From: Polycarp66@aol.com
Date: Tue Jun 13 2000 - 04:21:35 EDT
In a message dated 6/9/2000 10:37:29 AM Central Standard Time,
parousia_occ@yahoo.com writes:
<<
I am wondering about this construction and what exactly the idiom means.
It is used here (John 2.4) by Jesus concerning he and his mother. However,
the same idiom is used in another place by the demons in 'Legion'
concerning them and Jesus ('What have we to do with you, Son of the Most
High?!'). What would we say about the connotation and tone of the phrase?
How should the idiom be understood?
>>
Literally, of course, it means "What is it to me and to you?" (but you know
that). It seems to carry the connotation "What concern of mine is this?" Or
"What do I (we) have to do with you?
gfsomsel
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From: "Steve Puluka" <spuluka@hotmail.com>
To: Biblical Greek <b-greek@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Subject: Re: OINOS
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 06:59:47 -0400
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Barton" <phos@prodigy.net>
>
> "he shall abstain from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar,
> whether made from wine or strong drink, nor shall he drink any grape juice
> nor eat fresh or dried grapes. All the days of his separation he shall
not
> eat anything that is produced by the grape vine, from the seeds even to
the
> skin" (Num 6:2)
>
Brenton translates "vinegar of wine" where this translation has grape juice.
The Greek text is:
hOS AN MEGALOS hISRAHL, KAI hEPEIS PROS AUTOUS, hANHR H GUNH, hOS hAN
MEGALOS EUZHTAI EUCHN hAFAGNISASQAI hAGNEIAN KURIOS, hPO OINOU KAI SIKERA
hAGNISQHSETAI KAI OZOS hEZ OINOU KAI OZOS hEK SIKERA ON PIETAI KAI OSA
KATERGAZETAI hEK STAFULHS ON PIETAI KAI STAFULHN PROSFATON KAI STAFIDA ON
FAGETAI PASAS TAS hHMEPRAS THS EUCHS AUTON.
I'm still not convinced that grape juice apart from some form of wine is
indicated by any of these words or passages.
Beginning of the tangent on liturgical practice.........
As far as the reference to Communion wine, in the Liturgy of St. John
Chysostom of the Eastern Church the water is added to the wine for three
reasons:
1-The Paschal ceremony prescribes that the wine be mixed 1/3 with water.
Therefore, the Eucharistic celebration follows this common practice of the
middle-east.
2-This is done in remembrance of the blood and water flowing from the side
of Jesus on the cross. This is specifically mentioned in the prayers during
proskomidiaas we pour in the water.
3-This symbolized the union of Christ and the faithful. The water connects
the Baptismal laver to the Eucharist as well.
See Justin(Apol 1), Irenaeus(Adv. Haer), and Cyprian(Ep. ad Czecil) who all
mention the mixed chalice (POTERION KEKRAMENON). This is in opposition to
the Monophysites practice. They did not accept the human nature of Christ
and refused to mix water with the wine. The council of Trullo (692) depose
some Armenian bishops and priest who followed their example.
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