From: Chet Creider (creider@csd.uwo.ca)
Date: Sun Sep 09 2001 - 12:45:07 EDT
> Chet responded:
> > Iver Larsen:
> > > Yes, BAGD is not helpful with this citation. The sense "by, at,
> > near" is OK, though.
> >
> > I think not -- see below.
Iver--
I accept that what I wrote above was misleading, but I think that if you
had gone on to my "below" you would have seen that I didn't mean for a
minute that the sense of "by, at, near" for PROS was in general not OK.
I meant that the meaning with hEAUTON _as it comes into English with "by"_
is idiomatic and in fact not that sense at all: "by himself" doesn't mean
anything at all like "at himself" or "near himself" but means "alone".
Now I think I have misunderstood you, because it is that meaning that I
thought you were suggesting when you used "by" (and my claim was that
a highly idiomatic English sense couldn't be extended to Greek without
additional justification).
Assuming I am now understanding you correctly if I say you are suggesting
that the meaning is something like "standing next to himself", I can only
say that to me that makes no sense at all, and I don't see how it could
make sense in any language, Greek included, as it implies being in two
places at the same time.
I must be missing some link in what you are thinking/writing. It has been
a very busy week as our academic term has just begun, and perhaps my brain
is more addled than usual.
Chet
> Since I cannot accept Ward's suggestion as plausible, though interesting, I
> want to probe my own suggestion a bit more. See below.
> >
> > > The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed these things (to God)...
> > >
> > > In true Pharisee fashion he separated himself from the common man and
> > > especially a despised tax collector.
> >
> > The problem with this suggestion is that it uses a highly idiomatic
> > meaning of "by" in English (and perhaps also Danish? -- I don't have
> > any Danish grammars at home, but is something like "staaende ved seg selv"
> > used also in Danish? -- writing "a med ring" with "aa"). If Luke had
> > used PROS hEAUTON in this sense elsewhere, one might be forced to say
> > it was some kind of coincidence that English/Danish and Luke's Greek
> > used the same idiom, but apparently the only other time he uses PROS
> > hEAUTON (see the discussion begun by Mike Sangrey) a very different
> > meaning is intended.
>
> Since my friend, Chet, has learned some Danish let me tell him that in
> Danish we would say "stående for sig selv". The one you mention means
> "standing beside himself."
> But let's move to Greek.
>
> I agree that the English "by, at, near" might fit better with PROS plus
> dative, but it is still appropriate with PROS plus accusative. BADG use
> these glosses in both places, and rightly so. The accusative use has the
> basic meaning of "towards, at, by". In Luke 18:11 the meaning is moving
> towards a place of his own as a place separate from where the tax collector
> was standing. Is it possible in English to say "He stood to himself" for "he
> stood alone, on his own"?
>
> This is not a special usage of PROS. Let me give a few examples. Since you
> like to restrict yourself to Luke, let's do that:
>
> Lk 3:9 hH AXINH PROS THN RIZAN TWN DENDRWN KEITAI
> the axe is placed towards/at/by the root of the trees
>
> Lk 10:39 PARAKAQESQEISA PROS TOUS PODAS TOU KURIOU HKOUEN TON LOGON AUTOU
> She sat down towards/at/by the feet of the Lord and listened to his word
>
> Lk 16:20 EBEBLHTO PROS TON PULWNA AUTOU
> he had been placed towards/at/by his gate
>
> Lk 22:56 IDOUSA DE AUTON PAIDISKH TIS KAQHMENON PROS TO FWS
> A certain servant girl saw him sitting at/by the light
>
> Lk 24:12 APHLQEN PROS hEAUTON
> he went away to his own (place)
>
> All of these involve movement towards something. Sometimes the movement is
> completed so that we see the person sitting at/near/by a place.
> Therefore, the meaning "by/at" in this sense is well attested.
>
> In Lk 18:11 we saw an aorist passive participle of hISTHMI - having placed
> himself. He had already moved to a place where he could stand by himself or
> at his own (place).
>
> I am afraid I don't see the problem with this usage. It seems to be good
> Greek.
>
> If a stative verb rather than a motion verb had been used KATA would
> probably have been used as in
>
> Acts 28:16 EPETRAPH TWi PAULWI MENEIN KAQ' hEAUTON
> Paul was allowed to stay/live by himself (at his own place)
>
> (A few later mss changed PROS to KATA in Lk 18:11. The original hand of
> Sinaiticus forgot PROS hEAUTON and when it was added later, it was
> apparently put in the wrong place.)
>
> I think it is those who prefer to take PROS hEAUTON with "praying" who are
> creating unnecessary complications.
>
> Best wishes,
> Iver Larsen
>
>
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