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Plants By Mail FAQ

Archive-name: plants-by-mail
Posting-Frequency: bimonthly (sporadic)

                Plants By Mail FAQ

                 by Peter Leppik
                 p-leppi@uiuc.edu

This document is intended to introduce readers to the world of buying
plants by mail order; and also to serve as a central clearinghouse for
information about contacting various mail order plant houses.  I make
no claims about being more informed on this topic than your average
Joe, but I saw the need, and I'm willing to put forth the effort to
compile and maintain this.

History:
  Updated: 1/22/95
    Major revisions.  Most of the section on mail-order companies has
    been moved out of the FAQ.  It is now available via the World Wide
    Web <URL:http://seidel.ncsa.uiuc.edu/PBM-FAQ/>.  For those without
    access to WWW (i.e. Mosaic, Netscape, lynx), I will E-mail copies of
    this section upon request.  Please don't request unless you really
    don't have WWW access, though, since I don't want to be flooded.
  Updated: 7/12/94
  Updated: 4/30/94
  Originally Created: 3/17/94 (late at night)

Contents:

   I. Introduction
   II. But First, A Word From Our Lawyers
   III. How To Tell a Good Company from a Bad One
       (or: Things To Look For Before Taking the Plunge)
   IV. What To Do When Your Order Arrives
       (or: OhMyGawd!  There's No DIRT With These Plants!)
   V. Which Catalog To Order From
   VI. Mail Order Houses, How to Contact Them, and My Opinions Thereof
   VII. But Before We Go....


I. Introduction

It seems that one of the most common article titles in rec.gardens is,
"How can I reach XYZZY?" or, "The Plugh company sent me a catalog.  Are
they any good?"  I hope to be able to answer some of these questions in
a reasonably definitive manner (the first is easy, the second harder),
and provide the neophyte with some introduction to buying plants by mail.

My experience in this area has been short, but intense.  After finally
moving from a small condo into a real house (with a YARD and a GARDEN
even!) in 1993, one of my first projects was to begin widespread
replanting of the yard (which is mostly boring grass, or very ugly
hybrid poplars).  To do that, I began ordering large numbers of bulbs
and plants from a number of mail-order houses.  Some were good, some
were bad, and I learned a lot about what to look for and what to avoid.

I welcome any and all comments.  Send them to my E-mail address above.
If there is some catalog not covered here which you think should be, by
all means let me know.  If you do send me comments, PLEASE please respect
my poor, overworked mailer.  I've had people resend me the entire FAQ just
for a few lines of comments, and I even had one person send me a bunch of
UUencoded binary pictures!  Needless to say, this doesn't help me much, and
it wastes my disk space.  That said....do send comments, because
they do help!

At the end of this document, there is a URL address where you can find an
HTML version of this FAQ.  If you don't know what HTML is, don't sweat it.
If you do, then you can get this FAQ there.

I assume that, if you send me comments, you don't mind if they find their
way into a future edition.  I'll try to verify this, but sometimes I forget.  Thus, if you DON'T want you name in a future edition of the FAQ, be sure
to say so.

Finally, I used to include an extensive list of mail-order companies in
this FAQ, along with my comments (and comments of others).  Unfortunately,
it got to the point where the list was considerably larger than the rest of
the FAQ.  Instead of splitting the FAQ into several parts (which I
considered doing), I decided to move the list of mail-order houses onto
the World Wide Web.  There are several reasons why I did this.  First, I
didn't want to contribute to the already overwhelming volume on rec.gardens.
Second, the WWW is a much better tool for presenting this information, and
more and more people have access to it these days, thanks to the popularity
of Mosaic and Netscape.  Finally, it is much easier for me to maintain the
FAQ on the Web than in the text version, and even easier to have to do
only one of the two.  This means that the FAQ will probably get updated
and posted more often, rather than going for months between updates.

There is still the problem, though, of people who don't have WWW access.
If you don't have WWW access, and you want the list of companies, send me
E-mail, and I'll send you the list.  Beware, though, the list is long,
and it may look strange (with all kinds of HTML formatting characters).


II. But First, A Word From Our Lawyers

All opinions in this document are the opinions of the author, unless
otherwise noted.  The author is well-known for his arbitrary and
capricious judgments, and cannot be held liable for anything he says
herein.  Besides, the author is a poor grad student, and suing him is
like trying to squeeze blood from a rock.


III. How To Tell a Good Company from a Bad One
    (or: Things To Look For Before Taking the Plunge)

If you are like me, you probably have a dozen or two catalogs from various
places, some fancy, others plain, and you're wondering who to order from
and how to tell the difference between a place that really cares, and a place
that is just trying to unload some poor, pathetic bits of green stuff on
The Gullible Majority.  In this section, I will outline what I think a
good mail order company should do, and what you should consider before
buying a plant sight-unseen.  Keep in mind that this is aimed at the
relative neophyte, who needs a little more service than the extremely
experienced gardener....there are plenty of companies which provide good
plants, but don't offer the level of service than many gardeners need.

   What a Good Mail-Order Company Will Do

1) Every perennial in the catalog should have a clearly indicated hardiness
range.  That is, for every perennial (anything you expect to last more than
one year) should have indicated which USDA hardiness zones it will survive in.
Simple adjectives like "hardy," or "tender," are NOT sufficient.  Perhaps I am
biased, being a Minnesota native currently living in Illinois, but I have seen
too many catalogs which do not include this crucial information.  Without
knowing this, it is too easy to buy plants that won't survive in your climate.
This also includes those of you who live in places like Southern California,
where it never gets cold, since some plants require a period of cold
temperatures every year in order to survive/bloom/etc.

2) Every plant should have its botanical (scientific) name listed.  Of course,
this doesn't count for things like roses or tomatoes, which everybody knows
what that are.  This may sound picky, but think about it: if you ever want
to get information on this plant from some other source, and they use their
own name, you might have a devil of a time figuring out how to get
information.  A plant's botanical name is unique.  I have seen places that
will take a standard variety of some plant, come up with a flashy
(trademarked) name, and sell it as something special.  Needless to say,
this is dishonest.

3) Information on the habitat requirements should be easy to find.  By this,
I mean answers to questions like, how much sun does it need, how much water,
and so forth.  Nearly every catalog has this, but if you see one that
doesn't, stay away.

4) A good company will be able to answer questions about their products.
Really, this is basic.  If you call them, and ask about something, they
should be able to answer your question.  If they can only take orders,
this is a Bad Sign.  (By the way, in many places, you can call your local
County Extension office to get information about plants, too.)

Finally, something that you should probably ignore:

5) Every mail order catalog that I've seen offers some sort of guarantee.
This should NOT be a factor in deciding where to buy from.  After all, what
good does it do if they replace a plant that died because you can't grow
oranges in Alaska?  The replacement will just die, too, and you'll spend
twice as much time on a plant that was Never Meant To Be.  Some people
have even noted an inverse relation between the quality of the guarantee
and the quality of the plants: the louder the company proclaims its
"FOOLPROOF 100% MONEY-BACK GUARANTEE," the worse the plants are when
they arrive.

   What To Consider Before Taking the Plunge

Okay, so you've got your heart set on the beautiful Creeping Green Stuff.
Before plunking your money and time on it (usually more time than money),
you should stop and ask yourself a few questions:

1) Will it grow in my area?  If they don't make it CLEAR (i.e. by telling
you the hardiness zone), then avoid that plant, or buy it from somebody who
will tell you.

2) Do I have a place to put it?  It is very easy to get spring fever when
all the catalogs start arriving midwinter, and wind up buying enough
plants to cover every square inch of your yard two or three times over.
Make sure you have a specific place for each and every plant you order, and
make sure you will have the time to plant it when it arrives.  Keep in
mind that you will probably have to plant them soon after they arrive,
and you might not be able to control the exact day they arrive.  Thus,
ordering 150 bushes for a new hedge from one place, all of which will
arrive via UPS on the same day and need to be planted immediately, is
probably not a good idea.  Believe me.  I've done it.

3) Will it really look the way I want it to?  Keep in mind that the
pictures in the catalogs are designed to sell plants, and the plants in
your garden will generally not look quite as nice.  I have seen a lot of
comments from people in rec.gardens about the rose Blue Girl as a particular
offender in this respect.  Also keep in mind that illustrations (and
photographs) can be very deceptive.


IV. What To Do When Your Order Arrives
    (or: OhMyGawd!  There's No DIRT With These Plants!)

The most important thing to do when your order arrives is DON'T PANIC!

Good.  Take a few deep breaths.

The reason your roses/trees/whatever arrived without any dirt is not because
the company sent you dead plants.  Shipping woody plants without dirt
("bare-root") is standard.  First, it does not harm the plants
much, as long as the company has taken steps to ensure that the roots don't
dry out.  Usually, this involves dipping the roots in some sort of stuff
that helps retain moisture.  Second, shipping plants bare-root helps keep
shipping costs down.  Shipping with dirt could easily double or triple the
weight of the plant when shipped, and make it that much more expensive to
buy.  Finally, shipping plants bare-root helps prevent the spread of pests
that live in the soil (like the Japanese beetle).  Needless to say,
unless you're buying small seedlings, it would be expensive for a company to
grow all their stock in greenhouses.

There are a few places which ship plants in pots.  Shipping a plant with the
dirt will be less traumatic to the plants, and, as a rule, you can expect
these plants to be healthier, but, because of shipping expenses, they will
often also be much smaller than bare-root plants--and more expensive.  Given
the option, I will usually buy the plant shipped in a pot, since the quality
is often much higher.  In addition, there are some plants which have to be
shipped in pots, simply because they're too fragile otherwise.

Generally, you will get a little booklet with your order explaining how
to plant your new plants.  Usually, the first thing to do (with bare root
plants) is to stick them in a bucket of water for some time.  You should do
this as soon as they arrive.  Then, dig a hole according to the booklet
instructions, and plant those buggers.

It may take some time for your new plants to leaf out, especially if they're
dormant when shipped.  Again, don't panic.  If you planted in the spring,
don't call the company to complain that the plants are dead until midsummer.
They'll just tell you to wait, because sometimes the plants take a while to
adjust to their new surroundings.


V. Which Catalog To Order From

If you are buying roses, you should certainly order from a catalog which
specializes in roses.  There are quite a few of these catalogs, and you will
generally get better selection, quality, and price than you would from buying
>from  a catalog which doesn't specialize in roses.

For some reason, this rule of thumb seems to be the other way around when
buying bulbs.  I have had the best experiences buying bulbs from White Flower
Farms, which is generally an outstanding catalog, but they aren't even
remotely limited to bulbs.  My worst experiences, on the other hand, were
with places that sell only, or mainly bulbs.  Go figure.

Not everybody will agree with my judgments.  After much consideration (and
several long discussions on the order of "Company X isn't really THAT bad!"),
I've decided that the main consideration has to be consistency.  That means
that I can count on large plants, of a uniformly high quality, every time I
order.  Note, too, that I haven't yet had anyone take issue with my list of
"Good" companies, just the "Bad" ones.  Having said that, here is my list of
best and worst companies, based primarily on my personal experiences:

Really Good Companies:

  White Flower Farms
  Nor'East Miniature Roses
  Heirloom Old Garden Roses (but see below)
  Gardener's Supply Company
  Shepherd's Garden Seeds

Companies To Avoid:

  Spring Hill
  Michigan Bulb Co.
  Breck's Bulbs

VI. Mail Order Houses, How to Contact Them, and My Opinions Thereof

There are literally hundreds--if not thousands--of mail-order plant
companies.  I used to include a list of companies here, but it has
become unmanagable.  So, to make the list easier to deal with, I've
moved it out of the FAQ, and onto the World Wide Web.  If you have
access to Mosaic, Netscape, Lynx, or any of the other Web browsers,
my list of mail order companies, how to contact them, and comments
that I (and others) have is available at:

http://seidel.ncsa.uiuc.edu/PBM-FAQ/

If you DON'T have access to the Web, I'll be happy to send you the list
(and the comments, etc.) via E-mail.  Just beware: the whole thing is
quite long.  If you just want information on a particular company or three,
you might want to ask about those specifically.  My E-mail address is
p-leppi@uiuc.edu.

If you have had experience with any mail-order company, good or bad, I
want to hear about it!  Your experiences will help other gardeners.
Please, send any comments you have to me, at the above E-mail address.
I'll include them in the on-line database, unless you don't want me to.

Finally, I know of only one company with an E-mail address.  If you know
of others, please let me know.  It would be really nice to have a list
of places to buy plants via E-mail (or get information, for that matter).

Here are the entries from the on-line database on those companies listed
above as my best and worst.  For each company, I will list their name,
mailing address, phone number, a general description of what they sell,
and my opinions.  Opinions are strictly mine, unless otherwise noted.
I will not indicate an opinion unless I have actually ordered something
>from  a company, unless the opinion is someone else's.

------

Breck's Bulbs
U.S. Reservation Center
6523 North Galena Rd.
Peoria, IL  61632
Orders: (309) 689-3870

Breck's sells bulbs imported from Holland: tulips, crocuses, daffodils, etc.

OPINION: Overall, I am not terribly impressed with Breck's.  Their merchandise
(contrary to the catalog hype) is not particularly premium, but their prices
are higher than most places, even some places which have superior stock.
They do not list hardiness for anything, though most of what they sell should
do fine most places in the U.S. (they don't sell any of the really tender
bulbs, like glads).  You can do better elsewhere.

Note that Breck's Bulbs appears to be the same company, or closely associated
with, Spring Hill, another company on my "Avoid" list.



------

Gardener's Supply Co.
128 Intervale Rd.
Burlington, VT  05401
Orders/Customer Service: (802) 863-1700
TDD: (802) 660-3530
Fax: (802) 660-4600

All kinds of gardening supplies, and a few plants.

OPINION: I have had good experiences with this company.  Their products
appear to be of a uniformly high quality, and a lot of people in rec.gardens
swear by them.  At least one of their employees reads this newsgroup, so
you may be able to get answers "from the horse's mouth," if you know who
to ask.  If anybody can supply me with his E-mail address, I would appreciate
it (for future editions).

------

Heirloom Old Garden Roses
24062 NE Riverside Dr.
St. Paul, OR  91737
Orders: (503) 538-1576

This is a catalog of "old" roses: not a hybrid tea to be found.  If you're
looking for english or unusual roses, this is the place to go.

OPINION: If you are a rose grower, and you are still growing hybrid teas,
this catalog will convert you.  Many of the old roses offered here are just
as good, if not better than, the more common modern roses.  The catalog offers
a lot of information about a zillion different roses, including hardiness,
and (my favorite) lists of roses well-suited for particular uses (i.e.
roses for growing over trellises, roses for scent, etc.).  Their stock is
first-rate, and all grown on its own roots, so there are no bud unions to
worry about.  There is no separate phone number for questions, but I found
the people answering the phone to be knowledgeable and helpful.  Two thumbs
up.  Note that they charge $5 for the catalog, but once you're on their
mailing list (i.e. after you buy something), they'll send it free.

Kristin Bruneau <KBRUNEAU@ssc-f1.umd.umich.edu>reports a different story:
About a month or so ago on rec.gardens.rose people started to discuss 
their experiences with the company.  Over all it was very negative.  
Some of the major complaints were that the plants were too young (9 
months or less), you never knew when they would get around to 
shipping your plant (some waited over a year), and the owners were 
very nasty when you had a problem (and basically said that's too 
bad).  The only reason I am passing this along is that the responses 
were consistently bad and many people's stories were extreme (no 
roots on the rose, horribly nasty experiences with the staff).

I too had a bad experience with them.  I ordered from them last year 
for the first time.  Even though the rose was in stock when I called 
in May, I had still not received it in July.  I had to call up and 
raise a fuss before they finally agreed to send it out.  Gosh only 
knows when I would have received it if I left it up to them.  When it 
arrived it only had two canes, one completely stripped off and 
dangling from the plant.  It only had two leaves on it and came with 
the worlds biggest slug that was the size of a nickle and covered in 
yellow fringe (Yuck!).  I called them to complain and their response 
was basically "Oh".  They only guarantee for the plants to arrive in 
good condition so I called.  I did not want it replaced at that time 
because it would be too late in the season to plant another one (if 
they finally got around to sending it to me).  I told them that I 
expected them to replace it if it died.  They finally agreed.  Well, 
at first it dropped the only two leaves that it had and I thought it 
would die.  After a while it did come back though.  It is doing ok, 
not great.  The rose was Rosa Rugosa, basically a weed.  Maybe that 
explains why I was so lucky it made it.

Anyway, since Heirloom Old Garden Roses was on the highly recommended 
list I thought I'd pass these experiences along.  I know that 
different people have different experiences and that we must weigh 
that in our minds when we order.  Just my 2 cents worth.

[I don't know if this is due to temporary management problems, or something
deeper.  I'm going to keep this company on my "good guys" list for the time
being, because of my good experiences, but I would appreciate any comments.]


------

Michigan Bulb Co.
1950 Waldorf NW
Grad Rapids, MI  49550-0500

Michigan Bulb Company sells bulbs, perennials, and other assorted plants.

OPINION: This catalog is filled with the kind of BREATHLESS PROSE and
AMAZING BARGAINS designed to stampede the gardener into making impulse
purchases.  Their prices are cheap, but selection is limited, and quality
was very mediocre.  In addition, I was unable to find a phone number anywhere
in the catalog--this could be a real problem, if you have problems with your
order.  To their credit, they generally include hardiness information.
On the other hand, they also sell the "Blue Girl" rose, which is an automatic
two demerits in my book.  Go elsewhere.

jsr@geneab.b23a.ingr.com (Jeff Reifsteck) reports:
I've had nothing but bad news from Michigan Bulb.  The plants were poor and
didn't survive.  They did replace them without question but my 40 creeping
myrtle (6" evergreen ground cover) became 40 crape myrtle (a big bush and
a lot more expensive).  I needed ground cover not bushes.  Except for the 
replacement of a "Blue Girl" rose all the other replacements were not plantable.

apilote@wtcd.DaytonOH.NCR.COM (Angela Pilote) reports:
Last year I ordered some things from them -- NEVER AGAIN!
I even told my husband to remind me of the poor quality
of there plants and bulbs if he even SEES me *looking* at one
of their catalogs.
None of the plants survived and only about half (maybe less)
of the bulbs came up. The bulbs also seemed very small
and I think I read somewhere that this is a sign that the
bulbs have not matured enough to bloom.
The prices seem to be good, but if you factor in the survival
rate and time invested -- it's not a deal. I'm better off paying
premium prices at my nursery for good quality plants and bulbs.

Evelyn Walker <ewalker@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> reports:
I have ordered perinnals from Michigan Bulb company, the first year
the blooms are not so big, but usually the second year it is bigger,
If you plant them in a fertilized area the plants do a lot better.
I have shasta daisies, carnations, guardinalla or whatever. I was
really pleased with it. I plan on getting a few more for some bare spots
in my yard

------

Nor'East Miniature Roses, Inc.
P.O. Box 307
Rowley, MA  01969
Phone: (508) 948-7964
Orders: 1-800-426-6485

On the West Coast:

Nor'East Miniature Roses, Inc.
P.O. Box 473
Ontario, CA  91762
Phone: (909) 984-2223
Orders: 1-800-662-9669

A large selection of miniature roses, and some supplies for those who like
to grow them (like miniature vases)

OPINION: This company is also on my "Good-Guys" list.  Their prices are
quite reasonable, and their stock is high quality.  Their catalog has a photo
of many of the offerings.  If you are into miniature roses (or would like to
be), this is the catalog to get.

lori@phantom.com reports:
cheap cute lil'roses.

------

Shepherd's Garden Seeds
30 Irene St.
Torrington, CT  06790
Orders: East (203) 482-3638
        West (408) 335-6910
Customer Service: (203) 482-3638
Horticultural Help: (408) 335-6910

Shepherd's sells mostly seeds, but also a few plants, and some kitchen and
garden supplies.

OPINION: The stylish illustrations in this catalog give it a distinctly
yuppie feel, but this is a good catalog nevertheless.  They have a number
of varieties that are hard to find elsewhere (a whole PAGE of ornamental
sunflowers!), and a wealth of useful horticultural information.  My order
arrived promptly, in good order, and appears to be high quality (it is still
a little soon for things to be sprouting around here, though).  Prices are
a little above average, but seeds are cheap no matter how you slice it.

------

Spring Hill
Mail Order Reservation Center
6523 North Galena Rd.
P.O. Box 1758
Peoria, IL  61656-1758
Orders: (309) 689-3800
Customer Service: (309) 689-3849

Spring Hill sells just about any kind of plant that catches their fancy.

OPINION: Spring Hill is one of these places that is in the business of
dumping cheap, inappropriate merchandise on unsuspecting customers.  The
quality of their merchandise is mediocre, even though the prices are about
average.  The provide little or no hardiness information, which is especially
troublesome considering that they sell some plants (like carnations) for
outdoor planting, even though they will not survive the winter in large
portions of the U.S.  Furthermore, if you ever buy anything from Spring Hill,
you will be on their mailing list but good.  I have received no less than
four different catalogs from them in the last two months (not even counting
the large number of "special offers" which seem to arrive about once a week,
and at least one telemarketing call).  Avoid this company like the plague.

Note that Spring Hill appears to be the same company, or closely associated
with, Breck's Bulbs, another company on my "Avoid" list.

Al Harrington [alh@hprnd.rose.hp.com] says:
I think you are being way to hard on Spring Hill.  I realize that 
they do not supply hardiness information, and that some of their 
plants are not in the best shape - their customer service is very
good.  I purchased the carnation collection (15 plants) and 2 of 
them died.  I got credited for all 15 as it was a collection.  

I ordered a lot of stuff from them (over 100 plants) and just about 
all are doing just fine - what isn't I get credit for.  

If nothing else seeing color pictures of *everything* they sell is 
nice.  :-)

------

White Flower Farm
Litchfield, CT  06759-0050
Orders: (203) 496-9600

White Flower Farm sells just about every kind of ornamental plant that one
might reasonably want to grow in North America.

OPINION: I will state my bias right up front: White Flower Farm is far and
away my favorite catalog.  They have a reputation for being "upscale,"
but their prices are only slightly above average.  Their catalog offers
a wealth of useful horticultural information, along with interesting
commentary about each and every plant.  All the information you need to know
(hardiness, planting requirements, light requirements, etc.) is compiled
in a single useful index, as well as being stated with the description of
each plant.  The catalog is organized alphabetically by genus name, so
in addition to being fun to read (and look at the pictures), it makes a
very useful reference.  Of course, the catalog is only secondary to the
merchandise.  Fortunately, their produce more than lives up to the high
standards set by the catalog: it is absolutely first rate.  When I was buying
daylillies, crocuses, and daffodils from White Flower Farm and other
catalogs, the bulbs or roots from White Flower were often more than twice
the size of the ones from other vendors, and at a comparable price.
Even if you never buy anything from White Flower Farm, you should get their
catalog as a reference, since it is almost as good as buying a book on
ornamental plants, but a whole lot cheaper.

Sean A. O'Hara (saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet) disagrees with some of my tone:
Not really a flame, but please!  I have a few of White Flower Farm's 
catalogues, and I do value them for their reference quality and nice 
photographs.  But their plants and garden information is distinctively East 
Coast in character.  I would very much enjoy growing a number of plants they 
list, but no longer attempt such folly as they are definitely inappropriate 
for my arid western climate (as would many of the plants I cherish in my 
garden be inappropriate for yours).

Please, let us not forget those 'less fortunate' souls who garden elsewhere! 
North America is a big place, and I do not expect my garden to look like 
your any more that I expect your to look like mine.

This reminds me of the search for a "North American gardening style".  I can 
think of nothing more ridiculous to search for - as if it could ever be 
defined for a continent like ours - or that you'd want to try!  This has 
always been a way to 'one up' the 'English style'.  Well, England is a 
relatively small place, and even then it contains diversity more than we 
imagine.

[I must plead guilty here.  Perhaps I should have said that they sell "just
about any ornamental plant one might reasonably want to grow East of the
Rockies...."]

lori@phantom.com reports:
I ordered fuscia (vodoo and swarthy gem) which aren't 
doing so well.  Tristar Strawberry plants satisfactory.  Begonia tubers 
mediocre.  I also liked the catalog ;-)

-----


VII. But Before We Go....

I hope this FAQ has been useful.  I also hope it has been accurate.  If you
find any mistakes, or have any comments, please send me E-mail at the
address listed at the top of the file.  Any suggestions for improving
future editions will be happily accepted, and possibly even acted upon.

This FAQ is also available via the World Wide Web.  The URL is:

http://seidel.ncsa.uiuc.edu/PBM-FAQ/

The WWW version includes everything in this file, plus an extensive (and
growing!) list of mail-order companies.  I also include comments on a
number of the companies, to help choose which are good, and which are
not worth it.

(NOTE TO EVERYONE WHO HAS READ THIS BEFORE!  THE URL HAS CHANGED!)
-- 
	                                   Peter Leppik--  p-leppi@uiuc.edu
Lost in the Information Supercollider

http://jean-luc.ncsa.uiuc.edu/People/PeterL/HOME.html


Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 17:12:38 -0500
From: Murray Ryan Pickard <photo@ksu.ksu.edu>
Subject: Pond FAQ.


Well, this is the initial (pre-alpha) release of the pond FAQ.  I hope
to clean this up quite a bit in the future, as well as provide much better /
more accurate information as people point out the errors in this one.

Currently it is roughly arranged in the format of:


Liners for ponds 

Flexible liners     
    How to do the sides to minimize liner show at surface 

Rigid liners 
    Some general suggestions to ponder prior the construction of a pond 

Filters/Pumps/Waterfalls  ....This section is really wimpy, and am looking
    forward to more input to build up this section with. 

Plants 

Fish

Book recommendations 

Societies/BBS's 

Mail Order sources   
    **NOTE I have not verified any of these.  Proceed with caution when        
    dealing with mail order.  If any of this info is INcorrect, PLEASE notify
    me with the correct info. 

Contributors to this initial release.  
    * These are people that had posted info or questions to the net regarding
    ponds and/or watergardens.  It's their info that helped to make up this FAQ,
    and those that contributed significant sections, are identified with that
    section.  AGAIN, This stuff had been pulled off the net over the past
    year or so by a couple of people, and emailed to me.
    

I MAKE NO CLAIMS THAT THE FOLLOWING IS CORRECT IN ALL INSTANCES, NOR THAT ANY
OF IT IS MY OWN WORK (of which some of it is) BUT RATHER THAT THIS IS PUBLIC
PROPERTY OF THE NET, AND I ONLY  MAINTAIN IT FOR CORRECTNESS, EASE OF USE 
(in the future), AND HOPEFULLY CORRECT AND ACURATE IDENTIFICATION OF THOSE THAT
HAVE CONTRIBUTED TOWARDS ITS EXISTANCE.  ANY AND ALL STANDARD (and if necessary,
unstandard) DISCLAIMERS APPLY. 

Please send any corrections/additions/requests to: 
Murray Pickard aka photo@ksu.ksu.edu

ENJOY!


-
POND FAQ
-

Pond Construction:  Broken down into flexible liners, rigid liners, and
pre-formed, followed by some general contruction recommendations for whatever
you should choose to go with.

A.  Flexible liners:  There are three type of flexible liners available to the
pond builder, these are:

    1.  PVC:  (poly vinly choride) a relatively cheap liner, however, 
    must be protected from UV exposure from the sun.

    2.  EPDM:  (Ethylene Propylene Diene Monomer) This is used alot of 
    times for roofing, comes in various thicknesses.  General opinion is 
    45 mil is fine for pond use. Some sources claim that you need to 
    get the "fish grade".  According to Jack H from the Garden Pond BBS,
    he's checked with the manufacturer and the word is that they sell 
    exactly the same product as "fish-grade" and for roofing.

    3. Butyl:  For the most part, is considered a more expensive version
    of EPDM, supposedly differs in chemical composition.

EPDM (and Butyl) are available from roofing people (check your yellow pages). 
The two leaders in the field are Firestone (trade name "Rubbergard") and
Carlisle (trade name "Sure-Seal").

zaphod@ctrg.rri.uwo.ca (Lance R. Bailey)
 it's time again for the annual posting of how to finish off the 
 edges of a garden pond. I hope this helps.

Pond Liners and the Sun 
----------------------- 
There are a number of reasons to keep the sun from shining on your pond liner.
First off, liners are not particularly pretty, and secondly the sun can/will
decay the liner over time. You have essentially two tools with which to
hide the liner -- earth/stones  and water.
 
The first issue in hiding your liner is to create a level pond. Let's say that
your pond is 10 feet long, and you have one end only a few inches lower than
the other. If you were to use this without better leveling, then after filling
you would have a minimum of 4 inches showing at the one end -- and since many
pool owners keep the level down an inch or two, you have *half a foot* of 
liner showing -- not good. So the more level your pond is the better -- beg,
borrow or buy a 4 foot contractors level, or strap a two foot level to a
piece of straight, stiff wood and use that.
 
The other issue in hiding your liner is how you finish the edges of the pond.
Traditionally, ponds are finished as follows: the liner comes up out of the
water, over the edge and flatish rocks are lain on top of the liner to hide 
the liner. The rocks overhang the edge to even better hide the liner, 
but this has never really hidden it to my eyes. (see figure 1) 
 
figure 1. traditional edge finishing
 
                      XXXXXXXXXXXXXX      <--- cap stone
ground level ===========--------+         <--- gap showing liner
                                |~~~~~~~  <--- water level
                                \
                                 \ <-----      liner
 
 
Two better approaches have been discovered by me spring 1993 in the catalogues 
of Lee Valley Tools (Queensview Drive, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada) If they sourced
these ideas from elsewhere, I've never seen them and they did not credit them.
 
Approach one is how I did my pond. When you bring up the liner, tuck it 
under a course or two of bricks, and then back over the bricks. Finish with 
capstones. The two courses of bricks stay submerged in the water, and 
liner,  being beneath and behind them is completely hidden from sight/sun. 
In my pond, the water must drop a good 6 inches before *starting* to show 
liner. see figure 2.  
 
figure 2. submerged bricks to hold liner
 
                      XXXXXXXXXXXXXX      <--- cap stone
ground level ===========+----- 
                        | BBBB~~~~~~~     <--- water level
                        | BBBB      <---       bricks in courses (rows)
                        +-------+
                                |
                                \
                                 \ <-----      liner
 
 
Approach two is how I might well do the next pond, but it requires a extra
one to two feet of surface area. The Idea is to create a natural setting
with pea gravel/sand and a bog around the edges. Somehow I suspect that 
the raccoons might find this very easy to disturb, but one never knows.
 
Incorporate a two foot wide, 6 inch deep all around the pond, in addition to
any shelves you already have for shallow water plants. Bring the liner up
and along this shelf and about 5 inches up the edge. Along the inside edge of
this shelf, put in a course (row) or two of bricks -- these will hold the 
gravel in place. back fill the shelf with gravel/sand to fill in the shelf. 
Fill the pool until half of the gravel is submerged, giving a beach-like
edge to the pond. shallow water plants can be planted in the gravel/sand, 
with or without pots. (figure three for those keeping count)
 
figure 3. more natural finish
 
ground level =======oooooo
                     \ oooooo            <--- gravel
                      \ooooooooo~~~~~~   <--- water level
                       \ooooooooo
                        \ ooooooooBBBB
                         \ooooooooBBBB   <--- bricks holding gravel
                          +-----------+
                                      |
                                       \
                                        \ <--- liner
 
 
In both of these alternative, the liner is only visible through the water
itself, still not the best in my opinion, but still a lot better than the
gap of exposed liner around the edge of the pond.
 
enjoy. --Lance R. Bailey
 
B.  Rigid liners:
    1. Concrete: 
    [Under construction....ie,I need your info/knowledge/recommendations]
	
    2. Preformed plastic pools:
    These are usually some kind of molded sturdy plastic tub.  There are 
    some that are free standing, just set on your deck/patio and add water,
    fish, plants, fountain, etc.  The others need to be set in the ground 
    in the same fashion as the flexible liners, then filled.  (the free 
    standing can also be set in the ground if desired) 

    3. Wiskey barrel halves:  
    These are relatively inexpensive, some may not need a liner, and will 
    hold a dwarf water lily, some bog plants and a couple of fish.  Just 
    plant the plants in the bottom of the barrel (about 1/4 to 1/2 filled 
    with dirt, and some sand/gravel on top of soil)  These make a nice 
    addition on the corner of a patio, some people have set them up so one
    makes a fountain into another with a small recirculating pump, or using
    two of them as supports for either end of a bench.

The following are general comments, recommendations, etc from various
contributors of their own experiences.  Edited for space conservation, 
hopefully the content of their recommendations remains unchanged.

As to liability and ponds, you will have to check your local by-laws as to how
deep you can build it without having to surround it with fences and self-locking
gates.  In rural areas around here (Ottawa, Canada), you can even have an
un-fenced swimming pool.  In the city, thou shalt surround thy pool with a
particular kind of fencing & submit plans & get permits, etc, if thy pool is
more than 24" (61cm) deep.  I have a theory that you could by-pass the by-law by
putting a horizontal fence (strong, rust-free, wire mesh) in the pool at the 24"
level so that children who wander in would not be able to drown (the mesh would
have to be a tight enough weave to make solid footing for them) and plants would
be able to enjoy the deeper water and grow up through the mesh.  This is only a
theory!!  It's undoubtably better to refrain from digging more than 24".... but
then your pond will freeze in the winter & you'll have to rescue your fish and
any frogs who dropped by and your hardy water lilies...

LINERS-  I've convince my pool man to give me a pool liner that he's 
replacing with a new one.  There's many who will tell you that a pool 
liner will have absorbed the chemicals, but it can be cleaned.  In 
addition, others have talked about using one of the kiddy pools, 
waterbed mattresses slit open, etc.

WATERFALLS--Lowe's has a pre-formed cascade that I intend to use instead of
building one by hand.  It seems a lot easier as well as more sturdy, with less
chance of leaks."

>How deep should the pond be? 
	2-3' seem good enough. You want the pool to stay liquid in some parts 
	during the winter. I live in New Jersey and my pool is about 3' deep. 
	It does fine in the winter. 

About three feet deep is alright.  If you make it too deep you won't be able to
see your fish.  Try to have multiple levels for various types of plants.  Put a
lot of water plants in your pond to keep it from getting too hot.  Plants add
oxygen to the water when it is sunny, when they aren't photosyntysizing, they
drain oxygen from the water.  So a waterfall will help add oxygen to the water.

Depends on your climate.  If your summers are very hot, a shallow pond will cook
your fish.  If your winters are sufficiently cold, a shallow pond will freeze
solid.

>I want to build a big pond: what kind of problems may I run into?
Depends on how big.  If your water table is very high you may need underdrains
on a liner pond to prevent wall collapse when empty.  If your pond is going to
be very deep, you may need steel reinforcing in a concrete pond, and/or sloped
walls.

Holes are a pain to find; do everything possible to avoid them (sand (or pads of
damp newspaper) under the liner, maybe even a second liner).  Make sure that
lawn runoff can't get into the pond; fertilizer or compost runoff makes it hard
to keep the pond balanced.

DO NOT SITUATE YOUR POND ANYWHERE NEAR TREES. If they are not evergreen, they
will fill your pond with leaves in the fall and if they are evergreen, they will
fill your pond with needles year round.

Also, if you want plants in your pond, you will want to put it in a place that
receives at least 6 hours of DIRECT sun a day. Many water plants need as much
sun as you can give them (especially water lilies) and will not do well if given
less. There are a few that will do well with less sun, but you should try to
make it as sunny as possible.

Think about what you will do when the pond needs water. Is there a hose  that
can reach the spot? Could you channel the runoff from the roof of the  house
into the pond? 

It's not worth cutting corners on a pond liner. After you go to the trouble of
digging the hole why put in a substitute for a liner which will only last a
couple of years tops and will require you to drain the pond and upset fish,
plants and froggies in a year or two and do all that work over again? There is
nothing more upsetting than to walk out some morning to find your pond dry and
the fish flipping on the bottom. Cheap liner substitutes just will not hold up
to the sunlight and the freeze/thaw cycles of the winter.There are some
specialty fishpond suppliers which will sell you just the size piece you need
from a bulk roll and cheaper than buying one of the prepackaged kits.
(Lilypons?) An alternative which we have used for small ponds are fiberglass or
PVC stock watering tanks from a farm supply. You can get them from 40 to 500
gallons. Prices are usually around $45-$55 for a 100 gallon which is about 5ft
long, 2ft wide and 2 ft deep. They are usually HEAVY-duty, black, and will last
forever. You just dig a hole to drop it in or surround it with rocks to disguise
it.


> 2. Pumps/filters/plumbing.  Recommedations on size pump vs size pond

Or whether you need one?  We do just fine without, and I think that might also
be possible with real ponds, too, so long as there's a good mix of sun and
shade, flora and fauna, good luck and bad.

Little Giant makes a good line.  Obviously, for 120V pumps, you need a GFCI on
the circuit.  Check local codes for wiring, conduit, and burial depths.  Size
depends on the usage (circulation, waterfall, stream, fountain?).  No simple
answer.  A nitrogen filter helps if you don't want to hassle with keeping a
balanced ecology.  A balanced (fish/plants) ecosystem is better, IMHO.

>>I also have a UV sterilizer which ELIMINATES green water and 
>>will also kill free swimming parasites if you have any. The pond 
>>is three feet deep and I can see the bottom clearly.

I use an Aquanetics 15w inline quartz unit that I had previously used on a
fishtank.  You need quartz because it allows the tube to maintain its desired
operating temperature with cold pond water. Its also safer, non-quartz units
have the water running on the bare bulb (!) with O-ring seals at the ends. I had
one of these break (all by itself) under a fishtank once.  You could hook it
into your existing pump line. It sits outside the pond and is cylindrical 3"
diameter by about 18 inches long white PVC.  Half or 3/4 inch (I forget) FPT
fittings.   

>All my plants are doing well and my "test fish" (shubunkins) are breeding 
>like crazy, but the water has stayed fairly green all summer.   

UV will fix that green water. Also water changes will help. Since you already 
have a big pump, just add a few fittings and water your garden with it.   Also
regarding filtration, if your fish are breeding your water quality is probably
fine. You might get a test kit and see what the ammonia,  pH, nitrite and
nitrate levels are.    

>- Can one easily make a biological filter that is  >readily cleanable?   

I use sponge inserts for AquaClear model 2000 aquarium filters. They are about
$3 mail order, roughly 4x4x10 inches. I get a few feet one inch diameter black
poly hose from the hardware  store, drill a few holes (well a few dozen) and 
slide the sponges  over the hose. First I cut a slot long ways through the 
sponge with a long narrow bladed kitchen knife. I wire an aquarium power head
($10 mail order) to one end, cap the other end and presto.  The sponge openings
are large enough to not catch lots of particulate matter so the thing runs for
many weeks before the flow gets to where I feel it needs cleaning. I put it on
the pond bottom and direct the flow up so I can see the faint disturbance and
know all is working. If you are really careful you can make two and clean 
alternate ones every 4-8 weeks so you don't reduce the total bacteria population
too drasticly. I plan to put a seperate sump/filter (made from a buried plastic
trash can) near my pond out of site so all this hardware (sponges, UVs) can go
into it for easier cleaning.   

>- How do you keep that stringy algae down to a managable quantity?
   Probably my frequent water changes keep nitrates too low for this to be
   a problem. I have some algae on the sides but its not invasive.   
   
>- Is there any control for duckweed?   
    Hmmm. I regularly put duckweed from my fishtank into the pond and it is
    eaten in a few days. Maybe you are overfeeding your fish?   
	
> Do I need a filter to clean the water or will the fish/plants do the job?  

Depends on the size of pond and the number, size, and kind of fish.  For
example, if you put one 3-inch long goldfish in a 1000 gallon pond, you won't
need a filter.  But if you put one foot-long carp in the same pond, you will. 
If your fish load is not too excessive, the filter could be as simple as an
air-driven sponge filter (eg. tetra's pond filter). 

Keep track of you ammonia and algea levels.  If your ammonia level gets too 
high, or you can't see your fish, you should consider building one.  With 
large ponds ammonia usually isn't a problem.  (Unless you have too many fish-
be conservative.)     
        
The filtration method I'm looking at right now is to combine a gravel base
with the main outflow drawn through it, like an under-gravel filter, with 
an above-ground biological filter in a second large tank. I will probably 
make that tank a reverse flow, with the water pumped into the support grid 
at the bottom and percolating up through several layers of graded material. 
The outflow at the top will return via a broad waterfall to the pond...

If you get the right balance of fish/plants/scavengers, they will sustain
themselves. However, since you want a waterfall, you might want to get a filter 
to pump the water up to the top of the falls instead of a water pump.           

Don't go nuts on the fish! Stock sparingly with goldfish or koi or
whatever. Goldfish are a bit more showy and hardy, but I prefer koi for their
majesty.

Also, koi are reputed to be 'trainable'. I've heard you can get them to 'puff'
a cigar, take food from your hand, etc. However, they do tend to root in plant
pots a bit.

The pump instructions and box will tell you (and so will the books) how big  a
pump for how many gallons of water you intend to have in your pool.  The  books
will tell you how to figure the gallons.

>I'm not too sure about keeping a sterile environment. You will probably 
>get mosquitoes if you don't have anything to eat the larvae.  Also, any 
>chemicals you use to keep the water clear (free from algae) will harm
>your higher plants when they get splashed.    

Good point - Getting a couple of Mosquito Fish (A type of minnow) will 
do a good job, and they'll remain unobtrusive.

A good cover of water plants (say, just over 1/2 of the posd surface) should 
keep the pond pretty clear of algae. A few goldfish (or relatively hardy
tropical fish, like paradise fish) will keep the pond clear of insects. It
hardly adds any work to the pond (removing dead leaves and fertilizing the
plants weekly is about it: the fish don't have to be fed once the pond is
established), and the results are much more stable than trying to maintain  a
sterile environment.   

>Do you have tropical lillies? Do you have to winter them over out of 
>the pond where you live? If so, do you a favorite technique for doing 
>this?   

No lilies. Hyacinth plus pennywort and duckweed from my fish
tanks. I need to get more plants.

Plants:	Not cheap around here. Papyrus around $6 to $15.
 	Elephant ears about the same. Lotus $15-$45.
 	I have a water iris that keeps coming back every
	year, so that helps.

PLANTS

Aquarium shops will sell you the plants to use as oxygenating plants.  If 
you're lucky enough to have a Lowe's, I found water lilies there three weeks 
ago for $9 each, compared to everyone else's price of $25 and up.

> 5. Plants (what are must have's and region, and care of) 
I'm Sunset Zone 3, USDA Zone 6.  Japanese Iris are hardy here, and do well 
in the margins (or just potted anywhere in a shallow pot).  Water lilies are
pretty, but don't overwinter.  Water Lettuce does well, but bugs love it, and
it isn't real pretty.  Also doesn't overwinter.

The one piece of real information in this message:  Anachris will bloom in late
spring, with pretty little white flowers held above the water  (in California,
aanyway)  I have not seen this mentioned in any of the water pond books.  

How do I plant my Oxygenating plants?
    When you get your oxygenators, you should have 6 to 10 stems of the plant,
    about 8 to 10 inches long.  Plant about half of the stem in the dirt.
    (w/ rubberband around base of bunch)  You can plant 3 to 4 bunches in 
    a 6" pot, and will want 3 bunches per sq. yd. of surface area.  The pots 
    can be set to a depth of about 2 ft, deeper once established.

> 3. Fish (carp, goldfish, fancy goldfish, koi, ???)
Unless you have a pretty big pond, assume that the fish'll get eaten.
I prefer just nice, cheap feeder goldfish.

Goldfish.  Cheap goldfish.  

I'm hoping to use just plain old goldfish as there are too many cats around  my
neighborhood to risk the more expensive koi.

Literature (books and magazines):
Philip Swindells is the presiden of the International Water Lily Society
and you may want to look at his book "The Complete Book of Water Gardening" 
Another good book is "The Stapeley book of Water Gardens".

Pondscapes Magazine
Magazine of the National Pond Society.
Pond Publishing Company
PO Box 449
Acworth, GA 30101
(404)975-0277  

Ponds and Water Gardens 2nd ed. by Bill Heritage.  
Blandford  publishing. ISBN 0-7137-1861-7.  

The Family Handyman, June 1990 Issue.  couple of good articles on pond
construction.  good idea on filter construction. question the potting method.
def. go with level "steps" inside the pond instead of sloping sides. Back
issues:  $3.50 each, Handyman Back Issues Dept., PO Box 1917, Marion, OH, 43305.

Garden Pools and Fountains, Ortho books.  ISBN 0-89721-149-9.  

Ortho and Sunset both have reasonably good references, especially as pertaining
to plants.

_The Tetra Encyclopedia of Koi_ Tetra Press, c1989, ISBN 3-923880-98-7

Harrrowsmith Water Garden Book

James Allison's _Water_in_the_Garden_ 

Societies, clubs, BBS's:
The Garden Pond BBS is for pond construction, and aquatic
plant information.  We have pond files and a pond message area.  I
just returned from the NW International Water Lily Symposium in
Boise.  Stop in sometime if you need more info. 1-503-735-3074.
Complete pond construction is beyond the scope of this message, but
I am happy to answer any questions I can.
 
     Good luck!
Jack

National Pond Society
PO Box 449
Ackworth GA 30101
(800)742-4701
(annual membership includes 10 issues of Pondscapes magazine, a color
publication written by and for pond keepers)

Water Garden Society of Greater Kansas City
(no further info available at this time)

Mail Order sources for about everything pond / fish related

Dolphin Outdoors
Fiberglass Ponds for gardens and fish
Send SASE for brochure and prices
1808 W. Campbell Ave
Campbell, CA 95008
(408) 379-7600

Hermitage Garden Pools
Fiberglass garden pools, rock waterfalls, self-contained redwood
waterwheels; bubbling fantasias
Send $1.00 for color catalog
PO Box 361, Dept. A
Canastoga, NY 13032
(315) 697-9093

Lilypons Water Gardens
pond liners, accessories, plants (lilies, lotus, etc), fish, etc.
100-page Catalog subscription $5.00
3 locations:
Dept. 1626
PO Box 10
Buckeystown, MD 21717-0010
(800) 723-7667

Dept. 1626
PO Box 188
Brookshire, TX 77423-0188
(800)766-5648

Dept. 1626
PO Box 1130
Thermal, CA 92274-1130
(800) 685-7667 or (800)365-5459 (different ads had different Ph # here)

Paradise Water Gardens
(617) 447-4711  FAX: (617) 447-4591
Great books on water gardening (too numerous to list here); water lilies,
fountains, pumps, Koi, goldfish, aquatic plants, tub gardens.
Send $3.00 for a 60-page full-color catalog
56 May St. FN06
Whitman, MA 02382

Pets Unlimited
(813) 442-2197
Featuring TetraPond products
Send $3.00 for color brochure, price list, plus "Digest for a Successful
Pond" 
1888 Drew
Clearwater, FL 34625

REAL GOODS
they've got pumps and solar panels
(800) 762 7325
FAX: (707) 468 0301

Resource Conservation Technology, Inc.
(301) 366-1146
Butyl Pond liners. 20-year warranty. Won't harm fish or plants, won't 
stiffen in cold weather, resists sunlight better than plastics. Call or
write for literature and samples of the liner and Liner Protection Fabric.
2633 N. Calvert St.
Baltimore, MD 21218

Santa Barbara Water Gardens 
Box 4353
Santa Barbara, CA 93140  

Slocum Water Gardens
Water Lily Catalog: water lilies, lotus, fancy Goldfish
Complete info on tubs, concrete pools, and ponds
Send $3.00 
Slocum Water Gardens, Dept. FI592
1101 Cypress Gardens Rd.
Winter Haven, FL 33880

TetraPond
32-mil, flexible PVC liners, 10-year guarantee; accessory products,
fish and plant foods, water treatments, etc.
Write for free "how-to" brochure
Tetra Sales (USA)
Department P-9208
201 Tabor Road,
Morris Plains, NJ 07950

That Fish Place  
A large mail order outfit for aquarium people, however they do carry some of the
pumps for ponds. 
(800) 733-3829

Van Ness Water Gardens
Water lilies, bog plants, info, pumps, filters, maintenance
(714) 982-2425   For 56-page color catalog, send $4.00
2460 N. Euclid , Dept. 877
Upland, CA 91786-1199

Waterford Gardens
(201) 327-0721
Water Lilies, bog plants, lotus, pools and accessories, ornamental fish
$5.00 for 1992 catalog
74 East Allendale Road, Dept F
Saddle River, NJ 07458

Waterland USA
Fountains for your home, patio, or garden
(800) 321-6178 Call for free brochure
27071 Cabot Rd., Suite 116
Laguna Hills, CA 92653

William Tricker, Inc.
(216) 524-3491
Rare and unusual varieties of water lilies, aquatic plants, fish, etc.
Send $3.00 for full-color catalog
7125 Tanglewood Drive
Independence, OH 44131

Favorite quote, overheard at the aquatic nursery:
Customer:  I want to buy some Koi, and what do I have to do to make them breed?
 
Nurseryman:  Well, it's pretty hard to stop them.

Contributors (whether they knew it or not!)  I hope this is inclusive of
everyone whose messages had been sent to me by a couple of netters that had
collected large collections of postings, and whose information helped to form
this FAQ.

aab@cichlid.com (Andy Burgess)
adam@microware.com (Adam Goldberg)
ahill@hpbs972.boi.hp.com (Andy Hill)
athdebn@scifac.indstate.edu (Debbie Nelson)
bailey@butyng.bu.edu (Sherry Bailey)
cfb@fc.hp.com (Charlie Brett)
chendd@UG.EDS.COM (Diane DeMers Chen)
dbell@cup.portal.com (David J Bell)
enenkel@cs.toronto.edu (Robert Frederick Enenkel)
fog@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Larry Fogelquist)
hanna@smsc.sony.com (Nancy Hannaford X-xxx)
Jack.Honeycutt@f52.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Jack Honeycutt)
jan@bagend.uucp (Jan Isley)
jfhess@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu (john hess)
jhb@cvsd.cv.com (Jim Bishop)
mcrafts@dale.ksc.nasa.gov (Mark Crafts)
mnb@voodoo.boeing.com (Michael Burr)
onstotc@prism.cs.orst.edu (Curt Onstott)
peteo@sgi.com (Pete Orelup)
palepink@lily.arts.com 
rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com (Rick Hoffman)
richb@kronos.com (Rich Braun)
sjane@BNR.CA (sjs)
sonny@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joseph.j.de rosa)
stevem@gold.gvg.tek.com (Steve Miller) 
stevew@hpindda.cup.hp.com (Steve Weber)
stoffel@oasys.dt.navy.mil
tjgorn01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu (Tim Gornet)
vaughan@europa.eng.gtefsd.com (Kirby Vaughan)
xku@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
zaphod@ctrg.rri.uwo.ca (Lance R. Bailey)