From: Steven Lo Vullo (doulos@merr.com)
Date: Sat Dec 01 2001 - 20:00:26 EST
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On Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 06:09 PM, Harry W. Jones wrote:
> Here I was talking about the need for additional information being
> given in any translation of TWi hAMARTWLWi if we go for a "Par
> Excellence"
> understanding of TWi hAMARTWLWi. I would think the general reader
> would need more information than simply "the sinner" to reach a
> "Par Excellent" understanding . For example, "a sinner worst than
> all sinners" or "the worst sinner of all". But, of course, I just simply
> do not see a "Par Excellence" classification in the scriptural
> references That Wallace gives.
You seem to be suggesting that if an English translation cannot
translate a Greek word one to one with an English word, without adding
any additional words to capture the nuance, the Greek cannot be
understood to convey that nuance! This is exactly how Greek should NOT
be done! If the Greek suggests a particular semantic force, we must not
ignore that because we cannot cannot capture it in a single English
word. And we don't understand Greek on the basis of English translation.
> I have only a few translations, maybe 15 or 20 scattered around. But I
> suspect that if everybody on the list started checking their tranlations
> that they would find that almost all translated TWi hAMARTWLWi as
> "a sinner". The literal translations might translate it as "the sinner"
> though.
About a half dozen translations have been mentioned thus far. I think
that in itself negates your contention that "almost all" translate with
"a sinner." Also, above you seem to think that adding additional
information to an English translation is inappropriate, while here you
seem to indicate that the "literal translations" have it all wrong.
Which is it?
> Another thing, and I know this is a low blow but please forgive for
> the sake of truth, in all my grammar references I have not found one
> reference to the "Par Excellence" classification.
Are you talking about other grammars besides Wallace's? If so, have you
not considered that other grammarians may use different terminology to
describe the same phenomenon? Grammarians often use different names for
categories that describe the same phenomenon. Or they lump various
usages together under a larger umbrella category. You cannot take for
granted that just because you do not find the same labels among
grammarians that they do not recognize the same usage. I would venture
that, even though they may not use the terminology "par excellence,"
most grammarians, if they read Wallace's DEFINITION of par excellence
and looked at his examples, would recognize it as a legitimate semantic
nuance of the article.
> In conclusion, I just don't see any alternative but to go along with the
> majority of translations. Unless you can give me a better reason than
> Wallances "Par Excellent" classification. For in the multitude of
> counselors there is safety.
First of all, if you have read my other posts, you know that I do not
think par excellence is the best explanation of TWi hAMARTWLWi in Luke
18.13 (though I think it is second best). And I think I HAVE given good
reasons to buck the translations that do not translate TWi with the
English definite article. You have chosen not to respond to any of those
reasons at all. The reason we got mired in a discussion of par
excellence is mainly due to your misapprehension of it (and other of
Wallace's categories for the article). Remember, your first post on this
whole issue read: "Your question is pretty much answered in GGBB by
Wallace on page 223 where Wallace classifies the use of the article in
this passage as a "Par Excellence" use. That is, as a member of a
class." It was this misunderstanding of Wallace's definition of par
excellence that got us going on par excellence in the first place!
Sometimes "in a multitude of counselors" there is just mediocrity and
hard-to-break traditions. The majority has been wrong many times before,
they will be wrong again.
=============
Steven Lo Vullo
Madison, WI
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