From: Ilvgrammta@aol.com
Date: Thu Dec 23 1999 - 20:56:34 EST
Dear Bill,
This post is intended for you and Charles Stevens. I will try to explain why
I do not believe that you can make such assertions about either John 1:1 or
8:58.
In a message dated 99-12-23 17:30:11 EST, wross@farmerstel.com writes:
<< John's Gospel begins with the following affirmation:
John 1 1 EN ARCH HN O LOGOS KAI O LOGOS HN PROS TON QEON KAI QEOS HN O
LOGOS
John 1 2 OUTOS HN EN ARCH PROS TON QEON
These should show us:
* John was writing about a person that "was in the beginning"<<
I think that the Prologue makes it highly likely that John is writing about a
person. Of course, not everyone would agree. But when John writes KAI hO
LOGOS SARX EGENETO, he seems to clearly distinguish his LOGOS from that of
the pre-Socratics, the Stoics, or Philo (as Augustine of Hippo observed). So
I would voice my assent here, for what that's worth.
>>* John believed this person was with God (and was God)<<
I think this proposition is a little harder to prove. While Jn 1:1c could
certainly be understood in the way that you posit, it surely is not the only
way the passage can be understood. In Wenham's grammar, we are told that the
construction in Jn 1:1c can be understood to mean "God" or "a god" (though
Wenham mistakenly writes that "a god" connotes polytheism). Based on grammar
alone, one choice is as reasonable as the other. I strike a middle ground and
think that it should be translated "a divine being," or "God of a sort" (as
some German translations render this passage). But that may be due to my
theological presuppositions. I am not telling you how you should understand
this passage. I'm just trying to present the other side of matters.
Concerning this passage, J.A.T. Robinson wrote:
"The Greek runs: KAI QEOS HN hO LOGOS. The so-called Authorized Version has:
'And the Word was God.' This would indeed suggest the view that 'Jesus' and
'God' were identical and interchangeable. But in Greek this would most
naturally be represented by 'God' with the article, not QEOS but hO QEOS. But,
equally, St. John is not saying that Jesus is a 'divine' man, in the sense
with which the ancient world was familiar or in the sense that Liberals spoke
of him. That would be QEIOS. The Greek expression steers carefully between
the two. It is impossible to represent it in a single English word, but the
New English Bible, I believe, gets the sense pretty exactly with its
rendering, 'And what God was, the Word was.' In other words, if one looked at
Jesus, one saw God--for he who has seen me, has seen the Father . . . Through
him, as through no one else, God spoke and God acted; when one met him one
was met . . . by God" (Robinson 70-71).
>>I think some are asking us to accept that this was just a common, natural
idiomatic way of saying "I already was" or "I was appointed" but I think it
is because:
* it gives a dramatic, eternal "nowness" that, even in English, has
tremendous beauty and power;<<
Could you please explain how Jn 8:58 does this?
>>* it alludes to the way YHWH revealed Himself, as the I AM;<<
I am personally suspect about this interpretation. There are too many other
options, as S. Miller has pointed out. T.W. Manson understood this passage to
say, "I am the Messiah." John L. Mckenzie has also written the following
about Jn 8:58:
"Jesus asserts his own innocence and the vindication which the Father will
give him. This leads to a clear assertion of preexistence and his life is
threatened for the first time. The preexistent Messiah actually does appear
in rabbinical literature; and it was also rabbinical belief that the
patriarchs and Moses saw the Messiah in a vision" (Mckenzie 193-194).
So I think that it is quite possible Jesus was simply identifying himself as
the Messiah in Jn 8:58--and the Jews knew it. Sure he provoked a heated
response from his hearers. But this should not surprise us since Jesus
claimed to antedate Abraham. This observation is made by K.L. Mckay in
Expository Times. If you compare Ex. 3:14 and Jn 8:58, you will note some
differences. An important being that god is not called EGW EIMI in Ex. 3:14,
15. The appellation He is given is hO WN.
Sincerely,
Edgar Foster
Edgar Foster
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