From: Carl W. Conrad (cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu)
Date: Tue Oct 05 1999 - 08:20:50 EDT
<x-rich>At 6:17 PM -0700 10/4/99, Steve Puluka wrote:
>>At 11:24 PM -0600 10/4/99, Felipe Flores-Morelos wrote:
>> >I'm trying to translate the Divine Liturgy of Saint John
> > > Chrysostom, and I find a difficult text, maybe someone whishes
>> > to help me a little: The text is TA SA EK TWN SWN SOI
>> > PROSFEROMEN KATA PANDA KAI DIA PANDA (ta
>> >sa ek twn swn soi prosferomen kata panta kai dia panta) , Thanks.
>>
>>I think this is "What is yours (TA SA) from what is yours (EK TWN
SWN) we
>>offer to you (SOI PROSFEROMEN) on every occasion (KATA PANTA) and
for
>>every reason (DIA PANTA)."
>>
>>Carl W. Conrad
>>
>>There may be other accounts of the phrases KATA PANTA and DIA PANTA.
>>Another way to express the idea, as I understand it,
>>and in English that better fits normal English usage is: "Whatever we
offer
>>you, whatever the occasion and whatever the reason that we offer it,
it
>>belongs to you and comes from you."
>>
>The official English translation for the Byzantine Ruthenian
jurisdiction
>reads "We off to You Yours of Your own, in behalf of all and for all."
>However, this comes to English through the Old Slavonic, which reads
"Tvoja
>ot Tvojich Teb'i prinosim, o vs'ich i za vsja."
>
>I'm curious as to how close the English matches the Greek after the
pass
>through the Old Slavonic. This English is a very good rendering of
the Old
>Slavonic. My Greek is not this good yet.
>
>This moment of the Liturgy is during the Anaphora where the bread and
wine
>are being consecrated. The priest is elevating the square piece of
bread
>called the lamb, representing Christ and offering this as a sacrifice
to
>God. Hence, the sense of offering to God that which is already God's,
his
>own son. This offering is made on behalf of all the people and for
the
>people's salvation.
>
>See "The Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom" By Basil Shereghy
or
>"Introduction to Liturgical Theology by Alexander Schmemann for more
>details.
Here are a couple more versions of the line:
<color><param>0000,7777,0000</param>"Thine own of Thine own, we offer
You, in behalf of all, and for all."
</color>(from Byzantines.net:
"Thine own of thine own we offer to Thee, in all and for all."
(translation of the Most Reverend Archbishop Germanos, Archbishop of
What I find rather fascinating here is the diversity of renderings of
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics/Washington University
One Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018
Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649
</x-rich>
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: Sat Apr 20 2002 - 15:40:40 EDT
<fontfamily><param>Times</param><bigger>http://www.byzantines.net/liturgy/liturgy.htm></fontfamily>
)
Thyateira,in _The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom_ ed. & arr. by
Rev. George Mastrantonis, St. Louis, 1966.
the rather vague prepositional phrases KATA PANTA and DIA PANTA.