From: GregStffrd@aol.com
Date: Thu Jan 25 2001 - 20:46:21 EST
I am forwarding this email to the list, sinc Charles responded to it
publicly, though it was a reply to his private email to me.
Greg Stafford
Return-path: <GregStffrd@aol.com>
From: GregStffrd@aol.com
Full-name: GregStffrd
Message-ID: <ee.103a4f7d.27a1a949@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:07:37 EST
Subject: Re: [b-greek] Re: BDAG at Rv 3:14 - Christ was the first creation now probable
To: CEP7@aol.com
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In a message dated 01/24/2001 1:39:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, CEP7 writes:
<< If a noun is cognate to a verb it is essentially a verbal noun. In other
words, if a head noun and genitive can be transformed into verbal idea in the
sense of transformational grammar, then the genitive is a verbal genitive
(either subjective or objective. >>
Dear Charles:
I am not denying that a noun such ARCH **can be** transformed into a verbal
noun, but I am asking where the basis for doing is in this verse, or
elsewhere with respect to this noun. I see no basis for seeing a verbal idea
in ARCH, here, and simply highlighting its relationship to a verbal root does
not give it that idea.
Remember, I said I was open to viewing it as an objective genitive, if you
could show that here or elsewhere ARCH can carry an implicit verbal idea.
Simply being a cognate to a verb does not legitimize the interpretation. It
is a possibility, grammatically, to be sure, but a remote one at best. But,
then there is this:
<<< I take TOU QEOU as a subjective genitive and is thus God is the ultimate
agent. Christ who begins the creation is the intermediate agent or possibly
the instrumental means which would also be the idea of EN AUTWi in Col
1:15-17. Creation is a joint effort between God and Christ (and I might add
the Spirit according to Gen 1:1-3). >>
If Christ is the beginner, then he is not an intimidate agent, but the causal
agent. If one is intermediate, then someone else is beginning the process
through that agent. Col. 1:15-17 does use EN AUTWi, showing the instrumental
role of Christ in creation, but this is used together with passive verbs!
Hence, again, the beginner is someone other than Christ, who creates
"in/through" him. I see nothing that would indicate that Christ is the
beginner, but, as you seem to suggest, an intermediate agent. This is not
consistent with the idea of "beginner," which rightly is reserved for the
causal agent.
I appreciate your thoughts, though.
Best regards,
Greg Stafford
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