From: Bryant J. Williams III (bjwvmw@com-pair.net)
Date: Fri Feb 15 2002 - 13:39:57 EST
Dear Kevin, et al,
I am wondering if the idea behind AFIHMI/AFAIREW is "Who or What is providing the
forgiveness/letting go/remit?" It appears to me that there must be an personal 'agent' of some
sort who provides the forgiveness, while the "blood of bulls and goats" would only cover the sin
since they are the instrument being used to provide the covering NOT the removal/remitting of
sin. BTW the quote of Paul in Romans 11:26-27 is from the LXX (Isaiah 59:20-21) and it is by "hO
RHUOMENOS" - The Deliverer (The Kinsman-Redeemer) who "will forgive" (AFELWMAI).
En Xpistw,
Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Cauley" <cauley@airmail.net>
To: "Biblical Greek" <b-greek@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 7:01 PM
Subject: [b-greek] Re: AFIHMI/AFAIREW (was AFIHMI and APAIRW)
> Sorry to belabor the point, but just so I am clear on the issue, AFIHMI
> carries with it a subjective connotation and AFAIREW carries with it an
> objective kind of neutral observer connotation? But both words basically
> have the same idea (in the sense that there is a "separation" involved),
> just from different perspectives, one from the objective perspective the
> other from the subjective perspective.
>
> Kevin Cauley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl W. Conrad [mailto:cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 8:37 PM
> To: Biblical Greek
> Cc: Biblical Greek
> Subject: [b-greek] Re: AFIHMI/AFAIREW (was AFIHMI and APAIRW)
>
> At 8:13 PM -0600 2/14/02, Kevin Cauley wrote:
> >I would think that the circumstances in which one would want to translate
> >AFAIREW "forgive" would be in a spiritual context such as this. Under the
> >Old Law such as in Leviticus 4:20, we have "and the priests shall make an
> >atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them." What better way to
> >express to those who were leaving Christianity for Judaism than to say that
> >the blood of bulls and goats could not FORGIVE sin? Hence my question, in
> >this context, what would the connotative difference be between AFIHMI and
> >AFAIREW? Why use AFAIREW as opposed to AFIHMI? Does AFAIREW carry with it
> >some quality (such as "objectivality" or something) that AFIHMI does not?
>
> Yes, I think that's about right: AFAIREW is "take away," "remove", and if I
> may use the comparison, it would seem that in this context the blood of
> bulls and goats is conceived as a sort of detergent that might
> theoretically but not in fact remove the "stain" of sin. On the other hand,
> AFIHMI is "remit," "let go."
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Carl W. Conrad [mailto:cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu]
> >Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 12:09 PM
> >To: Biblical Greek
> >Cc: Biblical Greek
> >Subject: [b-greek] Re: AFIHMI/AFAIREW (was AFIHMI and APAIRW)
> >
> >At 9:13 AM -0600 2/14/02, Paul O. Wendland wrote:
> >>Carl W. Conrad wrote:
> >>
> >>> The simple answer is, NO, these are not really synonyms; AFAIREW means
> >>> "remove" (physically), while AFIHMI (or AFIW in it later omega-verb
> form)
> >>> means "let go" or "dismiss."
> >>
> >>I would agree that there are no exact synomyms, and that despite overlap
> in
> >>semantic domains we must attend to those differences, especially as the
> >>context and the collocates of the word lead us to do so.
> >>
> >>> Nor, I think, would one really want to talk about BLOOD having
> >>> the power to
> >>> forgive;
> >>
> >>Perhaps, but perhaps the above statement is too general. Witness:
> >>
> >>Eph 1:7 EN hWi ECOMEN THN APOLUTRWSIN DIA TOU AIMATOS AUTOU, THN AFESIN
> TWN
> >>PARAPTWMATWN
> >
> >But even here the first item is EN hWi, with clear reference to Christ.
> >
> >>>forgiveness is something that depends upon a person's will or
> >>> God's will; REMOVAL might be a matter of the instrument.
> >>
> >>However in this context the issue is not: person vs. instrument. Does
> not,
> >>in fact, an instrument have to be wielded by someone? Doesn't it express
> >>the personal will of the wielder? Is it not rather the *inadequacy* of
> the
> >>instrument which is in the foreground here, that is: not a question of
> >>blood/death per se being able/unable to effect such a removal, but a
> >>question of *what kind of* blood/death can effect such a removal
> >>permanently. The killing of beasts could not. But the blood/death of the
> >>one spoken of in the following verse could.
> >>
> >>9.12 OUDE DI' AIMATOS TRAGWN KAI MOSCWN DIA DE TOU IDIOU hAIMATOS EISHLQEN
> >>EFAPAX EIS TA hAGIA AIWNIAN LUTRWSIN EURAMENOS.
> >>
> >>So I guess in this case I don't quite see the viability of drawing too
> >sharp
> >>a distinction between the force of AFIHMI and AFAIREW. I also don't
> really
> >>understand what distinction is being drawn between physical removal
> >>(=AFAIREW) and AFIHMI. After all, weren't missles "physically" let
> >>go/launched and wasn't this thought expressed by AFIHMI? I'm thinking in
> >>other words, that in some contexts AFIHMI often denotes a physical
> >>dislocation. What makes it something "spiritual" is its collocation with
> >an
> >>abstraction like "sins." So also with AFAIREW: how can someone physically
> >>remove an abstraction like sins, or guilt? Doesn't it have to be read in
> a
> >>"spiritual" sense?
> >>
> >>In this passage, then, I'd just read AFAIREW to mean something like
> >>"nullification" and while it doesn't mean exactly the same as forgiveness,
> >>when one moves up the ladder of generalization, it comes out to the same
> >>basic place.
> >
> >Even so, one of the original questions was:
> >
> >>Specifically, could one translate Hebrews 10:4 as follows: "for (there is)
> >>no power in the blood of bulls and goats to forgive sin?" Please focus
> >>primarily upon the word AFAIREW and if it could be translated, "forgive."
> >
> >I can't conceive of any circumstances in which one would want to translate
> >ADUNATON GAR hAIMA TAURWN KAI TRAGWN AFAIREIN hAMARTIAS as "For it's
> >impossible for blood of bulls or goats to FORGIVE sins."
> >--
> >
> >Carl W. Conrad
> >Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
> >Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
> >cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwconrad@ioa.com
> >WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
> >
> >---
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> --
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
> Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
> cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwconrad@ioa.com
> WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
>
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