From: Carl W. Conrad (cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu)
Date: Tue Jul 25 2000 - 07:46:50 EDT
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--></style><title>List protocol re: Eph 5:18, EN
PNEUMATI</title></head><body>
<div>At 5:57 PM +0000 7/24/00, B.J. Williamson wrote:</div>
<div>>>By the way, I just checked the first passage, Mt 3:11,
and found<br>
>>EN hUDATI ... EN PNEUMATI hAHIWi KAI PURI translated
(NKJV)<br>
>>"with water ... with the Holy Spirit and fire."<br>
>><br>
>>That is, why not just take it consistently throughout
as: I baptize<br>
>>with water ... but He will baptize with holy spirit and
fire?<br>
>><br>
>>Paul<br>
><br>
><br>
>Does it not seem apparent to all that this discussion should have
concluded<br>
>a long time ago?<br>
><br>
>I would not say these suggested translations by Paul are
"bad" Greek; I<br>
>would say that they are "not" Greek, at all. Paul has
decided how he will<br>
>"interpret" this, so is there anything left to say?<br>
><br>
>Paul is guilty of imposing his (false) theology into this
passage, but we<br>
>all do that occasionally. The point is that when we get
"caught," we must<br>
>humbly acknowledge it. If that does not take place, move on.<br>
><br>
>I, for one, vote we move on.<br>
><br>
>Respectfully,<br>
></div>
<div>>B. J. Williamson</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Others besides B.J. may have come to the view that Paul has been
"beating a dead horse" over the issue above, and Paul has
consequently shifted the subject header to "Definiteness of
Anarthrous Nouns in Prepositional Phrases." My own sense is that
this may be worth pursuing a bit further in its own right, however we
may judge for ourselves the question whether EN PNEUMATI must
necessarily refer to the Holy Spirit.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I do think, however, that the phrasing of B.J.'s second and
third paragraphs cross the line spelled out in the List Netiquette
which is sent to every new subscriber and which is published at
intervals on list, to wit:</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><font color="#000000">"D. Netiquette:</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br>
"1. Respectful discourse: Those who
participate in the conference represent a wide range of theological
and denominational perspectives, perhaps even including some whose
interests are purely academic. Deep religious convictions
surely characterize many, perhaps most, of the list-participants, and
some of these convictions bear directly upon how the Biblical text is
to be understood. At the core of our discussion, however, is not what
our convictions are but what the Greek text may legitimately be
understood to mean. If discussion of this nature is to succeed,
proper respect and courtesy to other list members is important.
While scholarly debate, including disagreement, is encouraged as a
goal of this conference, attacks upon the character, intelligence, or
faith of those participating are not acceptable. Criticism must focus
upon the arguments of others; it may not be directed to the
individual. Those who violate this policy will be contacted
politely by the B-Greek staff and requested to conform to these
guidelines. Those who continue to violate the policy will no
longer be welcome in the conference."</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000">I do not think there is anything malicious
in B.J.'s message, a judgment which I find constated by his phrase
"but we all do that occasionally" and by the
"Respectfully" preceding his signature. Nevertheless, I
think that B.J.'s message offends against list protocol (a) in that
it offers a theological judgment upon Paul's argumentation in the
ongoing thread--but we have repeatedly urged list-members not to
discuss theology but focus on possible meanings of a Biblical Greek
text based upon morphological, syntactical, lexicographical or other
appropriate methodologies, and (b) in that it specifically states
that Paul has imposed a "false" theology upon the passage
in question (Eph 5:18).</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000">Now it may well be that one or two or
several B-Greekers really do agree with that assessment, but most, I
hope, are aware that it is detrimental to list discussions as well as
a violation of list protocol to make such an assertion openly on
list. The point to bear in mind here is that we wish neither to
promote as being "true" nor to disparage as being
"false" any particular theology which any list-member may
hold: B-Greek is open to believers (of all kinds) and non-believers
alike and there are no assumptions about orthodoxy governing our
discussions. We believe that, so long as we can keep our discussion
focused upon the legitimate possibilities for understanding Biblical
Greek texts and legitimate questions about the nature of the Biblical
Greek language, we can all of us, no matter what our angle of belief
or unbelief may be, profit from and learn from discussion with each
other.</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000">I cite a portion of this message written
and sent to me by B.J. early this morning:</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div>At 12:26 AM +0000 7/25/00, B.J. Williamson wrote:</div>
<div>>After careful consideration, and with great pain, I have
decided to remove</div>
<div>>myself from this list.<br>
></div>
<div>>I wish this list the best!<br>
></div>
<div>>Please pass on my apologies to any I have offended.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>While B.J. is certainly free to leave the list if that is what
he feels he must do, I have already written him and urged that he
reconsider. Others whom I shall not name have violated list protocol
and have been contacted by the B-Greek Staff regarding the violations
and have apologized and continued to be productive contributing
members of the list. I have myself on occasion violated the list
protocol and I have offered my apologies upon discovering that I had
done so. I do hope that B.J. will reconsider.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>And that, I also hope, will be enough said about this matter.
Let's get back to discussing Biblical Greek.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>-- <br>
<br>
Carl W. Conrad<br>
Department of Classics, Washington University<br>
Summer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243<br>
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwconrad@ioa.com<br>
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/>
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