIS SWTHRIAN . . .
Check out the use of GRAMMA in the main letters and in the Pastorals.
Carlton L. Winbery
Prof. Religion
LA College, Pineville, La
winberyc@popalex1.linknet.net
winbery@andria.lacollege.edu
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