From: c stirling bartholomew (cc.constantine@worldnet.att.net)
Date: Wed Nov 07 2001 - 15:07:21 EST
on 11/7/01 11:32 AM, Iver Larsen wrote:
> Not necessarily. Participant reference is specific to the language. Hebrew
> uses many more proper names than English does, so we translators have
> learned many times to translate a proper name from a Hebrew text with a
> pronoun. It has little to do with topical prominence, just a feature of
> Hebrew participant reference.
> Similarly, Greek uses lots of pronouns where English requires a proper name.
> In Greek narratives it is common for the main participant to be referred to
> by a pronoun or just a pronominal affix in the verb. But that does not mean
> that a pronoun always refers to the main character. One has to distinguish
> between the main characters in one section as opposed to a different
> section. And there may be two main/major characters. Participant reference
> is a fascinating discourse study topic, but can be complex.
> An idiomatic translation into English from Greek will often use a proper
> name or noun phrase rather than a pronoun. Otherwise, the reader cannot keep
> track of the participants. Mark 9:14-21 is a section we commonly use in
> demonstrating this kind of thing to prospective Bible translators.
>
> Just take a look at the following section from KJV and see if you can follow
> the participants:
>
> "And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth
> with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they
> should cast him out; and they could not.
> He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be
> with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me. And they brought
> him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he
> fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming. And he asked his father, How long
> is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child."
>
> Iver Larsen
Iver,
Very good points all of them.
You know this example from the KJV reminds me of a comment made by MacPhee
(That Hideous Strength, C.S. Lewis) and I quote from memory:
"Women speak a language without nouns . . . they will say 'Put this in that
over there . . .'".
So referential encoding isn't only language dependent, according to MacPhee
it is also gender dependent. Of course MacPhee could be wrong about this.
;-))))
thanks,
Clay
--
Clayton Stirling Bartholomew
Three Tree Point
P.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
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