Article: 95012 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <437F749B.7174ED0C@spamaway.com> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 05:53:15 +1100 From: aaa@spamaway.com Subject: Re: FAQ References: <1129903535.253354.121770@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1129905039.542653.237720@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <56mil11d1o9mpajvcsq8fnfocq43gv0te1@4ax.com> <11loti63r2mj524@corp.supernews.com> <4375f3e4.77929901@news.iol.ie> The Magnum wrote: > ....(snip) > Lol, great command of the English language there. I wonder if his morse is > as bad........ > (snip) > ......****. your **** now trying to say Amateurs above the entry level > never cause interference or mess about sometimes on the air.... b-ll-cks. Article: 95013 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Ken Scharf Subject: Re: choke input voltage doubler? References: <-oWdnRnFu6GVOePeRVn-qQ@adelphia.com> <-sudnS4NPMzb0OLeRVn-gw@adelphia.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 14:05:42 -0500 John Popelish wrote: > Wes Stewart wrote: > >> On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 23:06:03 -0500, John Popelish >> wrote: >> >> >>> Ken Scharf wrote: >>> >>>> I was looking at some power supply circuits for >>>> tube linears and was thinking about the full wave >>>> voltage doubler. This is basicly two half wave >>>> rectifiers in series. Now I could build this >>>> circuit with a choke input filter for each half >>>> wave rectifier of the voltage doubler, and I could >>>> put the chokes in the lead without the rectifier. >>>> In this case I could use one choke for both halfs >>>> of the voltage doubler. The output should then >>>> be about .9 * rms input voltage * 2 >>>> or 1.8 times the rms voltage of the transformer. >>>> >>>> Has anybody ever tried this? >>>> >>>> ------>|-------- >>>> ) | | >>>> ) | --- >>>> ) | --- >>>> )-----^^^^^^----| >>>> | | >>>> | --- >>>> | --- >>>> |--|<--------| >>>> >>>> Crude schematic showing transformer secondary >>>> diodes filter choke and capacitors. >>> >>> >>> If the choke is directly in series with the transformer, it will have >>> to pass AC, and that won't provide normal choke input filtering >>> (which steadies the DC current after the rectifier), but just puts an >>> impedance between the transformer and the doubler. >> >> >> >> All chokes are in series with the transformer and pass some AC >> component. If they only passed DC we would need them. > > > I was using DC in the "unidirectional current" sense, not the "having no > AC components" sense. > >> Without giving this too much (likely enought) thought I think this >> will fail because without loads across -each- filter cap, the critical >> inductance will not be obtained. > > > Regardless of the loads across the caps, this inductor cannot ever > achieve critical inductance, since that is the inductance that keeps the > current reaching zero, each half cycle. In this circuit, the inductor > precedes the rectifiers, so its current must pass through zero twice per > cycle, regardless of the capacitor load. > > You could also put it in series with the primary, instead, and achieve > the same effect (with the proper scaling to account for the turns ratio). > >>> There may be a way to incorporate an inductor into a doubler, but I >>> don't think this is it. > > Why you all may be right, what you are failing to see is that the choke is simply in the negative leg of the positive half wave rectifier, and in the positive leg of the negative half wave rectifier, and both rectifier outputs are in series. ------>|----- ) | ) --- ) --- ) | ---^^^^^^^---- This is a half wave rectifier with a choke input filter with the choke in the negative end. Will this work? Now connect this circuit in series with negative output half wave and you notice you have two chokes in parallel. Yes you do need a bleeder resistor or minimal load to satisify the choke current requirement, I simply didn't draw this, the resting current of a class AB1 linear would satisfy that. Now what am I failing to see? Article: 95014 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: fmmck@aol.com (Fred McKenzie) Subject: Re: choke input voltage doubler? Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 14:24:58 -0500 Message-ID: References: In article , Ken Scharf wrote: > I was looking at some power supply circuits for > tube linears and was thinking about the full wave > voltage doubler. This is basicly two half wave > rectifiers in series. Now I could build this > circuit with a choke input filter for each half > wave rectifier of the voltage doubler, and I could > put the chokes in the lead without the rectifier. > In this case I could use one choke for both halfs > of the voltage doubler. Ken- This doesn't make sense to me. My recollection of the choke-input filter, is that it can only be used following a full-wave rectifier. You are suggesting they be used prior to the rectifier, which is not where a "filter" is normally placed. Instead, the choke would act as a series impedance to the AC source. It seems to me that you can't separate the capacitors from the rectifiers, or you wouldn't have doubler action. Therefore, capacitor-input is the only filtering that makes sense for this circuit. Of course you might use the choke in a Pi configuration between the output and another filter capacitor. If you have any success with this approach, it will be from extra voltage generated by the choke's collapsing magnetic field. This is similar to how switching regulators work, but without any active regulation. 73, Fred, K4DII Article: 95015 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <437F7FBB.BF3F9A20@spamaway.com> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 06:40:43 +1100 From: aaa@spamaway.com Subject: Re: FAQ - Interested? Start here! References: <1132348647.448899.309210@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> And so, on and on go the anti CB and anti-M3 ramblings (rumblings?)... What about volunteering to serve on the RSGB or is that too hard? Just better to crticise... And what about showing new M3s a better way to behave.. by **example**. Nah, just gripe and snipe.. easier. Polymath wrote: > What is Ham Radio? > > Ham Radio is a technical pursuit for those who > are interested in the science of radio wave > propagation... > These CB types engage in the competitive activities > with their Cheque-Book-purchased off-the-shelf radios > in a forlorn effort to prove that they are Radio Hams. > > No _REAL_ Radio Hams are deceived by such people! > etc. etc. etc. Most (not just CB and M3) amateurs, sadly, use off the shelf cheque book purchased rigs and accessories. Amateur radio *has* changed. I think it was better BTW, but that has been changed by technology. The number of intolerant people blaming the wrong things has not changed - just become more readily readable by eg newsgroups. Again, simply the march of technology. A good hobby would move with technology. Adapt where it has to, and always be positive. Most of you regulars to this NG do not adapt. You are negative and destructive (eg towards the RSGB and M3s). Your continual sniping about both is a bore. References to eg Potty Bar were once mildly amusing but now tedious. Specifically, someone on here recently reported that he had been wrongly castigated by an M3 for transmitting off channel. A clear case of where technical experience was lacking. An amateur with the true spirit would have tactfullly explained the facts. And that was one of the *better* comments! Most are non-specific and generalised sniping. Yes, there are poor M3s, and there are also poor full calls, and poor but fast CW senders and so on. Any non-amateur who lurks across this group will quickly form an opinion that radio amateurs are a bunch of negative misfits and the sooner that BPL for the masses reduces their facility the better. BTW, for reasons beyond my control I'm not a member of the RSGB. I'm not an M3 either. Just an amateur. And why do I bother, I sense some ask. I suppose I'm still an incurable optimist who thinks some conscience may be pricked and this behaviour improved.. Why be here at all (Jock - one of the better ones - asked) See my earlier reply. Come on chaps and chapesses. Lift your game. Time is running out. Do not be like the famous Australian amateur (a UNIX expert) who responded to accidental OT posts to their newsgroup (I think it was then called just "radio") in the early days of the Net by flaming. His "cleverest" flame was metres long printouts which informed people they were on the wrong group. By giving such a negative image to amateur radio to so many technically curious people (surely exactly those we want) he did a great deal of lasting damage to the amateur cause - perhaps aided in its disappearance. He is actually a public-spirited amateur, but what an error! Some of you are public spirited too. So for those, a plea for more tolerance. More thinking before putting keyboard, mouth, key into gear... Or will the replies show the absolute opposite? We shall see.. Time gets short. BPL for HF and other pressures for VHF/UHF/SHF could arguably squeeze us all out. The efforts of this group do not help in resisting this. They vastly aid it. Any lurkers are going to have a most negative impression of what probably are a bunch of fine people doing their best to hide it! "Amateur radio - so that's what it's like - best legislate against it without delay!" Anyone got anything *new* to add? Usenet is meant to aid debate, so have a go. But please not the usual, broing, repetive stuff; we've read it all before... Thanks for reading this; I now feel slightly better... Article: 95016 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "John, N9JG" Subject: 1 phase or 2 phase? (HTML) Message-ID: <5lLff.343986$084.30720@attbi_s22> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 19:49:22 GMT This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C5ED18.6C963AF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0040_01C5ED18.6C963AF0" ------=_NextPart_001_0040_01C5ED18.6C963AF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My stepper motor is a Hurst LSG42012F76P, and I want to interface this = motor to a Modern Technology MTSD-V1 unipolar stepper motor driver = board. The driver board has a switch, which I must set for either 1 = phase or 2 phase. Below is a drawing which came with the motor, and an = animation of a unipolar 2 phase stepper motor. Note that the Blk/Wht and = Blu/Wht motor wires will be connected together and to +14 volts DC. What = I want is confirmation that this is indeed a 2 phase motor. My guess = would be that a 1 phase motor would have current flowing through only = one winding at a time, whereas the motor below has current flowing = simultaneously through two windings. ------=_NextPart_001_0040_01C5ED18.6C963AF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My stepper motor is a Hurst = LSG42012F76P, and I=20 want to interface this motor to a Modern Technology MTSD-V1 = unipolar=20 stepper motor driver board. The driver board has a switch, which I must = set for=20 either 1 phase or 2 phase. Below is a drawing which came with the motor, = and an=20 animation of a unipolar 2 phase stepper motor. Note that the Blk/Wht and = Blu/Wht=20 motor wires will be connected together and to +14 volts DC. What = I want is=20 confirmation that this is indeed a 2 phase motor. My guess would be that = a 1=20 phase motor would have current flowing through only one winding at = a time,=20 whereas the motor below has current flowing simultaneously through two=20 windings.
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------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C5ED18.6C963AF0-- Article: 95017 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "xpyttl" References: Subject: Re: Trickle Charge Battery Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 16:47:04 -0500 Although most posts have suggested what you are thinking of is a deep cycle marine battery or similar, you might consider using an SLA for your purpose. SLAs will probably be more expensive, per amp-hour, than a marine battery. However, most lead acid batteries are intended to be operated outdoors. SLAs are a lot more housebroken. With an ordinary lead-acid battery, you have two problems. The obvious one is leaking acid, which could be a real problem in the house. The other is outgassing hydrogen. Hydrogen is extremely easy to ignite, and if the concentration gets within the flammable range, it will almost certainly find an ignition source. Outdoors it is pretty tough (relatively) to get the concentration high enough to burn, but not so indoors. Hydrogen burns very quickly, so the result of a hydrogen fire, even in an open space, is often much like an explosion. The good news is that is has relatively little energy, so while it burns very hot, it tends to be over with very quickly, so it is (relatively) unlikely to ignite things around it. Still, I'm not the biggest fan of indoor explosions .. at least in my house. With SLAs, neither the hydrogen nor the acid gets out, so they are a little more friendly indoors. .. "west" wrote in message news:bOuff.7515$bx3.4400@tornado.tampabay.rr.com... >I know this question has probably been beaten to death, nevertheless I hope > you will still indulge me. > > During a power outage, which occurs frequently in Florida, I would like to > use a battery to power some communication gear. Although the battery is > 12v > and not 13.8v, I think that the gear will still work OK (hopefully). > > Question 1. I believe that car batteries have a low internal resistance > because their primary function is to provide a lot of current for a short > time. There are other 12v large battery types that will last as long as a > typical car battery. They are designed not to provide peak current, but to > supply steady state current for a long time. > For the life of me, I can't remember the name of those type batteries so I > can't do a google to find a supplier. I hope this is making some sense. > > Question 2. Where can I find articles & schematics for a solar cell to > provide a trickle charge for the aforementioned battery? > > Thank you very much. > > Cordially, > west > > Article: 95018 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "wa2mze(spamless)" <"wa2mze(spamless)"@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: choke input voltage doubler? References: <-oWdnRnFu6GVOePeRVn-qQ@adelphia.com> <-sudnS4NPMzb0OLeRVn-gw@adelphia.com> <87ydnd4TdaL94eLeRVn-qw@adelphia.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 20:28:00 -0500 John Popelish wrote: > Ken Scharf wrote: > >> John Popelish wrote: >> >>> Wes Stewart wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 23:06:03 -0500, John Popelish >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Ken Scharf wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I was looking at some power supply circuits for >>>>>> tube linears and was thinking about the full wave >>>>>> voltage doubler. This is basicly two half wave >>>>>> rectifiers in series. Now I could build this >>>>>> circuit with a choke input filter for each half >>>>>> wave rectifier of the voltage doubler, and I could >>>>>> put the chokes in the lead without the rectifier. >>>>>> In this case I could use one choke for both halfs >>>>>> of the voltage doubler. The output should then >>>>>> be about .9 * rms input voltage * 2 >>>>>> or 1.8 times the rms voltage of the transformer. >>>>>> >>>>>> Has anybody ever tried this? >>>>>> >>>>>> ------>|-------- >>>>>> ) | | >>>>>> ) | --- >>>>>> ) | --- >>>>>> )-----^^^^^^----| >>>>>> | | >>>>>> | --- >>>>>> | --- >>>>>> |--|<--------| >>>>>> >>>>>> Crude schematic showing transformer secondary >>>>>> diodes filter choke and capacitors. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If the choke is directly in series with the transformer, it will have >>>>> to pass AC, and that won't provide normal choke input filtering >>>>> (which steadies the DC current after the rectifier), but just puts an >>>>> impedance between the transformer and the doubler. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> All chokes are in series with the transformer and pass some AC >>>> component. If they only passed DC we would need them. >>> >>> >>> >>> I was using DC in the "unidirectional current" sense, not the "having no >>> AC components" sense. >>> >>> >>>> Without giving this too much (likely enought) thought I think this >>>> will fail because without loads across -each- filter cap, the critical >>>> inductance will not be obtained. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regardless of the loads across the caps, this inductor cannot ever >>> achieve critical inductance, since that is the inductance that keeps the >>> current reaching zero, each half cycle. In this circuit, the inductor >>> precedes the rectifiers, so its current must pass through zero twice per >>> cycle, regardless of the capacitor load. >>> >>> You could also put it in series with the primary, instead, and achieve >>> the same effect (with the proper scaling to account for the turns >>> ratio). >>> >>> >>>>> There may be a way to incorporate an inductor into a doubler, but I >>>>> don't think this is it. >>> >>> >>> >> Why you all may be right, what you are failing to see is that >> the choke is simply in the negative leg of the positive half >> wave rectifier, and in the positive leg of the negative half >> wave rectifier, and both rectifier outputs are in series. >> >> ------>|----- >> ) | >> ) --- >> ) --- >> ) | >> ---^^^^^^^---- >> >> This is a half wave rectifier with a choke input filter with the >> choke in the negative end. Will this work? > > > Not at all well, because you have provided no path for the inductor > current when the voltage from the transformer tires to reverse bias the > diode. So the inductor will keep the diode conducting as the voltage > reverses. This is not at all the way a choke input filter acts with a > full wave rectifier. I am quite sure you have never seen a choke input > filter in a half wave supply, for this reason. > I guess I can't recall seeing a half wave rectifier circuit using a choke input filter, but I thought that was because half wave circuits are usually used in low voltage circuits where a choke input filter would not have any advantage anyway. However in a full wave circuit how is there an alternate path? The center tapped transformer simply provides two ac excitations to two rectifiers 180 degress out of phase. This allows only one rectifier to conduct at a time. True, there is a more or less constant excitation to the choke, but there is NO reverse path as the diodes still only allow conduction in one direction. Either way the choke sees a DC current, not an AC one (minus the ripple, which a half sinewave imposed on a dc current). >> Now connect >> this circuit in series with negative output half wave and you >> notice you have two chokes in parallel. Yes you do need a >> bleeder resistor or minimal load to satisify the choke current >> requirement, I simply didn't draw this, the resting current >> of a class AB1 linear would satisfy that. >> >> Now what am I failing to see? > > > That there is a second current path through the inductor that involves > the other rectifier. So AC is applied to the inductor, instead of > unidirectional voltage. Article: 95019 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "wa2mze(spamless)" <"wa2mze(spamless)"@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: choke input voltage doubler? References: <1132421698.539800.219000@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 21:41:49 -0500 K7ITM wrote: > So, why do you want to use a choke-input filter in the first place? > AFAIK, they are most useful in giving you better output voltage > regulation under varying load than a capacitor input filter. They have > the added advantage that you can get more DC _power_ from a given > transformer by using a choke input filter, because although the output > voltage is lower, the RMS transformer winding current is lowered even > more. > > BUT--the voltage regulation advantage is lost if you try this with a > half-wave rectifier circuit, because you cannot maintain constant > enough current in the choke. To get the voltage regulation, the > current in the choke must not drop to zero at any time in the cycle, > and that's not going to happen while maintaining reasonable output > voltage in a half-wave circuit. (There's some limited help if you put > a "catch diode" to keep the voltage across the choke from swinging too > far negative, but that's not enough to get the advantage of the > full-wave circuit.) > > In addition, as John says, in the circuit as drawn, the choke is simply > in series with the transformer secondary, so you must reverse the > current in it between half-cycles to get conduction on both > half-cycles. It will not behave anything even close to the way that a > full-wave rectifier feeding a choke input filter will. > > Suggest you try a simple Spice (e.g. the free LTSpice from the Linear > Techonolgy website) simulation of this and the normal full-wave > circuit, and look at the huge differences. Note especially what > happens when you vary the DC load on the output. > > Cheers, > Tom > I think I understand what you are saying here, but even with a full wave rectifier doesn't the current through the choke drop to zero (though only for a brief instant) between the two phases of rectification when the diodes switch roles? And since there isn't a capacitor before the chokes the voltage at the input to the filter would drop to zero, unlike with a capacitor input filter. Also, with either type of rectifier (FW or HW) is shouldn't matter which leg the choke is placed in, as Kirkoff's law is satified either way. Article: 95020 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: hexter@blazenet.net (Gudmundur) Subject: Cleaning Tektronix TM500 series cam switches?? Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 03:53:05 -0000 Message-ID: <11nvsp1e3vmgb90@corp.supernews.com> Hi folks. Wondering if anyone here knows a good way to clean and restore life to the rotary cam finger switches like are used in Tek SC502, SG503 etc. I don't have any of the blue and the red CAIG fluid anymore but to anyone here who ever used it what do you think of the stuff?? I had two little bottles with a built it applicator brush and I thought the stuff worked great! My SG503 went bonkers and I used spray isopropyl alcohol and then a small shot of WD-40 on the contacts. Seems o.k. now. Article: 95021 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "John" Subject: Wtb: Hp-23 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 22:18:07 -0600 Message-ID: <11nvucreka4igbe@corp.supernews.com> I am looking for a heathkit hp-23 power supply , please let me know what you want for it. Thanks, John n5nme Article: 95022 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt) Subject: Re: Cleaning Tektronix TM500 series cam switches?? Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 04:44:12 -0000 Message-ID: <11nvvosk09t8403@corp.supernews.com> References: <11nvsp1e3vmgb90@corp.supernews.com> In article <11nvsp1e3vmgb90@corp.supernews.com>, Gudmundur wrote: > Hi folks. > > Wondering if anyone here knows a good way to clean and restore >life to the rotary cam finger switches like are used in Tek SC502, >SG503 etc. Some Tek components come with a warning not to use anything stronger or more persistent than high-grade isopropanol on their switches (e.g. the attenuator switches in the 4xx-series o-scopes). These switches incorporate materials which can be damaged by many organic solvents, or are used in high-impedance circuits in which small amounts of leakage current from contact-cleaner residue can mess up the behavior of the circuit. > I don't have any of the blue and the red CAIG fluid anymore but >to anyone here who ever used it what do you think of the stuff?? > I had two little bottles with a built it applicator brush and I >thought the stuff worked great! Agreed. Both the original (German) Cramolin products, and the DeOxIt formulations which Caig is selling these days, seem to work quite well for many of these sorts of problems. > My SG503 went bonkers and I used spray isopropyl alcohol and then >a small shot of WD-40 on the contacts. Seems o.k. now. Ugh. I would never recommend using WD-40 on electrical contacts in fine electronic equipment. It gets gummy with time, and attracts dust. It may make things better in the short run but I fear that if it's left in place it may cause further (worse) problems. I'd recommend flushing it out with another spray of isopropanol. If the switches do need lubing, check the Tek manuals for the proper procedure, if you can. Some of the modern contact-and-control lubricants are designed both for electrical stability, and to stay where they're put and not migrate around where they aren't wanted. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! Article: 95023 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Gene Rodgers" Subject: WANTED! Mostar Intrerface Box Message-ID: <4sVff.5408$BC2.1398@trnddc04> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 07:19:28 GMT I want to find a schematic for the Motorola Mostar Interface Box. I need a MIB to program my Mostars. Thanks, Gene ke5bfa Article: 95024 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Spike Subject: Re: FAQ - Interested? Start here! Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 09:28:13 +0000 Message-ID: <79g0o1l98vfs7d5fjs4pmfig0bb73isnet@4ax.com> References: <1132348647.448899.309210@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Polymath wrote: >Radio Hams >are qualified to design, build and then >operate their own pieces of equipment. However, [ ] In the UK, no repeat no licence of any kind is necessary to specify, design, construct, modify, repair, own, or (under some circumstances) test an Amateur transmitter. [ ] A pass in a current examination for a UK Amateur Licence qualifies the successful candidate for the issue of a UK Licence. Holders of the appropriate levels of licence are permitted to operate transmitting equipment that is not subject to a formal approvals procedure, and to carry out technical investigations. A qualification for a Licence, or the Licence itself, is not, repeat not, a qualification to specify, design, construct, modify, repair, or own transmitting equipment. from Aero Spike Article: 95025 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: budgie Subject: Re: Standard GX3000 HEX File Creation? Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 23:12:41 +0800 Message-ID: <4f41o1933aqc8965dn89bcvd433rhp0bh6@4ax.com> References: On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 18:16:08 -0330, "Bill" wrote: >Can anyone tell me how to create the HEX code for the 27C16 EPROM in the VHF >Standard GX3000 64CH radio, or can anyone tell me where to find software to >create the HEX file? I have an EPROM programmer that will program the 27C16 >EPROM, so I just need a way to create the file. I would pay for the >software or trade some of my radio manuals or radio software for it. Can one of you with this issue email me a BINARY taken from an eprom from a working GX3000, together with a list of the frequencies you generate from that eprom? Addie is fortyfour (as digits).at.westnet.com.au I'll see what I can do. Article: 95026 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: fmmck@aol.com (Fred McKenzie) Subject: Re: choke input voltage doubler? Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:16:58 -0500 Message-ID: References: <1132421698.539800.219000@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> In article , "wa2mze(spamless)" <"wa2mze(spamless)"@bellsouth.net> wrote: > I think I understand what you are saying here, but even with > a full wave rectifier doesn't the current through the choke drop > to zero (though only for a brief instant) between the two phases > of rectification when the diodes switch roles? And since there > isn't a capacitor before the chokes the voltage at the input > to the filter would drop to zero, unlike with a capacitor input > filter. > > Also, with either type of rectifier (FW or HW) is shouldn't matter > which leg the choke is placed in, as Kirkoff's law is satified > either way. Spamless- Yes, it wouldn't matter what leg the choke is in as long as it is on the output side of the rectifier (assuming full wave). For Half Wave, you must also consider the voltage across the choke. Voltage is L times di/dt where di/dt is very high at the moment the diode stops conducting. This is why a diode is often placed across a solenoid or relay coil, to prevent a high voltage pulse across the switching device. As a side-effect, relay drop-out is slow since current continues flowing as the magnetic field is discharged. With the relay analogy in mind, perhaps there could be some advantage if a diode were placed across the choke of a choke input filter fed with a half wave rectifier. It would be connected with cathode towards the cathode end of the rectifier, and would allow choke current to continue flowing during the off-portion of the rectifier's conduction cycle. 73, Fred, K4DII Article: 95027 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: fmmck@aol.com (Fred McKenzie) Subject: Re: Bridge Rectifier Info Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:42:42 -0500 Message-ID: References: In article , "Ron Price" wrote: > The equipment is an old Lab-Craft UHF Signal Strength Meter probably from > the 60's or 70's. > I have partly dismantled it and plan on using the chassis and psu to build a > one or two valve QRP CW TX for 80-m so I wanted a rough idea of what sort of > current I could pull from the rectifier. The previous valve line-up was > PC86, PC88, EF184(x2),6AL5,OA2. > I have an old data book and this lista a few rectifiers starting with FC but > not the one I want! Ron- If you plan to use the existing power supply, then the rectifier is most likely capable of handling as much current as the the transformer can deliver. If you don't want to trust it, one ampere silicon rectifier diodes are relatively inexpensive. Choose a set with reverse voltage greater than three times the transformer's RMS voltage (2.83 plus safety factor). I believe the OA2 is a 150 Volt gas voltage regulator tube. That would provide stability for the plate supply of your oscillator stage, or at least its screen voltage supply. The 6AL5 may be a dual-diode used as a meter rectifier. I'm not familiar with the others, but you should be able to obtain their rated filament currents to size the transformer's filament winding. 73, Fred, K4DII Article: 95028 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <4380C9DC.6A35CA81@spamaway.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 06:09:16 +1100 From: aaa@spamaway.com Subject: Re: A, An, or The FAQ References: <1130522688.763854.113650@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11m5aqjf77uufed@corp.supernews.com> Gudmundur wrote: > In article <1130522688.763854.113650@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, > aiyr.r.bean@lycos.co.uk says... > > > >What is Ham Radio? > > Do you have some point to prove here you ignorant bandwidth waster? > What kind of asswipe constantly posts the same dribble when in fact > newsgroup articles are archived? > > What is Polymath? > > He is a self important asshole who's self assumed duty is to educate > folks about that which he knows nothing but only quotes things he has > heard or read. No actual brain activity belongs to PolyDouche. > > Why do you constantly keep this up?? You prove you are to newsgroups > the very thing you hate most about others. > > Why waste the space on this newsgroup, and why waste the bandwidth??? > If you want something to play with stick your hands in your pocket and > play. You are the lowest form of life that exists. > > You Polymath are truely worthless, no one here learns from your constant > post of the same dribble and in fact no self respectable ham would act > in the way you do, proving you are among the most childish of the very > CB'ers you seem to hate. > > Suck me, blow us, or just blow away!! Fuck your useless posts!!! > Go talk politics with the WalMartians at your local WalMart. > > Do you have nothing better to do than post the same worthless note? > Are you that lonely and disfunctional? You don't even rate as high > on the evolutionary scale as the idiots of 3898khz. > > You have made a name for yourself indeed Polymath the biggest asshole > known to any newsgroup. > > Tell us of anything electronic or ham related that you ever built. Give > us something of value. You can't and you know it and it pisses you off > to look at such a worthless asshole in the mirror each and every morning > and the worst part is tomorrow isn't looking any better. > > Take your worthless post, print ten thousand copies and shove one up > your ass each morning while you contemplate your own suicide. If you > lack the methods and means to such an end I'll be the first in line to > by you a complete suicide do-it-yourself kit. > > Opinions expressed here are my own but reflected by the entire newgroup > and anyone else with 2 or more functioning brain cells. > > Piss off pal and take your idiotic plagerised post with you. Yes, bit of a bore isn't he? I'll put you down as "don't know..." Article: 95029 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <4380CA39.3BBBBDC9@spamaway.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 06:10:50 +1100 From: aaa@spamaway.com Subject: Re: A, An, or The FAQ References: <1130522688.763854.113650@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Polymath wrote: > You would seem to be one of the Childish Broadcasters (CBers) > warned against in the article. Ah! The usual. Is that what the regulars want to be like? Article: 95030 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <4380CADC.FC511408@spamaway.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 06:13:32 +1100 From: aaa@spamaway.com Subject: Re: A, An, or The FAQ References: <1130522688.763854.113650@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Polymath wrote: > In addition, if you disagree with what I post, and do > not wish to see it.... > If you have a reasonable - and reasoned - response as > to what you think Ham Rad... Just a pointer, Polymath. The term "ham" radio is not endearing to the vast majority of this ng. Article: 95031 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 19:11:48 -0400 From: Bill Subject: Re: Wtb: Hp-23 References: <11nvucreka4igbe@corp.supernews.com> <1132525195.779480.238530@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: hhc314@yahoo.com wrote: > John, are you sure it's an HP-23, and not an IP-23? Is this one of > their high voltage power supplies or a low voltage model. HP-23 is the one that goes with the radio.amateur gear. -Bill Article: 95032 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <43810845.F6A6E404@spamaway.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:35:33 +1100 From: aaa@spamaway.com Subject: Re: The FAQ - because no-one has an alternative one. References: <1131116439.255278.104600@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Polymathprssed a button and reproduced yet again... > What is Ham Radio? (the rest snipped in the interests of sanity) Lots of truth there but lots of rubbish too. Article: 95033 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <438108E9.93C694FA@spamaway.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:38:17 +1100 From: aaa@spamaway.com Subject: Re: The FAQ - because no-one has an alternative one. References: <1131116439.255278.104600@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Polymath wrote: > Andre Craddock, M0SWB, proves that he continues to > be an INCURABLE CBER through the medium of his > Childish Broadcast (CB)..... > > Infantile and abusive......is there any difference between an M0 > callsign and one of those issued under the gangrenous degeneration > that is the M3/CB Fools' Licence scheme? Seemingly not. I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that he doesn't like CBers. What happened to the bit of real amateur spirit about being tolerant and helping a new amateur to improve, and showing him by example? It doesn't really show up in Polymath's postings Article: 95034 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <43810961.87D30069@spamaway.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:40:17 +1100 From: aaa@spamaway.com Subject: Re: The FAQ - because no-one has an alternative one. References: <1131116439.255278.104600@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9jbnm1tne70t07vanlm9gdcm0i5hgq732d@4ax.com> Frank Gilliland wrote: > On 4 Nov 2005 07:00:39 -0800, "Polymath" > wrote in <1131116439.255278.104600@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: > > >What is Ham Radio? > > Do you mean the Amateur Radio Service? > > >Ham Radio > > Amateur radio..... I agree. Article: 95035 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Ralph Mowery" References: Subject: Re: SLA charging question. Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 02:02:27 GMT "J Shrum" wrote in message news:n_-dnTsa8NUIvxzeRVn-hA@madisontelco.com... > Hey guys... I've spent lots of time looking over google archives for the > answer to this, and God knows this has been covered many times, but I've not > quite found my answer. > > I have the following QRP power supply/charger > http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-4114 . > Basically it comes standard to charge a 12 nicads, but I took out the nicad > holders and put in a 12v 5AH gel cell. I modified it to charge directly from > the 13.8v power supply instead of the 18v nicad charger circuit. I charged > the battery to about 13.8v (w/ no load) by floating. If I measure the > battery while having my radio on receive, which only draws maybe 80mA's or > so, I see the battery dropping by .10's of a V in no time. The battery is > brand new. > I've noticed that the battery only draws about 30mA's while charging at any > voltage. I even added a switch so I can switch extra diodes between the > regulator ground so I can charge it at 14.X volts. > > So my question... If it measures 13.8-14v after charging, it should be fully > charged, right? Is there something going on since it is only drawing 10's of > milliamps while charging? I've read that they charge at several hundred > milli's. I'd like to use my QRP rig remotely, and at the rate its dropping, > I just don't think it will serve the purpose. > > Thanks for all the help. > > Jim, AB9LM > It takes more voltage to charge a battery than what it is rated at. That is the reason for an 18 volt charger voltage instead of 14 volts. Article: 95036 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: budgie Subject: Re: SLA charging question. Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:17:48 +0800 Message-ID: References: On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 19:27:49 -0600, "J Shrum" wrote: >Hey guys... I've spent lots of time looking over google archives for the >answer to this, and God knows this has been covered many times, but I've not >quite found my answer. > >I have the following QRP power supply/charger >http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-4114 . >Basically it comes standard to charge a 12 nicads, but I took out the nicad >holders and put in a 12v 5AH gel cell. I modified it to charge directly from >the 13.8v power supply instead of the 18v nicad charger circuit. I charged >the battery to about 13.8v (w/ no load) by floating. If I measure the >battery while having my radio on receive, which only draws maybe 80mA's or >so, I see the battery dropping by .10's of a V in no time. The battery is >brand new. >I've noticed that the battery only draws about 30mA's while charging at any >voltage. I even added a switch so I can switch extra diodes between the >regulator ground so I can charge it at 14.X volts. > >So my question... If it measures 13.8-14v after charging, it should be fully >charged, right? Is there something going on since it is only drawing 10's of >milliamps while charging? I've read that they charge at several hundred >milli's. I'd like to use my QRP rig remotely, and at the rate its dropping, >I just don't think it will serve the purpose. Just float charging at 13v8 isn't going to do a great lot for an SLA. Download and read the following two docs from TI/Unitrode which will give you a fair insight into the proper care and feeding of SLA's. http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slua115/slua115.pdf http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/uc3906.pdf There's a lot of overlap, but good info, and that chip makes a fairly simple yet elegant charger. Article: 95037 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Ed Huntress" References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes Message-ID: <6Wcgf.78792$rE2.19809@fe10.lga> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 00:26:22 -0500 "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message news:1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > I am the "lucky" owner of a number of older UPSes. > > So what can a person build out of these? > > The batteries are for the most part dead but the remainder of the > components seem to be in good condition. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks > > TMT If you can get your hands on a copy of the 2005 ARRL Handbook, there are several suggestions in there (radio-related, but you can improvise from them), and some information about UPS's. One is a charger for 12V storage batteries in general, including car batteries. Another is an emergency power supply (you can just run two wires to your car battery, or a bank of deep-discharge batteries wired in parallel if you're so inclined). Depending on the model you have, you can get 160 W to over 300 W of 120 VAC and/or 12VDC from them. Mine (an APC Back-UPS 600) is now wired to an old car battery. It will run my computer for a lot longer than the old gel-cell that came with it. Since we're on the end of a power transmission line, it gets a fair amount of use. -- Ed Huntress Article: 95038 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <438169F4.1CD38524@spamaway.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:32:20 +1100 From: aaa@spamaway.com Subject: Re: A, An, or The FAQ References: <1130522688.763854.113650@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11m5aqjf77uufed@corp.supernews.com> <4380C9DC.6A35CA81@spamaway.com> Highland Ham wrote: > >> What is Polymath? > >> You have made a name for yourself indeed Polymath the biggest asshole > >> known to any newsgroup. > > Yes, bit of a bore isn't he? I'll put you down as "don't know..." > ================================= > Polymath or Airy Bean ,whatever he calls himself is Gareth A. Evans , > G4SDW > He is a nuissance > Any reaction on his weekly outpour seems to encourage him . It is best to > ignore him . Oh, I see... One of those new fangled G4s. That explains it all... Article: 95039 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Mark Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 22:44:18 -0800 Message-ID: <43816CC2.9020304@helix.net> References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <6Wcgf.78792$rE2.19809@fe10.lga> I have a back-UPS 400 with a useless gelcell. However, touching terminals of a fully charged and healthy gelcell to the battery leads causes mega amps to flow, so something is likely fried. Interestingly, the dead battery has about 10.5 volts on it, in-circuit, no current! Anyone got a schematic or wisdom to share? / thanks / mark Ed Huntress wrote: > "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message > news:1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > >>I am the "lucky" owner of a number of older UPSes. >> >>So what can a person build out of these? >> >>The batteries are for the most part dead but the remainder of the >>components seem to be in good condition. >> >>Any suggestions? >> >>Thanks >> >>TMT > > > If you can get your hands on a copy of the 2005 ARRL Handbook, there are > several suggestions in there (radio-related, but you can improvise from > them), and some information about UPS's. > > One is a charger for 12V storage batteries in general, including car > batteries. Another is an emergency power supply (you can just run two wires > to your car battery, or a bank of deep-discharge batteries wired in parallel > if you're so inclined). Depending on the model you have, you can get 160 W > to over 300 W of 120 VAC and/or 12VDC from them. > > Mine (an APC Back-UPS 600) is now wired to an old car battery. It will run > my computer for a lot longer than the old gel-cell that came with it. Since > we're on the end of a power transmission line, it gets a fair amount of use. > > -- > Ed Huntress > > Article: 95040 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <43816EC8.6B4141E6@spamaway.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:52:56 +1100 From: aaa@spamaway.com Subject: Re: FAQ, just what is Ham Radio? References: <1131719903.005850.10610@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Polymath wrote: > What is Ham Radio? > ... Blimey! I can't believe he's at it again! Article: 95041 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Vaughn" References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:34:05 GMT "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message news:1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... Too_Many_Crossposts Article: 95042 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Ignoramus14135 Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:15:03 GMT On 20 Nov 2005 21:14:33 -0800, Too_Many_Tools wrote: > I am the "lucky" owner of a number of older UPSes. > > So what can a person build out of these? > > The batteries are for the most part dead but the remainder of the > components seem to be in good condition. > > Any suggestions? What UPSes? I made about $2500 on a lot of 28 1400 VA APC UPses. Swapped in batteries for new ones and sold them on ebay. Left a few beaten up ones to power up all computers and electronics in my house. The truly big UPSes are a gold mine of components. i Article: 95043 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "John, N9JG" References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <6Wcgf.78792$rE2.19809@fe10.lga> Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:10:08 GMT Do you have to worry about fumes from the car battery, or do you only use the "sealed" type of car battery? "Ed Huntress" wrote in message news:6Wcgf.78792$rE2.19809@fe10.lga... > "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message > news:1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > If you can get your hands on a copy of the 2005 ARRL Handbook, there are > several suggestions in there (radio-related, but you can improvise from > them), and some information about UPS's. > > One is a charger for 12V storage batteries in general, including car > batteries. Another is an emergency power supply (you can just run two > wires > to your car battery, or a bank of deep-discharge batteries wired in > parallel > if you're so inclined). Depending on the model you have, you can get 160 W > to over 300 W of 120 VAC and/or 12VDC from them. > > Mine (an APC Back-UPS 600) is now wired to an old car battery. It will run > my computer for a lot longer than the old gel-cell that came with it. > Since > we're on the end of a power transmission line, it gets a fair amount of > use. Article: 95044 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Al Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:32:06 GMT In article <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Too_Many_Tools" wrote: > I am the "lucky" owner of a number of older UPSes. > > So what can a person build out of these? > > The batteries are for the most part dead but the remainder of the > components seem to be in good condition. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks > > TMT > I replace the batteries. I get them at the MIT flea market, two for 10 bucks. Yes, and they have a test load there so you can verify the batteries are good. I have had not problem. I have several free UPSs because clueless people have thrown them out at our recycling center as they are "bad." Al Article: 95045 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <4381D182.E4E69A5A@snet.net> From: "Pete C." Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:54:10 GMT Al wrote: > > In article <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, > "Too_Many_Tools" wrote: > > > I am the "lucky" owner of a number of older UPSes. > > > > So what can a person build out of these? > > > > The batteries are for the most part dead but the remainder of the > > components seem to be in good condition. > > > > Any suggestions? > > > > Thanks > > > > TMT > > > > I replace the batteries. I get them at the MIT flea market, two for 10 > bucks. Yes, and they have a test load there so you can verify the > batteries are good. I have had not problem. > > I have several free UPSs because clueless people have thrown them out at > our recycling center as they are "bad." > > Al Generally you can get new batteries from a local battery distributor at very good prices and with local pickup no shipping costs. I used to use Midstate Battery in Bloomfield, CT but there will be wholesale distributors everywhere. With new batteries most UPSs will be good as new. Keep what you can use and sell the rest locally, donate a few to the local senior center for a tax write off (yes seniors use computers these days), etc. Pete C. Article: 95046 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Jim Higgins Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes Message-ID: References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <6Wcgf.78792$rE2.19809@fe10.lga> <43816CC2.9020304@helix.net> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:20:39 GMT On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 22:44:18 -0800, Mark wrote: >I have a back-UPS 400 with a useless gelcell. However, touching >terminals of a fully charged and healthy gelcell to the battery >leads causes mega amps to flow, so something is likely fried. >Interestingly, the dead battery has about 10.5 volts on it, >in-circuit, no current! > >Anyone got a schematic or wisdom to share? / thanks / mark Your dead battery has a shorted cell. When you connect that healthy battery in parallel with the dead one the good one tries to charge the bad one and since both have low internal resistance a heavy current flows. Remove the dead battery and check out the UPS with the good battery connected to be sure it will charge the battery properly. If so, you're good to go. Article: 95047 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Tom Gardner" References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:23:03 GMT "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message news:1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >I am the "lucky" owner of a number of older UPSes. > > So what can a person build out of these? > > The batteries are for the most part dead but the remainder of the > components seem to be in good condition. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks > > TMT > Time Machine! Article: 95048 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Gunner Asch Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes Message-ID: References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:02:14 GMT On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:23:03 GMT, "Tom Gardner" wrote: > >"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message >news:1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >>I am the "lucky" owner of a number of older UPSes. >> >> So what can a person build out of these? >> >> The batteries are for the most part dead but the remainder of the >> components seem to be in good condition. >> >> Any suggestions? >> >> Thanks >> >> TMT >> > >Time Machine! > For that..you need a British phone both IRRC. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner Article: 95049 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Tom Gardner" References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:30:54 GMT ">> > For that..you need a British phone both IRRC. > > Gunner > I need a new battery for my Tardis! Article: 95050 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <43822356.4A1E3D17@snet.net> From: "Pete C." Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 19:43:20 GMT Tom Gardner wrote: > > ">> > > For that..you need a British phone both IRRC. > > > > Gunner > > > > I need a new battery for my Tardis! Borrow one from K-9... Pete C. Article: 95051 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Steve Nosko" Subject: Re: Trickle Charge Battery Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:13:06 -0600 Message-ID: References: Looks like you have some good info from others. Here's a little more. What you will be doing is not "trickle" charging, but it is called "float" charging. Lead acid chemistry, similar to Li-ion (unlike ni-Cd & Ni-Mh) has the characteristic that it has a voltage charactistic such that the terminal voltage rises between dead and full charge. You can safely put a constant voltage (but also with a current limit) on the battery and it will seek its own full charge and the current will taper off, when it gets enough, to what it needs to stay at full charge. CAUTION -- This voltage is typically around 13.8, HOWEVER you MUST consult the manufacturer's specs. This voltage also changes slightly as the temperature of the battery changes. A commercial device designed for this service is recommended. 73, Steve, K,9.D;C'I "west" wrote in message news:bOuff.7515$bx3.4400@tornado.tampabay.rr.com... > I know this question has probably been beaten to death, nevertheless I hope > you will still indulge me. > > During a power outage, which occurs frequently in Florida, I would like to > use a battery to power some communication gear. Although the battery is 12v > and not 13.8v, I think that the gear will still work OK (hopefully). > > Question 1. I believe that car batteries have a low internal resistance > because their primary function is to provide a lot of current for a short > time. There are other 12v large battery types that will last as long as a > typical car battery. They are designed not to provide peak current, but to > supply steady state current for a long time. > For the life of me, I can't remember the name of those type batteries so I > can't do a google to find a supplier. I hope this is making some sense. > > Question 2. Where can I find articles & schematics for a solar cell to > provide a trickle charge for the aforementioned battery? > > Thank you very much. > > Cordially, > west > > Article: 95052 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Mark Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:06:07 -0800 Message-ID: <11o4hbnfbdvbe13@corp.supernews.com> References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <6Wcgf.78792$rE2.19809@fe10.lga> <43816CC2.9020304@helix.net> Um, I didn't make myself clear, I guess - I took the old one out, clipped to the new one, instant heat. Big heat. I'm guessing that there's circuitry which avoids draining the (bad) low voltage one past a certain point. I'm also guessing that a fully charged battery (the one I tried to hook up) enables current flow, and that perhaps the input of the invertor section is shorted. I didn't feel like leaving a perfectly good 17A-hour battery to fry itself and the surrounding wires etc..... BUt thanks for the response / mark Joseph Gwinn wrote: > In article <43816CC2.9020304@helix.net>, Mark > wrote: > > >>I have a back-UPS 400 with a useless gelcell. However, touching >>terminals of a fully charged and healthy gelcell to the battery >>leads causes mega amps to flow, so something is likely fried. >>Interestingly, the dead battery has about 10.5 volts on it, >>in-circuit, no current! > > > This is the classic symptom of a 12-volt lead-acid battery with one cell > shorted. Hooking a 12-volt battery to a 10-volt battery will draw lots > of current, as observed. Replace the old gelcell battery with the new > one; do not keep the old gelcell in the circuit. > > Joe Gwinn Article: 95053 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Steve Nosko" Subject: Re: choke input voltage doubler? Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:06:17 -0600 Message-ID: References: Some real brain fodder here. John P. Your Spice model with the coupled inductors seems to take a divergent turn and I am not sure about this "coupled" part. Did you try a single inductor. On to my original thoughts. This really takes me back and requires serious thought. One thing to keep in mind. An inductor (by virtue of the magnetic field cutting its own turns) tries to keep whatever current is flowing, flowing. An inductor will make the voltage across it "do whatever it takes" to keep that current flowing-- and allow this current to decay (some say discharge) in what can be considered a normal manner. The diode on the relay coil is a good example. The voltage can rise very high without the diode, but using this model, you can figure out what the inductor voltage does when the normally conducting device turns off. That said... I had never studied choke input filters to such a degree... However, its action must allow the filter cap to charge for a longer time, thus keeping the average diode current lower... Does the current through the inductor drop to zero in the normal choke input filter? If not, a close look at the current path in the full-wave circuit will show where the current goes at the cross-over points. Brain full - can't figure out now. I'd have to model it in Spice and watch things Very interesting thingh. If the current does drop to zero, then it seems the single choke would work. Then, reading some of the latter posts, I too, wonder why the desire for choke input. 73, Steve, K,9;D.C'I John Popelish" wrote in message news:gKWdnbGpC5HnF-LenZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@adelphia.com... > Fred McKenzie wrote: > > In article , Ken Scharf > > wrote: > > > > > >>I was looking at some power supply circuits for > >>tube linears and was thinking about the full wave > >>voltage doubler. This is basicly two half wave > >>rectifiers in series. Now I could build this > >>circuit with a choke input filter for each half > >>wave rectifier of the voltage doubler, and I could > >>put the chokes in the lead without the rectifier. > >>In this case I could use one choke for both halfs > >>of the voltage doubler. > > > > > > Ken- > > > > This doesn't make sense to me. My recollection of the choke-input filter, > > is that it can only be used following a full-wave rectifier. You are > > suggesting they be used prior to the rectifier, which is not where a > > "filter" is normally placed. Instead, the choke would act as a series > > impedance to the AC source. > > > > It seems to me that you can't separate the capacitors from the rectifiers, > > or you wouldn't have doubler action. Therefore, capacitor-input is the > > only filtering that makes sense for this circuit. Of course you might use > > the choke in a Pi configuration between the output and another filter > > capacitor. > > > > If you have any success with this approach, it will be from extra voltage > > generated by the choke's collapsing magnetic field. This is similar to > > how switching regulators work, but without any active regulation. > > > > 73, Fred, K4DII > > I played around with choke input filtering for this circuit with Spice > and got "continuous inductor current" if I used two highly coupled > inductors, one after each rectifier, and another pair of diodes from > the input side of the chokes to the capacitor common point. However, > this "continuous current" switches back and forth between the two > coupled inductors on alternating half cycles so each end of the > capacitor pair sees current as a half cycle approximately square wave > pulse. So each capacitor charges and discharges with a quite > triangular voltage ripple. But the sum of the two capacitor voltages > is a very pure DC, compared to the no choke version, since the ripples > cancel quite well. However, this reduces the output voltage to only > half of the no choke version, so you might as well have made a full > wave supply, instead of a doubler configuration. Article: 95054 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Steve Nosko" Subject: Re: SLA charging question. Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:26:33 -0600 Message-ID: References: Not sure who the OP is here... I gave some relevant info in another thread (Below), but here's some additional info. The lead acid chemistry's voltage goes from just under 12 volts at dead, to just over 12 V at full charge (Don't remember the exact, but the idea holds). HOWEVER, this is ONLY after "RESTING" for some time. I never found out (or perhaps remembered) what this resting time is, but think it is perhaps half to one hour. Float voltage is around 13.8 (I have some Yuasa SLAs and they say give a range of around 13.7-13.9 for float). At the float voltage, they will "take what they need" to stay charged, but that is NOT the terminal voltage after resting, or when delivering current. This is what I say above. In addition to the constant voltage float, you MUST also limit the current to some maximum (specified my the mfr) when a dead battery is first put on the charger. With a high current 13.8 supply, you can damage (explode, or whatever) the battery with too much current at this time. Once the battery gets up to the 13.8 float voltage, the current will begin to drop and the constant current part of the charger will fall out of use and you have a constant voltage, where the battery top itself off thing going on. Steve ============================================================================ = previous post Looks like you have some good info from others. Here's a little more. What you will be doing is not "trickle" charging, but it is called "float" charging. Lead acid chemistry, similar to Li-ion (unlike in-Cd & Ni-Mh) has the characteristic that it has a voltage chrematistic such that the terminal voltage rises between dead and full charge. You can safely put a constant voltage (but also with a current limit) on the battery and it will seek its own full charge and the current will taper off, when it gets enough, to what it needs to stay at full charge. CAUTION -- This voltage is typically around 13.8, HOWEVER you MUST consult the manufacturer's specs. This voltage also changes slightly as the temperature of the battery changes. A commercial device designed for this service is recommended. 73, Steve, K,9.D;C'I "Highland Ham" wrote in message news:E--dnf0OoZNBRhzenZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@pipex.net... > These SLA =Sealed Lead Acid batteries usually have a charging rate for 2 > types of usage The YUASA battery I have in front of me has the following > instructions (applicable at 20 degrees Celcius ) : > Standby Use : Voltage regulation 13.50 -13.80 V Initial current : > No Limit > Cyclic Use : voltage regulation 14.4 - 15.00 V Initial current: > 1.75 Amperes max. > > I also use a number of SLAs without such instructions , which I (safely) > charge at 0.1 C (for example a 7Ah battery is charged at 700 mA ) and > limiting the Voltage to 13.5 V ,bearing in mind that 12 V lead acid > batteries are still 70 -80 % charged when voltage has dropped to 12.6 V > To test (charged )12 V lead acid batteries I discharge them at a constant > 0.1C current and check the time until the voltage has dropped to 11.9 V > (at that voltage the battery might not as yet be fully discharged ,but below > that voltage they are of no use to me ) > > Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH > > +++++++++++++++++++++++ > > So my question... If it measures 13.8-14v after charging, it should be > > fully charged, right? Is there something going on since it is only drawing > > 10's of milliamps while charging? I've read that they charge at several > > hundred milli's. I'd like to use my QRP rig remotely, and at the rate its > > dropping, I just don't think it will serve the purpose. > > Article: 95055 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: choke input voltage doubler? Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:28:19 -0800 Message-ID: <11o4m0jmnkg5nca@corp.supernews.com> References: Steve Nosko wrote: > . . . > That said... I had never studied choke input filters to such a degree... > However, its action must allow the filter cap to charge for a longer time, > thus keeping the average diode current lower... > Does the current through the inductor drop to zero in the normal choke input > filter? > If not, a close look at the current path in the full-wave circuit will show > where the current goes at the cross-over points. Brain full - can't figure > out now. I'd have to model it in Spice and watch things > > Very interesting thingh. If the current does drop to zero, then it seems > the single choke would work. > . . . In a properly designed choke input filter, the choke current never drops to zero. If it does, the circuit becomes the equivalent of a capacitor input filter, with the capacitor furnishing the load current and the voltage increasing as the whole thing acts more like a peak detector rather than an averager. This means that a common choke input filter requires a minimum load current if it's to always behave like a choke input filter. Quite a few switching supply topologies also include an inductor. In the ones I've designed, diodes are used to provide a path for inductor current between input pulses. Diode reverse recovery time becomes important as the switching frequency increases, since it dictates how quickly the diode can turn off once the voltage across it reverses. It's often possible to design a regulator which will tolerate the inductor current going to zero. But it requires special care because the relationship between input pulse width and output voltage becomes very different(*) and it can be tricky to make the regulation control loop operate stably and correctly under the two very different conditions. (*) While inductor current is present it behaves like a choke input filter, the output voltage being essentially the average of the pulsed input voltage and so easily controlled via the duty cycle of the input. If the inductor runs dry, the output voltage becomes relatively independent of the input duty cycle -- it becomes the peak value of the input during the input peaks, and sagging between peaks according to how much current is being drawn from the capacitor. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 95056 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Henry Kiefer" Subject: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:13:42 +0100 Message-ID: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Hi all - I'm not new to electronics but to vhf comm. I want to build small circuits: LNA, power amp to 10 watts, etc. At the moment between 10MegHz and 150MegHz. What are the standard parts, cheap but effective, preferable with spice model availability (I'm doing much with LTspice)? Transistors, ICs, coil-suppliers, suppliers in general for small quantities Please no triodes etc. I like more SMD ;-) Lists somewhere in the net? Japanese parts? I think such lists will be of interest to others too! Thank you!! Best regards - Henry Article: 95057 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <438266E4.684B49B5@spamaway.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:31:32 +1100 From: aaa@spamaway.com Subject: Re: The FAQ - because no-one has an alternative one. References: <1131116439.255278.104600@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> an old friend wrote: > it [gentlemanly attitude] seems long dead in mst corners of Ham radio Well, time to bring it back to *amateur* radio (apols if you're a Yank). We could start here... Article: 95058 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "RST Engineering \(jw\)" Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:40:40 -0800 Message-ID: <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> You are going to use Spice to model an RF circuit. DId I get that right? Jim "Henry Kiefer" wrote in message news:438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net... > Hi all - > > I'm not new to electronics but to vhf comm. I want to build small > circuits: > LNA, power amp to 10 watts, etc. At the moment between 10MegHz and > 150MegHz. > > What are the standard parts, cheap but effective, preferable with spice > model availability (I'm doing much with LTspice)? > Transistors, ICs, coil-suppliers, suppliers in general for small > quantities Article: 95059 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Henry Kiefer" References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:57:08 +0100 Message-ID: <43826cd2$0$27883$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Yes Jim! Im not very experienced there (Digital designs/layout is my profession) - but for example I designed a LNA and got simulations results (even for noise performance) very similar to a real circuit built from a ham with great background (found later on the net). Even a Synchronous Oscillator for 145MegHz seem to work with LTspice. I work on it today trying to modify it to an fsk modulated power oscillator to keep component count to the lowest. Why you ask? - Henry "RST Engineering (jw)" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com... > You are going to use Spice to model an RF circuit. DId I get that right? > > Jim > > > > "Henry Kiefer" wrote in message > news:438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net... > > Hi all - > > > > I'm not new to electronics but to vhf comm. I want to build small > > circuits: > > LNA, power amp to 10 watts, etc. At the moment between 10MegHz and > > 150MegHz. > > > > What are the standard parts, cheap but effective, preferable with spice > > model availability (I'm doing much with LTspice)? > > Transistors, ICs, coil-suppliers, suppliers in general for small > > quantities > > Article: 95060 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Gary S. Subject: Re: Powerpole 180A Connectors Message-ID: References: <6mbng1199dj1p6ji91rf198rrnh99jrr00@4ax.com> <9hnpg15mc8el1keek6gfnbkvbu2in37bgs@4ax.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:39:16 GMT On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 06:53:25 -0500, "gb" wrote: >"Richard W. Solomon, W1KSZ" wrote in message >news:9hnpg15mc8el1keek6gfnbkvbu2in37bgs@4ax.com... >> No, they are the SINGLEPOLE Connectors. >> >> http://www.andersonpower.com/products/pp/sp.html >> >> 73, Dick, W1KSZ >> >Powerx sells the entire line - give them a call or send an e-mail to their >sales department. >Powerwerz web page >http://www.powerwerx.com > Double check the Powerwerx site, as I seem to remember them having larger than 75, maybe only 150. Just checked. See: where they have up to 350 Amp ones. If that's At some hamfests, there are dealers who have used ones from electric forklifts and other industrial equipment. Good prices, although you may not be able to reuse the contacts. Contacts for that size will require a major league crimper (pneumatic or hydraulic). More practical would be a large soldering iron. As an aside, when you get to the larger wire sizes like 1/0 or 2/0 (pronounced one aught or two aught) you would want welding cable. Welding cable has the same cross sectional area of copper as regular wire, but has a larger number of finer strands, which allows the whole thing to bend. Regular wire in that size often needs a large tubing or conduit bender to shape it. If you need more than 350 Amp carrying capacity. . . Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear) -- At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom Article: 95061 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Ignoramus14135 Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <43822356.4A1E3D17@snet.net> <-vOdnTG5yJoo9h_eRVn-pg@comcast.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:46:50 GMT On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:52:01 -0600, RDF wrote: > Would a 12 V deep cycle- Optima work in a APC-UPS 1400R I keep my servers > and dyno on with it along with some routers and switches. I don't know the > output, the battery fails and I now have it frightfully bypassed. The > batteries died and are almost 2 bills to replace. voltages ? issues? but I > have a few Optima batteries from wrecked race cars that would be perfect! My guess is probably not. 1. The APC 1400 VA UPSes that I refurbished had 24V battery pairs and not 12v batteries. However, that objection could be overcome if you use two batteries in sequence (but read on). 2. The charging current of the tiny native 1400va ups batteries is probably much less than that of the car batteries. Higher current coulld damage the charging circuit of the UPS. You could make some current limiter (see Art of Electronics) to limit charging current, but it probably is not worth the time. Two batteries for a 1400 VA ups should cost about $35, someone is selling them from a warehouse west of chicago. I bought a pallet of them at some point. i > Any input would be appreciated, > Rob > > > Fraser Competition Engines > Chicago, IL. > "Pete C." wrote in message > news:43822356.4A1E3D17@snet.net... >> Tom Gardner wrote: >>> >>> ">> >>> > For that..you need a British phone both IRRC. >>> > >>> > Gunner >>> > >>> >>> I need a new battery for my Tardis! >> >> Borrow one from K-9... >> >> Pete C. > > -- Article: 95062 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <43827A84.B4C3DDAE@snet.net> From: "Pete C." Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <43822356.4A1E3D17@snet.net> <-vOdnTG5yJoo9h_eRVn-pg@comcast.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:55:17 GMT RDF wrote: > > Would a 12 V deep cycle- Optima work in a APC-UPS 1400R I keep my servers > and dyno on with it along with some routers and switches. I don't know the > output, the battery fails and I now have it frightfully bypassed. The > batteries died and are almost 2 bills to replace. voltages ? issues? but I > have a few Optima batteries from wrecked race cars that would be perfect! > > Any input would be appreciated, > Rob > > Fraser Competition Engines > Chicago, IL. Unlikely, but while the replacement batteries may be, as you say 2 bills, from APC, if you take the old ones to a proper wholesale battery distributor they will in all probability be able to sell you proper replacements for about $20-$25 ea. Pete C. Article: 95063 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Bruce L. Bergman Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes Message-ID: References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <43822356.4A1E3D17@snet.net> <-vOdnTG5yJoo9h_eRVn-pg@comcast.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 02:48:10 GMT On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:52:01 -0600, "RDF" wrote: >Would a 12 V deep cycle- Optima work in a APC-UPS 1400R I keep my servers >and dyno on with it along with some routers and switches. I don't know the >output, the battery fails and I now have it frightfully bypassed. The >batteries died and are almost 2 bills to replace. voltages ? issues? but I >have a few Optima batteries from wrecked race cars that would be perfect! If they are 'Red Top' starting batteries, not really. Starting duty batteries aren't meant to be deep discharged, even if the Optima starved electrolyte design will take the abuse far better than most because electrolyte volume is restricted. If they're the Yellow Top deep-cycle, or the Blue Top Marine starting/deep cycle, and the voltages are right, yes. But realize it might work TOO well when compared with a standard gel-cell battery. Those Optima batteries can deliver frightening amounts of short-circuit current for several seconds and the circuit can fry before a fuse can react. --<< Bruce >>-- -- Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545 Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. Article: 95064 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Russ Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes Message-ID: References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 03:45:11 GMT On 20 Nov 2005 21:14:33 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools" wrote: >I am the "lucky" owner of a number of older UPSes. > >So what can a person build out of these? > >The batteries are for the most part dead but the remainder of the >components seem to be in good condition. > >Any suggestions? > >Thanks > >TMT Sure! I have a few of them. I usually get them for free because they are "broken". I replace the batteries and they are as good as new. I have even gotten a hold of an expensive "sine wave" UPS. Most UPSs use a sum of square waves to simulate the 60Hz sine wave. There are lots of transients and noise, however. Some (expensive) UPSs use a different type of inverter and produce pure sine wave AC. If you put an accessory plug in the side, you can use it to keep the batteries topped off and plug into the accessory plug for volts. Be careful though, the better ones use 2 12V batteries in series. Russ Article: 95065 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: John Larkin Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 19:59:32 -0800 Message-ID: References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:40:40 -0800, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" wrote: >You are going to use Spice to model an RF circuit. DId I get that right? > >Jim > > Why not? John Article: 95066 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Bob Headrick" Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:53:33 -0800 Message-ID: <11o592i478r2dc2@corp.supernews.com> References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> "Russ" wrote in message news:tk7tn1lhmubet4oaikpue7p5are69nbshl@4ax.com... > Sure! I have a few of them. I usually get them for free because they > are "broken". I replace the batteries and they are as good as new. I > have even gotten a hold of an expensive "sine wave" UPS. Most UPSs > use a sum of square waves to simulate the 60Hz sine wave. There are > lots of transients and noise, however. Some (expensive) UPSs use a > different type of inverter and produce pure sine wave AC. If you put > an accessory plug in the side, you can use it to keep the batteries > topped off and plug into the accessory plug for volts. Be careful > though, the better ones use 2 12V batteries in series. You need to be very careful with this - I have seen units that have one side of line voltage on the battery terminals. This is not a problem with the batteries sealed in the UPS, but could be a big problem if you try to bring leads out to charge a battery. I have about 25 UPS' I picked up at a local university sale for $30 total. The largest was a 2KW unit with 18 12V batteries, one of which was dead :-). Metalworking content - after replacing the one bad battery I tested it using my bandsaw.... - Bob Headrick Article: 95067 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Ignoramus14135 Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11o592i478r2dc2@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: <0Fxgf.546$x56.371@fe16.usenetserver.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 05:03:56 GMT On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:53:33 -0800, Bob Headrick wrote: > > "Russ" wrote in message > news:tk7tn1lhmubet4oaikpue7p5are69nbshl@4ax.com... >> Sure! I have a few of them. I usually get them for free because they >> are "broken". I replace the batteries and they are as good as new. I >> have even gotten a hold of an expensive "sine wave" UPS. Most UPSs >> use a sum of square waves to simulate the 60Hz sine wave. There are >> lots of transients and noise, however. Some (expensive) UPSs use a >> different type of inverter and produce pure sine wave AC. If you put >> an accessory plug in the side, you can use it to keep the batteries >> topped off and plug into the accessory plug for volts. Be careful >> though, the better ones use 2 12V batteries in series. > > You need to be very careful with this - I have seen units that have one side > of line voltage on the battery terminals. This is not a problem with the > batteries sealed in the UPS, but could be a big problem if you try to bring > leads out to charge a battery. > > I have about 25 UPS' I picked up at a local university sale for $30 total. The > largest was a 2KW unit with 18 12V batteries, one of which was dead :-). > Metalworking content - after replacing the one bad battery I tested it using my > bandsaw.... I almost bought a 15 kva UPS for $49, but decided that I had too much on my hands already... i Article: 95068 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "RST Engineering" Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 23:55:26 -0800 Message-ID: <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> Well, just for starters, what does Spice say about a 1000 pf capacitor with either ½" lead lengths or a total of 1" of PCB trace at 150 MHz.? Jim "John Larkin" wrote in message news:ms55o1d4h3rrlkp1l4igkfufa807krib8a@4ax.com... > On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:40:40 -0800, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" > wrote: > >>You are going to use Spice to model an RF circuit. DId I get that right? >> >>Jim >> >> > > Why not? > > John > > Article: 95069 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Henry Kiefer" References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:18:46 +0100 Message-ID: <4382ffe2$0$27884$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Ok Jim. You're asked about the stray components hidden in the real parts/circuit. If you take the values from the datasheets for die and/or package or give it a guess if not available, and add values for the pcb lines, you have a good simulation result. The pcb by itself is not of much interest if you simulate not much over 100MegHz. Even starting a oscillator with thermal noise is possible! Sure, you must know what you're doing :-) Spice by itself can simulate almost all if you have the right models included - even if you wanna simulate a mechanical system. There is no frequency limit at least to 100GHz. Do you had bad result doing Spice? To come back to your question: Spice will give you better results than your real circuit! You can connect a probe with no interaction to the circuit! Try this with your real parts! Don't forget the component variations in real circuits coming from the manufacturing processes of the parts. - Henry "RST Engineering" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com... > Well, just for starters, what does Spice say about a 1000 pf capacitor with > either ½" lead lengths or a total of 1" of PCB trace at 150 MHz.? > > Jim > > > > > "John Larkin" wrote in message > news:ms55o1d4h3rrlkp1l4igkfufa807krib8a@4ax.com... > > On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:40:40 -0800, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" > > wrote: > > > >>You are going to use Spice to model an RF circuit. DId I get that right? > >> > >>Jim > >> > >> > > > > Why not? > > > > John > > > > > > Article: 95070 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Henry Kiefer" References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <1132622501.128593.126840@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1132623435.194584.293170@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:20:25 +0100 Message-ID: <4382ffe3$0$27884$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Thank Mark! MC and Maxim is not new to me. I thought on list of cheap, easy getting parts with reasonable performance. - Henry "Mark" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:1132623435.194584.293170@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > there are lots of parts... > > stat by looking at these vendors > > Mini Circuits > Maxum > > Mark > Article: 95071 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "John A" Subject: Re: Bridge Rectifier Info Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:31:22 -0000 Message-ID: References: Could it be an FC142? This is a Westinghouse bridge rated at 250v, 40mA? Article: 95072 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Message-ID: References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <1132622501.128593.126840@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1132623435.194584.293170@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <4382ffe3$0$27884$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:53:46 GMT On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:20:25 +0100, "Henry Kiefer" wrote: >Thank Mark! > >MC and Maxim is not new to me. I thought on list of cheap, easy getting >parts with reasonable performance. > >- Henry Minicircuits the MIMICs and mixers are of most interest and there are inexpensive versions in the line up. What both offer is well characterized RF 50 ohm port parts that behave well in circuits. For example you can build a DBM, can you say for sure what the characteristics will be from say 2-500mhz? Other useful parts from there are VCOs and RF transformers. Allison Article: 95073 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "John A" Subject: Re: choke input voltage doubler? Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:58:06 -0000 Message-ID: References: If the inductor in your design is replaced by a piece of wire, the diodes will directly charge the two capacitors and the connected equipment will draw charge from the capacitor pair. If you then replace the wire with an inductor, ALL that will change is that the capacitors will charge less effectively and you'll have a less efficient, bulkier and more expensive power supply. As simple as that? ;-} Article: 95074 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Ignoramus1487 Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <43822356.4A1E3D17@snet.net> <-vOdnTG5yJoo9h_eRVn-pg@comcast.com> <1132674796.572921.121460@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <2HHgf.8601$_a.5998@fe40.usenetserver.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:28:46 GMT On 22 Nov 2005 07:53:16 -0800, Too_Many_Tools wrote: > "2. The charging current of the tiny native 1400va ups batteries is > probably much less than that of the car batteries. Higher current > coulld damage the charging circuit of the UPS. You could make some > current limiter (see Art of Electronics) to limit charging current, > but it probably is not worth the time. " > > Why would that matter? > > Wouldn't the charging circuit be current limited? I would not make an assumption like that without verifying it. i Article: 95075 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "RST Engineering" Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:05:02 -0800 Message-ID: <11o6neic2a7gt64@corp.supernews.com> References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <4382ffe2$0$27884$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> "Henry Kiefer" wrote in message news:4382ffe2$0$27884$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net... > Ok Jim. You're asked about the stray components hidden in the real > parts/circuit. There is nothing hidden at all. Strays are a part of the real life at VHF and above. Sometimes strays have more effect than the part itself. If you take the values from the datasheets for die and/or > package or give it a guess if not available, and add values for the pcb > lines, you have a good simulation result. Horsefeathers. What "values" do you add for the pcb lines? The pcb by itself is not of much > interest if you simulate not much over 100MegHz. Even starting a > oscillator > with thermal noise is possible! > Sure, you must know what you're doing :-) As with anything in the world. > > Spice by itself can simulate almost all if you have the right models > included - even if you wanna simulate a mechanical system. There is no > frequency limit at least to 100GHz. The problem is getting the right models, which is an art in and of itself. > > Do you had bad result doing Spice? > > To come back to your question: Spice will give you better results than > your > real circuit! You can connect a probe with no interaction to the circuit! > Try this with your real parts! Don't forget the component variations in > real > circuits coming from the manufacturing processes of the parts. Again I ask the question: What does Spice say about a 1000 pf capacitor with 1" total lead length at 150 MHz.? Don't give me the BS about Spice being "better than a real circuit". Until you can give me a ferrite slug on one end of a toothpick and a brass slug on the other end to increase or decrease inductance in Spice, the physical circuit is the "real" circuit. Jim Article: 95076 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Ignoramus1487 Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <43822356.4A1E3D17@snet.net> <-vOdnTG5yJoo9h_eRVn-pg@comcast.com> <1132674796.572921.121460@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <2HHgf.8601$_a.5998@fe40.usenetserver.com> <1132685461.553016.209410@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:00:42 GMT On 22 Nov 2005 10:51:01 -0800, Too_Many_Tools wrote: > How would one verify it in a UPS? > Try calling APC and ask them (with your particular model) if you can hook up an extra or external battery to it. See what they say. I blew a charging circuit on one UPS once. It was a ferrups that I picked up from trash. I wanted to use it as a powerful inverter for powering my home from my pickup, so its charging capabilities did not interest me. For a few years, it was my house power backup. It worked great, producing power from truck's battery. i Article: 95077 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Ignoramus1487 Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <43822356.4A1E3D17@snet.net> <-vOdnTG5yJoo9h_eRVn-pg@comcast.com> <1132674796.572921.121460@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <2HHgf.8601$_a.5998@fe40.usenetserver.com> <1132685461.553016.209410@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1132687210.699766.160170@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:31:55 GMT On 22 Nov 2005 11:20:10 -0800, Too_Many_Tools wrote: > Yes, one could call if the company is still around and they want to > tell you. > > What if the UPS is propietary or if the company is long gone? Well, can you tell us what these UPSes are? > Any test setup one can rig to measure rated charging capability? You can sacrifice one UPS and just try using a car battery. i Article: 95078 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Ron Price" References: Subject: Re: Bridge Rectifier Info Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:42:32 GMT I thought that also John but it is very clearly marked as FC442! Thanks, Ron GW4EVX "John A" wrote in message news:dlv35c$h31$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk... > Could it be an FC142? This is a Westinghouse bridge rated at 250v, 40mA? > > Article: 95079 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Bob Headrick" Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:55:29 -0800 Message-ID: <11o71e72oifva06@corp.supernews.com> References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11o592i478r2dc2@corp.supernews.com> <07qdnVvtoq2Lkh7enZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@pipex.net> "Highland Ham" wrote in message news:07qdnVvtoq2Lkh7enZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@pipex.net... > Bob , Interesting info ; can you confirm that the 18 pcs 12V battery were > in fact 9 strings of 2 batts in series (each string having a fuse ) > providing 24 V ? or were all the 18 batts in parallel ? Actually they were all in series, making it a bit nerve-wracking to replace a battery in the string. - Bob W7OV Article: 95080 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Ignoramus1487 Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <43822356.4A1E3D17@snet.net> <-vOdnTG5yJoo9h_eRVn-pg@comcast.com> <1132674796.572921.121460@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <2HHgf.8601$_a.5998@fe40.usenetserver.com> <1132685461.553016.209410@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:12:38 GMT On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:05:54 -0500, Brent Atkerson wrote: > This one interests me. Wonder how many small UPSs you could run from a > truck battery (assuming using heavy enough cables between each UPS and each > battery [when needed for the 24 volt input]). I am sure you would have to > leave the vehicle running if running the UPSs for any length of time or > heavy load... Probably pretty basic questions but I am kind of interested > because I have a couple laying around and never thought of using them as an > inverter (powered by a vehicle). That would make a neat addition to a > garden tractor or something too... > Beware that some UPSes refuse to start without A/C voltage present. Kind of stupid, but it's reality. That could hinder their use for emergency. 12V is a very low voltage and you need big cables. Your battery can produce a lot of amps intermittently, so with it, you could run loads that are not too high on average. For example, on 70 amps, you could run about 700 watts of power (after considering all losses). That's enough to power up the furnace and a few fluorescent lights or the TV. Maybe even a refrigerator. Since your truck recharges the battery as it runs, the battery acts as a buffer/smoother of your alternator's output and can help produce power without frying the alternator. i Article: 95081 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Ignoramus1487 Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <43822356.4A1E3D17@snet.net> <-vOdnTG5yJoo9h_eRVn-pg@comcast.com> <1132674796.572921.121460@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <2HHgf.8601$_a.5998@fe40.usenetserver.com> <1132685461.553016.209410@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:40:24 GMT On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:23:36 -0500, Brent Atkerson wrote: > There are 2 types of UPS. One, the load actually runs off the battery (the > UPS just keeps the battery charged and inverts the DC power to AC) and the > other the load actually runs on line voltage and switches to battery when > line voltage disappears (this is probably the type you are speaking of but I > have not tested that). > Also, should not need any heavier cables (except to account for the longer > length that may occur between truck battery and UPS) as long as using the > UPS within the design specifications. I think it is generally about 12 Ga. > wire between the battery and UPS (at least in the PC world, servers might be > a little bigger since the batteries are often in series). > He wants to run house equipment from 12V. To run, say, 500 watt, he needs about 50A of current. Cannot do that well on 12 gauge. 10 gauge, maybe if the run is not too far. i Article: 95082 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: novatech@eskimo.com (Steven Swift) Subject: Simple triggered sweep. Date: 22 Nov 2005 21:41:19 GMT Message-ID: Greetings. A short while ago, I posted a request for links to simple triggered sweeps for older recurrent timebase oscilloscopes. I spent a fair amount of time looking in old magazines and circuit handbooks, but didn't find what I thought I was looking for. So I decided to cobble-up a homebrew of my own. This circuit probably has been done before, but it met my criterion of being really simple. I used already on-hand parts, so the design is far from optimum. It works fine on an Eico 460 up to about 1MHz. No attempt was made to make a calibrated sweep. You could use a 5v rail and an HC4538 to make a nice high speed triggered sweep. Have a look at: http://novatech-instr.com/Fun/trig.pdf Thank you to all of you who sent me emails and posted comments on these boards. Steve. Seattle,WA. -- Steven D. Swift, novatech@eskimo.com, http://www.novatech-instr.com NOVATECH INSTRUMENTS, INC. P.O. Box 55997 206.301.8986, fax 206.363.4367 Seattle, Washington 98155 USA Article: 95083 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Chris Jones Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:39:29 +0000 Message-ID: <11o77g69er67g06@corp.supernews.com> References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <4382ffe2$0$27884$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o6neic2a7gt64@corp.supernews.com> RST Engineering wrote: > > "Henry Kiefer" wrote in message > news:4382ffe2$0$27884$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net... > >> Ok Jim. You're asked about the stray components hidden in the real >> parts/circuit. > > There is nothing hidden at all. Strays are a part of the real life at VHF > and above. Sometimes strays have more effect than the part itself. You have to put the strays into the spice model if you want an accurate result, just like you would have to if you work it out with a pencil and paper. > If you take the values from the datasheets for die and/or >> package or give it a guess if not available, and add values for the pcb >> lines, you have a good simulation result. > > Horsefeathers. What "values" do you add for the pcb lines? You can work out the inductance, resistance (including skin effect) and capacitance of arbitrary structures using the free programs FastCap and FastHenry, though these consider inductive and capacitive effects separately so you have to break the problem into several parts sometimes, e.g. if the structure is a significant fraction of a wavelength in size. Constructing the model files can be tedious, and you may end up having to write some code to automate it. You can view the model files using a viewer program which used to be and hopefully still is available from www.fastfieldsolvers.com You could also buy one of the commercial full-wave solvers if you have more spare money than time. > The pcb by itself is not of much >> interest if you simulate not much over 100MegHz. Even starting a >> oscillator >> with thermal noise is possible! >> Sure, you must know what you're doing :-) > > As with anything in the world. > > >> >> Spice by itself can simulate almost all if you have the right models >> included - even if you wanna simulate a mechanical system. There is no >> frequency limit at least to 100GHz. > > The problem is getting the right models, which is an art in and of itself. Right but you have to do that one way or another anyway even if the model is inside your head, unless you design purely by trial and error. >> Do you had bad result doing Spice? >> >> To come back to your question: Spice will give you better results than >> your >> real circuit! You can connect a probe with no interaction to the circuit! >> Try this with your real parts! Don't forget the component variations in >> real >> circuits coming from the manufacturing processes of the parts. > > Again I ask the question: What does Spice say about a 1000 pf capacitor > with 1" total lead length at 150 MHz.? Don't give me the BS about Spice > being "better than a real circuit". Until you can give me a ferrite slug > on one end of a toothpick and a brass slug on the other end to increase or > decrease inductance in Spice, the physical circuit is the "real" circuit. > > Jim The real advantage of spice is in situations where trial and error is more expensive than getting it right the first time (where you can justify spending a long time making good models). He does also have a point about being able to probe components inside a circuit that you could never probe on a real one due to loading effects of the real probe. It seems to me that your real objection is not with computer simulation of circuits, but rather with poor models for components. Fair enough, garbage in garbage out, but I would consider using bad models to be a form of 'user error'. Chris Article: 95084 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: ehsjr Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <43822356.4A1E3D17@snet.net> <-vOdnTG5yJoo9h_eRVn-pg@comcast.com> <1132674796.572921.121460@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <2HHgf.8601$_a.5998@fe40.usenetserver.com> <1132685461.553016.209410@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1132687210.699766.160170@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 00:18:45 GMT Too_Many_Tools wrote: > Yes, one could call if the company is still around and they want to > tell you. > > What if the UPS is propietary or if the company is long gone? Assume the UPS was designed to properly charge the batteries. Look up the battery manufacturer's recommended charge rate. As a practical matter, that's probably the best most people can do when the UPS specs are not available. > > Any test setup one can rig to measure rated charging capability? Well, if you happen to have a high wattage fully adjustable load (not very damn likely) and the wherewithal to fool the UPS into "thinking" that a battery is connected (with a variable supply and a diode or maybe a big 'lytic), you could plot a charge curve by measuring the current through the load and the voltage across it. Ed > > TMT > Article: 95085 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: novatech@eskimo.com (Steven Swift) Subject: Re: Simple triggered sweep. Date: 23 Nov 2005 00:29:07 GMT Message-ID: References: John Popelish writes: >I think you could use an LM361 comparator in place of the front opamp. > It produces high going and low going digital outputs that you can >enable separately, so you can choose whether you want to sync on >positive going or negative going edges, without changing the switching >threshold. >It will also clock the flip flop a lot faster than an opamp will. >http://www.national.com/ds.cgi/LM/LM161.pdf Yup, good call! I actually have a 361 based circuit I built a long time ago. It works to about 50MHz. It is overkill for this purpose, but would be the right choice, along with an HC4538, if someone wanted to modify this and go to higher frequencies. You actually have to move some pins around on the 4538 to make it non-retriggerable. On the 361 board, I use long-tailed pair miller integrators to get near perfect sweeps. But that was a complete homebrew scope I designed in 1978 or so. Thanks. Steve -- Steven D. Swift, novatech@eskimo.com, http://www.novatech-instr.com NOVATECH INSTRUMENTS, INC. P.O. Box 55997 206.301.8986, fax 206.363.4367 Seattle, Washington 98155 USA Article: 95086 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "wa2mze(spamless)" <"wa2mze(spamless)"@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: choke input voltage doubler? References: <-oWdnRnFu6GVOePeRVn-qQ@adelphia.com> <-sudnS4NPMzb0OLeRVn-gw@adelphia.com> <87ydnd4TdaL94eLeRVn-qw@adelphia.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:37:26 -0500 John Popelish wrote: > wa2mze(spamless) wrote: > >> John Popelish wrote: > > >>> Not at all well, because you have provided no path for the inductor >>> current when the voltage from the transformer tires to reverse bias the >>> diode. So the inductor will keep the diode conducting as the voltage >>> reverses. This is not at all the way a choke input filter acts with a >>> full wave rectifier. I am quite sure you have never seen a choke input >>> filter in a half wave supply, for this reason. >> >> >> I guess I can't recall seeing a half wave rectifier circuit using >> a choke input filter, but I thought that was because half wave >> circuits are usually used in low voltage circuits where a choke >> input filter would not have any advantage anyway. > > > The advantages of a choke input filter (lower RMS transformer current > per amp of DC output, much lower high frequencies in the ripple, less > voltage sag with increase in load current, etc.) are not directly > related to the output voltage. The concept of a choke input filter is > that the current is continuous through the inductor, and so, into the > capacitor. A capacitor input filter charges the cap during brief pulses > at the line peaks, instead, producing a higher RMS transformer current > and higher harmonic ripple components, but also higher peak output voltage. > >> However in a full wave circuit how is there an alternate path? >> The center tapped transformer simply provides two ac excitations >> to two rectifiers 180 degress out of phase. > > > The inductor current switches from one rectifier to the other as the > transformer voltage goes through zero. At the moment the transformer > voltage is zero, the inductor draws current through both rectifiers, > producing an input voltage to the inductor 1 diode plus transformer > resistance drop below the center tap voltage. > >> This allows only >> one rectifier to conduct at a time. True, there is a more or less >> constant excitation to the choke, but there is NO reverse path as >> the diodes still only allow conduction in one direction. > > > I suggest you follow those currents through the inductor for a full > cycle. Since the inductor is in series with the secondary, if the > secondary conducts in both directions (alternating which diode is > conducting) then the inductor must also conduct in both directions. > >> Either way the choke sees a DC current, not an AC one (minus the >> ripple, which a half sinewave imposed on a dc current). > > > The diodes are turned opposite ways, so one conducts DC one way, and one > conducts DC the other way. Both those currents pass alternately through > the same inductor. I tried a mental exercise, I redrew the voltage doubler adding another winding to the power transformer to provide output 180 degress out of phase and added two more diodes so I now had each capacitor feed by both rectified phases. The result, is of course, a full wave bridge rectifier, but with a center tap of the transformer coupled to the junction of the two filter capacitors. This is similar to the dual voltage power supplies so often seen in the ARRL handbooks from the 60's and 70's for tube transmitters. I suppose a choke could be placed in the lead from the anodes of one pair of diodes to ground, so it would be commond to both outputs and the lead from the transformer centertap isn't needed. Article: 95087 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes From: "Martin H. Eastburn" Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:37:25 -0600 Message-ID: <1132706398_22791@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11o592i478r2dc2@corp.supernews.com> <0Fxgf.546$x56.371@fe16.usenetserver.com> <1132694547.178571.113170@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Crazy hose must have a HP mini running Bruno! Bruno could draw up the darnest pictures and export them as ascii for teletype transport. Martin [ all of my paper tape - 5 and 8 level were given away or dumped last year. ] Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder crazy_horse_12002@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Ignoramus14135 wrote: > >>On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:53:33 -0800, Bob Headrick wrote: >> > >>I almost bought a 15 kva UPS for $49, but decided that I had too much >>on my hands already... >> >>i > > > /| /| _____________________ > ||__|| | | > / O O\__ | PLEASE DO NOT | > / \ | FEED THE TROLLS | > / \ \|_____________________| > / _ \ \ || > / |\____\ \ || > / | | | |\____/ || > / \|_|_|/ | _|| > / / \ |____| || > / | | | --| > | | | |____ --| > * _ | |_|_|_| | \-/ > *-- _--\ _ \ | || > / _ \\ | / ` > * / \_ /- | | | > * ___ C_c_c_C/ \C_c_c_c____________ > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 95088 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Yukio YANO Subject: Re: Simple triggered sweep. References: Message-ID: <0%Ogf.578157$tl2.287340@pd7tw3no> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 00:47:56 GMT Steven Swift wrote: > Greetings. > > A short while ago, I posted a request for links to simple triggered > sweeps for older recurrent timebase oscilloscopes. I spent a fair > amount of time looking in old magazines and circuit handbooks, but > didn't find what I thought I was looking for. > > So I decided to cobble-up a homebrew of my own. This circuit probably > has been done before, but it met my criterion of being really simple. > I used already on-hand parts, so the design is far from optimum. It > works fine on an Eico 460 up to about 1MHz. No attempt was made to make > a calibrated sweep. You could use a 5v rail and an HC4538 to make a > nice high speed triggered sweep. > > Have a look at: > > http://novatech-instr.com/Fun/trig.pdf > > Thank you to all of you who sent me emails and posted comments on these > boards. > > Steve. > Seattle,WA. It would seem to me relatively easy to replace the horizontal sweep oscillator with a 555 chip ! and trigger it with a sample of the vertical Amp. signal ! Yukio YANO Article: 95089 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <4383C081.3960E781@snet.net> From: "Pete C." Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 01:06:11 GMT Too_Many_Tools wrote: > > Most are APCs but I have others (Best, Minuteman, etc.) and have access > to several others I have yet to see. > > My questions are an attempt to learn so I can evaluate all them > properly. > > I appreciate the information from those who have gone before and still > are around to tell about. ;<) > > TMT If you have any Best Fortress 1420s of the older model with the 4 digit display, I might be interested in purchasing them sans batteries to save on shipping if the price it right. Pete C. Article: 95090 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken Smith) Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 01:36:20 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <4382ffe2$0$27884$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o6neic2a7gt64@corp.supernews.com> In article <11o6neic2a7gt64@corp.supernews.com>, RST Engineering wrote: > >"Henry Kiefer" wrote in message >news:4382ffe2$0$27884$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net... > >> Ok Jim. You're asked about the stray components hidden in the real >> parts/circuit. > >There is nothing hidden at all. Strays are a part of the real life at VHF >and above. Sometimes strays have more effect than the part itself. Heck, that can happen before you hit 1MHz. Check out the ESL and ESR of a 47,000uF capacitor some time. -- -- kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge Article: 95091 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:52:06 -0800 Message-ID: <11o7iq78697846d@corp.supernews.com> References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <4382ffe2$0$27884$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o6neic2a7gt64@corp.supernews.com> Ken Smith wrote: > > Heck, that can happen before you hit 1MHz. Check out the ESL and ESR of a > 47,000uF capacitor some time. > How about dielectric absorption ("soak")? I first encountered this in an electrolytic capacitor being used for generating a sweep of about a minute duration. The capacitor had to be kept shorted for several seconds between sweeps in order for the charge to adequately empty, an equivalent frequency of less than one Hz. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 95092 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Joel Kolstad" Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:53:11 -0800 Message-ID: <11o7iv99ppgmsca@corp.supernews.com> References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <4382ffe2$0$27884$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o6neic2a7gt64@corp.supernews.com> "Ken Smith" wrote in message news:dm0h2k$8hi$4@blue.rahul.net... > Heck, that can happen before you hit 1MHz. Check out the ESL and ESR of a > 47,000uF capacitor some time. For some of the university work I've done, some of our reference papers are >from people modeling power lines as full-fledged transmission lines that are many wavelengths long at 50Hz. No simple equivalent circuit model works for them either! Article: 95093 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Greg O" Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:59:55 -0600 Message-ID: <11o7j97nqklkf84@corp.supernews.com> References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <43822356.4A1E3D17@snet.net> <-vOdnTG5yJoo9h_eRVn-pg@comcast.com> <1132674796.572921.121460@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <2HHgf.8601$_a.5998@fe40.usenetserver.com> <1132685461.553016.209410@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1132687210.699766.160170@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1132706803.290527.130400@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message news:1132706803.290527.130400@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > Most are APCs but I have others (Best, Minuteman, etc.) and have access > to several others I have yet to see. > > My questions are an attempt to learn so I can evaluate all them > properly. > > I appreciate the information from those who have gone before and still > are around to tell about. ;<) > > TMT > I have two Minuteman units I rescued from work. Both just needed batteries. I opened them up so I could get to the battery while they were plugged in and checked the charging voltage. It was something over what the battery was rated, 13 volts and a 12 volt battery, so I figured that the charging circuit was ok. The UPS worked as far as running a load when unplugged, but they had no reserve capacity so I took a chance and put batteries in them. Greg Article: 95094 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Joel Kolstad" Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:02:45 -0800 Message-ID: <11o7jh8jtqdnk13@corp.supernews.com> References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <4382ffe2$0$27884$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o6neic2a7gt64@corp.supernews.com> <11o7iv99ppgmsca@corp.supernews.com> "Joel Kolstad" wrote in message news:11o7iv99ppgmsca@corp.supernews.com... > For some of the university work I've done, some of our reference papers are > from people modeling power lines as full-fledged transmission lines that are > many wavelengths long at 50Hz. No simple equivalent circuit model works for > them either! OK, I did get a little over-excited there -- it should say "that are significant fractions of a wavelength long," (e.g., more than 1/6th) such that you can't use a simple circuit model for them. Article: 95095 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: John Larkin Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:12:09 -0800 Message-ID: References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 23:55:26 -0800, "RST Engineering" wrote: >Well, just for starters, what does Spice say about a 1000 pf capacitor with >either ½" lead lengths or a total of 1" of PCB trace at 150 MHz.? > >Jim > > When they matter, just poke in the appropriate series L or a bit of transmission line. I use Spice now and then to sim picosecond stuff. Even if the simulation isn't highly accurate, it helps train your instincts, shows you which parasitics will have which effects, so when you build the real thing you have a jump on the complexity. Hell, 150 MHz is slow. John Article: 95096 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: John Larkin Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:14:52 -0800 Message-ID: References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <4382ffe2$0$27884$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o6neic2a7gt64@corp.supernews.com> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:05:02 -0800, "RST Engineering" wrote: > >"Henry Kiefer" wrote in message >news:4382ffe2$0$27884$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net... > >> Ok Jim. You're asked about the stray components hidden in the real >> parts/circuit. > >There is nothing hidden at all. Strays are a part of the real life at VHF >and above. Sometimes strays have more effect than the part itself. > > > > If you take the values from the datasheets for die and/or >> package or give it a guess if not available, and add values for the pcb >> lines, you have a good simulation result. > >Horsefeathers. What "values" do you add for the pcb lines? > > Lumped L and C if things are slow, or a hunk of transmission line when things get fast. Works fine. John Article: 95097 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:37:29 -0800 Message-ID: <11o7lfasini0k06@corp.supernews.com> References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <4382ffe2$0$27884$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o6neic2a7gt64@corp.supernews.com> <11o7iv99ppgmsca@corp.supernews.com> <11o7jh8jtqdnk13@corp.supernews.com> Joel Kolstad wrote: > "Joel Kolstad" wrote in message > news:11o7iv99ppgmsca@corp.supernews.com... > >>For some of the university work I've done, some of our reference papers are >>from people modeling power lines as full-fledged transmission lines that are >>many wavelengths long at 50Hz. No simple equivalent circuit model works for >>them either! > > > OK, I did get a little over-excited there -- it should say "that are > significant fractions of a wavelength long," (e.g., more than 1/6th) such that > you can't use a simple circuit model for them. > That's interesting -- SPICE has models for (lossless) transmission lines, and lines of that length can also be adequately modeled with a few LC sections. I can imagine line loss could be tricky, though. I've modeled skin effect loss in the process of designing time-domain circuits to compensate for delay line loss over a wide time range (and therefore broad frequency range). But loss due to interaction of the fields with ground underneath the wires might be more difficult. At least you've only got one frequency to deal with -- unless harmonic content is high enough to worry about. Perhaps you've also got to deal with loss due to radiation? Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 95098 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: budgie Subject: Re: Standard GX3000 HEX File Creation? Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 11:51:16 +0800 Message-ID: References: <4f41o1933aqc8965dn89bcvd433rhp0bh6@4ax.com> On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 23:12:41 +0800, budgie wrote: >On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 18:16:08 -0330, "Bill" wrote: > >>Can anyone tell me how to create the HEX code for the 27C16 EPROM in the VHF >>Standard GX3000 64CH radio, or can anyone tell me where to find software to >>create the HEX file? I have an EPROM programmer that will program the 27C16 >>EPROM, so I just need a way to create the file. I would pay for the >>software or trade some of my radio manuals or radio software for it. > >Can one of you with this issue email me a BINARY taken from an eprom from a >working GX3000, together with a list of the frequencies you generate from that >eprom? > >Addie is fortyfour (as digits).at.westnet.com.au > >I'll see what I can do. Obviously no takers. All trolls or just too hard? Article: 95099 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Ignoramus1487 Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <43822356.4A1E3D17@snet.net> <-vOdnTG5yJoo9h_eRVn-pg@comcast.com> <1132674796.572921.121460@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <2HHgf.8601$_a.5998@fe40.usenetserver.com> <1132685461.553016.209410@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1132687210.699766.160170@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1132706803.290527.130400@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 03:59:40 GMT On 22 Nov 2005 16:46:43 -0800, Too_Many_Tools wrote: > Most are APCs but I have others (Best, Minuteman, etc.) and have access You can call APC. As for Best, I blew one Best trying to use a different battery. > to several others I have yet to see. > > My questions are an attempt to learn so I can evaluate all them > properly. > > I appreciate the information from those who have gone before and still > are around to tell about. ;<) it is not that easy to die... i Article: 95100 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "RST Engineering \(jw\)" Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:21:01 -0800 Message-ID: <11o82iimo8iv1d6@corp.supernews.com> References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> Agreed, John, 150 MHz is damned near DC for a lot of us, but as yet I have no answer from the "spice" folks for the 1 nf capacitor question. A lot of fancydancing but no answers. Jim "John Larkin" wrote in message news:dpj7o19ch3ekfq6c1ekhnr65iouq76trrk@4ax.com... > On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 23:55:26 -0800, "RST Engineering" > wrote: > >>Well, just for starters, what does Spice say about a 1000 pf capacitor >>with >>either ½" lead lengths or a total of 1" of PCB trace at 150 MHz.? >> >>Jim >> >> > > When they matter, just poke in the appropriate series L or a bit of > transmission line. I use Spice now and then to sim picosecond stuff. > Even if the simulation isn't highly accurate, it helps train your > instincts, shows you which parasitics will have which effects, so when > you build the real thing you have a jump on the complexity. > > Hell, 150 MHz is slow. > > John > > Article: 95101 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <11o82iimo8iv1d6@corp.supernews.com> From: John Devereux Date: 23 Nov 2005 09:43:23 +0000 Message-ID: <87oe4bn1hg.fsf@cordelia.devereux.me.uk> "RST Engineering \(jw\)" writes: > Agreed, John, 150 MHz is damned near DC for a lot of us, but as yet I have > no answer from the "spice" folks for the 1 nf capacitor question. A lot of > fancydancing but no answers. I am not an expert, but can you not just add a bit of series L to approximate this? Or even transmission line for higher frequencies / longer tracks. I have had surprisingly good results simulating a single transistor UHF oscillator at ~500MHz. The results agreed with reality quite well, even *without* explicitly modelling all the parasitics. Certainly spice was better than me at predicting what would happen (although that is not saying much!) I guess perhaps the reason that I could get away with this was because of the small size and high performance of SMT parts these days. -- John Devereux Article: 95102 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <43844704.391277DD@snet.net> From: "Pete C." Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11o592i478r2dc2@corp.supernews.com> <07qdnVvtoq2Lkh7enZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@pipex.net> <11o71e72oifva06@corp.supernews.com> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:40:05 GMT nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote: > > On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:55:29 -0800, "Bob Headrick" > wrote: > > > > >"Highland Ham" wrote in message > >news:07qdnVvtoq2Lkh7enZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@pipex.net... > > > >> Bob , Interesting info ; can you confirm that the 18 pcs 12V battery were > >> in fact 9 strings of 2 batts in series (each string having a fuse ) > >> providing 24 V ? or were all the 18 batts in parallel ? > > > >Actually they were all in series, making it a bit nerve-wracking to replace a > >battery in the string. > > > > - Bob W7OV > > > 216 volt battery pack??? I don't think so. Not very common on a unit as small as 2kW, but very common on units in the double digit kw range. If he meant 20kW instead of 2kW, it almost certainly had a high voltage battery string. Much more efficient to have the higher voltage at much lower current to convert to the high voltage AC. On a 20kW unit that would put your battery current in the 85A range for a 2xxV battery string vs. 850A range for a 24V battery string. Pete C. Article: 95103 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Boris Mohar Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes Message-ID: References: <43822356.4A1E3D17@snet.net> <-vOdnTG5yJoo9h_eRVn-pg@comcast.com> <1132674796.572921.121460@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <2HHgf.8601$_a.5998@fe40.usenetserver.com> <1132685461.553016.209410@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 05:40:26 -0500 On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:05:54 -0500, "Brent Atkerson" wrote: >This one interests me. Wonder how many small UPSs you could run from a >truck battery (assuming using heavy enough cables between each UPS and each >battery [when needed for the 24 volt input]). I am sure you would have to >leave the vehicle running if running the UPSs for any length of time or >heavy load... Probably pretty basic questions but I am kind of interested >because I have a couple laying around and never thought of using them as an >inverter (powered by a vehicle). That would make a neat addition to a >garden tractor or something too... Better check first if the UPS can handle a log term run of a battery. It might be that it was designed for a short term, just to give you enough time to power everything down properly. Longer runt time might cause some marginal designs to overheat. Regards, Boris Mohar Got Knock? - see: Viatrack Printed Circuit Designs (among other things) http://www.viatrack.ca void _-void-_ in the obvious place Article: 95104 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Bill" References: <4f41o1933aqc8965dn89bcvd433rhp0bh6@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Standard GX3000 HEX File Creation? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:23:23 -0330 I was emailed some software written in GWBASIC that seems to do the trick. If anyone else is interested in the software email me directly. Thanks for the help. "budgie" wrote in message news:eop7o1h86ektm8necmaofj843l0vtpfhcc@4ax.com... > On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 23:12:41 +0800, budgie wrote: > >>On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 18:16:08 -0330, "Bill" wrote: >> >>>Can anyone tell me how to create the HEX code for the 27C16 EPROM in the >>>VHF >>>Standard GX3000 64CH radio, or can anyone tell me where to find software >>>to >>>create the HEX file? I have an EPROM programmer that will program the >>>27C16 >>>EPROM, so I just need a way to create the file. I would pay for the >>>software or trade some of my radio manuals or radio software for it. >> >>Can one of you with this issue email me a BINARY taken from an eprom from >>a >>working GX3000, together with a list of the frequencies you generate from >>that >>eprom? >> >>Addie is fortyfour (as digits).at.westnet.com.au >> >>I'll see what I can do. > > Obviously no takers. All trolls or just too hard? Article: 95105 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net Subject: Re: Simple triggered sweep. Message-ID: References: Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 13:07:33 GMT On 22 Nov 2005 21:41:19 GMT, novatech@eskimo.com (Steven Swift) wrote: >Greetings. > >A short while ago, I posted a request for links to simple triggered >sweeps for older recurrent timebase oscilloscopes. I spent a fair >amount of time looking in old magazines and circuit handbooks, but >didn't find what I thought I was looking for. > >So I decided to cobble-up a homebrew of my own. This circuit probably >has been done before, but it met my criterion of being really simple. >I used already on-hand parts, so the design is far from optimum. It >works fine on an Eico 460 up to about 1MHz. No attempt was made to make >a calibrated sweep. You could use a 5v rail and an HC4538 to make a >nice high speed triggered sweep. > >Have a look at: > >http://novatech-instr.com/Fun/trig.pdf > >Thank you to all of you who sent me emails and posted comments on these >boards. > >Steve. >Seattle,WA. Pretty good. Did a similar thing using 3 555s. One was used as a threshold detector, one for the Onshot (with a FET constant current source) and one for the retrigger holdoff oneshot. Worked to well to beyond the 5mhz scope it was used with. Allison Article: 95106 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Winfield Hill Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: 23 Nov 2005 05:32:06 -0800 Message-ID: References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <11o82iimo8iv1d6@corp.supernews.com> jw\ wrote... > > Agreed, John, 150 MHz is damned near DC for a lot of us, but as > yet I have no answer from the "spice" folks for the 1 nf capacitor > question. A lot of fancydancing but no answers. Spice, smice. You got good answers. Wake up, spice is just an engine to run your component models in circuits of your making. Once one gets beyond the "toy" level of using spice it becomes necessary to vet and complete the models of all your critical components, including parasitic circuit elements. Want a good RF capacitor model, you do well to make it yourself, from the manufacturer's data and info, and from your understanding of the part, aided by theory and bench measurements. Then vet your model with more bench measurements. Thinking about component leads and PCB wiring? Hey, you need to explicitly add all these into your circuit. Just don't blame any resulting shortcomings on "spice." -- Thanks, - Win Article: 95107 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 06:23:58 -0800 Message-ID: <11o8uscr7q0n613@corp.supernews.com> References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <11o82iimo8iv1d6@corp.supernews.com> RST Engineering (jw) wrote: > Agreed, John, 150 MHz is damned near DC for a lot of us, but as yet I have > no answer from the "spice" folks for the 1 nf capacitor question. A lot of > fancydancing but no answers. > > Jim I didn't realize that this question was addressed to all "'spice' folks", but was directed only to the OP. That's probably why the "'spice' folks" haven't leapt to respond. Anyone who uses SPICE professionally, and indeed a great number of amateur users should be able to answer the question easily. At 150 MHz, a capacitor lead can generally be handled as a single lumped inductance. The amount depends on the wire's diameter and environment, but around 7 nH is a good working number for a half inch lead. The inductance of the capacitor body itself might have to be included in the model if high accuracy is important. Capacitance to ground, from both the leads and the capacitor body, might also be important if the impedance of the circuit to ground is high. If so, it can be included. The way I'd approach inclusion of the C would be to calculate the impedance and length of the transmission line comprised of the lead and ground plane or capacitor body and ground plane, then convert those values to a single series L and shunt C rather than just directly using a transmission line model -- very short transmission lines in a model can greatly slow SPICE calculations unless there are also other very short time constants involved. On the other hand, if the "leads" are PC traces over a ground plane, shunt capacitance will be higher, and the approach I mentioned with the transmission line is the way I'd always do it. The model for the leads would include both L and C. As an example, if the "lead" is a .010" trace on .032" FR4 material (er ~ 5) over a ground plane, it makes a transmission line of Z0 = 105 ohms, velocity factor 0.55. The equivalent L and C of a half inch of this line are 8 nH and 0.73 pF respectively. Other characteristics of the capacitor such as ESR might have to be included in the model depending on the application. You gave a capacitor value in your question -- an ideal capacitor of that value would of course be the other part of the model. SPICE is used daily, as it has been for decades, by professionals and produces strikingly good results in the hands of someone who is skilled at modeling and has a good understanding of the circuitry being modeled. I've personally used SPICE for modeling linear to highly nonlinear circuits up to 50 GHz, where even tiny SMT components were often modeled as transmission lines and every pad and solder blob is significant and included. The results were used in the design of products which have been successfully produced by the thousands and sold for years. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 95108 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Message-ID: References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <11o82iimo8iv1d6@corp.supernews.com> <11o8uscr7q0n613@corp.supernews.com> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:27:38 GMT On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 06:23:58 -0800, Roy Lewallen wrote: >RST Engineering (jw) wrote: >> Agreed, John, 150 MHz is damned near DC for a lot of us, but as yet I have >> no answer from the "spice" folks for the 1 nf capacitor question. A lot of >> fancydancing but no answers. >> >> Jim > >I didn't realize that this question was addressed to all "'spice' >folks", but was directed only to the OP. That's probably why the >"'spice' folks" haven't leapt to respond. Anyone who uses SPICE >professionally, and indeed a great number of amateur users should be >able to answer the question easily. > >At 150 MHz, a capacitor lead can generally be handled as a single lumped >inductance. The amount depends on the wire's diameter and environment, >but around 7 nH is a good working number for a half inch lead. The >inductance of the capacitor body itself might have to be included in the >model if high accuracy is important. Capacitance to ground, from both >the leads and the capacitor body, might also be important if the >impedance of the circuit to ground is high. If so, it can be included. >The way I'd approach inclusion of the C would be to calculate the >impedance and length of the transmission line comprised of the lead and >ground plane or capacitor body and ground plane, then convert those >values to a single series L and shunt C rather than just directly using >a transmission line model -- very short transmission lines in a model >can greatly slow SPICE calculations unless there are also other very >short time constants involved. The problem is the higher the frequency the more second and third order effects are noted. A 1000pF cap at 1mhz is a cap for all intents. At 150mhz it's now a complex RLC. >On the other hand, if the "leads" are PC traces over a ground plane, >shunt capacitance will be higher, and the approach I mentioned with the >transmission line is the way I'd always do it. The model for the leads >would include both L and C. As an example, if the "lead" is a .010" >trace on .032" FR4 material (er ~ 5) over a ground plane, it makes a >transmission line of Z0 = 105 ohms, velocity factor 0.55. The equivalent >L and C of a half inch of this line are 8 nH and 0.73 pF respectively. There is a point here where you have to ask is a PCB trace a cap, inductor or more realisticly a transmission line. Each has it's model and they are different. With two sided (or more layers) board the transmission line model is likely the one to use. Especially if your working with VHF transistors at any power level as impedences are in the range of a few hundred ohms on the high side and fractions of an ohm at the low side. Typical 30-100W devices have an imput imedence under 2 ohms ( and Xc) and output in the sub 4 ohms range depending on power. In those cases everything counts and getting hard numbers requires some work. It hits a hard nail on what model to use and when because spice will only give the results you asked for be they real or imagined. >Other characteristics of the capacitor such as ESR might have to be >included in the model depending on the application. In most I'd naturally assume though at low VHF it's less signigicant than at 2.4ghz. >You gave a capacitor value in your question -- an ideal capacitor of >that value would of course be the other part of the model. And depending on frequency it may be a open ended transmission line on the etch. >SPICE is used daily, as it has been for decades, by professionals and >produces strikingly good results in the hands of someone who is skilled >at modeling and has a good understanding of the circuitry being modeled. >I've personally used SPICE for modeling linear to highly nonlinear >circuits up to 50 GHz, where even tiny SMT components were often modeled >as transmission lines and every pad and solder blob is significant and >included. The results were used in the design of products which have >been successfully produced by the thousands and sold for years. > >Roy Lewallen, W7EL Spice is a great tool. Like every tool one must know how it works, how to use it to its fullest and knowing the tool can hurt you if abused. When introduced to spice for the first time I was told garbage in, garbage out and never assume that computer crunched garbage is anything other than composted garbage. What I've found is that Spice does allow you the luxury of saying "what if" or "how does that affect xxx" even if you are not sure it's real. Allison KB1GMX Article: 95109 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Bruce L. Bergman Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes Message-ID: References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11o592i478r2dc2@corp.supernews.com> <07qdnVvtoq2Lkh7enZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@pipex.net> <11o71e72oifva06@corp.supernews.com> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:13:58 GMT On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 00:38:17 -0500, nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote: >On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:55:29 -0800, "Bob Headrick" >wrote: >>"Highland Ham" wrote in message >>news:07qdnVvtoq2Lkh7enZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@pipex.net... >>> Bob , Interesting info ; can you confirm that the 18 pcs 12V battery were >>> in fact 9 strings of 2 batts in series (each string having a fuse ) >>> providing 24 V ? or were all the 18 batts in parallel ? >> >>Actually they were all in series, making it a bit nerve-wracking to replace a >>battery in the string. > >216 volt battery pack??? I don't think so. No, quite possible and makes some design sense - they would not need a heavy output transformer in the unit boosting the voltage of a 36V or 48V battery string after converting it to a sine wave AC, as 216V would be right around the sine wave peak voltage of 120VAC. Just run the battery DC through two sets of power transistors to let through a reconstituted sine wave - one for the positive half of the output waveform, the other negative. And it cuts the current the transistors have to pass. --<< Bruce >>-- -- Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545 Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. Article: 95110 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Ignoramus22022 Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11o592i478r2dc2@corp.supernews.com> <07qdnVvtoq2Lkh7enZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@pipex.net> <11o71e72oifva06@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: <4H0hf.10911$pF2.7827@fe48.usenetserver.com> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:22:24 GMT On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:13:58 GMT, Bruce L Bergman wrote: > On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 00:38:17 -0500, nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca > wrote: >>On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:55:29 -0800, "Bob Headrick" >>wrote: >>>"Highland Ham" wrote in message >>>news:07qdnVvtoq2Lkh7enZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@pipex.net... > >>>> Bob , Interesting info ; can you confirm that the 18 pcs 12V battery were >>>> in fact 9 strings of 2 batts in series (each string having a fuse ) >>>> providing 24 V ? or were all the 18 batts in parallel ? >>> >>>Actually they were all in series, making it a bit nerve-wracking to replace a >>>battery in the string. >> >>216 volt battery pack??? I don't think so. > > No, quite possible and makes some design sense - they would not need > a heavy output transformer in the unit boosting the voltage of a 36V > or 48V battery string after converting it to a sine wave AC, as 216V > would be right around the sine wave peak voltage of 120VAC. Just run > the battery DC through two sets of power transistors to let through a > reconstituted sine wave - one for the positive half of the output > waveform, the other negative. > > And it cuts the current the transistors have to pass. Bruce, this also sounds like a simple approach to generating 3 phase out of DC. Without the noise and weight of rotary phase converters. What are your thoughts on that? i Article: 95111 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Subject: Re: Free Old Tyme Ham Radio Calendar From: Larry References: Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:07:09 -0500 "Carl WA1KPD" wrote in news:v8ednUp9o8mMYB7eRVn- iw@comcast.com: > http://home.comcast.net/~chnord/wa1kpd.html Thanks, Carl. I emailed my ham radio buddies with your URL. Much appreciated by all. -- Larry Article: 95112 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <4384B3F5.B94109C3@upsdude.com> From: UPS DUDE Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <43822356.4A1E3D17@snet.net> <-vOdnTG5yJoo9h_eRVn-pg@comcast.com> <1132674796.572921.121460@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <2HHgf.8601$_a.5998@fe40.usenetserver.com> <1132685461.553016.209410@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:24:55 GMT hi very good point, many older units will not startup w/o running from a/c power first. Some newer APC models you can 'fool' it into startup by pressing the test button with it offline. Another factor, many of these older units like the Exide, Best, Liebert and Trip Lite are full sine wave units, a real bargian at today prices. There was an article in QST on adapting a smaller ups to run on an external battery. Very easy to to, just use good fuses MaxiFuse on the leads. Some of these newer units use microprocessors to run the thing so if the don't power on without batteries, they are useless except for the transformers. 73 dude > > > Beware that some UPSes refuse to start without A/C voltage > present. Kind of stupid, but it's reality. That could hinder their use > for emergency. Article: 95113 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <4384B4DF.51C9DF6C@upsdude.com> From: UPS DUDE Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11o592i478r2dc2@corp.supernews.com> <07qdnVvtoq2Lkh7enZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@pipex.net> <11o71e72oifva06@corp.supernews.com> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:28:48 GMT Good point bob, my liebert unit is full sine wave, from a supermarket pos system, just replaced all three 12v batteries with new ones, they are in series, 36 vdc. My work ups, exide 12kva unit used 60 batteries, three phased in series 240vdc dude. Bob Headrick wrote: > "Highland Ham" wrote in message > news:07qdnVvtoq2Lkh7enZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@pipex.net... > > > Bob , Interesting info ; can you confirm that the 18 pcs 12V battery were > > in fact 9 strings of 2 batts in series (each string having a fuse ) > > providing 24 V ? or were all the 18 batts in parallel ? > > Actually they were all in series, making it a bit nerve-wracking to replace a > battery in the string. > > - Bob W7OV Article: 95114 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <4384B5E3.4276A1D@upsdude.com> From: UPS DUDE Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11o592i478r2dc2@corp.supernews.com> <07qdnVvtoq2Lkh7enZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@pipex.net> <11o71e72oifva06@corp.supernews.com> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:33:08 GMT Yes, very possible ! Exide models as well at the other big boys Liebert etc. use this configuration. They use torrid transformers, very compact, the entire assy about the size of a loaf of white bread ! The ups w batteries about 36" cubed. 12 KVA 3 phased. dude > > > > >216 volt battery pack??? I don't think so. > > No, quite possible and makes some design sense - they would not need > a heavy output transformer in the unit boosting the voltage of a 36V > or 48V battery string after converting it to a sine wave AC, as 216V > would be right around the sine wave peak voltage of 120VAC. Just run > the battery DC through two sets of power transistors to let through a > reconstituted sine wave - one for the positive half of the output > waveform, the other negative. > > And it cuts the current the transistors have to pass. > > --<< Bruce >>-- > > -- > Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop > Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700 > 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545 > Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. Article: 95115 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <4384B639.57FC69CC@upsdude.com> From: UPS DUDE Subject: Re: Powerpole 180A Connectors References: <6mbng1199dj1p6ji91rf198rrnh99jrr00@4ax.com> <9hnpg15mc8el1keek6gfnbkvbu2in37bgs@4ax.com> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:34:34 GMT hi, on ebay do a search for anderson power* and you'll find them new in box or used pulls. dude Article: 95116 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Henry Kiefer" References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <11o82iimo8iv1d6@corp.supernews.com> <11o8uscr7q0n613@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 19:38:33 +0100 Message-ID: <4384bb8b$1$20850$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net> I don't know why "RST" is so aggressive but I would mention here, that the really funny part begins if you garbage in and get meaningful output! I like to smell the solder iron but it can be very interesting playing with Spice and see how changing values can and CAN BE NOT have a drastic result in the simulation. Sometimes changes are not so great in result and parts can be simpler made. e.g. changed from 1% to 5% or more. - Henry schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:mj19o1lo0l8dm3am94cpi4g7usa5uokvdk@4ax.com... > On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 06:23:58 -0800, Roy Lewallen > wrote: > Spice is a great tool. Like every tool one must know how it works, > how to use it to its fullest and knowing the tool can hurt you if > abused. When introduced to spice for the first time I was told > garbage in, garbage out and never assume that computer > crunched garbage is anything other than composted garbage. > What I've found is that Spice does allow you the luxury of saying > "what if" or "how does that affect xxx" even if you are not sure it's > real. > > Allison > KB1GMX Article: 95117 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Henry Kiefer" References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <4382ffe2$0$27884$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o6neic2a7gt64@corp.supernews.com> <11o7iv99ppgmsca@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 19:27:27 +0100 Message-ID: <4384bb8b$0$20850$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net> I know of a german power line corporation who develops Spice models for their power line test equipment. So it must be possible... - Henry "Joel Kolstad" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:11o7iv99ppgmsca@corp.supernews.com... > "Ken Smith" wrote in message > news:dm0h2k$8hi$4@blue.rahul.net... > > Heck, that can happen before you hit 1MHz. Check out the ESL and ESR of a > > 47,000uF capacitor some time. > > For some of the university work I've done, some of our reference papers are > from people modeling power lines as full-fledged transmission lines that are > many wavelengths long at 50Hz. No simple equivalent circuit model works for > them either! > > Article: 95118 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Henry Kiefer" References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <11o82iimo8iv1d6@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:55:44 +0100 Message-ID: <4384c9b8$0$27885$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> OK Jim - I simulated your question in a first trial. Here is the result: approx. 70MegHz resonance for 100pF, 30mOhm ESR and 5nH for the trace. Surely I would prefer smd chips having better results. BTW: I cannot understand why you're so aggressive and I would prefer that the thread will go in direction of my FIRST posting. I'm doing electronics since I was 12 years old and that is 25 years back. I have for example a patent application made and worked in the communication industry. So you can surely think I know what I'm doing. Thanks! - Henry "RST Engineering (jw)" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:11o82iimo8iv1d6@corp.supernews.com... > Agreed, John, 150 MHz is damned near DC for a lot of us, but as yet I have > no answer from the "spice" folks for the 1 nf capacitor question. A lot of > fancydancing but no answers. > > Jim Article: 95119 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Henry Kiefer" References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <4382ffe2$0$27884$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o6neic2a7gt64@corp.supernews.com> <11o7iq78697846d@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:57:37 +0100 Message-ID: <4384c9b8$1$27885$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> You can that simulate as a rc coupled line of a few steps. That works even for battery simulations. - Henry "Roy Lewallen" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:11o7iq78697846d@corp.supernews.com... > Ken Smith wrote: > > > > Heck, that can happen before you hit 1MHz. Check out the ESL and ESR of a > > 47,000uF capacitor some time. > > > > How about dielectric absorption ("soak")? I first encountered this in an > electrolytic capacitor being used for generating a sweep of about a > minute duration. The capacitor had to be kept shorted for several > seconds between sweeps in order for the charge to adequately empty, an > equivalent frequency of less than one Hz. > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 95120 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Henry Kiefer" References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <1132622501.128593.126840@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1132623435.194584.293170@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <4382ffe3$0$27884$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:59:10 +0100 Message-ID: <4384cae4$0$20859$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net> Thanks Allison! - Henry schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:a156o19olioeab1e5vbd18ejbcqmu6itdo@4ax.com... > On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:20:25 +0100, "Henry Kiefer" > wrote: > > >Thank Mark! > > > >MC and Maxim is not new to me. I thought on list of cheap, easy getting > >parts with reasonable performance. > > > >- Henry > > Minicircuits the MIMICs and mixers are of most interest and there > are inexpensive versions in the line up. What both offer is well > characterized RF 50 ohm port parts that behave well in circuits. > For example you can build a DBM, can you say for sure what the > characteristics will be from say 2-500mhz? > > Other useful parts from there are VCOs and RF transformers. > > > Allison > > > Article: 95121 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Rich the Newsgroup Wacko Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes Message-ID: References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 21:15:43 GMT On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 21:14:33 -0800, Too_Many_Tools wrote: > I am the "lucky" owner of a number of older UPSes. > > So what can a person build out of these? > > The batteries are for the most part dead but the remainder of the > components seem to be in good condition. > > Any suggestions? > Sell them to FedEx? ;-) -- Cheers! Rich ------ "Grain grows best in shit." -- U.K. LeGuin Article: 95122 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "RST Engineering \(jw\)" Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:05:42 -0800 Message-ID: <11o9tect0adji4b@corp.supernews.com> References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <11o82iimo8iv1d6@corp.supernews.com> <4384c9b8$0$27885$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> "Henry Kiefer" wrote in message news:4384c9b8$0$27885$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net... > OK Jim - > > I simulated your question in a first trial. Here is the result: > approx. 70MegHz resonance for 100pF, 30mOhm ESR and 5nH for the trace. > Surely I would prefer smd chips having better results. But that wasn't the question. THe question was to simulate a 1000 pf (1 nf) capacitor at 150 MHz. with an inch of lead or an inch of normal pcb trace and tell me what you get. > > BTW: I cannot understand why you're so aggressive and I would prefer that > the thread will go in direction of my FIRST posting. OK by me. I'm doing electronics > since I was 12 years old 8 years old. > and that is 25 years back. 54 years back. >I have for example a > patent application made I've got a few more. > and worked in the communication industry. 38 years straight now. So you can > surely think I know what I'm doing. Then answer the question. Jim Article: 95123 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Ignoramus22022 Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11o592i478r2dc2@corp.supernews.com> <07qdnVvtoq2Lkh7enZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@pipex.net> <11o71e72oifva06@corp.supernews.com> <4H0hf.10911$pF2.7827@fe48.usenetserver.com> Message-ID: <6T6hf.3$wx2.0@fe10.usenetserver.com> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 23:24:50 GMT On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 23:21:02 GMT, Bruce L Bergman wrote: > On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:22:24 GMT, Ignoramus22022 > wrote: >>On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:13:58 GMT, Bruce L Bergman wrote: >>> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote: >>>>On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:55:29 -0800, "Bob Headrick" wrote: >>>>>"Highland Ham" wrote: > >>>>>> Bob , Interesting info ; can you confirm that the 18 pcs 12V battery were >>>>>> in fact 9 strings of 2 batts in series (each string having a fuse ) >>>>>> providing 24 V ? or were all the 18 batts in parallel ? >>>>> >>>>>Actually they were all in series, making it a bit nerve-wracking to replace a >>>>>battery in the string. >>>> >>>>216 volt battery pack??? I don't think so. >>> >>> No, quite possible and makes some design sense - they would not need >>> a heavy output transformer in the unit boosting the voltage of a 36V >>> or 48V battery string after converting it to a sine wave AC, as 216V >>> would be right around the sine wave peak voltage of 120VAC. Just run >>> the battery DC through two sets of power transistors to let through a >>> reconstituted sine wave - one for the positive half of the output >>> waveform, the other negative. >>> >>> And it cuts the current the transistors have to pass. >> >>Bruce, this also sounds like a simple approach to generating 3 phase >>out of DC. Without the noise and weight of rotary phase >>converters. What are your thoughts on that? > > Quite Plausible, but when you add the caveat of reproducing 3-Phase > power the engineering just got really complicated, and more than > likely rather expensive. And I'm NOT a high-powered electronics drive > wonk by any means, the best I could do for fixing them is look for the > obviously crispy components and swap out the blown boards - or swap > the crispy parts and diodes that fail a VOM test and see if that does > it. > > With a single phase inverter, they're just doing a push-pull on one > 240V lead, relative to the center tapped neutral. Right. As you know, I recently made a DC -> AC inverter myself. > When you try 3-phase, there's going to be constant voltage, current > and capacitance interaction between all three sets of "hot AC" > switching transistors (or Triacs, or whatever). And the load's > resistive, inductive and capacitive components are all going to come > into play. Yep. > The resulting inverter would need to be built rather robust, and be > able to overcome drive issues with brute force where finesse won't do. > Compared to that, RPC's are the KISS method. And RPC's aren't a bad > way to go, if they are well balanced and have cooling air you can tuck > them away in a closet. You are right. I am going to redo my RPC into a 17.5 HP RPC. (two motors, 10 and 7.5 HP). Right now I have a 10 HP RPC. Someone offered me a Semikron 6 IGBT drive, with which I could make a 3 phase inverter. That sort of made me interested. i Article: 95124 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Bruce L. Bergman Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes Message-ID: References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11o592i478r2dc2@corp.supernews.com> <07qdnVvtoq2Lkh7enZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@pipex.net> <11o71e72oifva06@corp.supernews.com> <4H0hf.10911$pF2.7827@fe48.usenetserver.com> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 23:21:02 GMT On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:22:24 GMT, Ignoramus22022 wrote: >On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:13:58 GMT, Bruce L Bergman wrote: >> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote: >>>On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:55:29 -0800, "Bob Headrick" wrote: >>>>"Highland Ham" wrote: >>>>> Bob , Interesting info ; can you confirm that the 18 pcs 12V battery were >>>>> in fact 9 strings of 2 batts in series (each string having a fuse ) >>>>> providing 24 V ? or were all the 18 batts in parallel ? >>>> >>>>Actually they were all in series, making it a bit nerve-wracking to replace a >>>>battery in the string. >>> >>>216 volt battery pack??? I don't think so. >> >> No, quite possible and makes some design sense - they would not need >> a heavy output transformer in the unit boosting the voltage of a 36V >> or 48V battery string after converting it to a sine wave AC, as 216V >> would be right around the sine wave peak voltage of 120VAC. Just run >> the battery DC through two sets of power transistors to let through a >> reconstituted sine wave - one for the positive half of the output >> waveform, the other negative. >> >> And it cuts the current the transistors have to pass. > >Bruce, this also sounds like a simple approach to generating 3 phase >out of DC. Without the noise and weight of rotary phase >converters. What are your thoughts on that? Quite Plausible, but when you add the caveat of reproducing 3-Phase power the engineering just got really complicated, and more than likely rather expensive. And I'm NOT a high-powered electronics drive wonk by any means, the best I could do for fixing them is look for the obviously crispy components and swap out the blown boards - or swap the crispy parts and diodes that fail a VOM test and see if that does it. With a single phase inverter, they're just doing a push-pull on one 240V lead, relative to the center tapped neutral. When you try 3-phase, there's going to be constant voltage, current and capacitance interaction between all three sets of "hot AC" switching transistors (or Triacs, or whatever). And the load's resistive, inductive and capacitive components are all going to come into play. The resulting inverter would need to be built rather robust, and be able to overcome drive issues with brute force where finesse won't do. Compared to that, RPC's are the KISS method. And RPC's aren't a bad way to go, if they are well balanced and have cooling air you can tuck them away in a closet. --<< Bruce >>-- -- Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545 Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. Article: 95125 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <438511B7.A65CD29@snet.net> From: "Pete C." Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11o592i478r2dc2@corp.supernews.com> <07qdnVvtoq2Lkh7enZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@pipex.net> <11o71e72oifva06@corp.supernews.com> <4H0hf.10911$pF2.7827@fe48.usenetserver.com> <6T6hf.3$wx2.0@fe10.usenetserver.com> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 01:04:56 GMT Ignoramus22022 wrote: > > On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 23:21:02 GMT, Bruce L Bergman wrote: > > On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:22:24 GMT, Ignoramus22022 > > wrote: > >>On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:13:58 GMT, Bruce L Bergman wrote: > >>> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote: > >>>>On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:55:29 -0800, "Bob Headrick" wrote: > >>>>>"Highland Ham" wrote: > > > >>>>>> Bob , Interesting info ; can you confirm that the 18 pcs 12V battery were > >>>>>> in fact 9 strings of 2 batts in series (each string having a fuse ) > >>>>>> providing 24 V ? or were all the 18 batts in parallel ? > >>>>> > >>>>>Actually they were all in series, making it a bit nerve-wracking to replace a > >>>>>battery in the string. > >>>> > >>>>216 volt battery pack??? I don't think so. > >>> > >>> No, quite possible and makes some design sense - they would not need > >>> a heavy output transformer in the unit boosting the voltage of a 36V > >>> or 48V battery string after converting it to a sine wave AC, as 216V > >>> would be right around the sine wave peak voltage of 120VAC. Just run > >>> the battery DC through two sets of power transistors to let through a > >>> reconstituted sine wave - one for the positive half of the output > >>> waveform, the other negative. > >>> > >>> And it cuts the current the transistors have to pass. > >> > >>Bruce, this also sounds like a simple approach to generating 3 phase > >>out of DC. Without the noise and weight of rotary phase > >>converters. What are your thoughts on that? > > > > Quite Plausible, but when you add the caveat of reproducing 3-Phase > > power the engineering just got really complicated, and more than > > likely rather expensive. And I'm NOT a high-powered electronics drive > > wonk by any means, the best I could do for fixing them is look for the > > obviously crispy components and swap out the blown boards - or swap > > the crispy parts and diodes that fail a VOM test and see if that does > > it. > > > > With a single phase inverter, they're just doing a push-pull on one > > 240V lead, relative to the center tapped neutral. > > Right. As you know, I recently made a DC -> AC inverter myself. > > > When you try 3-phase, there's going to be constant voltage, current > > and capacitance interaction between all three sets of "hot AC" > > switching transistors (or Triacs, or whatever). And the load's > > resistive, inductive and capacitive components are all going to come > > into play. > > Yep. > > > The resulting inverter would need to be built rather robust, and be > > able to overcome drive issues with brute force where finesse won't do. > > Compared to that, RPC's are the KISS method. And RPC's aren't a bad > > way to go, if they are well balanced and have cooling air you can tuck > > them away in a closet. > > You are right. I am going to redo my RPC into a 17.5 HP RPC. (two > motors, 10 and 7.5 HP). Right now I have a 10 HP RPC. > > Someone offered me a Semikron 6 IGBT drive, with which I could make a > 3 phase inverter. That sort of made me interested. > > i Get your hands on a large, like 30kw or better, used as in "please take it out of here", three phase, online UPS from a computer room installation. As long as you can supply adequate power to the DC bus the inverter portion will happily generate your three phase power with no issues with designing and inverter or trying to synchronize three inverters or duty cycle problems. It's a DC - 3 phase AC continuous duty inverter, ready-to-go. Pete C. Article: 95126 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Ignoramus22022 Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11o592i478r2dc2@corp.supernews.com> <07qdnVvtoq2Lkh7enZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@pipex.net> <11o71e72oifva06@corp.supernews.com> <4H0hf.10911$pF2.7827@fe48.usenetserver.com> <6T6hf.3$wx2.0@fe10.usenetserver.com> <438511B7.A65CD29@snet.net> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 01:26:49 GMT On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 01:04:56 GMT, Pete C. wrote: > Ignoramus22022 wrote: >> >> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 23:21:02 GMT, Bruce L Bergman wrote: >> > On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:22:24 GMT, Ignoramus22022 >> > wrote: >> >>On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:13:58 GMT, Bruce L Bergman wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote: >> >>>>On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:55:29 -0800, "Bob Headrick" wrote: >> >>>>>"Highland Ham" wrote: >> > >> >>>>>> Bob , Interesting info ; can you confirm that the 18 pcs 12V battery were >> >>>>>> in fact 9 strings of 2 batts in series (each string having a fuse ) >> >>>>>> providing 24 V ? or were all the 18 batts in parallel ? >> >>>>> >> >>>>>Actually they were all in series, making it a bit nerve-wracking to replace a >> >>>>>battery in the string. >> >>>> >> >>>>216 volt battery pack??? I don't think so. >> >>> >> >>> No, quite possible and makes some design sense - they would not need >> >>> a heavy output transformer in the unit boosting the voltage of a 36V >> >>> or 48V battery string after converting it to a sine wave AC, as 216V >> >>> would be right around the sine wave peak voltage of 120VAC. Just run >> >>> the battery DC through two sets of power transistors to let through a >> >>> reconstituted sine wave - one for the positive half of the output >> >>> waveform, the other negative. >> >>> >> >>> And it cuts the current the transistors have to pass. >> >> >> >>Bruce, this also sounds like a simple approach to generating 3 phase >> >>out of DC. Without the noise and weight of rotary phase >> >>converters. What are your thoughts on that? >> > >> > Quite Plausible, but when you add the caveat of reproducing 3-Phase >> > power the engineering just got really complicated, and more than >> > likely rather expensive. And I'm NOT a high-powered electronics drive >> > wonk by any means, the best I could do for fixing them is look for the >> > obviously crispy components and swap out the blown boards - or swap >> > the crispy parts and diodes that fail a VOM test and see if that does >> > it. >> > >> > With a single phase inverter, they're just doing a push-pull on one >> > 240V lead, relative to the center tapped neutral. >> >> Right. As you know, I recently made a DC -> AC inverter myself. >> >> > When you try 3-phase, there's going to be constant voltage, current >> > and capacitance interaction between all three sets of "hot AC" >> > switching transistors (or Triacs, or whatever). And the load's >> > resistive, inductive and capacitive components are all going to come >> > into play. >> >> Yep. >> >> > The resulting inverter would need to be built rather robust, and be >> > able to overcome drive issues with brute force where finesse won't do. >> > Compared to that, RPC's are the KISS method. And RPC's aren't a bad >> > way to go, if they are well balanced and have cooling air you can tuck >> > them away in a closet. >> >> You are right. I am going to redo my RPC into a 17.5 HP RPC. (two >> motors, 10 and 7.5 HP). Right now I have a 10 HP RPC. >> >> Someone offered me a Semikron 6 IGBT drive, with which I could make a >> 3 phase inverter. That sort of made me interested. >> >> i > > Get your hands on a large, like 30kw or better, used as in "please take > it out of here", three phase, online UPS from a computer room > installation. As long as you can supply adequate power to the DC bus the > inverter portion will happily generate your three phase power with no > issues with designing and inverter or trying to synchronize three > inverters or duty cycle problems. It's a DC - 3 phase AC continuous duty > inverter, ready-to-go. A 30 kVa UPS would weigh approximately a ton. That's without batteries. It is beyond what I can handle. Since it needs a system for producing DC, it would be comparable to what the UPS already has. That means that I would have a monster that weighs a ton. I almost bought a 15 kVa UPS though. i Article: 95127 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Winfield Hill Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: 23 Nov 2005 17:49:31 -0800 Message-ID: References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <11o82iimo8iv1d6@corp.supernews.com> <4384c9b8$0$27885$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o9tect0adji4b@corp.supernews.com> jw\ wrote... > > The question was to simulate a 1000 pf (1 nf) capacitor at > 150 MHz. with an inch of lead or an inch of normal pcb trace > and tell me what you get. Such a question is stupid and incomplete. First of all, in cases where impedance matters, one wouldn't dare use an inch of lead at 150MHz, we'd cut that short, 0.1-inch max. And we certainly wouldn't use an inch of pcb trace unless it was field-controlled with a ground plane. This is true whether a 1nF cap is involved or not. If you were to insist on analyzing an inch of lead, we'd insist on knowing *all* about the ground scene. Since you aggressively put your question without any relevant information about what the ground is like, and where it is, the question is intrinsically-stupid and incomplete. Sorry, jw\, but that's the way it is. >> BTW: I cannot understand why you're so aggressive ... Indeed. > Then answer the question. Answered repeatedly already. -- Thanks, - Win Article: 95128 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:31:44 -0800 Message-ID: <11oaghi7ah9p06@corp.supernews.com> References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <11o82iimo8iv1d6@corp.supernews.com> <4384c9b8$0$27885$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o9tect0adji4b@corp.supernews.com> RST Engineering (jw) wrote: > . . . > Then answer the question. Did you find my answer to be inadequate or incorrect? If so, in what ways? If not, why do you need it to be answered again? Roy Lewallen, W7EL -- one of the "'spice' folks" Article: 95129 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <43855E01.48A94356@snet.net> From: "Pete C." Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11o592i478r2dc2@corp.supernews.com> <07qdnVvtoq2Lkh7enZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@pipex.net> <11o71e72oifva06@corp.supernews.com> <4H0hf.10911$pF2.7827@fe48.usenetserver.com> <6T6hf.3$wx2.0@fe10.usenetserver.com> <438511B7.A65CD29@snet.net> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 06:30:26 GMT Ignoramus22022 wrote: > > On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 01:04:56 GMT, Pete C. wrote: > > Ignoramus22022 wrote: > >> > >> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 23:21:02 GMT, Bruce L Bergman wrote: > >> > On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:22:24 GMT, Ignoramus22022 > >> > wrote: > >> >>On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:13:58 GMT, Bruce L Bergman wrote: > >> >>> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote: > >> >>>>On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:55:29 -0800, "Bob Headrick" wrote: > >> >>>>>"Highland Ham" wrote: > >> > > >> >>>>>> Bob , Interesting info ; can you confirm that the 18 pcs 12V battery were > >> >>>>>> in fact 9 strings of 2 batts in series (each string having a fuse ) > >> >>>>>> providing 24 V ? or were all the 18 batts in parallel ? > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>Actually they were all in series, making it a bit nerve-wracking to replace a > >> >>>>>battery in the string. > >> >>>> > >> >>>>216 volt battery pack??? I don't think so. > >> >>> > >> >>> No, quite possible and makes some design sense - they would not need > >> >>> a heavy output transformer in the unit boosting the voltage of a 36V > >> >>> or 48V battery string after converting it to a sine wave AC, as 216V > >> >>> would be right around the sine wave peak voltage of 120VAC. Just run > >> >>> the battery DC through two sets of power transistors to let through a > >> >>> reconstituted sine wave - one for the positive half of the output > >> >>> waveform, the other negative. > >> >>> > >> >>> And it cuts the current the transistors have to pass. > >> >> > >> >>Bruce, this also sounds like a simple approach to generating 3 phase > >> >>out of DC. Without the noise and weight of rotary phase > >> >>converters. What are your thoughts on that? > >> > > >> > Quite Plausible, but when you add the caveat of reproducing 3-Phase > >> > power the engineering just got really complicated, and more than > >> > likely rather expensive. And I'm NOT a high-powered electronics drive > >> > wonk by any means, the best I could do for fixing them is look for the > >> > obviously crispy components and swap out the blown boards - or swap > >> > the crispy parts and diodes that fail a VOM test and see if that does > >> > it. > >> > > >> > With a single phase inverter, they're just doing a push-pull on one > >> > 240V lead, relative to the center tapped neutral. > >> > >> Right. As you know, I recently made a DC -> AC inverter myself. > >> > >> > When you try 3-phase, there's going to be constant voltage, current > >> > and capacitance interaction between all three sets of "hot AC" > >> > switching transistors (or Triacs, or whatever). And the load's > >> > resistive, inductive and capacitive components are all going to come > >> > into play. > >> > >> Yep. > >> > >> > The resulting inverter would need to be built rather robust, and be > >> > able to overcome drive issues with brute force where finesse won't do. > >> > Compared to that, RPC's are the KISS method. And RPC's aren't a bad > >> > way to go, if they are well balanced and have cooling air you can tuck > >> > them away in a closet. > >> > >> You are right. I am going to redo my RPC into a 17.5 HP RPC. (two > >> motors, 10 and 7.5 HP). Right now I have a 10 HP RPC. > >> > >> Someone offered me a Semikron 6 IGBT drive, with which I could make a > >> 3 phase inverter. That sort of made me interested. > >> > >> i > > > > Get your hands on a large, like 30kw or better, used as in "please take > > it out of here", three phase, online UPS from a computer room > > installation. As long as you can supply adequate power to the DC bus the > > inverter portion will happily generate your three phase power with no > > issues with designing and inverter or trying to synchronize three > > inverters or duty cycle problems. It's a DC - 3 phase AC continuous duty > > inverter, ready-to-go. > > A 30 kVa UPS would weigh approximately a ton. That's without > batteries. It is beyond what I can handle. No way, I put in a 30kw 3 phase UPS (Best Unity/1) and it was close to a ton with batteries. Without batteries (when I moved it across a raised floor with a pallet jack) it was far under a ton. > > Since it needs a system for producing DC, it would be comparable to > what the UPS already has. It has a system for producing DC, it's just setup for three phase input. Depending on how it is configured it could be quite easy to rework the input section for single phase. The more modular the design the better and you might get lucky and find three discrete DC supplies, one fed >from each phase, that couldn't care less if they were actually 120 degrees apart. > > That means that I would have a monster that weighs a ton. That would mean you have all the clean sine wave three phase power your shop could need, uninterruptable no less, and heat for the winter. > > I almost bought a 15 kVa UPS though. > > i The building I used to work in had about six monster UPSes in the basement, each feeding a 600A 208/120V 3 phase buss duct running up through the building to multiple PDUs. They had the nice 5 gal size glass cased batteries in the strings. Also had five 800KW diesel generators with paralleling switch gear and 40,000 gal of fuel supply. Redundant utility feeds as well. Place would have made a nice house if it was in a better location :) Pete C. Article: 95130 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Subject: Re: Simple triggered sweep. Date: 24 Nov 2005 06:58:27 GMT Message-ID: References: (nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net) writes: > On 22 Nov 2005 21:41:19 GMT, novatech@eskimo.com (Steven Swift) wrote: > >>Greetings. >> >>A short while ago, I posted a request for links to simple triggered >>sweeps for older recurrent timebase oscilloscopes. I spent a fair >>amount of time looking in old magazines and circuit handbooks, but >>didn't find what I thought I was looking for. >> >>So I decided to cobble-up a homebrew of my own. This circuit probably >>has been done before, but it met my criterion of being really simple. >>I used already on-hand parts, so the design is far from optimum. It >>works fine on an Eico 460 up to about 1MHz. No attempt was made to make >>a calibrated sweep. You could use a 5v rail and an HC4538 to make a >>nice high speed triggered sweep. >> >>Have a look at: >> >>http://novatech-instr.com/Fun/trig.pdf >> >>Thank you to all of you who sent me emails and posted comments on these >>boards. >> >>Steve. >>Seattle,WA. > > Pretty good. Did a similar thing using 3 555s. One was used as a > threshold detector, one for the Onshot (with a FET constant current > source) and one for the retrigger holdoff oneshot. Worked to well > to beyond the 5mhz scope it was used with. > > Allison > And as I pointed out in the previous thread, that wave thirty years ago of adding triggered sweep to older scopes did all use 555s for the ramp generator. I cleared off the scanner, and http://www.cam.org/~blackm00/ramp.jpg is the scan out of Howard Berlin's "The 555 Timer Applications Sourcebook with Experiments" from 1976. The actual circuit was originally in Electronics magazine for October 11, 1973, which I likely do have (at least the part with the circuit) somewhere but can't be bothered looking. And as I said, this basic circuit did seem to be the basis of all those "add triggered sweep to your oscilliscope" articles >from thirty years ago. As I recall, they were all basically like this one. Michael VE2BVW Article: 95131 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Henry Kiefer" References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <11o82iimo8iv1d6@corp.supernews.com> <4384c9b8$0$27885$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o9tect0adji4b@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 08:40:29 +0100 Message-ID: <43856ed5$0$27882$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> "RST Engineering (jw)" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:11o9tect0adji4b@corp.supernews.com... > > I simulated your question in a first trial. Here is the result: > > approx. 70MegHz resonance for 100pF, 30mOhm ESR and 5nH for the trace. > > Surely I would prefer smd chips having better results. > > But that wasn't the question. THe question was to simulate a 1000 pf (1 nf) > capacitor at 150 MHz. with an inch of lead or an inch of normal pcb trace > and tell me what you get. > Then answer the question. OK - playing on: I got nothing. There is no power supply. No antenna interaction. No thermal noise source. You circuit is bullshit! Maybe we have a communication problem and should drink a beer?? - Henry Article: 95132 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Henry Kiefer" Subject: Unusual functions of cheap parts Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:40:27 +0100 Message-ID: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Hi all - After my first thread going from "standard" cheap parts for up to vhf frequency to a discussion about the usefulness of Spice simulator...... I try it another time hopefully get attention of frustrated co-readers: For example the rechtifier diode 1N4007 can be used as a rf switching diode, for example as rx/tx-switch. This is because it is a pin structure diode. This type is cheap and you can get it almost everywhere. It shows good performance for the price. Surely for high-end you should do it with another type tuned to the application it is made for. But anyway it works in some circuits. Do you know of other interesting devices or circuits good for misuse? Best regards - Henry Article: 95133 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <4385bb03@news1.ethz.ch> From: Stefan Heimers Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 14:07:15 +0100 References: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Henry Kiefer wrote: > > Do you know of other interesting devices or circuits good for misuse? I never tried it myself, but I heard that some people abused opened memory chips as cameras, back when CCD camera chips were too expensive for hobbyists. http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2004-May/042581.html http://groups.google.com/group/comp.robotics.misc/browse_thread/thread/652cc4b0e1ccee57/f84b0f2d5c0b6da7?lnk=st&q=opened+RAM+chips+used+as+camera&rnum=6#f84b0f2d5c0b6da7 Article: 95134 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <4385DFF2.843F1DAA@nosapam.com> From: upsDUDE Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11o592i478r2dc2@corp.supernews.com> <07qdnVvtoq2Lkh7enZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@pipex.net> <11o71e72oifva06@corp.supernews.com> <4H0hf.10911$pF2.7827@fe48.usenetserver.com> <6T6hf.3$wx2.0@fe10.usenetserver.com> <438511B7.A65CD29@snet.net> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 15:44:52 GMT The Exide we have is configurable on output via software, you can setup the output via the control panel or use a laptop via rs232 and term pgm. the 12kva unit we have (5 years old) is under 200 lbs w/o batteries, uses 60 12v 7ah std cells. Article: 95135 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "R.Freitag" Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 19:00:37 +0100 Message-ID: References: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Henry Kiefer wrote: [...] > Do you know of other interesting devices or circuits good for misuse? Take away the hat of a 2N3055 and use it as a light sensor (sensitive). Robert > > Best regards - > Henry -- 'Vom Standpunkt eines Beamtenrechtlers aus betrachtet ist der Tod die schärfstwirkenste aller bekannten, langfristig wirkenden Formen der vollständigen Dienstunfähigkeit.' aus: Kommentar zum Beamtenrecht. Article: 95136 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Jorgen Lund-Nielsen Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 18:30:06 +0100 Message-ID: References: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Henry Kiefer wrote: > Hi all - > > After my first thread going from "standard" cheap parts for up to vhf > frequency to a discussion about the usefulness of Spice simulator...... I > try it another time hopefully get attention of frustrated co-readers: > > For example the rechtifier diode 1N4007 can be used as a rf switching diode, > for example as rx/tx-switch. This is because it is a pin structure diode. > This type is cheap and you can get it almost everywhere. It shows good > performance for the price. Surely for high-end you should do it with another > type tuned to the application it is made for. But anyway it works in some > circuits. > > Do you know of other interesting devices or circuits good for misuse? > > Best regards - > Henry Tuner Switching Diodes like the european BA244 (NOT PIN-Diodes!) work well as medium fast Step Recovery Diodes. Jorgen Article: 95137 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "RST Engineering \(jw\)" Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:55:13 -0800 Message-ID: <11obvka78059g2b@corp.supernews.com> References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <11o82iimo8iv1d6@corp.supernews.com> <4384c9b8$0$27885$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o9tect0adji4b@corp.supernews.com> "Winfield Hill" wrote in message news:dm367b01hj7@drn.newsguy.com... > jw\ wrote... >> >> The question was to simulate a 1000 pf (1 nf) capacitor at >> 150 MHz. with an inch of lead or an inch of normal pcb trace >> and tell me what you get. > > Such a question is stupid and incomplete. No, Win, the question is well formed and quite complete. Sleep off the ten shots of Old Rammycackle and let's have the discussion when you are sober. First of all, in > cases where impedance matters, one wouldn't dare use an inch > of lead at 150MHz, we'd cut that short, 0.1-inch max. No, Win, neither you nor I would do such a thing. But somebody who is (as the OP posted) new to the RF world would do so without a second thought. You and I have been playing this game all our lives and take self-resonance into account without even thinking about it. However, a student new to the field (as my freshman engineering students are) makes the mistake repeatedly, even when using a decent text called ... um ... The Art Of Something Or Other. When their RF amplifier starts squeeging or motorboating, I tell them that the power supply isn't bypassed well enough, and I'll be damned if the first thing they do is put a BIGGER capacitor on the supply line. I'll then ask them what they think the bypass impedance is and get the stock answer "1/(2*pi*f*c)". Hm, says I, how about the three inches of wire between the capacitor and the supply line. Oh, says them, that's a direct short. Straight wire doesn't have a reactive component. Hm, says I, let's see what the network analyzer says about that. Hm, says student, it says 60 nanohenries. How can that be? Mm, 20 nanohenries per inch for #20 wire sounds about right, so what does that series circuit look like? Hm. Inductive at the frequency of interest. Now, grasshopper, tell me about self-resonance of capacitors with long leads. And > we certainly wouldn't use an inch of pcb trace unless it was > field-controlled with a ground plane. That's not always an option in commercial gear, Win. This is true whether a > 1nF cap is involved or not. If you were to insist on analyzing > an inch of lead, we'd insist on knowing *all* about the ground > scene. Since you aggressively put your question without any > relevant information about what the ground is like, and where > it is, the question is intrinsically-stupid and incomplete. > If I didn't say what the ground is, then we can assume that I formulated the question without ground plane. 99% of the commercial products run this way. > Sorry, jw\, but that's the way it is. Sorry, Win, that's NOT the real world. Jim Article: 95138 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: John Larkin Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 10:04:31 -0800 Message-ID: References: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:40:27 +0100, "Henry Kiefer" wrote: >Hi all - > >After my first thread going from "standard" cheap parts for up to vhf >frequency to a discussion about the usefulness of Spice simulator...... I >try it another time hopefully get attention of frustrated co-readers: > >For example the rechtifier diode 1N4007 can be used as a rf switching diode, >for example as rx/tx-switch. This is because it is a pin structure diode. >This type is cheap and you can get it almost everywhere. It shows good >performance for the price. Surely for high-end you should do it with another >type tuned to the application it is made for. But anyway it works in some >circuits. > >Do you know of other interesting devices or circuits good for misuse? > >Best regards - >Henry > A 1N4007 can also be used as a drift step-recovery diode and as a plasma avalanche diode. Together, two can generate a kilovolt edge with a 100 ps risetime. GAASfets make good fast analog switches; they behave pretty much like jfets. Wide-open LDO regulators make nice resettable fuses. Ferrite beads do all sorts of interesting stuff. Power mosfets make good heaters, and TO-220 bipolar transistors make nice temperature sensors. LVDS line receivers are surprisingly good comparators, and *fast* I could go on... John Article: 95139 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: John Larkin Subject: Re: "Standard parts" for rf amps? Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 10:20:54 -0800 Message-ID: References: <438262c8$0$27904$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o4q89q7708kcd@corp.supernews.com> <11o5jngnvqrqmcb@corp.supernews.com> <11o82iimo8iv1d6@corp.supernews.com> <4384c9b8$0$27885$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <11o9tect0adji4b@corp.supernews.com> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:05:42 -0800, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" wrote: > >"Henry Kiefer" wrote in message >news:4384c9b8$0$27885$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net... >> OK Jim - >> >> I simulated your question in a first trial. Here is the result: >> approx. 70MegHz resonance for 100pF, 30mOhm ESR and 5nH for the trace. >> Surely I would prefer smd chips having better results. > >But that wasn't the question. THe question was to simulate a 1000 pf (1 nf) >capacitor at 150 MHz. with an inch of lead or an inch of normal pcb trace >and tell me what you get. > > The question is unclear. Any component must have a return path, either when you measure it or when you use it in a circuit. The entire loop determines the "lead" inductance. If I solder an axial cap, with 1" of extra leads, onto the end of a hunk of coax, and analyze it with a VNA or TDR, I can bend the cap leads into various fat/flat loops and push the L all over the place. John Article: 95140 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "CA" References: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts Message-ID: Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 18:20:57 GMT >Do you know of other interesting devices or circuits good for misuse? The LM317 as a radio transmitter http://web.telia.com/~u85920178/tx/317-tx.htm Article: 95141 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: John Larkin Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 10:22:36 -0800 Message-ID: <361co1pavjfi56f0kmrm8phrtb64g2kmvo@4ax.com> References: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 18:30:06 +0100, Jorgen Lund-Nielsen wrote: >Henry Kiefer wrote: >> Hi all - >> >> After my first thread going from "standard" cheap parts for up to vhf >> frequency to a discussion about the usefulness of Spice simulator...... I >> try it another time hopefully get attention of frustrated co-readers: >> >> For example the rechtifier diode 1N4007 can be used as a rf switching diode, >> for example as rx/tx-switch. This is because it is a pin structure diode. >> This type is cheap and you can get it almost everywhere. It shows good >> performance for the price. Surely for high-end you should do it with another >> type tuned to the application it is made for. But anyway it works in some >> circuits. >> >> Do you know of other interesting devices or circuits good for misuse? >> >> Best regards - >> Henry > >Tuner Switching Diodes like the european BA244 (NOT PIN-Diodes!) work >well as medium fast Step Recovery Diodes. > >Jorgen I know a guy who uses surface-mount resistors as explosive detonators. John Article: 95142 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Jim Thompson Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts Message-ID: References: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 12:11:27 -0700 On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:40:27 +0100, "Henry Kiefer" wrote: >Hi all - > >After my first thread going from "standard" cheap parts for up to vhf >frequency to a discussion about the usefulness of Spice simulator...... I >try it another time hopefully get attention of frustrated co-readers: > >For example the rechtifier diode 1N4007 can be used as a rf switching diode, >for example as rx/tx-switch. This is because it is a pin structure diode. [snip] > >Best regards - >Henry > That's an interesting use of the 1N4007. I've not tried that, what kind of off capacitance do you get? ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. Article: 95143 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: John Larkin Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 11:42:23 -0800 Message-ID: References: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 18:20:57 GMT, "CA" wrote: >>Do you know of other interesting devices or circuits good for misuse? > >The LM317 as a radio transmitter > >http://web.telia.com/~u85920178/tx/317-tx.htm > Cool. 3T regulators, 317 and LM1117 types, can be neat power amps, for driving unipolar loads like motors and such. Sort of a follower with a largish offset. Hmmm, an LM1117 followed by a monster darlington becomes a super-follower with roughly zero offset. John Article: 95144 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: John Larkin Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 11:44:51 -0800 Message-ID: <9u5co19jkjoep5n68ddmk71vh709v2eatk@4ax.com> References: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 18:30:06 +0100, Jorgen Lund-Nielsen wrote: >Henry Kiefer wrote: >> Hi all - >> >> After my first thread going from "standard" cheap parts for up to vhf >> frequency to a discussion about the usefulness of Spice simulator...... I >> try it another time hopefully get attention of frustrated co-readers: >> >> For example the rechtifier diode 1N4007 can be used as a rf switching diode, >> for example as rx/tx-switch. This is because it is a pin structure diode. >> This type is cheap and you can get it almost everywhere. It shows good >> performance for the price. Surely for high-end you should do it with another >> type tuned to the application it is made for. But anyway it works in some >> circuits. >> >> Do you know of other interesting devices or circuits good for misuse? >> >> Best regards - >> Henry > >Tuner Switching Diodes like the european BA244 (NOT PIN-Diodes!) work >well as medium fast Step Recovery Diodes. > Tell me about it. I tried some pins to see if they would snap, and they turn out to have incredibly mushy reverse recovery, Slop Recovery Diodes. I'll have to try the varicaps. John Article: 95145 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Phil Hobbs Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 14:47:37 -0500 Message-ID: <438618D9.4080403@us.ibm.com> References: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> John Larkin wrote: > A 1N4007 can also be used as a drift step-recovery diode and as a > plasma avalanche diode. Together, two can generate a kilovolt edge > with a 100 ps risetime. Okay, so I'm intrigued already. I have all the hardware available--two 1N4007s and a 3 kV adjustable power supply! How do I build one? Cheers, Phil Hobbs Article: 95146 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Boris Mohar Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts Message-ID: <345co1d2ab1b0lo01oofsa6cgaannlm08p@4ax.com> References: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 14:33:39 -0500 Cadmium sulphide ( CdS ) LDR as a Beta radiation detector. Not sensitive to Gamma radiation which can be an advantage because it will detect Beta in presence of Gamma. You have to paint it black. Horrible temperature sensitivity but you can use another CdS as reference. Regards, Boris Mohar Got Knock? - see: Viatrack Printed Circuit Designs (among other things) http://www.viatrack.ca void _-void-_ in the obvious place Article: 95147 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net Subject: Re: Simple triggered sweep. Message-ID: References: Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 19:55:28 GMT On 24 Nov 2005 06:58:27 GMT, et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) wrote: > (nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net) writes: >> On 22 Nov 2005 21:41:19 GMT, novatech@eskimo.com (Steven Swift) wrote: >> >> Pretty good. Did a similar thing using 3 555s. One was used as a >> threshold detector, one for the Onshot (with a FET constant current >> source) and one for the retrigger holdoff oneshot. Worked to well >> to beyond the 5mhz scope it was used with. >> >> Allison >> >And as I pointed out in the previous thread, that wave thirty years >ago of adding triggered sweep to older scopes did all use 555s for >the ramp generator. > >I cleared off the scanner, and > http://www.cam.org/~blackm00/ramp.jpg >is the scan out of Howard Berlin's "The 555 Timer Applications Sourcebook >with Experiments" from 1976. The actual circuit was originally in Electronics >magazine for October 11, 1973, which I likely do have (at least >the part with the circuit) somewhere but can't be bothered looking. > >And as I said, this basic circuit did seem to be the basis of >all those "add triggered sweep to your oscilliscope" articles >from thirty years ago. As I recall, they were all basically like >this one. > > Michael VE2BVW It was 1972 when I first did the 555 thing. The basic circuit was greatly improved over the one shown in the URL. But the idea was the same. The 555 is an interesting chip and does real well for things like threshold detection and any form of timing or timing related functions. Allison Article: 95148 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts Message-ID: <0t6co11edadugadvv1i9mhmq2v00uaknfh@4ax.com> References: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 20:07:35 GMT On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:40:27 +0100, "Henry Kiefer" wrote: >Hi all - > >After my first thread going from "standard" cheap parts for up to vhf >frequency to a discussion about the usefulness of Spice simulator...... I >try it another time hopefully get attention of frustrated co-readers: > >For example the rechtifier diode 1N4007 can be used as a rf switching diode, >for example as rx/tx-switch. This is because it is a pin structure diode. >This type is cheap and you can get it almost everywhere. It shows good >performance for the price. Surely for high-end you should do it with another >type tuned to the application it is made for. But anyway it works in some >circuits. > >Do you know of other interesting devices or circuits good for misuse? > >Best regards - >Henry 1n4007 as varactor (freq multiplier) and also Varicap. You already mentioned RX/TX swich. Also in PIN attenuator circuits. Glass cased rectifiers (1n4007 in glass rather than epoxy) as photodiode. 1n914 as 2ghz multipler (as varactor) to 100mw output. 1n914/4148 as silicon temperature sensor. (forward bias) Base emitter of NPN silicon transistors as Zeners (5-8Vrange). Makes a decent noise diode that way too. Base collector of NPN si transistor as Varicap Collector emitter of silicon transistors reverse biased as negative resistance device. Open GE and SI transistors are sensitive photodetectors. Opened SCRs as photoswitches. Allison Article: 95149 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: John Larkin Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 12:27:40 -0800 Message-ID: References: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <438618D9.4080403@us.ibm.com> On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 14:47:37 -0500, Phil Hobbs wrote: >John Larkin wrote: > >> A 1N4007 can also be used as a drift step-recovery diode and as a >> plasma avalanche diode. Together, two can generate a kilovolt edge >> with a 100 ps risetime. > >Okay, so I'm intrigued already. I have all the hardware available--two >1N4007s and a 3 kV adjustable power supply! How do I build one? > >Cheers, > >Phil Hobbs Google "Grekhov diode." A lot of the papers are for members only, but this one gives the general idea: http://www.ece.jhu.edu/~pps/ECE777/ADMAT/CircDev/Pulse-GENERATORS-SHAPERS/sub-nano-pulse1.pdf Grekhov discovered both the DSRD and the plasma avalanche effects in cheap power diodes. The core of the DSRD effect is that, if a PIN diode is forward biased for not too many nanoseconds, the carriers don't have time to float all around the place so the charge profile is good for a nice reverse snap. HP did the same thing in their classic 1430 12-GHz sampling head, circa 1965 roughly. This box used the DSRD effect, in a semiconductor that one would not expect to be used in an application like this... http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/T220DS.html We bias the snap diode +48 volts (yes, forward direction) for about 80 ns before we turn the drive around for the snap. It was originally designed for use in a LEAP atom probe. John Article: 95150 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 22:02:37 +0100 From: Robert Obermayer Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts References: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Message-ID: <43862a64$0$41138$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Hi, 2N3055: one-time trigger diode with abt. 160v triggering voltage [had some ones of unknown state left from a PSU that blew one of 5 transistors, replaced them with MJ15003] various, sometimes expensive components: firecrackers, smoke bombs, lamps (most of the time unintended ;) ) old EPROMs: Lamp.Find some pins with low resistance and apply .5-2A. the IC/transistor that was broken and took you some hours to find the trouble: Get 1-5 large caps (like 12 000µF 350V), charge them, and apply the voltage to the part with a very large relay. LOUD! Article: 95151 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 15:13:02 -0800 Message-ID: <11oci80ha32mv77@corp.supernews.com> References: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Zener diodes work fine as varicaps, at least at HF. The lower the zener voltage and higher the power dissipation rating, the higher the C. As someone else mentioned, transistor emitter-base junctions can be used as either zeners (typical zener voltage around 5 volts) or varicaps. A zener can be used as a broadband noise source. I've had the best luck with zeners of 10 - 15 volt breakdown, with around 100 uA current. Some are noisier than others, and they often have a critical current where the noise is the greatest. Tektronix used selected transistors to generate high voltage (~100 volts) fast steps (~100 ps rise time if I recall correctly) by avalanching the collector. Some fraction of some common transistor types worked satisfactorily in this application. 1N914 type diodes can be used as step recovery diodes to generate a step with about a ns risetime -- maybe faster with a chip component and some care. This could be the basis of a broadband harmonic generator. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 95152 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts Date: 24 Nov 2005 23:49:15 GMT Message-ID: References: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <0t6co11edadugadvv1i9mhmq2v00uaknfh@4ax.com> (nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net) writes: > 1n4007 as varactor (freq multiplier) and also Varicap. That's not really a new thing, or specific to the 1N4007. Sam Harris, in that first article about parametric amplifiers in CQ circa 1958, goes into detail of what's required, and then practically leaves the issue of the varactor to the end. At the time, they were new, likely expensive, and not easy to get. Sam had it easy, he worked at Microwave Associates at the time. So then towards the end of the article where he attends to the issue of the varactor, he basically says use whatever's available, try things, and at least practice with those other devices until you get good at it, at which point it's time for the "real thing". I have quoted that bit in the past, but I don't know where I've put the article to get the exact wording. And ever since then, influenced by his words or maybe independent thought, the magazines have been full of mention of using whatever's available as a varactor, the results varying with the diode (or junction, since some have used part of a transistor) and of course the application. And of course, there was one article where the author mentioned a lot of hum in his six meter synthesizer that used something like a 1N914 for the varactor. He then realizes that the problem was the light of a nearby lamp getting to the actual diode theough the glass case of the diode, and hence modulating the VCO that way. Michael VE2BVW Article: 95153 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts From: Jon Yaeger Message-ID: References: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <43862a64$0$41138$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 18:49:24 -0500 Take apart a couple of D cell carbon-zinc batteries. Wash off the carbon rods. Put each in a wooden clothes pin and connect the attached ends to the mains voltage (US customers only, please). Tap the free ends of the rods together. Move them apart as necessary. Very bright! Much brighter than you are. Jon Article: 95154 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Message-ID: <43865425.9AF462C3@snet.net> From: "Pete C." Subject: Re: Uses for Old UPSes References: <1132550073.630433.132830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <43822356.4A1E3D17@snet.net> <-vOdnTG5yJoo9h_eRVn-pg@comcast.com> <2oydnVhXno09mh7enZ2dnUVZ8qSdnZ2d@pipex.net> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 00:00:46 GMT RDF wrote: > > Thanks for the input! I'll get out the Fluke and download the .PDF and see > what I can find before I burn the place down :) I was sort of hoping to be > able to replace the stock batteries but they are so insanely expensive, > hacking the box for batteries I have no use for (Still in the plastic wrap > and caps on. got them in a barter) Get this- Mercedes wanted $430.00 to > replace my battery for P/M- Yea right, my car now has a Optima yellow in the > trunk and why a factory (much smaller and lighter too) battery would be junk > after two years blows my mind. > > Thanks for the info and help! > > Rob Fraser > > Fraser Competition Engines > Chicago, IL. The VP of my department found the same thing with the battery in his BMW. He decided that the zillion dollar original was BS so I sent him to my favorite battery distributor for an Optima and helped him retrofit the hold down. Pete C. Article: 95155 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: ehsjr Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts References: <4385b3b1$1$27887$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 00:40:17 GMT Henry Kiefer wrote: > Hi all - > > After my first thread going from "standard" cheap parts for up to vhf > frequency to a discussion about the usefulness of Spice simulator...... I > try it another time hopefully get attention of frustrated co-readers: > > For example the rechtifier diode 1N4007 can be used as a rf switching diode, > for example as rx/tx-switch. This is because it is a pin structure diode. > This type is cheap and you can get it almost everywhere. It shows good > performance for the price. Surely for high-end you should do it with another > type tuned to the application it is made for. But anyway it works in some > circuits. > > Do you know of other interesting devices or circuits good for misuse? > > Best regards - > Henry > > An LED as a shunt regulator. Also, as a varicap. Ed Article: 95156 of rec.radio.amateur.homebrew From: "Asimov" Subject: Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts Message-ID: References: Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 05:11:07 GMT "ehsjr" bravely wrote to "All" (25 Nov 05 00:40:17) --- on the heady topic of "Re: Unusual functions of cheap parts" eh> From: ehsjr eh> rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:89241 sci.electronics.components:102765 eh> sci.electronics.design:525790 eh> Henry Kiefer wrote: > Hi all - > > After my first thread going from "standard" cheap parts for up to vhf > frequency to a discussion about the usefulness of Spice simulator...... I > try it another time hopefully get attention of frustrated co-readers: > > For example the rechtifier diode 1N4007 can be used as a rf switching diode, > for example as rx/tx-switch. This is because it is a pin structure diode. > This type is cheap and you can get it almost everywhere. It shows good > performance for the price. Surely for high-end you should do it with another > type tuned to the application it is made for. But anyway it works in some > circuits. > > Do you know of other interesting devices or circuits good for misuse? > > Best regards - > Henry eh> An LED as a shunt regulator. Also, as a varicap. eh> Ed A TL431 precision bandgap voltage reference IC as a 400mW output phono amplifier. It's in the application notes! A*s*i*m*o*v ... Marketing success has little to do with technical merit.