From: Bryant J. Williams III (bjwvmw@com-pair.net)
Date: Thu May 31 2001 - 02:43:26 EDT
To Whom It May Concern:
I have been following the thread of discussion for the past couple of
days(?). It seems to me that we, myself included, must remember the first
rule of translation of a word (s) is that of CONTEXT.
It is apparent from the context that after Peter's adamant statement to NOT
deny the Lord (and from parallel passage in Mt) and the subsequent problem
that since it was late at night, the flesh will grow weary, that Jesus gives
His warning. I agree that the 38b-c should be translated 'Watch (Aor Act
Infin-used Imperatively) and pray for yourselves (Pres Mid Imper 2nd
plural), in order that (HINA) you would (should or will) not enter (MH
ELQHTE-2nd Aor Act Sub 2nd plural; HINA + subjunctive=purpose clause) into
temptation (eis peirasmov).' Thus, Jesus is warning them (the disciples)
about failure of the flesh (whether it be sincere or not) versus the power
of the spirit (MEN is used as causal or explanatory).
Furthermore, considering also what Jesus was about to go through that night
and the next day, Jesus could also be reminding Himself (though this is pure
speculation; it is not brought out by the context in this passage, but in
the Lukan passage).
That is all the context is saying. Let us not confuse translation
(interpretation ?) with application. Let us not read into the passage what
is not there. That does not mean that we cannot understand from other
passages what a word means, but do not import that meaning into the given
passage. Whether Jesus and the disciples are carrying out typology between
Israel and God is a matter of theology that is not pertinent to the
discussion at hand.
If, by saying this, I offend someone, then that was not intended. I only
wish to get back to the explanation of the Greek.
Thank You,
Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
----- Original Message -----
From: <dixonps@juno.com>
To: "Biblical Greek" <b-greek@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Cc: <b-greek@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 11:38 PM
Subject: [b-greek] Re: the intent of Mk. 14:38
>
>
> On Wed, 30 May 2001 19:22:49 -0400 "Stephen C. Carlson"
> <scarlson@mindspring.com> writes:
>
> > At 03:17 PM 5/30/01 -0700, dixonps@juno.com wrote:
> >
> > >In James 1:13 it says God PEIRAZEI ... OUDENA. In Gen 22:1,
> > >however, it says hO QEOS EPEIRASEN ABRAAM. How can God
> > >both PEIRAZEI no one, and PEIRAZEI Abraham? Only if the
> > >word has two different nuances: tempting toward sin and testing for
> > >faithfulness, respectively.
> >
> > This analysis assumes that PEIRAZEI DE AUTOS OUDENA is a
> > proposition that James is affirmatively asserting rather
> > than refuting as part of the same discourse as MHDEIS
> > PEIRAZOMENOS LEGETW hOTI APO QEOU PEIRAZOMAI in 1:13a,
> > in which case it is better to construe APO as a privative
> > rather than the rare agentive.
>
>
> No, APO normally denotes "origin or source from" (BAG). This usage is
> confirmed by every occurrence of APO QEOU in the NT (21 occurrences,
> besides Js 1:13).
>
>
> > Thus, James 1:12-14 would mean something like:
> >
> > 12 Blessed is the man who withstands testing, because
> > he has become worthy to receive the crown of like that
> > was promised to those who love him. 13 Let no one
> > who is being tested say, "I am being tested without
> > God, since God is not to be tested by bad things,
> > and he himself tests no one." 14 But each is tested
> > by their own desires, being lured and enticed.
>
> You should not have stopped at verse 14. This section continues through
> to verse 15 which indicates that the end result of such PEIRASMOS, if
> carried out, is sin and death. But, the intended end of testing is
> faithfulness, not sin and death.
>
> No, we have to look for a nuance of PEIRASMOS in these verses that is
> different from its meaning in verse 2 where it clearly refers to a
> testing to produce patience and faithfulness. Temptation to sin as the
> meaning of PEIRAZW in verses 13-15 is the only meaning that makes sense.
>
> Paul Dixon
>
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