From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:23:25 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1ED4903B for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZdu011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0306C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 190246 Lines: 4170 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 21:43:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: migratory beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim said: I could not imagine being "migratory" for even a single season. For a inside look at the little-known world of migratory beekeeping may I suggest the book: "Following The Bloom" Across America with the Migratory Beekeepers by Douglas Whynott.(copyright 1991) The book is available from many bee supply houses. Having seen many of the things Douglass saw in his time with the migratory beekeepers (many friends of mine) I can vouch for correctness. A trip to a public library might be the only way to read the next article unless you collect old "National Geographic" magazines. "U.S. beekeepers : Hives for hire" can be found in vol. 183, no.5 (May 1993). Excellent article and very correct by Alan Mairson. Being a friend of Douglass I will quote a bit from his book after his time with the migratory beekeepers and looking at the one hive he keeps in his back yard. >From page 206 of "Following the bloom" by Douglass Whynott: "I like to watch them, most of all, and now when I see them making their sweeping arcs, when they glide down among the crowds of bees at the hive entrance , I just watch. Contradiction has followed expansion,and I sometimes think of a zen saying; at first mountains were mountains,AND THEN THE MOUNTAINS WERE NOT MOUNTAINS,BUT SOME OTHER THING; now the mountains are mountains again" Go out and buy the book to keep the best and most current book about migratory beekeeping around for generations. Old beekeeping books are NEVER tossed away but passed on. I was given and old beekeeping book by a book collector awhile back because the book was missing the front cover. The inside is in perfect condition and I treasure the book and have made a cover. The book is the ABC and XYZ copyright 1919. can members of BEE_L shed light on the original owner of the book? Front inside page: "To my dear husband with much love, Dr. Bernard J. Bohn, From your loving wife, Ethel E. Bohn, Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 00:20:25 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Eastern Apicultural Society Deadline Allen mused: > When I look over the short course program, I can't figure out, from the > web pages, exactly what is being offered and by whom, other than in very > general terms, and I see nothing about Wednesday morning other than " > Combined Session - Topics of interest to all beekeepers". I think that the problem here is that the web pages were created far in advance of the "firming up" of exactly who would be doing exactly what in the short courses, and have not been updated with specifics. Maybe EAS needs a webmaster who can update their web pages daily. Know anyone who updates a website daily? :) > I was therefore very interested in the campus "daily use fee". This is a mechanism that allows the school to assure that they make a consistent profit per attendee, even if the attendee chooses to not stay on campus. Yes, it is a rip-off. The days of EAS riding free at land-grant universities are long gone. All schools are strapped for cash, and we are a source of easy revenue. I stayed "on campus" at both EAS 2000 (Maryland) and EAS 2002 (NY), and in both cases I was surprised at just how nice the dorms were. If the dorms were so nice back when I went to college, I would not have lived off-campus. > The AHPA always has lots of free parking for trucks Well, this is not an AHPA or an ABF meeting. Not even close. EAS is not so much about the BUSINESS of beekeeping as it is about beekeeping for the pure joy of it. There will be no hand-wringing over honey prices, no fists will be pounded on podiums, no one will say impolite things about other countries that produce honey, the most likely comments made about a large truck would be "wow, what a gas-guzzler" or "so much chrome, and me without my sunglasses", and most tellingly, no one will show the least bit of deference to someone who simply happens to own more hives than someone else. > if 500 people attend, how do they manage to figure out the program > and registration? What am I missing? Well, it is a lot like a Grateful Dead concert. You buy tickets well in advance and travel a long distance to go to the show without knowing much about what the performance will be like, or what specific things might happen. Not knowing what to expect is part of the adventure. While this requires blind faith that the schedule will be chock-full of educational and entertaining presentations, such faith is justified. The doubting Thomases can review the list of speakers. If it is any help, the EAS 2002 schedule listed a short course in "Bee Anatomy". I did not attend the short courses, and arrived earlier on Wednesday than I had hoped to. I started kicking myself when I walked past the room where the course was being taught, and saw 20 stereo dissecting microscopes, with multiple instructors moving from student to student, coaxing them through full post-mortems. So, when they say, for example, "Bee Anatomy", they mean it. :) Also like a Grateful Dead concert, some folks go simply because EAS is THE event of the year, and to not go is to miss out on the social aspects of the meeting, or miss seeing people that they will only see at EAS. Regardless, one can relax and simply go with the flow. I've yet to hear anyone say that going to EAS was not "worth it". I keep waiting from Kim Flottum to open an EAS general session with the phrase "Welcome back my friends, to the show that never ends" but I guess he never was an Emerson, Lake and Palmer fan. jim (Who's planning horizon does not extend to August, but likely will show if he is in at least the same time zone) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 15:26:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Digital bee pictures Here are some pics taken with a Canon A40. Along with the macro lenses, it was around 300 dollars. Very easy to use. http://tvaughan.suddenlaunch2.com/index.cgi?board=Bees :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:48:23 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Re: dance language vs. odour Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian Wenner claimed that the re-discovered early papers of von Frisch which say that bees locate food by odour alone, support his (Adrian's) odour hypothesis. But, the point is that when von Frisch discovered the dance language, this new hypothesis supplanted his odour hypothesis. In the light of new data, von Frisch rejected his odour hypothesis in favour of his dance language hypothesis. However, my comprehensive hypothesis (2000. Bee World 81(1): 5-10) suggests that both the odour and dance languages hypotheses are partly right, in that bees do indeed use the information in the dance, but in two different ways: 1. some bees go to the indicated food source to most quickly exploit the already discovered food; 2. some bees use the information in the dance to avoid the indicated source, and to head in other directions to search for odour plumes in order to most quickly locate and so exploit new sources of the food. Several papers published during the last few years on communication in other species of social bees in the genus Melipona have shown that they have an ability to pass on information about food sources using a `language'. There are several hundred species in the Meliponinae, of which only a few have been studied so far. It will be most interesting to see if evidence of `language' is found for any other species. Barry J Donovan Private Bag 4704 Christchurch New Zealand. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 22:18:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: tom barrett Subject: Varroa Control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello All Here in Ireland we are going through the varroa growing pains which our USA colleagues faced a long time ago. Would I be correct in saying that if America had to face varroa again with the benefit of hindsight that America would not have used chemicals so liberally? Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland# :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 20:27:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jason Buchanan Subject: Drone farm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I opened my hives today for the first time in 3 weeks and discovered the beginnings of a mess at the bottom... Along 2 frames on the bottom super the colony decided to set up a drone farm. I didn't feel too bad about disposing of it given that it was all capped drone cells but was wondering if this was typical when the colony is given plasticell to work with throughout the hive. I was quite surprised to see how quickly the colony had drawn out half of the hive body above which I added on the 28th of May. When I lifted the 2nd body I noticed it was quite heavy which surprised me. I swapped the drawn frames with the undrawn frames to coax them into filling out all 10 frames in each body. The weather this week and the next is supposed to be quite nice. I refilled the gallon syrup jar and gave them a new beepro patty to munch on so they should be happy with this arrangement. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 21:40:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com In-Reply-To: <0e5d01c33290$58df3b50$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 14 Jun 2003 at 12:16, James Fischer wrote: > While you are at it, explain the maps you can see here: > http://www.ceris.purdue.edu/napis/pests/shb/imap/usaall.html > > Pay special attention to the Georgia map, which will appear > when you click on Georgia in the national map. > Please explain the proximate cause of the "spotty" pattern > of SHB infestations in the USA WITHOUT long-distance movement > of live bees through either: > >Look at the maps. Read 'em and weep. Well Jim, I don't mean to be contrary, but I read the South Carolina map (which I know better than Georgia) and smiled. You made my point! Take a look at it, if you would please. Look at counties 51 (Horry), 67 (Marion), 89 (Williamsburg), and 27 (Clarenden). I'll give you a piece of background information. This is where about 95% of the SC migratory bees are kept in season. Now notice that 3 of 4 of these counties have NO beetles found, despite a concentration of inspections in these counties (to certify migratories to move). Your turn to read and weep.... ;o) Dave in SC USA -Wondering if these maps are a good enough foundation for a monumental conclusion.... The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 19:16:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Digital bee pictures In-Reply-To: <200306151926.h5FJQq3C002573@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If you want to take photos just for computer display and internet use, you can get by quite cheaply; a computer monitor is typically capable of displaying only 72 pixels per inch -- a photo of this resolution will look great until you try to print it out. If you want a photo you can print to 8x10 or larger and still have it look like a photograph, you'll have to spend a few hundred more dollars. Eugene Makovec __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 16:21:41 +1200 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: Digital bee pictures In-Reply-To: <200306151926.h5FJQq3C002573@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT There are many good cameras out there that will take good macro photos. Some allow good images by getting really close, and this is OK around the hive because bees aren't so "flighty" there. These cameras will only cost a few hundred. But if you want to take images from a distance so you don't scare foraging bees, you will need a good optical zoom and an add on macro lens. This also allows a more natural perspective rather than the "fishbowl" perspective of having the "lens touching the subject". You should look for at least 5X and 10X is good. I personally use a 10X zoom with a +3 macro lens on the front (Olympus 2100 UZ - 2.1 MP). This lets me get around 1 foot away and fill half the frame with a bee. See http://www.airborne.co.nz/bees1.htm These will print to A4 size on a high quality (Epson 1290) photo printer. Assuming you are going for something like a Nikon 5700 (no thread on the lens for macro add on lens), Minolta 7i, Sony 717, there will be some chromatic aberration (colour flaring along contrasting edges of the subject, and more pronounced towards the outer regoins of the photo) , especially at full zoom with an add on macro lens. To reduce this as much as possible, you will need a flash. Sometimes you can get away with a pop up flash, and sometimes you can't. But smaller apertures and higher shutter speeds (from using a flash) will help reduce the colour flaring or chromatic aberration and improve depth of field. The next step up from these are the digital SLRs. Camera bodies start at around $1200 with lenses, flash, tripods, etc all extra..... $$$$$$$. Try www.dpreview.com for reviews, specs, history, tips and particularly the forums for opinions, problems etc once you have narrowed down your choices. Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 23:57:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa Control ( mineral oil treatment) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom & All, Would I be correct in saying that if America had to face varroa again with the benefit of hindsight that America would not have used chemicals so liberally? I do not think one could say we ever used chemicals liberally. We started with amatraz and then those strips were pulled because of some dead hives in Florida (owned by a friend of mine which still says the strips were the reason the hives died around 150 hives I believe). We used fluvalinate (Apistan) then a relative safe and effective control for varroa which is still in use in areas. Those which had fluvalinate resistant varroa had little choice but to use the checkmite strips which were very effective. The battle to control varroa is on going and will get harder when the checkmite strips quit working in our area. Published results of 1998 mineral oil testing in Missouri I realize you have been a advocate of mineral oil but we ruled out mineral oil in 1999 after tests run in Missouri in the year 1998 under a grant by the Missouri department of Agriculture (S.A.R.E. program) using Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez method had a complete failure. I do not think the results are available on line but are published in the 1998-2000 "Missouri Sustainable Agriculture Demonstration Award Projects " book available from the Missouri Department of Agriculture. Heading up the project was a beekeeper/entomologist with two master beekeeper certifications (Matt Higdon),with help from the president of the Missouri State beekeepers ( Art Gelder) and Ray Nabors (a respected beekeeper which teaches beekeeping classes). Not room for me to put all details of the project in this post but will quote from Matt Higdon from page 24 of the above book: Though the results are disappointing , Higdon points out," The real value of the test is to illustrate that one must be skeptical of the many anecdotal reports and unsubstantiated observations that abound on the internet-no matter how well intentioned they may be" Instructions were gleaned from to quote from pg. 22 of the above book: "Much of this project is a follow-up to the recent work of a "Dr. Pedro P.Rodriguez', presumably a retired veterinarian in Virginia" I believe both Matt & Dr. Rodriguez are members of BEE-L so maybe they will comment. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 01:29:30 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") Dave said, of Horry, Marion, Williamsburg, Clarenden counties in SC: > This is where about 95% of the SC migratory bees are kept in season. > Now notice that 3 of 4 of these counties have NO beetles found, > despite a concentration of inspections in these counties (to certify > migratories to move). I was certainly not claiming that EVERY migratory operation was infested with SHB. :) I was stating the obvious - that both the nationwide pattern of infestation and the patterns within infested states defy all but a few possible explanations. In the South Carolina map http://www.ceris.purdue.edu/napis/pests/shb/imap/scshb.html we see three counties were SHB was "not found" as of 11/40/2002, but all the counties that surround them are counties where SHB was listed as "established". How did that happen? There is no apparent natural protection for these counties that might block the "natural" spread of SHB, so we are left with the conclusion that such a strange pattern could not be a result of "natural" spread. The long distances between infested areas are one clue. The complete lack of infestation in many states is another. The pattern of infestation on the East coast of the USA deserves special attention. Compared the infested areas with the paths of Interstate Highways 95, 77, 26, and so on. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 06:47:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Varroa Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tom from Ireland posits, “Would I be correct in saying that if America had to face varroa again with the benefit of hindsight that America would not have used chemicals so liberally?” Depending on whom/who [in America] you ask, the answer may vary—-with correct justification, of course. My personal take, nevertheless, is “yes”—-the impossibility of controlling every Tom, Dick, and Harry in beekeeping notwithstanding. A while back, I entertained that pathogens in general seem to go through Hegelian dialectics: initial contact followed by devastation followed by armistice of sort followed by gradual recovery. Actually the process sounds more like “Death and Resurrection” Motif universal in your compatriot Joseph Campbell’s illustrious books on Myths. Having said that, though, I do understand there are exceptions, though rare, wherein a pathogen can wipe clean out a host species. But by not treating the bees at all, one can accelerate the baptism-by-fire process, thus helping our bees, with no stinking favors. Sure, one must take desperate measures in desperate times dictated by his/her circumstances and locations. It is hard not to. But there will be feral bees in the verdant Irish groves, in “The Lake Isle of Innisfree” perhaps, that will face mites head on. But come back they will. They must. According to my casual observations, of collecting swarms for several years in my area, there are more feral swarms in each year; in fact, this year I collected more than double [14] of what I had last year already [7], and am still waiting for the phone to ring. Of course, it is impossible to accurately account for all the swarms: the ones that got away or the ones that nobody noticed, for instance. However, my friends in the Deep South seem to experience a similar upswing. To save the bees, one must treat whichever may be the most effective way according to his/her location or scale of operation: name all the fine chemicals and mouth-foaming theories here. I disbelieve them all. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:07:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com In-Reply-To: <019401c333c8$436627f0$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 16 Jun 2003 at 1:29, James Fischer wrote: > The pattern of infestation on the East coast of the USA > deserves special attention. Compared the infested areas > with the paths of Interstate Highways 95, 77, 26, and so on. While the maps can give some clues, they cannot be simplistically interpreted. There are lots of additional details to check. 1. Inspectors may not be looking. Or may not recognize the beetle when they see it. This is, of course not the case with the South Carolina counties.... 2. Inspectors may not WANT to see them. (OK cheap shot, and unlikely most places.) 3. Beetles may be present but not thriving. This is the biggie in many areas. You can find an occasional beetle, but rarely see them, unless you are specifically focusing on their hiding spots. Some geographical factor (perhaps soil type) limits their population. 4. Presence of source of high pressure. You know that when you lose a hive that is eaten out by wax worms, the remaining hives will have a lot of moths trying to lay eggs. Hives that can drive out an occasional moth, may not be able to stop every one when thousands are trying to get in. Same for beetles. One badly infested hive that collapses can throw off a LOT of beetles to go after others in the area. And beekeepers have learned NEVER to put a super of honey from a beetle-attacked hive onto a strong hive to "clean it up" as you might do with a beginning attack by wax moths. It simply overwhelms them. This is why someone who doesn't know what he's doing can spread a lot lot of beetles. Yeah, even the guy with two hives.... 5. Many more variables. Why does one hobby beekeeper near the farmers market tell me the "beetles are eating him up," while others in the area regard them as a minor problem? Why does the population get high one year and virtually disappear the next? A friend of mine had the beetles for three years (and lost a lot of hives) before he found out what it was. He seems to be in an area where the beetles thrive. He has NO migratories in his area. But the beetles freely fly from one apiary to another. Jim, I respect you as a highly intelligent guy. But your insistance on such simplistic interpretation of questionable maps gives me the strong impression that your conclusion was made before you saw the data, and continues to be made despite additional data.... I know a lot of hobby beekeepers and a lot of commercial beekeepers. While I respect and enjoy relationships with both, I find the commercial guys (the awful migratories) to be much more careful about diseases and parasites than the average hobbyist. This is their livelihood. The days when they could be careless are over. The ones that were careless are mostly gone. Let's dispense with the the seemingly built-in bias against a group that simply is trying to do what we all love to do - keep bees. Dave in SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:16:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: chemical control of varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Would I be correct in saying that if America had to face varroa again with the benefit of hindsight that America would not have used chemicals so liberally?" IMHO, I don't think so. Unlike the situation in many European countries, beekeeping here is primarily a commercial operation, meaning that most of the honey is produced by those having over 500 beehives. I believe that the non-chemical approaches are impractical once one has much over 100 hives. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:01:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: pests and disease MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Let's dispense with the the seemingly built-in bias against a group that simply is trying to do what we all love to do - keep bees." I have not read Jim as reflecting any bias. It seems to me that he is just presenting information that confirms what 'we' all know. Three years ago, when some Canadians wanted to see some SHB, a migratory said that they could look at his yards along the St. Lawrence river in upstate NY as he 'knew' he had them (from Florida). He also told a lot of us stories of how he manages to control them in his honey house...here in the Northeast. I think he is the largest migratory beekeeper in the Northeast. His attitude is that he has to make a living. He feels as if he runs a first-class operation, but any operation as large as his will reflect the conditions where he keeps bees. Which is all over. Because he 'has' to migrate he is likely to spread pests and disease, and that is just the way it is. More or less...these are his words, they are not an apology but an explanation. Personally, I am sorry that Dave Green and probably others have felt I was attacking migratory operations. I had no intention of doing so. I was instead pointing out that some inspection programs are so compromised as to be very questionable. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:57:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") Dave and Jim: Just to report that we, too, have SHB in Oklahoma although not to such an extent to be alarmed if one maintains strong colonies. In fact, it was about three years ago when I took down a feral colony that I had first noticed their presence around here. Now the beetles visit my colonies regularly to gain entrance and once in a while I see my bees gang up on against the iron-clad beetle, pushing and shoving them off the landing board. [Have you noticed this phenomenon?] Tacky, the beetles are tenacious, refusing to be pushed off. Of course, I help my bees out by twisting their heads off; no sooner do I catch them and place them on the ground to stomp than they fly away, lightening-fast. So be quick. When cleaning the bottom boards of small colonies, I often find the beetle larvae hidden deep in the heap of debris, as well. Yoon Finally poised for sumac to bloom to finish off the flow. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:28:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: chemical control of varroa In-Reply-To: <005501c33401$2d9afed0$29256118@newdell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:16 AM 6/16/03 -0400, you wrote: > I believe that the non-chemical approaches are impractical once one has > much over 100 hives. On the other hand, If we had the same knowledge and tools/treatments that we do now, I would have to so yes, things would be different. While non-chemical approaches may be impractical for large operations, the available options could be rotated, extending the time before resistance builds. Add even some limited IPM in the large operations and things may have been different today. But then hindsight is 20-20. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:39:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: chemical control of varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > "Would I be correct in saying that if America had to face varroa again with > the benefit of hindsight that America would not have used chemicals so > liberally?" > > IMHO, I don't think so. There are many posts in the archives about letting nature take its course, and Lloyd's comments about commercial beekeepers in the US condenses them nicely. Had chemicals not been used, there would be no commercial operations in the US. Chemicals gave a respite for other methods of control to be developed. If you looked at any of the literature at that time, all knew it was only about ten years before resistance happen, and it came right on time. Now we have many different controls because we had time. If someone really wants natural controls so that bees can adapt, they should not treat with anything (including so called natural chemicals that never appear in such concentrations in nature and are manufactured in chemical plants!), should not manipulate cell size or in any way "interfere with nature". That includes swarm management, raising of queens, purchasing queens and other "unnatural" techniques. Otherwise, it is not natural. Or is natural beekeeping really an arbitrary drawing of boundaries where some "unnatural" management is fine? If so, my natural beekeeping boundaries include the use of thermonuclear weapons (the sun is thermonuclear, hence I am natural). Species do not always adapt, otherwise, when we go to our bee yard, we would have be vigilant for the occasional T Rex. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:39:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: SHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dave & All, I might add to Dave's small hive beetle list. 6. The SHB lives most of the time away from the hive and (like the wax moth) infests mainly to lay eggs. A weak hive is the hive of choice. Because you are not finding many beetles in the hive does not mean you are safe from the SHB if in a known area of SHB infestation. Bob's advice: One needs to determine the time of year when (like the wax moth) the SHB is most prolific in your area at laying eggs and maintain strong hives and reduced entrances on nucs and weak hives. Better yet combine weak hives with other weak hives during the period the SHB is most activce at egg laying. The above also applies to the time the wax moth is most active also! In certain parts of the south the period may be most of the year but in Missouri the period would only be several months. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:29:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: pests and disease MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > Personally, I am sorry that Dave Green and probably others have felt I was > attacking migratory operations. I had no intention of doing so. I was > instead pointing out that some inspection programs are so compromised as to > be very questionable. SHB is in Maine and did come from migratory beekeepers. It has been found in their colonies by the State Bee Inspector. The operators had to deal with them. Varroa came to Maine the same way. Operators have to deal with it when found. Maybe tracheal did too. I am sure resistant AFB will too. And AHB, if it has not already. So, what? It just means we deal with a problem now rather than later. There is no way that the State will stop pollinators at the border to protect the local hobby beekeepers and in so doing destroy a multi million dollar blueberry operation. I agree with that choice. The nice thing is, we have an exceptional Inspector who has the backing of the Blueberry industry, so the commercial pollinators listen and do what he says. Otherwise, they are not invited back. We hobby beekeepers are fairly well protected, or at least as well as could be expected. Truth is, I know of only one beekeeper who had a major problem that destroyed many of his colonies, and that was not because of a commercial operation in the area (he is a small scale pollinator), but by a hobby beekeeper. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:40:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: chemical control of varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill said: Had chemicals not been used, there would be no commercial operations in the US. Chemicals gave a respite for other methods of control to be developed. The answer to varroa is a bee which can live with varroa and pollinate & produce a honey crop. We are closer to finding such a bee thanks to chemicals. The leave alone theory has not worked. Beekeeper story: A friend (third generation beekeeper) left 2000 hives untreated in 1993. Granddad had told him to let varroa do its worse and breed from the survivors. At the ABF convention in Orlando in 1994 he had around 180 colonies left. He was treating but those hives were over threshold and died anyway. Many many beekeepers tried the leave alone method for both tracheal mite and varroa with disappointing results. Another beekeeper story: A large beekeeper in Missouri wanted to wait and see how bad varroa losses would be before buying apistan strips (why spend the money) although he had found varroa in his hives. He wintered his hives in Texas in the fall of 1992 and a late flow happened and the bees kept raising brood and the varroa kept reproducing. When he was ready to make splits in the spring of 1993 90% of the hives were dead or dying. He fired his head beekeeper for incompetence which caused the later demise of the business as he was unable to hire another professional beekeeper. FERAL SWARMS ???? Most swarms people are catching are coming from swarms from managed colonies. The only swarm calls I get are in the area of one of my yards and has been the case for many years. I suspect there are other beekeepers in Yoon's area or the swarms may be coming from his own bee hives. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 06:49:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Varroa Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Would I be correct in saying that if America had to face varroa again > with the benefit of hindsight that America would not have used > chemicals so liberally? I don't know if you mean 'America' in the sense the US uses the term, or if you include Canada, Mexico, and the rest of the Americas, or who in America could decide for all. America is a huge place, no matter whether you mean it in the smallest or largest sense, with an amazing variety of climates and beekeeping practices. I doubt that 'America' has a single mind on the matter, but if it did, I suspect that most of the beekeeping part of America's mind would have wished for a broader spectrum of chemicals, and more study of all possibilities. The organic city shopper would likely have opted -- without thinking, even -- for none at all, regardless of economic cost to producers or the variety of food offered at low cost to consumers. In some areas, without two, or even three chemical treatments of some sort each year, colony loss would have repeatedly wiped out commercial beekeeping. In others, a year or two may pass without need for chemical intervention, although monitoring is certainly prudent in all cases. In spite of many decades of study, no one really knows all the mechanisms and factors involved in the varroa/honey bee interraction. After all, we just (finally) figured out quite recently which varroa was doing all the damage! Probably, in the long run, some sort of equilibrium will develop, but without chemicals, the immediate and short-term economic loss would have been unaccepable. Chemicals, used well, work well and reliably, with a minimum of harm to the bees or threat to humans. Nonetheless, chemicals in the wrong hands are dangerous. There is always a cost/benefit calculation to be made, as well as an analysis of probable effectiveness and cost. Chemicals range too, in cost and toxicity, from benign and harmless substances -- like powdered sugar, and mineral oil -- to substances that have effects on bees and mammals that are very disturbing to contemplate. As we lose effectiveness in a more benign chemical like fluvalinate, and move towards more toxic and cumulative compounds, like cumaphos, the use of chemicals looks less attractive. The best use of chemicals is to buy time for researchers and beekeepers to develop methods and stock for control and to gain understanding of the problem. In the fullness of time, we all hope that chemical stopgap measures will become less and less necessary to the point where management, stock selection and other factors may reduce chemical use to levels near zero. We also hope that where chemicals are required, that methods and substances can be developed which have the minimum possible impact -- ideally zero -- on the bees, the beekeeper, the environment, and the consumer. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 13:57:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Digital bee pictures In-Reply-To: <002501c332a6$1e6807c0$802865d5@ronmierl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Ron van Mierlo > is an Olympus Camedia C-2500L. (2,5 milion pixels). It has a zoom I use the same camera. The resolution is sufficient (even in medium res) for publication at 8x10 (newsletter cover). At high res, the 8x10 is photo quality (to most eyes). For professional work, you'll want higher res (more cost, and LOTS more memory needed both for taking pictures and storing them) > it come in sizes from 2-64MB or 96MB for a compact flash type. This camera > has a macro and super-macro setting for close-ups. In super-macro > I have more > than once managed to touch bees with the lens, but the documented minimum > distance is 2 cm. If you want close-ups pay very close attention to the minimum focus distance -- on many digital cameras, it is MUCH farther out than this one, so close ups are impossible. Also, invest in a good tripod (and monopod for field shots where tripods don't work). For flower shots, be prepared to block the wind on the flower you are interested in (with portable shield of some sort - if white in color, can double as a light bouncer), as close-up shots can take longer exposure times. Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:37:13 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron van Mierlo Subject: Re: Digital bee pictures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Karen and group, > For flower shots, be prepared to block the wind on the flower > you are interested in (with portable shield of some sort - if white in > color, can double as a light bouncer), as close-up shots can take longer > exposure times. Yes light seems to become a problem, getting up close. I notice that the lens, the camera and my big fat head block the light from the usual source, the sun. I tried some white paper as a reflector, but that often seems to desturb the insects, just as the lens that is poked up their nose! The standard flash misses the subject in these conditions, so perhaps a ringflash as with the medical Nikkor lens might help (even to empty your bank account in one hit!!). Ron van Mierlo :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 21:58:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Digital bee pictures "Yes light seems to become a problem, getting up close. I notice that the lens, the camera and my big fat head block the light from the usual source, the sun. I tried some white paper as a reflector, but that often seems to desturb the insects, just as the lens that is poked up their nose! The standard flash misses the subject in these conditions, so perhaps a ringflash as with the medical Nikkor lens might help (even to empty your bank account in one hit" Actually, I disagree with all these points. Use the sun, the sun is the best source of light for your photos. If there's a shadow, just move to another side. It works better, and doesn't cost anything. I've posted several pictures just now so you can see how I took advantage of just plain daylight. The honeycomb I just went over to my truck, and pulled out a super that I harvested today, and leaned my camera against a hive top to steady it. http://tvaughan.suddenlaunch2.com/index.cgi? board=Bees&action=display&num=1055811665 Regards Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:37:33 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 15 Jun 2003 to 16 Jun 2003 (#2003-168) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison has related several horror stories of mass killings of hives by varroa. We don't yet have varroa in the South Island of New Zealand - well not that we know, but its advent is thought to be inevitable, and we are of course very apprehensive of the damage it may well do. Bob, if I recall at all correctly, you acquired some SMR queens over a year ago. Can you give us your opinion of them please. Thanks very much. Regards, Barry Donovan Private Bag 4704 Christchurch New Zealand. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 11:24:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Digital bee pictures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If your camera will not let you get close enough, you can buy supplementary close up lenses which screw into the filter rings. These allow the camera to go closer and are numebred in diopters which is equal to 1000/f where f is the focal length of the lens in mm. >From my days taking real close ups of poisonous snakes, the best arrangement is to use the camera lens at telephoto and then the supplementary lens. If you have interchangeable lenses then a telephoto with extension tubes gives a slightly better picture, but it might suffer from vignetting. I haven't tried digital cameras yet, but this information will apply as it is purely optical. Ruary Rudd ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen D. Oland" To: Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Digital bee pictures > > If you want close-ups pay very close attention to the minimum focus > distance -- on many digital cameras, it is MUCH farther out than this one, > so close ups are impossible. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 08:05:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Varroa Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks: “Most swarms people are catching,” Bob observes in a broad stroke, “are coming from swarms from managed colonies. The only swarm calls I get are in the area of one of my yards and has been the case for many years.” And then he assumes, “I suspect there are other beekeepers in Yoon's area or the swarms may be coming from his own bee hives.” Not so. Ask your friends down in the Deep South. [Those of you from the south may want to disprove me here] Most of my bees are New World Carniolans now; I regularly requeened them as the feral stocks become too defensive after a few years although, for crossing and genetic vigor, I always maintain at least ten feral stocks at all times. For public safety and maintaining a good neighborhood, I feel I must requeen them after a while. The feral bees are all Italian varieties—-one hundred percent. Most of them come from residential walls and tree cavities that I monitor as they become perennial sources for my winter loss. I know several houses and a few trees with bees in them. [People just do not want to pay $150 to remove them, granted removal is feasible] Out of about forty, I did have two swarms of my own this year: I had thinned my Carnies in March, but as my operation expands, I had to give them another deep full of foundation, a classic formula. There are three hobbyists in my area, all of whom live outside the city limit, Shawnee is a good-size city, and most of my swarm-captures occur in the downtown area as you read the newspaper article a while back. Nobody keeps bees there. Nevertheless, your illustrations of past mite devastation struck me in that they all occurred in the early 1990’s (1993), about a decade ago, a significant factor that seems to indicate that it might take at least a decade for our bees to fight mites and emerge as victor. Do you have any recent anecdotes of such magnitude? If so, I stand corrected. Those of you who are now facing mite invasion worldwide might want to make a note of that. To accelerate the process, one might want to isolate a yard, this has been suggested here on Bee-L, and isolate the feral swarm- captures there and observe how they fare—-it will not cost anything even if they fail. Plus there could be yet more feral swarms next year. There are bees, we should remind ourselves, that coexist with mites and SHB, among others. Not a purist, I do not know what I am doing is “right,” either. Allow me to repeat here that depending on your locale and scale, you should treat bees with whatever works best for you. I have no problem with that. But I, too, believe in my bees—-their inherent ability to fight for their own survival, never the chemical industry that sponges money while possibly contaminating the environment irrevocably with unknown carcinogens. I want my bees to have their chance, a chance they have been deprived of so long. That’s all. Yes, I am naive--enough to shout, "Look, the king is buck-naked!" Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 08:41:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 15 Jun 2003 to 16 Jun 2003 (#2003-168) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry asked: Bob, if I recall at all correctly, you acquired some SMR queens over a year ago. Can you give us your opinion of them please. To bring everyone up to speed my partner and I recieved two SMR breeder queens from Glenn Apiaries the first week of July 2001. The instrumentally inseminated ( II ) queens were of the red & yellow SMR lines. the queens I raised (red line) were open mated to my best survivor queen (Carniolan). My partners (yellow line)were open mated to a Marla Spivak hygienic queens ( Italian II queen)drones. I tested my SMR bees for varroa quite a bit. My partner did only fall & spring testing. Of all bees tested for varroa the SMR headed hives had the lowest varroa counts. All had a varroa count in fall. My open mated SMR queens tend to lay a spotty brood pattern and are average to below average honey producers. None of the SMR were aggressive. The yellow line II queen started laying a spotty brood pattern after a few months . Her daughters also laid the spotty brood pattern so she was dropped from the program and my (red line) queen was used in her place. We were sent a letter by Dr. Harbo saying spotty brood patterns were being observed in II SMR queens and he was researching looking for possible reasons. The yellow line queen fit the description. My (red line) queen only laid what I would call a not perfect brood pattern and continued in use until the spring of 2003 when she became a drone layer. Her daughters did not lay the less than desirable brood pattern. I have got the greatest respect for the efforts of the Baton Rouge Bee lab and Glenn Apiaries. I would say the SMR queens produced as expected and may again try SMR breeder queens but am now playing around with Russians. Early report as promised: My Russian queens (April 2003) are in production hives and have got the honey supers on so early on in the Russian experiment. I spent quite a bit of time getting the queens introduced with problems but got 96 out of the 100 to take. One of the problems was that the bees in the hive would not feed the Russian queens in the cages (I do not introduce with attendants as I get my queens in a battery pack ). When released the Russian queens would go immediately to a cell of honey and drink honey. Some introductions took over a week due to the bees trying to ball the queen. These were the hardest queens I have ever tried to introduce and can see why hobby beekeepers might have trouble. Many beekeepers in the Midwestern Beekeepers say they gave up after the third Russian queen was balled or killed in the cage by the bees. These Russian queens were from different queen breeders so the problem is universal. My partner thought I was making a big deal out of nothing taking so much time introducing the Russian queens but I am glad I did. I gave my partner a couple Russian queens to try. My partner is a excellent beekeeper and did use push in cages . He reported the same type of problems as the bees tried to ball one of the queens when released but the hatching brood did feed the Russian queens which was an improvement over my observations of non feeding while in the queen cage. I also observed non feeding in the battery pack which involved quite a bit of extra work to keep those unused queens alive. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. I do apologize to those on the list which emailed me wanting SMR queens from us. We simply used every one we raised. We did supply many hobby beekeepers in the Midwestern Beekeeper Assn. of which we are both officers with a few queens to try but queen rearing is only a hobby at best for myself and my partner although one year my partner did raise over a thousand queens in spring in south Texas . :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 08:53:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon said; Nevertheless, your illustrations of past mite devastation struck me in that they all occurred in the early 1990's (1993), about a decade ago, a significant factor that seems to indicate that it might take at least a decade for our bees to fight mites and emerge as victor. Do you have any recent anecdotes of such magnitude? In California (2003) my partner bought deadouts from a commercial beekeeper which lost 600 of 1200 hives to varroa and did not want to pay shipping back to his home state on deadouts as he was headed to Texas before returning to his home state. Varroa infestation was the problem. In late winter of 2001 a Missouri beekeeper shipped two semi loads to California ( removed in very cold weather so not looked at ) and all but around 20 hives were dead on arrival because of varroa infestation. if so, I stand corrected. Varroa & tracheal mites are alive and well in the U.S. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 08:32:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Eastern Apicultural Society Deadline MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> ...You buy tickets well in advance and travel a long distance to go to the show without knowing much about what the performance will be like... Also like a Grateful Dead concert, some folks go simply because EAS is THE event of the year, and to not go is to miss out on the social aspects of the meeting<<< Well, maybe -- but, for those who are wondering -- I've given up and decided not to pre-register. I'll be in the area at that time, and may attempt to drop in on the meeting, especially if I can find out more about the program before then. I guess I'm disappointed, since I had planned to attend, and had planned my schedule around the event, but I'm getting very mixed reviews on EAS, and the material available does not really allow me to decide for myself. In response to replies like the quote above, I'd like to say that I've attended the Niagara Falls meeting, the AHPA meeting, and the ABF meeting this year, as well as some other, more minor meetings. For me, and many others, a detailed advance program is a minimum requirement, and all other events listed here were able to provide one. Sure, there are always changes, and sometimes major ones, due to life events beyond anyone's control, but that is understood. As it happens, I have heard a number of the featured speakers at least once, and some three or four times. I'd like to know when, where and what they will be presenting. Maybe this is THE event of the year (I really doubt it) but there is a good chance I'll never find out. At any rate, I'm headed east this summer, as far as Rhode Island, Maine and PEI, and a number of people have written, saying to be sure to drop by. If you're along that route and would like to see us as we pass through, just drop me a line. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ If you don't put your supers on early, you'll have no clue what your bees could have accomplished. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 10:44:04 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") In-Reply-To: <3EED7AC3.24096.50103A2@localhost> Dave said: > While the maps can give some clues, they cannot be > simplistically interpreted. I'd prefer that we use the phrase "directly interpreted" rather than the more argumentative phrase "simplistically interpreted". Even then, I'm not sure what "reading between the lines" is required. Given all the field work that went into the maps, the multi-year dataset that supports the maps, the clear definitions of each color (you can click on the legend on any state map to see the formal definitions), and the efforts of the large number of skilled professionals that went into doing the surveys, I'd like to know what they missed, and what additional "interpretation" might be required. > 1. Inspectors may not be looking. Or may not recognize > the beetle when they see it. I am sure that all inspectors, and most beekeepers have seen either photos or a preserved SHB specimen by now. But even if (1) above were true, this would mean that detection would merely be delayed until SHB takes over a few colonies somewhere. That does not take very long. The result would simply be a "lag" in reporting, not a change in the overall pattern of spread. Given the unique pattern we have, where infested areas are isolated from each other, often by hundreds of miles, clearly refutes argument (1). The inspectors DO find SHB in specific areas, and DO NOT find SHB in the areas that surround the infested site. Same inspectors. Same techniques. > This is, of course not the case with the South Carolina counties. If not the case in South Carolina, why would it be the case elsewhere? Is South Carolina blessed with more bees inspectors than other states? Better bee inspectors than other states? Superior detection methodology? > 2. Inspectors may not WANT to see them. (OK cheap shot, and > unlikely most places.) Not only (very!) cheap and (highly!) unlikely, it is claiming that people are not motivated or skilled enough to do their jobs. I'm going to pretend the point above was never offered. > 3. Beetles may be present but not thriving. This is the biggie in > many areas. You can find an occasional beetle, but rarely see > them, unless you are specifically focusing on their hiding spots. See (1) above. The same refutation applies to both (1) and (3). > Some geographical factor (perhaps soil type) limits their > population. Nope, "soil type" has been considered. SHB seems to like everything from the rich loams of Ohio to the sandy soils of the coastlines. > 4. Presence of source of high pressure. You know that when you > lose a hive that is eaten out by wax worms, the remaining hives will > have a lot of moths trying to lay eggs. Hives that can drive out an > occasional moth, may not be able to stop every one when > thousands are trying to get in. Same for beetles. One badly > infested hive that collapses can throw off a LOT of beetles to go > after others in the area. And beekeepers have learned NEVER to > put a super of honey from a beetle-attacked hive onto a strong hive > to "clean it up" as you might do with a beginning attack by wax > moths. It simply overwhelms them. This is why someone who > doesn't know what he's doing can spread a lot lot of beetles. Yeah, > even the guy with two hives.... I think you have it backwards. The guys with "two hives" can (and do!) "inspect" 100% of their hives more often than many might consider prudent. (There is a point at which "regular inspection" becomes "harassment".) The more hives a beekeeper has, the LESS often any specific hive can be inspected, and the longer SHB can go undetected. Same for hobbyist storage and extraction areas, as these areas are most often NOT dedicated solely to beekeeping, and must be cleaned up promptly when honey harvesting is over. > 5. Many more variables. Why does one hobby beekeeper near the > farmers market tell me the "beetles are eating him up," while others > in the area regard them as a minor problem? The specifics of any SHB infestation near a farmer's market should be pointed out to one's state apiarist, as this would be a new and perhaps interesting finding. Regardless, if the primary carrier of SHB were produce trucks, SHB would be much much more widely spread than it is. > Why does the population get high one year and virtually disappear the > next? I dunno. I'm a physicist, not a coleopterist. Maybe someone else can answer this one. > A friend of mine had the beetles for three years... > He seems to be in an area where the beetles thrive. He has NO > migratories in his area. But the beetles freely fly from one > apiary to another. The fact that an "area" has multiple beekeepers with SHB infestations does not imply that the SHB are "flying" between apiaries. In fact, just about every official description of SHB includes the phrase "The beetles are spread mainly via movement of beetle-infested colonies." Some descriptions also note the much smaller number of cases traced to SHB-infested packages from bee breeders. Bottom line, if "flying SHB" or swarming were the primary cause of the spread of SHB, we would not have maps showing large uninfested areas between the small areas where outbreaks have been found. > your insistance on such simplistic interpretation Again, the term "simplistic" appears. How is noting where SHB has and has not been detected by skilled professionals over a period of years "simplistic"? What "more sophisticated" analysis would one prefer? > of questionable maps And just how are the maps "questionable"? They are the work product of the best and brightest available. The fact that many isolated outbreaks have been found and "controlled" BEFORE they got out of hand supports the stance that these folks are on their toes, and know what to look for. > gives me the strong impression that your conclusion was made before > you saw the data, and continues to be made despite additional data.... I'll be charitable, and also ignore the above. I also await any actual data that might shed more light on the situation. (Note I said "data" and not "wishful thinking".) The points offered above are mere argument and speculation, and are easily refuted by the clear and compelling evidence at hand. Nothing would make me happier than to find out that SHB is not spread by beekeepers, but as it is, it seems clear that we have no one to blame but ourselves. > I know a lot of hobby beekeepers and a lot of commercial > beekeepers. While I respect and enjoy relationships with both, I > find the commercial guys (the awful migratories) to be much more > careful about diseases and parasites than the average hobbyist. I agree. I also have the highest respect for doctors, but this does not lessen the risk of contracting an antibiotic-resistant staph infection at a hospital, something that simply does not happen outside of a hospital. > Let's dispense with the the seemingly built-in bias against a group > that simply is trying to do what we all love to do - keep bees. Claiming "bias" is a >>>VERY<<< serious accusation. Such an accusation should be clearly proven, or withdrawn publicly. A clearly-explained rational analysis of the public record, presented in plain English cannot be labeled "biased" merely because one does not like the conclusions. I CONTINUE to await any actual hard data that might shed more light on the situation, but until then, I'm going to pay attention to what hard data we have. I CONTINUE to challenge the group to explain the evidence at hand with a proximate cause OTHER than the long-distance movement of live bees in the form of infested hives or packages. And I reject each of the following unsupported claims as meritless: a) That the interpretation is "simplistic". b) That the maps are "questionable". c) That the inspectors are lazy or incompetent. d) That I am "biased". While it might be possible for any one of these items to be true, it would be highly unlikely for all 4 to be true at the same time. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 12:02:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave asked; > Why does the population get high one year and virtually disappear the > next? Periods of drought have been shown to reduce problems from the small hive beetle in Florida. Many *home remedies* were claimed to be the answer until the rains came and the beetles were back with a vengeance. Perhaps one reason the SHB was not a serious pest in South Africa was because of their long periods of drought. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 17:49:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Non-digital bee pictures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nowadays you can get any 35mm film on CD as well as on paper so you don't need to buy a digital camera if you are happy with what you have. I am pleased with my old Practica LTL3.. For macro use I put extension rings behind the usual lens. I haven't in fact used it much for bees, more for flowers, and have been able to get, for example, close ups of the pollinia of butterfly orchids without disturbing the plant. I have taken photos of butterflies on plants 10 feet away without disturbing them by putting the extension rings behind a 200mm lens. The depth of focus is much reduced to maybe a couple of inches but the insect itself fills the picture sharply with a fuzzy background. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:42:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: honey processing area question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I have got a problem I have not been able to come up with a solution for and thought maybe another beekeeper might have had the same problem and found a solution. I use exterior metal insulated doors into the honey processing area. The type sold at Lowe's , Home Depot etc. Mainly because of the insulation factor and their being able to keep power washer water from running into other areas of the building. The problem is we two wheel heavy supers, 55 gallon drums etc. across these thresholds at times (raining outside ) and the thresholds keep breaking out. I have got two doors with broken thresholds at present time. . My idea is two remove the threshold and attach something to the bottom of the door to prevent water from entering the main building area when I power wash, keep dust and bugs, spiders, snakes and rodents( if they were to show up in the future) from entering the processing area and keep heat inside. Also the solution must be able to be approved by the health department. These are not doors which open to the outside of the building. Those same type doors which do open to the outside never have a problem as we do not two wheel across those as we use the roll up door. The stock thresholds work good but are a pain to two wheel a 55 gallon drum of honey over. removing the threshold would make two wheeling through the door easier. Thanks in advance and the list is probably not interested in the above so email me directly if you have got a solution. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:41:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: honey processing area question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The problem is we two wheel heavy supers, 55 gallon drums etc. > across these thresholds at times (raining outside ) and the > thresholds keep breaking out.... > My idea is two remove the threshold and attach something to the > bottom of the door to prevent water from entering the main building > area when I power wash, I've seen doors with a flap that folds or slides down to make a seal when the door is in the very final stages of closing. This can be accomplished many ways, using cams, springs, ramps, cables or other mechanisms. I suspect that there is a standard system available somewhere, but it would be quite easy to rig your own. I've personally built wipers on the bottom of doors, using rubber floormat material, either as a flap, or as a 'U' tacked onto one side or both. If set up properly, it will toggle (flip-flop) as the door goes back and forth, Like a windshield wiper. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:35:47 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: honey processing area question > My idea is two remove the threshold and attach something to the bottom of > the door to prevent water from entering the main building area when I > power wash, keep dust and bugs, spiders, snakes and rodents( if they were > to show up in the future) from entering the processing area and keep heat > inside. You need a "vinyl door sweep". There are versions that attach to the underside of the door and versions that attach to the inside surface of the door. The bracket is aluminum, and the actual "sweep" is vinyl. > Also the solution must be able to be approved by the health department. I have no idea what the health department might say, as a determined mouse could clearly chew through the vinyl. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:40:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") Jim writes, "And I reject each of the following unsupported claims as meritless": a) That the interpretation is "simplistic". b) That the maps are "questionable". c) That the inspectors are lazy or incompetent. d) That I am "biased". e) That non-migratory beekeepers created "out of the blue" all the bee- pathogens while writing books on the joy of migratory beekeeping in America, knowingly moving infested bees from state to state to simply make a living. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 23:42:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Varroa Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/17/2003 5:19:40 AM Pacific Standard Time,=20 yskim@CPN-NET.COM writes: > =E2=80=9CMost swarms people are catching,=E2=80=9D Bob observes in a broad= stroke, =E2=80=9Care > coming from swarms from managed colonies. The only swarm calls I get are > in the area of one of my yards and has been the case for many years.=E2= =80=9D And > then he assumes, =E2=80=9CI suspect there are other beekeepers in Yoon's a= rea or > the swarms may be coming from his own bee hives.=E2=80=9D I have gotten 15 swarms starting with my own swarm on February 28th!!! I got= =20 2 swarms on Main Street in Sebastopol and one on HWY 116 at the Village=20 Bakery. 2 swarms were from an old Eucalyptus stump in Petaluma. On a mock or= ange I=20 took one that was a second issue from a Catalpa Tree. I have taken one from=20= a=20 trailer and a dumpster. Apple trees brought 4 swarms. I am in the process o= f=20 removing swarms from 2 different structues. I'm in Northern California. > But, I, too, believe in my bees=E2=80=94-their inherent ability to fight=20= for their=20 > own > survival, never the chemical industry that sponges money while possibly > contaminating the environment irrevocably with unknown carcinogens. I > want my bees to have their chance, a chance they have been deprived of so > long. That=E2=80=99s all. Yes, I am naive--enough to shout, "Look, the k= ing is > buck-naked!" >=20 Yoon, you always crack me up!!! I feel the same way about my bees. I had 6=20 live hives with mites after my first year of beekeeping. I tried every diffe= rent=20 thing...drone trapping, open mesh floor, powdered sugar shake, sugar and=20 grease patties, etc. I plan to do that again this year. Kathy Cox :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 01:02:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Non-digital bee pictures In-Reply-To: <104.30c70add.2c20e6e9@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: CSlade777@AOL.COM > Nowadays you can get any 35mm film on CD as well as on paper so you don't > need to buy a digital camera if you are happy with what you have. True. But the ones I've seen scan them in at fairly low resolution. And digital lets you see if you got the shot now (not next week). And I can take 200 shots a day (and have bee known to do so) and not pay for more film, processing or CD's. Yes, there are many so-so or bad shots, but many more good shots than when worrying about film costs. The delete key works well for those that you don't wish anyone else to see. We figured we paid for the camera the first vacation we took with it. Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 00:53:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Digital bee pictures In-Reply-To: <200306170158.h5H1uL3I006209@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From:Tim Vaughan > Actually, I disagree with all these points. Use the sun, the sun is the > best source of light for your photos. If there's a shadow, just move to > another side. ... > The honeycomb I just went over to my truck.... I find that in the process of cutting the flower, moving to sunlight and then holding the flower and bee in one hand and the camera in the other, the bee tends to get done and leave. Sometimes, you can't "just move" And the best light is not always out in direct light, esp not at mid-day. Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:04:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Riach Subject: Door Bottom sealing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rising Hinges (Falling hinges when closing) help to press door bottom seals onto the floor on closing. They are however self closing and door "hold opens" are required. There are also rubber tube seals the frames of which can be inserted flush into the floor. The rubber tube stands proud of the floor (to seal the door bottom clearance gap) but is soft enough not to inhibit the passage of a trolley wheel. Alan Riach :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:02:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: dance language vs. odour Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net, PayneT@missouri.edu, tpaine@ucrac1.ucr.edu, rosinbio@yahoo.com, barry@birkey.com, ckstarr99@hotmail.com, bayer@sbceo.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Barry Donovan disagreed in part with my comments about von Frisch's early odor-search hypothesis, which some of us stumbled onto only after having independently come upon much the same hypothesis through extensive experimentation. In his posting Barry included his "comprehensive hypothesis," the weakness of which I had already covered in my 2002 forum paper in the JOURNAL OF INSECT BEHAVIOR -- starting in the middle of p. 870 now available at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/jib2002 Unfortunately, Barry confused the issue in a paragraph of his latest posting when he wrote: >But, the point is that when von Frisch discovered the dance language, >this new hypothesis supplanted his odour hypothesis. In the light of new >data, von Frisch rejected his odour hypothesis in favour of his dance >language hypothesis. Note Barry's comment: "...when von Frisch discovered [THE] dance language, this new hypothesis supplanted his odour hypothesis". That sentence contains an inherent contradiction. Hypotheses don't become facts (as implied in the first part of his sentence) and a hypothesis doesn't disappear because one favors a new hypothesis. Science is a process, not a series of rigid accomplishments that are "not open to question" (as some like to believe). On that point see: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/biossep1993 I thank Barry, though, for the opportunity to clarify this point. The root of the bee language controversy rests on disagreement about assumptions. Those who use expressions such as "their language," "bee language," and "the language of bees" reveal their commitment to that interpretation as fact, not as the hypothesis it is. Facts are something else again -- such as: bees do a dance, that dance has distance and direction information (but terribly inaccurate), recruits search for a long time before they find the "target" food source (but most of them don't make it), recruits cannot find a food source without odor. That last point is why the topic is so difficult. One cannot conduct an experiment to support the dance language hypothesis without using an odor cue (though a few have claimed to have done so on a limited basis). Hence, one can never conclude from results obtained that the searching bees had not found the source by using odor (whether intentional or inadvertent) instead of physical information obtained from the waggle dance maneuver in the dark of the hive. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:21:40 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: pests and disease Lloyd Spear said: > I am sorry that... others felt I was attacking migratory operations. It is interesting that comments that are clearly NOT "an attack" result in over-reaction, prompting an apology where one was not required. Maybe we have stumbled onto something here. Just as an intellectual exercise, let's see how "migratory operations" might stand up to an actual "attack". (This is a test, this is only a test. There is no need for any over-reaction or Ad Hominem retaliation.) As an extreme example, let's assume that Dr. Evil (from the 'Austin Powers' movies) has noticed both the increased prices for honey, and the strong demand for pollination, and decides to get into beekeeping in the USA. He gets into migratory beekeeping, since this is what other larger US beekeepers do. "If I run 10,000 hives, I can make..." (dramatic chord) "...ONE MILLION dollars!" (raises pinky to corner of mouth) So, let's take the paraphrased statements of a "typical and rational" migratory beekeeper as offered by Lloyd, and allow Dr. Evil to adopt them as his own philosophy. Let's pick Lloyd as an example of a non-migratory beekeeper with apiaries near the area where Dr. Evil will pollinate crops. > His attitude is that he has to make a living. Exactly why is Dr. Evil entitled to "make a living" keeping bees? How is he entitled to "make a living" when doing so increases costs and reduces production for those who are affected by contamination from Dr. Evil's operation, those who might LIKE to be able to quit their day jobs, and make even a small income as full-time beekeepers? Is Dr. Evil MORE entitled to "make a living" than someone who stays "local", like a Lloyd? Is Dr. Evil entitled to "make a living" at the expense of someone who stays "local", like a Lloyd? > He feels as if he runs a first-class operation, but any operation > as large as his will reflect the conditions where he keeps bees. > Which is all over. Let's examine this highly creative rationalization. How is introducing a pest or disease (let's use SHB as an example) to a new area any different from any other form of "pollution"? How is it any different from simply crushing the hives of non-migratory beekeepers with the wheels of his truck? How is it different from a pesticide kill? How wide a swath of destruction can Dr. Evil leave in his wake before someone complains? How much destruction can Dr. Evil do before those affected put two and two together? While it is understandable that no approach can assure 100% certainty in the fight against pests and diseases, and no beekeeper can expect to avoid "the conditions" in his area, what happens when "the conditions" of concern were created and delivered by Dr. Evil himself? > Because he 'has' to migrate he is likely to spread pests and disease, > and that is just the way it is. More or less...these are his words, > they are not an apology but an explanation. Well, at least Dr. Evil does not deny that he is more likely to spread pests and diseases as he drags his hives around. But Dr. Evil CHOOSES to migrate, an opportunistic and deliberate exploitation of an artificial situation unique to the 20th Century "developed nations" (large monocultures and cheap fuel prices), one that may not exist for much longer. One cost-savings that Dr. Evil enjoys is that he avoids some large fraction of his "overwintering costs" by hiring a trucker to haul his bees away from "winter". Another of the cost-saving advantages that Dr. Evil enjoys is that he does NOT have to make any effort to control pests and diseases beyond his own estimate of his own "economic threshold". Beekeepers who are affected by his decision to "go migratory" are forced to pay costs that he has "externalized". (Or in plain English, "imposed upon other beekeepers".) Should migratory beekeepers be held to a standard more strict than non-migratory beekeepers? If they aren't, what happens over time? Since we are dealing with Dr. Evil here, let's consider the usual motivation of all evil masterminds - "world domination". As long as fuel remains cheap, Dr. Evil's plan would logically be to suppress the development of competition in the form of local pollinating beekeepers and large non-migratory honey producers in multiple ways: a) By making assurances that he will deliver large numbers of hives under a single contract, and then playing the growers off against regulatory officials who might try to impose a quarantine to protect the area from diseases and/or pests. b) By offering such large numbers of hives from a single source, Dr. Evil also reduces the price paid for pollination hives, and thereby discourages the forming of pollination co-ops where multiple beekeepers might pool their hives and meet the needs of one or more nearby growers. (While offering lower prices via economies of scale is not "unfair competition" in itself, it does tend suppress competition. Look at Wal-Mart's effect on locally-owned and managed stores.) c) By spreading pests and diseases that would otherwise not appear in the area, raising costs and hive losses for potential competitors who might otherwise be able expand and satisfy the pollination demand with local hives. d) By creating a situation where migration to warmer climates for "overwintering" becomes a REQUIRED aspect of beekeeping, so that the stresses of diseases and pests are not combined with the stress inherent in "overwintering", a fatal combination. e) By dismissing out of hand any approach to disease and pest control tailor-made for his unique way of keeping bees (which means that he can dismiss an effective, but labor-intensive approach to controlling pests and diseases as "impractical", when what it really is nothing but "more costly" (i.e., might require hives to be looked at more than once per fiscal quarter). f) Since Dr. Evil "makes a living" keeping bees, he fights honey imports from other countries, even though the beekeepers in those other countries ALSO "make a living" keeping bees, and produce honey that is cheaper than Dr. Evil's honey simply because they are willing (or forced by circumstance) to accept a much lower standard of living than Dr. Evil would. Wow, Dr. Evil can become the ONLY beekeeper of any size in short order! But is Dr. Evil strictly liable for the environmental damage he causes? Likely not. Proof is hard to come by, and the henchmen of Dr. Evil can make sure that not a word is spoken in criticism of Dr. Evil by repeating the mantra "Dr. Evil is one of the biggest beekeepers on the planet", attempting to preserve the artificial perception of a connection between "size of operation" and "quality of operations". Dr. Evil's henchmen can even browbeat Lloyd into APOLOGIZING for daring to even appear to question the impact of Dr. Evil's attempts to make a profit on Lloyd's attempt to also make a profit. In actual fact, Dr. Evil hires henchmen to do the actual beekeeping work, and still other henchmen to drive the trucks, so even if someone were to complain loudly, Dr. Evil could simply blame "an employee's error", and fire a henchman or two to placate the outraged, and avoid regulation. Dr. Evil need never even see a hive. Dr. Evil need not even leave his lair on some remote island. Dr. Evil need never pick up a hive tool. That's what would happen if Dr. Evil got into beekeeping. Would he make "one MILLION dollars"? Likely not - the margins are very slim, and the risks are high. Would he make more money than he would cost others? I'm not sure. He might, then again, he might not. Next week, we'll look at how St. Francis of Assisi might get into "migratory beekeeping", and compare. jim (Its PARODY. Laugh! Any similarity between this parody and your reality is completely intentional.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:04:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jack Grimshaw Subject: EAS 2003 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen, As a EAS member,hobbyist beekeeper,and lurker on Bee-L;I feel I must respond to your posts concerning the EAS 2003 meeting in Maine.I urge you to attend,if not for your sake,then for ours.The benifits of a meeting such as this are not the scripted lectures that so many meetings seem to have but the shared beekeeping stories and experiences.Most of the sesions are informal and everyone is encouraged to participate.Its like Bee-L only in person.Having visited your web site and read your posts,I know you will have something to say.I ,and I'm sure Jim( who,although quite an accurrate shot,tends to shoot from the hip)Fischer,would love to hear it. The 25$ usage fee(which also covers the noon meal) is for people like me.I have camped for the last two conferences and what I save in dorm rates more than pays for the short course.(Whites Beach Campground-90$ for the week-tent site-supposedly 10 min. away)Each meeting venue has its quirks,and i"m sure this fee could have been tacked on to the conference registration instead.I'm sure we can find room for your camper (land yacht) somewhere but they probably won't let you sleep in it.If you stay at the campground,just hang your thumb at the exit with your cardboard EAS sign and if I don't pick you up,some other beekeeper/camper will. Enjoy your trip East at any rate.I recommend Acadia National Park in Me.for you flatlanders,but stay on the east side of Somes Sound to avoid the crowds.Somes Sound View Campground in Somesville used to be good but reservations most likely will be needed.On PEI there used to be a beautiful Provincial campground on the S/E shore.And then there was that campsite on the bluff over looking the Atlantic in Cape Breton.................. And an aside to Jim Fischer.Your comparison of an EAS meeting to a Grateful Dead concert I think is a stretch.The vendors are sanctioned,their wares are legal,the traffic isn't tied up for miles,and that sweet smell in the air is the honey barbeque sauce in the dining hall. Jack Grimshaw who enjoys Dead shows and EAS meetings :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:10:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: honey processing area question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob, Would it be easier to build a wooden bridge over the threshold? You could make it at a shallow climb so the barrels would easily go over the hump. Hope this helps. Garry Libby Attleboro, Massachusetts, U.S.A. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 19:30:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com In-Reply-To: <036d01c334de$e604bc80$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 17 Jun 2003 at 10:44, James Fischer wrote: > Claiming "bias" is a >>>VERY<<< serious accusation. > Such an accusation should be clearly proven, or withdrawn publicly. I'm having a bit of trouble with the logic here. On the one hand you say the maps "are the work product of the best and brightest available." On the other hand you casually dismiss the SC map which shows the area where migratories are, is the least infected area of the SC. coastal plain (for beetles). You can't have it both ways, my friend. Are the maps reliable? Even when they show what you don't want to see? Question: How much "up close and personal" experience have you actually had with the afrobeetles? Finally: "Nothing would make me happier than to find out that SHB is not spread by beekeepers..." You make this sound as if you are reflecting what I said. You are not. I would not make such a simplistic statement. There are numerous mechanism of spread. I thought I was clear on that. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 19:25:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: William Bartlett Subject: Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Bee-L's, It never ceases to amaze me about how many things you can get into = because of beekeeping.=20 The latest thing has been the discussion of photography and digital = cameras. Other things include medicine, religion, history, insects( bees = themselves), politics, cooking woodworking, pesticides (chemicals), = beeswax and all that goes with it, marketing, pollination, bee diseases, = public speaking and I am sure you can name more. I have learned more = about trees and flowers than I ever thought I would. =20 I can't think of another hobby that has more roads to turn on than = beekeeping. Bill Bartlett :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:17:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: EAS 2003 In-Reply-To: <1d4.c1ee549.2c21f59c@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Jack Grimshaw > And an aside to Jim Fischer.Your comparison of an EAS meeting to a > Grateful Dead concert I think is a stretch.The vendors are > sanctioned,their wares are legal,the traffic isn't tied up for miles,and that sweet > smell in the air is the honey barbeque sauce in the dining hall. > > Jack Grimshaw who enjoys Dead shows and EAS meetings Just as a totally OT aside, the vendors at Dead concerts are now sanctioned. Preemptive injunctions were filed by the Dead and others for Bonnaroo this past weekend. http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_news/article/0,1406,KNS_347_2034616,00.htm l However, traffic was suitable tied up for hours, despite their own temporary exit from the interstate (easily a 12 hour wait on I-24 alone) and 40 toll takers at the entrance (replacing the many fewer last year and no special exit, which resulted in > 24 hour tie ups on the interstate in that area). Here's hoping that EAS does not experience similar difficulties. Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:33:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: dance language vs. odour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm a very longstanding fan of Adrian's and very much appreciate his insistance on evidence over rank and politics and his problem with what the Emporer chooses to say he wears... Not to be too flippant here., but.. really people? Question: How does anyone, anything find food? Answer: Absolutely any -- and every -- way we possibly can. Food is the most basic need. If it is not satisfied, the rest (even sex) is moot. We organisms -- from single cells on up -- focus every facility -- no matter how weak and undeveloped -- in that direction. We read maps, we listen to rumours, we take what is served, we watch what our neighbours carry home, and we follow our nose. We beg, we borrow, we pillage, and we intuit. We have even been known to eat our neighbours and mates. We don't just talk about food. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:14:03 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") In-Reply-To: <3EF0BDEA.22115.2DF244@localhost> Dave said: > I'm having a bit of trouble with the logic here. Here's the logic, in a nutshell: 1) The patterns of SHB infestation are "spotty" at both the "national" and "state" levels. 2) The discovery of an "infested spot" prompts careful inspection of the surrounding areas, so the "spotty" nature of the map is not due to lack of looking. 3) Many infested spots are far, far away from any other infested spots. This limits the possible primary mechanisms for the spread of SHB to a very small number of specific types of long-distance movement. > On the other hand you casually dismiss the SC map which shows > the area where migratories are, is the least infected area of > the SC. coastal plain (for beetles). Neither the map (nor your statements) were "dismissed". In fact, a question was asked that remains unanswered: "In the South Carolina map http://www.ceris.purdue.edu/napis/pests/shb/imap/scshb.html we see three counties were SHB was 'not found' as of 11/40/2002, but all the counties that surround them are counties where SHB was listed as 'established'. How did that happen? There is no apparent natural protection for these counties that might block the 'natural' spread of SHB, so we are left with the conclusion that such a strange pattern could not be a result of 'natural' spread." The question does not "dismiss" the SC map, the question accepts the SC map as gospel truth, and asks "Why?" "How'd that happen?" "How could this be 'natural spread'?" "What kind of spread might this be?" > You can't have it both ways, my friend. Are the maps reliable? > Even when they show what you don't want to see? Who wants something "both ways"? I didn't question the reliability of the maps - you did. I still think that the maps show exactly what they appear to show. > There are numerous mechanism of spread. I'm still waiting for someone to list just a few of these "numerous mechanisms", and explain how each matches the unique patterns of infestation shown on the maps at hand. I've offered one explanation that seems to fit the data very well, and I've explained how, in my view, most other possible mechanisms don't fit the data, but I'm open to any education or enlightenment that directly addresses the facts, rather than arguing around them. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 22:33:13 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Dance Language AND/OR Odor Adrian said: > One cannot conduct an experiment to support the dance language > hypothesis without using an odor cue... I can think of a test that might help. Maybe someone has tried this, but I've yet to read about it. The basis for this possibly unprecedented breakthrough in experimental entomology is (like most of my ideas) based upon a very bad and very old joke: "My dog has no nose." "Poor dog. How does he smell?" "Awful!" 1) Take a small observation hive of bees, catch all the adult bees, and remove their antennae, while taking care not to damage their Johnston's Organs. (This technique has been used in studies of bee responsiveness to airborne sound, so the actual surgery, while tedious, is possible, and does not appear to harm navigational or flying abilities.) 2) If they can still forage and bring back the groceries without their odor-detecting hardware, then odor can thereby be demonstrated to play only a minor role, or, at best, is only one of multiple possible independent approaches to foraging. 3) If they can't bring back any groceries, then odor is CRUCIAL to successful foraging, and only the question is "do they still travel to vectors indicated by 'dances'?" remains to narrow down if odor is merely a "final approach" tool or a complete "foraging system" in its own right. Of course, I'm assuming here that: a) The bees will even attempt to forage after such surgery. b) That "antenna touches" are not mission critical to communication, even though such touches are observed in many (most? all?) dance sessions. c) That the taste receptors on the proboscis are alone enough for a bee to be able to judge sugar content of nectar, and thus make a valid "recruitment" decision. d) I'm likely forgetting lots of other things. (I'm not going to maim a bunch of bees in cold blood anyway. I have neither the stomach for it, nor steady enough hands.) > Hence, one can never conclude from results obtained that the > searching bees had not found the source by using odor Down here in the salt mines of experimental hard science (where men are men, and women are women, but particles are not always particles), we are big fans of Karl Popper, who offered: Evidence in support of any theory should be presented as a serious but unsuccessful attempt to falsify the theory. Any theory that appears to avoid "falsifiability" is either not yet well thought out, or was mishandled by the mail room, and should be forwarded to the cosmology department. (OK, I'm paraphrasing here, but that's what we do with them.) jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:21:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Feral Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob wrote, on 16 June, in response to "chemical control of varroa," FERAL SWARMS??? Most swarms people are catching are coming from swarms from managed colonies. The only swarm calls I get are in the area of one of my yards and has been the case for many years. I suspect there are other beekeepers in Yoon's area or the swarms may be coming from his own bee hives. I'd like to challenge your notion that swarms are coming from managed hives, and not feral colonies. For the last five years, I've been trapping what I believe are feral swarms. I also know of long-term, established feral colonies living year after year in the same old trees, brick apartment buildings, and old homes without the aid of beekeeper intervention or interference. Having caught swarms in these areas using pheromone baited swarm traps, I cannot prove these swarms come from these suspected feral colonies. To the best of my knowledge there are no managed hives nearby or in anyone's backyard. Having hived several swarms successfully (not all of them are viable) I've had increasing numbers of hived swarms that show no visible varroa infestations using sticky boards and using my capping scratcher on the drone brood cells. Two of such colonies caught as feral swarms are now four years old (with superseded queens) and I have not treated them with any chemical miticides. Having learned more about IPM techniques to monitor mite levels, I'm pursuing closer approaches to see if this is something that will last more than season. The next step then is to raise queens from these colonies. And my yards do have varroa in some colonies, monitored by sticky boards and drone cells. Having tried the so-called "natural" approach, I've balked at using Apistan. Some of my colonies have succumb to PMS and died out in the winter. These colonies that died were purchased as nucs and packages from well regarded commercial producers, and some of my hived swarms died as untreated colonies. Do feral colonies exist and are these swarms genetically disposed to mite resistance? I think so, but more testing will be needed to confirm this suspicion. And can these swarms coexist in a yard that has known varroa infestations and a tolerance to my management approaches (including my incompetence)? Time will tell. Thus far this year, I've caught, trapped and retrieved 30 swarms in the Jackson (Missouri) and Cape Girardeau areas. The last dozen swarms have been pretty small, but the early swarms are out producing the packages I purchased earlier this spring. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 10:08:11 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Unsuccessful queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hallo. I need to ask for some advice from those of you out there who raise queens. I've been trying for four years now with very little success and it's driving me nuts. I know all the theory from reading a number of books on the subject, and i must honestly say that the three first summers, i've only tried once or twice so i don't have a very long record of failures (or experience). Anyway - here's what i do and what results i get: I use a starter, into which i shake a lot of bees. I give them frames with plenty of honey and pollen, no brood, no queen (i DO know the theory of this). I have also tried a very strong queenless starter colony with lots of capped brood added about ten days before the cells were inserted, to make sure there is an abundance of young bees. I have been using a Jenter box, which is a gadget where you lock up the queen for a day and then pick out larvae the right age for days later. This year, i'm grafting by hand, using a size 00 pen, which i found even easier than using the Jenter thing. I have a steady hand and good eyesight. I have no problems finding larva the right age and i have no problems transferring it to the cell cups. I give the larvae to my starter and let it sit there for 24 hours. I then transfer my cell frame to the brood box of a strong colony, where i've put some open brood and pollen to ensure the cells are surrounded by bees that'll feed them. When i transfer the cell frame, it appears the bees have accepted the cells. They're clustered on the cell cups and appear to be feeding the larvae. After the cells are capped, i put protectors on them. Sometimes acceptance will be low, like 5-6 cells out of 15. Other times, almost all of them have been accepted and capped. Now, on the day when the queens are supposed to hatch, i take the cells out. By shining a flashlight through the cell, i can clearly see there is not a good queen in there. The cell will contain one of three things: -A small undeveloped bee, maybe a worker bee, still white with purple eyes -A small fully developed, but dead, bee -A black mess on the bottom of the cell (rare) Please give me some good advice. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ------------------------------------------------- WebMail från Tele2 http://www.tele2.se ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 04:07:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Feral Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Grant said: I'd like to challenge your notion that swarms are coming from managed hives, and not feral colonies. The notion is not only mine but the opinion of many researchers. We can discuss the issue all we want but the issue can not be proven conclusivly either way. Because you live in Missouri and in an area well known to me I might be able to shed light on your swarms. If you had not the above would be all I could add to the discussion. Grant said: For the last five years, I've been trapping what I believe are feral swarms. You are in an area worked by the largest beekeeping operation in the state. Delta Bee was running around 8,000 hives last time we talked . You are also on the main north/south pollination route for Jester Bee out of West Ridge, Arkansas( just south of Missouri line) . Kevin was running around 3,500 hives last time we talked. I have talked to a couple other beekeepers at Missouri State Beekeepers meetings which have said they live in the Cape Girardeau area. Although you may have not observed hive movement activity quite a bit is going on and with one of the above without netting. Grant said: I also know of long-term, established feral colonies living year after year in the same old trees, brick apartment buildings, and old homes without the aid of beekeeper intervention or interference. The possibility of you being right exists but swarms love to swarm into places which have had swarms before. Proving those swarms are from a local established hive or a swarm which has the power to control varroa is hard. Five years ago I would say generally speaking very very few swarms could survive varroa over two years. We have now got swarms (Russian/SMR/ survivor) which can live longer without treatment and very possibly up to (and maybe longer) than the five year period you talk about. Keven Jester has bought Russian/SMR breeder queens and is raising & selling queens not very far from you. To quote from the Jester Bee Co. add running in the bee magazines: "We use Russian,SMR and Minnesota hygienic breeder queens from Glenn Apiaries in Fallbrook, California." It is highly likely that beekeepers in your area would buy and pick up queens and packages from Kevin and the swarms from those packages would be tolerant of varroa like you describe. It has been around four (or maybe five years) since I was at Jester Bee on business. Kevin was showing me some of his queens he raised for my opinion. They looked excellent! Neal Bergman of Delta Bee will not talk about his operation or methods except with his closest friends. I hear what is going on from a couple of those at times. About the only information I have heard lately is from a USDA offical (last fall 2002) that Neal has been getting large bee kills from the government Boll Weavil eradication program and was wanting compensation for losses. I am amazed at the USDA at times. The beekeeper can prove the government plane crop dusted the cotton in broad daylight with his bees in the field. Write the check and pay the beekeeper. Even the money the beekeeper (Delta Bee) is asking will not cover losses. Sorry for getting off topic. Grant said: Having caught swarms in these areas using pheromone baited swarm traps, I cannot prove these swarms come from these suspected feral colonies. To the best of my knowledge there are no managed hives nearby or in anyone's backyard. The bad news is you are in an area of huge numbers of hive movement and the good news is both these guys are both excellent beekeepers which are up on the latest in beekeeping (and queens). Grant said: The next step then is to raise queens from these colonies. Sounds like you are doing all the right things. Hope to see you at a Missouri State beekeepers meeting. I hope the feral bee population in Missouri is coming back but the best predictions made by Dr. Shiminuki was around twenty years once we found a varroa tolerant bee. "Shim" did point out that those areas around large beekeeping operations using varroa tolerant bees would be the first to repopulate do to the huge amount of swarming from large operations. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:32:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Too late? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Charles B. Cromer" > Hello, > Just was wondering if it is too late in the year to start up another > hive. I am thinking it is, but have another hive ready to go and got that > itch.... I am in Panama City FL Charles, I live in the Northeast (Vermont), and nucs aren't generally available until May-June, which leaves a season around 4-5 months long. If your last good nectar flow is at least four or five months away, I'd think you'd be OK starting a hive, especially with the mild winters in Florida. If you start with two frames of sealed brood/bees and a queen, you'll probably wind up with a strong single story hive by winter, which should winter over in your area (although you might need to feed early next spring). A Carniolan queen would seem a good choice - they build VERY fast, and generally winter over on less stores than Italians. The SMR Carnies seem especially good, from my limited experience. I wouldn't hesitate to supplement with syrup to help them draw comb, since a two or three frame nuc won't have a lot of foragers. A couple of quarts of syrup go a long way toward getting things going with a small nuc, especially this late. It might also be a good idea to take an additional frame of drawn comb out of the donor hive for the nuc to provide more immediate space for the new queen to lay. One small word of caution - if you "steal" bees from a hive, you will be trading honey for bees, resulting in somewhat less yields from that hive. A deep frame holds about 5600 larvae +/-, so at approx. 1,000 eggs/day max, taking two full frames of brood would set the hive back about 11 days. BTW - I think we all know and understand that "itch" :) Good luck. Regards, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 09:13:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stephen and Gail Mitchell Subject: queen rearing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mats, It is unclear from your post whether the finisher colony to which you transfer the cells from the starter is queenless. I use a queenright finisher (two boxes high) where the queen is confined to the lower box by an excluder. The new cells (from a starter) are placed into the upper box, near a frame containing young larvae. There is no other open brood. This works quite well. Both the starter and finisher colony receive thin syrup and a pattie while they perform their respective tasks. Steve Mitchell Steve and Gail Mitchell Bee Haven Farm 4820 Wilson Rd. Duncan, BC V9L 6L6 Phone(250)746-9916 Fax (250) 746-9233 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 21:05:51 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Sv: [BEE-L] queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Stephen and Gail Mitchell" wrote: > It is unclear from your post whether the finisher colony to which you > transfer the cells from the starter is queenless. The finisher is queenright and the queen is kept in the lower part by an excluder. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ------------------------------------------------- WebMail från Tele2 http://www.tele2.se ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 16:06:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Unsuccessful queen rearing In-Reply-To: <20030619080812.KLPP11955.fep01-svc.swip.net@mta-int.swip.n et> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I typically raise only a small number of queens for myself, so my methods differ slightly from big queen breeders and the methods often listed in books requiring a starter, finisher, etc. Normally I place grafted cells in a strong queenless hive and leave them there for both starting and finishing. This may be a hive that I found just recently queenless, or a hive in which I removed the queen, and usually a couple of frames for a split. It seems to help acceptance if the hive was queenless for at least a day. Amount of brood in the hive never has been a problem because I have only raised about 10 at once. After 24 hours I check to see how the grafts were accepted. Sometimes acceptance is very good, other times marginal, but I think it's mostly due to my lack of skill and practice grafting. I have been told that the cells can be started and finished in a queen right colony by a respectable breeder given the queen is separated from the cells, but have not tried it yet myself. I don't isolate the queen before grafting, so the age may vary by half a day or so. Thus, the day before they are to emerge I remove all the cells and place them in hives needing a queen or into 3 frame nuces, leaving behind one cell to requeen the starter/finisher. The only failures I've had are due to poor mating weather or a cold day when the cells had to be moved into nucs, resulting in a few queens dead in the cell. I really don't do anything special. I have found that spritzing the bar and cell cups with sugar water (and honey-b-healthy) improves acceptance, but it may be that the small amount in the cell cups simply makes grafting the larvae without damage easier. (Just read a study that indicated that priming cells had a positive affect on acceptance, though double grafting did not.) I do not use cell protectors for fear of damaging the cells. I have some, but the just seem to small for many of the cells produced, and many of the cells have lots of extra wax and comb on them making the cell protectors unusable. I do reuse plastic cell cups without problems (even though the catalogues say that acceptance is reduced when cells are reused.) Just last weekend I did a small test just to see for myself. I took grafts from one colony, half into new cups, half into used (with the wax scraped off to the top of the plastic cell, and any debris in the cup removed), on the same bar. Acceptance was considerably higher with the old cups. A second trial earlier this week showed no difference between old and new (all were accepted.). So I don't think there is any real difference between old and new (though there is a lack of my grafting skill at times :) This certainly is no answer to your problem, but I really didn't see anything in your description that was wrong, nor have I found the problems you are having (short of one experience with cold weather). -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:46:19 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Dance language vs. odour. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian Wenner seems not to understand that my words"this new hypothesis" mean that von Frsich's discovery of the honey bee dance language was an hypothesis. There is no implication that the hypothesis has become a fact, and so no contradiction. In fact, when I say in my next sentence that "von Frisch rejected his odour hypothesis in favour of his dance language hypothesis" I have said twice that von Frisch's dance language idea is an hypothesis. Adrian says that the information in the dance is "terribly inaccurate". But clearly sometimes we humans have so much trouble understanding our written language that it isn't surprising that there may be difficulties when we attempt to fathom the information that might be imparted between insects by their gyrations. In his 2002 paper The Elusive Honey Bee Dance "Language" Hypothesis Adrian quotes Popper and Lakatos as saying in effect that a theory must be falsifiable. My dictionary says a theory is "opposite to or opposed to hypothesis". According to my Concise Oxford Dictionary, an hypothesis is "proposition made as basis for reasoning, without assumption of its truth; supposition made as starting point for further investigation from known facts". The starting point for my comprehensive hypothesis is that the dance contains distance and direction information, something with which Adrian agrees. Adrian called my hypothesis "another ad hoc modification employed to rescue the dance language hypothesis". It isn't, it is an idea which I believe presents a new and different view of the whole area. Adrian says that many recruits take a long time to reach the food, and some never do. As an example of the application of my hypothesis, these bees might be using the information about the location of the food to avoid heading to the already discovered food, in order to set out in new directions to search for Adrian's odour plumes which are emanating from new, undiscovered sources of the same food. If in an experimental situation there are no or just a few of these undiscovered sources, then many bees may search for a long time before possibly giving up on what is a fruitless search and heading for the already discovered food, or perhaps giving up altogether. An interesting aspect of von Frisch's approach is that in the light of new information he had the flexibility to change his outlook. In their 1990 book on the bee `language' (ie hypothesis!) Wenner and Wells point out how common it is for persons to become so wedded to a favorite idea that they ignore new ideas. Well after around 30 years since the revival of von Frisch's rejected odour hypothesis, there is now a new `comprehensive' hypothesis. Wenner and Wells in their 1990 book showed how the criteria that are generally accepted as indicative of the truth change about every 30-50 or so years. Nothing is more certain than we can look forward to even more changes in ideas about whether bees use dance information. Regards, Barry Donovan Private Bag 4704 Christchurch New Zealand. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:23:09 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Unsuccessful queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mats Andersson wrote: > After the cells are capped, i put protectors on them. I believe you have your problem there. Just capped cells are very fragile and should not be touched if possible. If you handle them before the pupa is formed, keep the cell upside down when fitting the protector. What happens is the larvae fall down from the royal jelly it's feeding on in the top of cell, and end up on bottom where it can't crawl back up to the feed again. Wait until day 10 after grafting and you will bee safe. Happy Midsummer! -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:14:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: EAS 2003 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Sorry for the reply delay, I've had some hardware problems. Jack Grimshaw said in reply to a post of Allen Dick on Wednesday, June 18... > I urge you to attend,if not for your sake,then for ours. > The benifits of a meeting such as this are not the scripted > lectures that so many meetings seem to have but the > shared beekeeping stories and experiences. I beleive that Allen himself is adequately aware of this feature of large scale beekeeping conferences. But I would like to stress this point for those that may not have been to such gatherings before. Yes, there are formal lectures, but there are also fellow beekeepers in large numbers, this gives the opportunity for chat and discussion on any level and about any aspect of beekeeping. In a few weeks time it will be my favourite conference, that at Gormanston in Ireland... July 21st to July 26th. http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/gormanston2002.html I have promoted this conference before, but I am not one of the organisers, I am one of the punters and I promote it because I like to meet other beekeepers and chat with them. It is not too late to sign up for this year and flights from the American continent are cheap at the moment. Best Regards & 73s...Dave Cushman G8MZY Emergency conditions due to lightning strike http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 06:53:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Unsuccessful queen rearing In-Reply-To: <20030619080812.KLPP11955.fep01-svc.swip.net@mta-int.swip.n et> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >I need to ask for some advice from those of you out there who raise >queens. I've been trying for four years now >with very little success and it's driving me nuts. >/Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden I have a method of raising cells that you might try. I think it the best way to raise some queen cells for the apiary. Select a really strong colony. Separate the broodnest, placing sealed brood in the bottom box...with queen...open brood in the top box. Place an excluder between the two. Replace any supers on top. Nine days later, check entire colony for queen cells. Destroy any that are found. Place a feeder on colony. Next day is grafting day. In the morning, remove colony from stand. Replace bottom board on stand. Place a super on bottom, and the top brood box on super. Remove two combs from sides of top box, and spread combs apart in middle. Place a comb well filled with pollen in the space. Shake six combs of young bees off open brood from bottom box...into top box. Don't take the old queen! Place another super on the top box, replace the feeder. Close up box with old queen and move to another beeyard. You have created a populous queenless colony...full of young bees...with not one larvae to feed. They get frantic...as they are hoplessly queenless. In the afternoon, give graft, placing the larvae next to the pollen frame. Cover, and feed, feed, feed! Five days later, bring back the old queen. Place her hive on the stand, an excluder, and then the cell builder. On the tenth day after grafting, the cells are ready to use. I like this way, because no extra equipment is needed. No need to rob brood from other colonies. The cell builder can be returned to production after the cells are removed. Try this method, Mats...and tell us how you did. I think you will like the results. I place about 45 grafted cups per cell builder, and often get 40 or more nice cells. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:17:57 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: Unsuccessful queen rearing In-Reply-To: <20030619080812.KLPP11955.fep01-svc.swip.net@mta-int.swip.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Subject: [BEE-L] Unsuccessful queen rearing > I use a starter, into which i shake a lot of bees. I give them > frames with plenty of honey and pollen, no brood, no queen (i DO > know the theory of this). I would give the starter some frames with capped brood! > I give the larvae to my starter and let it sit there for 24 > hours. Here I would let them sit until capped, hence the added sealed brood to assure enough young nurse bees is present. Then I would transfer the capped cells to either the incubator or a strong hive where the queen have been isolated from the spot where the capped queen cells goes. Bee very carefull handling capped queen cells. They are very sensitive to temperature and shaking. If you reuse the starter then a renewal of capped brood cells must be taken care of. A starter must always be boiling from bees. Queen breeding always involves a lot of young bees, so it will also have influence of your honey income if you produce a lot of queens. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 07:31:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: EAS 2003 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave said: Yes, there are formal lectures, but there are also fellow beekeepers in large numbers, this gives the opportunity for chat and discussion on any level and about any aspect of beekeeping. I, like my friend Allen, attend many bee meetings and conventions. Unlike many of my friends which are only at the meeting to visit I need to see a list of the lectures so I can plan my stay. *I see any event which can not provide such a list as unorganized (sorry EAS).* My life runs off lists and schedules. Otherwise I would never get accomplished what I do which amazes many people. If you read Allen's diary you will see organization is the way he operates. We all like to visit about bees and beekeeping but I will not miss an important (to me) lecture I have traveled great distance to hear visiting. Those which have met me at conventions will agree that I will visit as long as a lecture I am interested in is not going on but will bow out of conversation when the lecture is starting. I also disappear (as does Allen) and go sightseeing when lectures are going on which I have heard several times in a year or on a subject I am not interested in or perhaps could be giving the lecture on myself. Those organizing events like EAS please organize your events early for people like Allen and myself. I have never attended EAS because the event comes at my busy time of the year and simply can not leave. Perhaps as I try to get to the level Allen has reduced to I will in the future be able to attend a EAS meeting in the future. For those which wonder why ABF, AHPA and Apiary Inspectors of America meetings are *always* held in January now you know. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:18:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: raising queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Now, on the day when the queens are supposed to hatch, i take the cells out. By shining a flashlight through the cell, i can clearly see there is not a good queen in there. The cell will contain one of three things: -A small undeveloped bee, maybe a worker bee, still white with purple eyes -A small fully developed, but dead, bee -A black mess on the bottom of the cell (rare)" Is the brood box you have transferred the bees to queenless? It should be! (One can produce queen cells in a queen right colony, but beginners should not try.) I suspect it is queenless, although Mats did not say. I suspect that there are not enough bees in the colony and the larvae are not being fed properly. A very successful queen breeder I know wants 5 kg. of bees in his cell building colonies! That is a lot of bees. Moreover, these bees should be obtained by shaking from the brood nest on a warm, sunny day when most of the field bees are out foraging. (It is likely that the beekeeper will have to shake from several hives, to get 5 kg. of bees.) In this manner, most of the bees for the brood hive will be nurse bees so (1) they are 'primed' to feed larvae and (2) they are far less likely to drift back to the hive they were shaken from. The shaken bees should then be put in the brood hive overnight before installing the cell bar with the queen cups. They will know they are queenless and will literally run to start feeding the queen cells. If you can, establish the brood box at least 4 kilometers away from the hives you shook the bees from. If you cannot do this, expect to find that in the morning about 50% of the bees you shook have gone back to their hives! I think this will solve your problems. Good luck. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:29:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: EAS 2003 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Unlike many of my friends which are only at the meeting to visit I need to > see a list of the lectures so I can plan my stay. > > *I see any event which can not provide such a list as unorganized (sorry > EAS).* http://www.easternapiculture.org/programs/2003/program/ A list exists. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:50:20 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: raising queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I always make up the starter and then graft straight away and give them = the graft, often with 15 minutes of making the starter. I get very good = acceptance and very good quality queens. The acceptance is often 100%! Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 18:07:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can think of several ways for the maps to be "spotty" in the sourwood areas, yet still not require falsification by inspectors. In fact, for the maps to be totally "accurate", yet there still be SHB in those areas (at some time of year, if not at all times). Those who move to sourwood here never leave their bees over winter there, due to the environment not being as suitable for overwintering or spring build up (versus their home apiaries). I would assume the same is true of migratory beekeepers in the SC area. To be on the map, a report of SHB is required. If there are no permanent beekeepers there, the only ones to report are the migratory beekeepers. I doubt many would do so if they already have SHB (after all, that would be like calling an inspector to tell them they had varroa -- they know they have it, what is there to report?). If surveys of hives are done, it would depend on both the time of year (are there hives there just for sourwood) and registration of hives (do you register your sourwood locations?). Until a hobbyist in the area gets infected, reports seldom get filed. At least in TN, several hobbyists have reported being infected with SHB while their bees were on sourwood, but the beetles were not found until after they returned (infecting more area at that point). In other states however, hives are moved into more suitable terrain (in many cases) and more are likely to have hobbyist hives within SHB's flying distance. Perhaps time of year also plays a part? Can someone enlighten us as to the most likely time of year for SHB spread? If the larva go to ground to pupate and come out after hives have left, how long can they survive in the area if a new hive is not found? Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 19:21:52 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Unsuccessful queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 20/06/03 05:03:29 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << I have a steady hand and good eyesight. I have no problems finding larva the right age and i have no problems transferring it to the cell cups. >> Mats, Under what circumstances do you graft? I am wondering about ultraviolet light. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 01:49:07 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: AFB scale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It has been mentioned "ad infinitum" that eradication of AFB from colonies of honey bees and associated equipment is not helped by the presence of so called "scale". This "scale" material results from the remains of larvae that have died due to AFB infection. Apart from being loaded with potential infective material, it is extremely difficult for the inhabitants of the hive to remove it without destroying the comb material. So to the point of the mail: What makes "scale" adhere to the comb material in such a tight manner? Physical or chemical adhesion? If a way was found to ease its removal without comb destruction, would not some of the techniques used in controlling AFB have greater effectiveness? Not really awaiting miracles, but thought that the question was worth posing! Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:54:26 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Dance language vs. odour. Barry Donovan said: > In his 2002 paper The Elusive Honey Bee Dance "Language" > Hypothesis Adrian quotes Popper and Lakatos as saying in > effect that a theory must be falsifiable. Popper's rule of thumb is a good one, but it is not an absolute. Specific subjects in some branches of science deal with subject matter that appear to defy "testing" (formation of the universe, the development of life on Earth, etc), but this does not imply that the theories developed in these areas are automatically to be dismissed as bunk. In a matter of "animal behavior", such as bee foraging, we see significant "variable behavior" that in many cases can overpower the "controlled situation" we try to create. Think of swarming as a good example. There is NO foolproof method that can prevent swarming. No matter what we do as beekeepers, we would be fools to make flat statements about swarming. Given this sort of situation, it should be clear that experiments in "animal behavior" are not as reliable as they would be if one were working with inanimate objects. So, there may well be a large set of "bee behaviors" that would be frustratingly difficult explain with strictly "falsifiable theories". Also, one must recognize the shades of distinction between theories that are: a) logically inconsistent b) empirically falsifiable c) contradicts observations A theory that is logically inconsistent can be disproven without any experiments. The theory "disproves" itself. "Falsification" is a structural thing. One can develop a theory that is falsifiable, and be forced to wait decades for technology to advance to the point where experiments are possible. But if the technology never matures to the point where the proposed test(s) can be done, is the theory "Unfalsifiable"? Of course not! On a practical level, it really is, but the theory can claim to simply be "waiting" for "better equipment". Theories that contradict observations are simply "wrong", even though they may not be logically inconsistent or empirically unfalsifiable. (There are a very tiny number of theories that have contradicted prior observations and have later been proven correct by superior experimental technologies. In these cases, the prior observations were "wrong", or more often, not as accurate as the newer observations. This seldom happens in any area of inquiry other than those that can be summarized as "hair splitting".) In science as a whole, most theories are offered as explanations for existing sets of observations, rather than offered in advance of observations. In these cases, the whole issue of "falsifiability" can get a bit confusing. To make matters worse, the theorists rarely do the experiments and make the observations first hand. > Wenner and Wells in their 1990 book showed how the > criteria that are generally accepted as indicative > of the truth change about every 30-50 or so years. I'm not sure which specific "criteria" are claimed to have changed at what points, but this sort of claim is a very telling verbal parting shot, one only taken from debating positions that are going down in flames. It should be made clear that while technical advances allow us to be ever-more demanding in terms of accuracy, the basic steps for finding "truth" have remained the same for far longer than any of us have been alive. As a practical example of this, one might say that Einstein "proved Newton wrong", and thereby made the "criteria for truth" more rigorous. One saying this would be wrong. Newton was RIGHT! Nearly every physical object you can see or touch was designed using nothing more than Newton's view of the universe. While relativistic effects are important in a very small number of areas, no one who designs a skyscraper or even plots a interplanetary trajectory for a space probe needs use more than Newton's laws. Newton was not only "close enough" for his time, he was "close enough" for the foreseeable future for the overwhelming majority of human activities. As for the specific falsifiability of either "odor" or "dance", I offered a practical test of "odor vs dance" just this week: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0306c&L=bee-l&F=&S=&P=5487as as an example of how the "not falsifiable" argument is nothing more than rhetorical "dance". The silence that met this proposal has been deafening, which is exactlt what I expected. jim (Theories exist describing him as a paleoconservative about theories. These theories lack proof.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:11:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: AFB scale Comments: To: pdillon@CLUB-INTERNET.FR In-Reply-To: <3EF3AB83.2D1C81C@club-internet.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:49 AM 6/21/2003 +0100, Peter Dillon wrote: >If a way was found to ease its removal without comb destruction, would not >some of the techniques >used in controlling AFB have greater effectiveness? Removal of the scale won't cure AFB as the spores are found everywhere. I would reduce the total amount in the hive, but once a hive is heavily infected I doubt removal of the scales with have much effect. It's more a positive sign of AFB than the only source of AFB. It is possible to kill the spores without destroying the comb using irradiation. I know it's used in some countries cost effectively. The scale does remain in the comb, but since the spores are dead it poses no threat. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:36:13 -0600 Reply-To: Mathew Westall Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mathew Westall Subject: AFB - Masked or Cured? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After following the AFB threads on Bee-L for years I wish to report a possible AFB anomaly. The single beehive in my backyard (100-150 at my apiary depending on the year) is used just for pollination at the house. Three years ago I brought home a truckload of scorched woodenware that had "AFB" marked on every 10'th one or so. They were clean of wax so I tested a deep with the backyard hive using my frames. Within 2 weeks I found AFB in the hive. The disease had just started but passed the ropey test when stirred with a stick & smelled the distinctive AFB smell - though slight. Instead of culling the hive I simply removed the brood & 'test' deep and treated with TM by dusting the bees. That was 3 years ago and I've never used TM since without ANY outbreak in that hive. Today the same hive is roughly 4 deeps of solid brood and inspected last week - and healthy as any I have at the apiary, supered up for a good year coming. & that's after 3 years without TM. Cured? Masked? I would suggest that perhaps AFB "can" be cured if caught during the early stages. Certainly this hive would have shown AFB again? If the infected brood is removed & the remainder bees treated perhaps I was lucky enough to kill the live foulbrood within the bees and removed the spores with the brood? The AFB was certainly no older than 1 week as I had inspected the hive the week prior. Other ideas? ----------------- At the apairy any AFB found calls for culling the infected hive. I've found 3 hives over the past 4 or 5 years. Suspected from introducing used woodenware. I DON'T use TM unless a nearby hive has come down with AFB. Though unlike other commercial beekeepers I have the luxury of keeping the majority of my apiary within arm's length. If the bulk of my investment in hives were 30+ miles away I would surely protect them with TM since it would be tougher to catch early on. Matthew Westall E-Bees - Castle Rock, CO - USA -where it's been raining every 3 or 4 days and the hay, clover & alfalfa are unlike any year & a GREAT summer expected- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 04:19:30 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: AFB scale Peter said: > What makes "scale" adhere to the comb material in such a tight manner? > Physical or chemical adhesion? Dunno, so I'll ask an expert today at the joint MD/VA state beekeeper meeting in Manassas VA (very near Washington DC). (See http://www.virginiabeekeepers.org for map and schedule) Offhand, I'd guess that the remains of the dead larvae (which are "rubbery" when one uses the traditional toothpick test) are a "glue" of sorts. > If a way was found to ease its removal without comb destruction, > would not some of the techniques used in controlling AFB have > greater effectiveness? Let's think about this. a) AFB is a microscopic thing. The spores range from 1.5 to 2.5 micrometers in diameter. b) A single diseased larvae is estimated to contain 2,500,000,000 spores. So, if you make is easier for the bees to remove a scale, haven't you just created an "AFB hand grenade" that will spread spores all over the hive as the scale is handled and removed by the bees? :) The morphology for AFB is very very very similar to that for Anthrax (Bacillus anthracis). Both are tough customers, hard to really kill with anything less than cobalt radiation or Electron beam radiation, hard to see, hard to find, hard to "clean up". I wonder how long it will be before Maxant, Cowen, and Swienty offer "E-beam systems for the sideline beekeeper". Right now, this would be a very bulky and expensive add-on to a chain uncapper. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 09:16:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: AFB - Masked or Cured? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mathew Westall wrote: > Instead of culling the hive I > simply removed the brood & 'test' deep and treated with TM by dusting the > bees. > > That was 3 years ago and I've never used TM since without ANY outbreak in > that hive. Today the same hive is roughly 4 deeps of solid brood and > inspected last week - and healthy as any I have at the apiary, supered up > for a good year coming. & that's after 3 years without TM. AFB goes with honey, diseased brood and woodenware. You removed the main repository and "cured" the disease. You also caught it early and treated before you had spores throughout the colony. Our State Bee Inspector gave me the option of shaking my bees onto new foundation in a new hive so I could keep the bees. So saving bees from an AFB infected hive is always an option. I did burn all my infected equipment and could use the honey but not let the bees have it. I treated for a while after that mostly because of the "fear factor' but quit after a few years. No AFB since. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 15:30:08 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: AFB scale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Responding to Tim's statement that removal of scale would not cure AFB. This is the reason why I couched my question carefully saying "..... in controlling AFB". Jim then comments on the creation of "AFB hand grenades": With intrepidation I start to debate with JF!! It must be taken that I am trying to get informed about the status of AFB scale, therefore throw in this for clarification. Hand grenades I understand are harmless until the pin in pulled - may this be equated to the scale? - are they harmless, or have reduced infective qualities until ruptured? To what extent does coming into casual contact with a scale (one that does not have a degraded surface) allow for the transfer of spores in a quantity resulting in clinical AFB to appear? If an intact scale has limited (relative) potential to infect, then an increase in ease of removal could potentially reduce the reservoir of spores that are present in the hive. Potential problem: Scale once released, I presume would then be dumped in the environs of the hive entrance - allowing degradation of the "hand grenade" to occur. This area then becoming a proverbial "mine field". Getting back to the point (and limiting our problems for the moment!). If scale could be removed, resulting in a reduced quantity of spores that were now available to be picked up by adult bees - resulting infection then possibly could be controlled by antibiotic applications - as activated spores have their reproductive facilities compromised. Removing the spores removes the reservoir of inert spores - could this not break the cycle of infection? I am not so foolish to imagine that complete removal of scale would occur, that is if any method of scale removal was ever found and applied. What come to mind is the work being done in Canada, relating to AFB spore counts in honey and and ability to indicate infection rates in colonies from such data. Allen Dick (please correct if wrong!) appears to suggest that AFB infection rates are lowered over time if the scale is removed and antibiotic use limits clinical symptoms resulting from free spores "germinating". Gradually, the number of free spores reduces as they are not complemented by others coming from reserve scale. The threat from AFB, being a chronic affliction in bee colonies, most probably will never be removed - but any technique when applied in an appropriate manner may reduce our losses. Peter (with too much time on his hands!!) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 10:29:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 20 Jun 2003 at 18:07, Karen D. Oland wrote: > I can think of several ways for the maps to be "spotty" in the sourwood > areas, yet still not require falsification by inspectors. (snip) > Those who move to sourwood here never leave their bees over winter (snip) >I would assume the same is true > of > migratory beekeepers in the SC area. Karen brings up some interesting points that indicate the dangers of simplistic interpretation of the maps. There are so many variables in the input. More info could be added here. One of the first problems though, is the definition of "migratory." These migratories in the sourwood area, are not the big, bad tractor- trailer load guys that some love to hate. Sourwood doesn't interest the big guys. These "migratories" are part timers who load some hives on a pickup or a utility trailer and move two or three or four counties over to the sourwood. While sourwood honey is famous and high-priced, it is not a large crop and it is notoriously unreliable. Furthermore there is a lot more sold than produced. Whenever big packers get involved and large quantities are marketed, it's unlikely to be real sourwood. Not only are the sourwood areas poor places to keep bees year-round, they are quite inhospitable to afrobeetles who might stay over, in the limited number of hives that do remain year around. There are few places with deep sandy soils that afrobeetles like. Most areas have thin, rocky and very acid clay soils. The winters are similar to northern winters, more and more so as one moves to higher elevations. Remember that this beetle is tropical to semi-tropical in its origin. In areas where the afrobeetle does not find favorable conditions, it may die out between seasons. Or it may show up only in the warm season. Or it may show up only in the honey house. A beekeeper may have bees in three or four counties, but the only county that shows a positive find for the beetle on the map is the one where his extracting is done. That's not to say that information cannot be garnered from the maps. Only that interpretations must have additional data to be valid. The afrobeetle was present in South Carolina in abundance along the southeastern coast by 1996, and probably present at least a couple years before that. Samples were provided to Clemson in 1997 and they could not identify them. The beetle was finally identified from the northeastern coast of Florida in 1998. Judging by the oldest known areas of presence, the most likely site of introduction to the US was one of three ports: Charleston, Beaufort (SC) or Savannah. Looking at the maps http://www.ceris.purdue.edu/napis/pests/shb/imap/usaall.html (Click on the states for more detail) ....one can see that the beetle is "established" in the strip along the coast from South Carolina to Florida, and includes much of the west coast of Florida as well. This is the area where the environment best suits the beetle. It is similar to its native environment. The early part of its spread was in the prime melon growing area of South Carolina. This is the same area where the beetle is still most problematic for SC beekeepers. There have been three theories that I've heard about the introduction at one of these ports. 1. That the beetle arrived in pollen used as supplements for bee feed. I think this one highly unlikely since pollen feeding is not a normal management technique here in SC which has some of the best pollen sources in the world. 2. That it arrived in a feral swarm on the ship. Again only remotely possible. Most shipping is now done in containers where bees would probably suffocate, and ships crews will exterminate exposed swarms. 3. The beetles arrived on fruit. This is what I believe the most likely scenario. It is interesting that the first quick spread of the beetle was throughout the southern counties of South Carolina where watermelons and cantaloupes grow, and one can't help but wonder if there is an association, particularly for cantaloupes. At least the environment is suitable, with long hot summers, and deep sandy soils. This melon pollination is not very attractive to the big, bad migratory beekeepers, as it is only one long-blooming crop per season; it is during hot weather when bees suffer if not given special care; and it is during the bloom of major honey plants in northern areas. So most of the pollination is done by local beekeepers. There is little doubt that these local beekeepers aided in the spread of the afrobeetle. When it first got the attention of the inspectors, at least three or four years after it was first seen by beekeepers, it was at the pollination sites for watermelons and cantaloupes. But movement by beekeepers is rarely more than one county over. And the beetles have been observed to fly freely. So it's likely that the movement of beetles inland was mainly by beekeeper movement, and I think the movement along the coast was mainly by flight, since there is little movement by beekeepers in this direction. Both movements happened rapidly, within a couple season this entire belt now marked "established" had the afrobeetle. I believe that my first occasion of afrobeetles flew in. I can think of no other explanation, as no bees nor supers were moved in the area to the best of my knowledge. A known infection was already present about 15 miles away. My second infection was probably from bees moved by another beekeeper from this southern SC melon belt to near me. I know of one case of a beekeeper from the piedmont, who was doing pollination in the melon belt at that time. Interestingly his home county back on the piedmont is still marked "not found." As to the three Pee Dee (northeastern) counties where the long-range migratories are, and which are also marked "not found," I have seen afrobeetles in all three counties and reported this to the state inspector. But he apparently has not seen them himself, thus has not marked them in the map. At any rate, the beetles are at very low levels and remain so, with the most common sighting being at the extraction facility. Whether they remain at low levels because the area is inhospitable to them, or because of control efforts by beekeepers I cannot say, though I lean toward the latter. One of the first findings of the afrobeetle in the Pee Dee was in Florence County, where a hive owned by a hobbyist, that had been established from a package, was found to have them. I believe the hive was killed, but the beetle quickly showed up in other spots around the area. As noted before, the beetle flies freely; the range of an adult most often quoted to me is 15 miles. Since the beetle can have several generations in the warm season, this could easily become a hundred or more miles per year. As to interpretation of the maps, it would be wise to reserve judgement on many points until we've had more experience of the beetle. I am learning more about it all the time. Some beekeepers seem to already know it all, but I am reminded that I knew everything there is to know about child rearing until I became a father.... The most useful thing to be gained from the maps, I think is over the long term. The maps can identify the areas where the beetle continues to show up, which are areas that have an environment hospitable to the beetles. I think that for the southeast, at least up to the Piedmont, you can *probably* assume that counties where the beetle is "not found" actually have the beetle. But it is either just starting; or because of environmental conditions, or because of alert beekeepers who institute control measures, the beetle stays at low levels. I have indicated three such counties where this is true. Another anomoly: I note that in eastern North Carolina, the biggest cucumber growning county is still marked "not found" despite the fact that a number of North Carolina beekeepers "migrate" there for pollination. Why? North Carolina beekeepers tend to be concentrated in the center third of the state (where most of the afrobeetles are...hmmm...wonder if there's a connection...) and some "migrate" to the mountains for sourwood, a few to the coastal plain for cukes. I also *think* that you will find other counties outside the "hospitable" zone in the southeast, where the beetle has been introduced, and found, yet it will not become established unless beekeepers allow it to thrive in the extraction facility. The environment is not hospitable to the beetle and it will remain at very low levels or die out entirely. I expect most of the northern sites to be this way. In the debate over the big, evil migratory vs. the small, saintly, local beekeeper, it has been claimed that the hobbyist is more likely to know what's going on in his hives, because he has them open every time he turns around. While this may be true in a few cases, I doubt that its generally true. Some new hobbyists may have the hive open frequently during their first year or two, but that wears off. My own experience was that I didn't open my first hive at all for the first season, because I was afraid of them. There are some (mostly) new beekeepers that tend to be clustered in the outer suburbs that are part of a beekeeper association, tend to read widely, and are up-to- date on what's happening in their hives. There are a lot more, at least in the southeast, who are not joiners, and are into bees because their father or grandfather was, who rarely open a hive except to "rob" it, catch what swarms they can, and generally have a "laisse-faire" attitude about the bees. Many of these were weeded out by varroa, but some have come back. Many, upon seeing the afrobeetle, would not recognize what it is, and certainly would not do anything to control it. I have a friend who is such a beekeeper. He is a small produce grower. When varroa came around, he lost all his bees, but didn't know why. So he caught more swarms. I've told him about varroa, but as far as I know he still does not treat for it. If you tried to pull the frames from his hives, they would fall apart. Yet he has managed to keep several hives alive, year after year, since the loss from varroa. While he may be a source of infection for other beekeepers, from AFB, varroa, and afrobeetle, yet he may well be also performing a service to the rest of the community, because he is (probably unintentionally) selecting for superior genetics in his bees. It remains to be seen what effect the beetle will have on him. I believe he needs us, and we need him. I think the bee list would be a kinder, gentler place if we all kept that in mind. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:23:25 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1ED4903B for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZdu011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0306C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 190246 Lines: 4170 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 21:43:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: migratory beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim said: I could not imagine being "migratory" for even a single season. For a inside look at the little-known world of migratory beekeeping may I suggest the book: "Following The Bloom" Across America with the Migratory Beekeepers by Douglas Whynott.(copyright 1991) The book is available from many bee supply houses. Having seen many of the things Douglass saw in his time with the migratory beekeepers (many friends of mine) I can vouch for correctness. A trip to a public library might be the only way to read the next article unless you collect old "National Geographic" magazines. "U.S. beekeepers : Hives for hire" can be found in vol. 183, no.5 (May 1993). Excellent article and very correct by Alan Mairson. Being a friend of Douglass I will quote a bit from his book after his time with the migratory beekeepers and looking at the one hive he keeps in his back yard. >From page 206 of "Following the bloom" by Douglass Whynott: "I like to watch them, most of all, and now when I see them making their sweeping arcs, when they glide down among the crowds of bees at the hive entrance , I just watch. Contradiction has followed expansion,and I sometimes think of a zen saying; at first mountains were mountains,AND THEN THE MOUNTAINS WERE NOT MOUNTAINS,BUT SOME OTHER THING; now the mountains are mountains again" Go out and buy the book to keep the best and most current book about migratory beekeeping around for generations. Old beekeeping books are NEVER tossed away but passed on. I was given and old beekeeping book by a book collector awhile back because the book was missing the front cover. The inside is in perfect condition and I treasure the book and have made a cover. The book is the ABC and XYZ copyright 1919. can members of BEE_L shed light on the original owner of the book? Front inside page: "To my dear husband with much love, Dr. Bernard J. Bohn, From your loving wife, Ethel E. Bohn, Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 00:20:25 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Eastern Apicultural Society Deadline Allen mused: > When I look over the short course program, I can't figure out, from the > web pages, exactly what is being offered and by whom, other than in very > general terms, and I see nothing about Wednesday morning other than " > Combined Session - Topics of interest to all beekeepers". I think that the problem here is that the web pages were created far in advance of the "firming up" of exactly who would be doing exactly what in the short courses, and have not been updated with specifics. Maybe EAS needs a webmaster who can update their web pages daily. Know anyone who updates a website daily? :) > I was therefore very interested in the campus "daily use fee". This is a mechanism that allows the school to assure that they make a consistent profit per attendee, even if the attendee chooses to not stay on campus. Yes, it is a rip-off. The days of EAS riding free at land-grant universities are long gone. All schools are strapped for cash, and we are a source of easy revenue. I stayed "on campus" at both EAS 2000 (Maryland) and EAS 2002 (NY), and in both cases I was surprised at just how nice the dorms were. If the dorms were so nice back when I went to college, I would not have lived off-campus. > The AHPA always has lots of free parking for trucks Well, this is not an AHPA or an ABF meeting. Not even close. EAS is not so much about the BUSINESS of beekeeping as it is about beekeeping for the pure joy of it. There will be no hand-wringing over honey prices, no fists will be pounded on podiums, no one will say impolite things about other countries that produce honey, the most likely comments made about a large truck would be "wow, what a gas-guzzler" or "so much chrome, and me without my sunglasses", and most tellingly, no one will show the least bit of deference to someone who simply happens to own more hives than someone else. > if 500 people attend, how do they manage to figure out the program > and registration? What am I missing? Well, it is a lot like a Grateful Dead concert. You buy tickets well in advance and travel a long distance to go to the show without knowing much about what the performance will be like, or what specific things might happen. Not knowing what to expect is part of the adventure. While this requires blind faith that the schedule will be chock-full of educational and entertaining presentations, such faith is justified. The doubting Thomases can review the list of speakers. If it is any help, the EAS 2002 schedule listed a short course in "Bee Anatomy". I did not attend the short courses, and arrived earlier on Wednesday than I had hoped to. I started kicking myself when I walked past the room where the course was being taught, and saw 20 stereo dissecting microscopes, with multiple instructors moving from student to student, coaxing them through full post-mortems. So, when they say, for example, "Bee Anatomy", they mean it. :) Also like a Grateful Dead concert, some folks go simply because EAS is THE event of the year, and to not go is to miss out on the social aspects of the meeting, or miss seeing people that they will only see at EAS. Regardless, one can relax and simply go with the flow. I've yet to hear anyone say that going to EAS was not "worth it". I keep waiting from Kim Flottum to open an EAS general session with the phrase "Welcome back my friends, to the show that never ends" but I guess he never was an Emerson, Lake and Palmer fan. jim (Who's planning horizon does not extend to August, but likely will show if he is in at least the same time zone) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 15:26:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Digital bee pictures Here are some pics taken with a Canon A40. Along with the macro lenses, it was around 300 dollars. Very easy to use. http://tvaughan.suddenlaunch2.com/index.cgi?board=Bees :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:48:23 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Re: dance language vs. odour Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian Wenner claimed that the re-discovered early papers of von Frisch which say that bees locate food by odour alone, support his (Adrian's) odour hypothesis. But, the point is that when von Frisch discovered the dance language, this new hypothesis supplanted his odour hypothesis. In the light of new data, von Frisch rejected his odour hypothesis in favour of his dance language hypothesis. However, my comprehensive hypothesis (2000. Bee World 81(1): 5-10) suggests that both the odour and dance languages hypotheses are partly right, in that bees do indeed use the information in the dance, but in two different ways: 1. some bees go to the indicated food source to most quickly exploit the already discovered food; 2. some bees use the information in the dance to avoid the indicated source, and to head in other directions to search for odour plumes in order to most quickly locate and so exploit new sources of the food. Several papers published during the last few years on communication in other species of social bees in the genus Melipona have shown that they have an ability to pass on information about food sources using a `language'. There are several hundred species in the Meliponinae, of which only a few have been studied so far. It will be most interesting to see if evidence of `language' is found for any other species. Barry J Donovan Private Bag 4704 Christchurch New Zealand. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 22:18:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: tom barrett Subject: Varroa Control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello All Here in Ireland we are going through the varroa growing pains which our USA colleagues faced a long time ago. Would I be correct in saying that if America had to face varroa again with the benefit of hindsight that America would not have used chemicals so liberally? Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland# :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 20:27:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jason Buchanan Subject: Drone farm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I opened my hives today for the first time in 3 weeks and discovered the beginnings of a mess at the bottom... Along 2 frames on the bottom super the colony decided to set up a drone farm. I didn't feel too bad about disposing of it given that it was all capped drone cells but was wondering if this was typical when the colony is given plasticell to work with throughout the hive. I was quite surprised to see how quickly the colony had drawn out half of the hive body above which I added on the 28th of May. When I lifted the 2nd body I noticed it was quite heavy which surprised me. I swapped the drawn frames with the undrawn frames to coax them into filling out all 10 frames in each body. The weather this week and the next is supposed to be quite nice. I refilled the gallon syrup jar and gave them a new beepro patty to munch on so they should be happy with this arrangement. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 21:40:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com In-Reply-To: <0e5d01c33290$58df3b50$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 14 Jun 2003 at 12:16, James Fischer wrote: > While you are at it, explain the maps you can see here: > http://www.ceris.purdue.edu/napis/pests/shb/imap/usaall.html > > Pay special attention to the Georgia map, which will appear > when you click on Georgia in the national map. > Please explain the proximate cause of the "spotty" pattern > of SHB infestations in the USA WITHOUT long-distance movement > of live bees through either: > >Look at the maps. Read 'em and weep. Well Jim, I don't mean to be contrary, but I read the South Carolina map (which I know better than Georgia) and smiled. You made my point! Take a look at it, if you would please. Look at counties 51 (Horry), 67 (Marion), 89 (Williamsburg), and 27 (Clarenden). I'll give you a piece of background information. This is where about 95% of the SC migratory bees are kept in season. Now notice that 3 of 4 of these counties have NO beetles found, despite a concentration of inspections in these counties (to certify migratories to move). Your turn to read and weep.... ;o) Dave in SC USA -Wondering if these maps are a good enough foundation for a monumental conclusion.... The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 19:16:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Digital bee pictures In-Reply-To: <200306151926.h5FJQq3C002573@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If you want to take photos just for computer display and internet use, you can get by quite cheaply; a computer monitor is typically capable of displaying only 72 pixels per inch -- a photo of this resolution will look great until you try to print it out. If you want a photo you can print to 8x10 or larger and still have it look like a photograph, you'll have to spend a few hundred more dollars. Eugene Makovec __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 16:21:41 +1200 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: Digital bee pictures In-Reply-To: <200306151926.h5FJQq3C002573@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT There are many good cameras out there that will take good macro photos. Some allow good images by getting really close, and this is OK around the hive because bees aren't so "flighty" there. These cameras will only cost a few hundred. But if you want to take images from a distance so you don't scare foraging bees, you will need a good optical zoom and an add on macro lens. This also allows a more natural perspective rather than the "fishbowl" perspective of having the "lens touching the subject". You should look for at least 5X and 10X is good. I personally use a 10X zoom with a +3 macro lens on the front (Olympus 2100 UZ - 2.1 MP). This lets me get around 1 foot away and fill half the frame with a bee. See http://www.airborne.co.nz/bees1.htm These will print to A4 size on a high quality (Epson 1290) photo printer. Assuming you are going for something like a Nikon 5700 (no thread on the lens for macro add on lens), Minolta 7i, Sony 717, there will be some chromatic aberration (colour flaring along contrasting edges of the subject, and more pronounced towards the outer regoins of the photo) , especially at full zoom with an add on macro lens. To reduce this as much as possible, you will need a flash. Sometimes you can get away with a pop up flash, and sometimes you can't. But smaller apertures and higher shutter speeds (from using a flash) will help reduce the colour flaring or chromatic aberration and improve depth of field. The next step up from these are the digital SLRs. Camera bodies start at around $1200 with lenses, flash, tripods, etc all extra..... $$$$$$$. Try www.dpreview.com for reviews, specs, history, tips and particularly the forums for opinions, problems etc once you have narrowed down your choices. Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 23:57:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa Control ( mineral oil treatment) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom & All, Would I be correct in saying that if America had to face varroa again with the benefit of hindsight that America would not have used chemicals so liberally? I do not think one could say we ever used chemicals liberally. We started with amatraz and then those strips were pulled because of some dead hives in Florida (owned by a friend of mine which still says the strips were the reason the hives died around 150 hives I believe). We used fluvalinate (Apistan) then a relative safe and effective control for varroa which is still in use in areas. Those which had fluvalinate resistant varroa had little choice but to use the checkmite strips which were very effective. The battle to control varroa is on going and will get harder when the checkmite strips quit working in our area. Published results of 1998 mineral oil testing in Missouri I realize you have been a advocate of mineral oil but we ruled out mineral oil in 1999 after tests run in Missouri in the year 1998 under a grant by the Missouri department of Agriculture (S.A.R.E. program) using Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez method had a complete failure. I do not think the results are available on line but are published in the 1998-2000 "Missouri Sustainable Agriculture Demonstration Award Projects " book available from the Missouri Department of Agriculture. Heading up the project was a beekeeper/entomologist with two master beekeeper certifications (Matt Higdon),with help from the president of the Missouri State beekeepers ( Art Gelder) and Ray Nabors (a respected beekeeper which teaches beekeeping classes). Not room for me to put all details of the project in this post but will quote from Matt Higdon from page 24 of the above book: Though the results are disappointing , Higdon points out," The real value of the test is to illustrate that one must be skeptical of the many anecdotal reports and unsubstantiated observations that abound on the internet-no matter how well intentioned they may be" Instructions were gleaned from to quote from pg. 22 of the above book: "Much of this project is a follow-up to the recent work of a "Dr. Pedro P.Rodriguez', presumably a retired veterinarian in Virginia" I believe both Matt & Dr. Rodriguez are members of BEE-L so maybe they will comment. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 01:29:30 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") Dave said, of Horry, Marion, Williamsburg, Clarenden counties in SC: > This is where about 95% of the SC migratory bees are kept in season. > Now notice that 3 of 4 of these counties have NO beetles found, > despite a concentration of inspections in these counties (to certify > migratories to move). I was certainly not claiming that EVERY migratory operation was infested with SHB. :) I was stating the obvious - that both the nationwide pattern of infestation and the patterns within infested states defy all but a few possible explanations. In the South Carolina map http://www.ceris.purdue.edu/napis/pests/shb/imap/scshb.html we see three counties were SHB was "not found" as of 11/40/2002, but all the counties that surround them are counties where SHB was listed as "established". How did that happen? There is no apparent natural protection for these counties that might block the "natural" spread of SHB, so we are left with the conclusion that such a strange pattern could not be a result of "natural" spread. The long distances between infested areas are one clue. The complete lack of infestation in many states is another. The pattern of infestation on the East coast of the USA deserves special attention. Compared the infested areas with the paths of Interstate Highways 95, 77, 26, and so on. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 06:47:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Varroa Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tom from Ireland posits, “Would I be correct in saying that if America had to face varroa again with the benefit of hindsight that America would not have used chemicals so liberally?” Depending on whom/who [in America] you ask, the answer may vary—-with correct justification, of course. My personal take, nevertheless, is “yes”—-the impossibility of controlling every Tom, Dick, and Harry in beekeeping notwithstanding. A while back, I entertained that pathogens in general seem to go through Hegelian dialectics: initial contact followed by devastation followed by armistice of sort followed by gradual recovery. Actually the process sounds more like “Death and Resurrection” Motif universal in your compatriot Joseph Campbell’s illustrious books on Myths. Having said that, though, I do understand there are exceptions, though rare, wherein a pathogen can wipe clean out a host species. But by not treating the bees at all, one can accelerate the baptism-by-fire process, thus helping our bees, with no stinking favors. Sure, one must take desperate measures in desperate times dictated by his/her circumstances and locations. It is hard not to. But there will be feral bees in the verdant Irish groves, in “The Lake Isle of Innisfree” perhaps, that will face mites head on. But come back they will. They must. According to my casual observations, of collecting swarms for several years in my area, there are more feral swarms in each year; in fact, this year I collected more than double [14] of what I had last year already [7], and am still waiting for the phone to ring. Of course, it is impossible to accurately account for all the swarms: the ones that got away or the ones that nobody noticed, for instance. However, my friends in the Deep South seem to experience a similar upswing. To save the bees, one must treat whichever may be the most effective way according to his/her location or scale of operation: name all the fine chemicals and mouth-foaming theories here. I disbelieve them all. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:07:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com In-Reply-To: <019401c333c8$436627f0$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 16 Jun 2003 at 1:29, James Fischer wrote: > The pattern of infestation on the East coast of the USA > deserves special attention. Compared the infested areas > with the paths of Interstate Highways 95, 77, 26, and so on. While the maps can give some clues, they cannot be simplistically interpreted. There are lots of additional details to check. 1. Inspectors may not be looking. Or may not recognize the beetle when they see it. This is, of course not the case with the South Carolina counties.... 2. Inspectors may not WANT to see them. (OK cheap shot, and unlikely most places.) 3. Beetles may be present but not thriving. This is the biggie in many areas. You can find an occasional beetle, but rarely see them, unless you are specifically focusing on their hiding spots. Some geographical factor (perhaps soil type) limits their population. 4. Presence of source of high pressure. You know that when you lose a hive that is eaten out by wax worms, the remaining hives will have a lot of moths trying to lay eggs. Hives that can drive out an occasional moth, may not be able to stop every one when thousands are trying to get in. Same for beetles. One badly infested hive that collapses can throw off a LOT of beetles to go after others in the area. And beekeepers have learned NEVER to put a super of honey from a beetle-attacked hive onto a strong hive to "clean it up" as you might do with a beginning attack by wax moths. It simply overwhelms them. This is why someone who doesn't know what he's doing can spread a lot lot of beetles. Yeah, even the guy with two hives.... 5. Many more variables. Why does one hobby beekeeper near the farmers market tell me the "beetles are eating him up," while others in the area regard them as a minor problem? Why does the population get high one year and virtually disappear the next? A friend of mine had the beetles for three years (and lost a lot of hives) before he found out what it was. He seems to be in an area where the beetles thrive. He has NO migratories in his area. But the beetles freely fly from one apiary to another. Jim, I respect you as a highly intelligent guy. But your insistance on such simplistic interpretation of questionable maps gives me the strong impression that your conclusion was made before you saw the data, and continues to be made despite additional data.... I know a lot of hobby beekeepers and a lot of commercial beekeepers. While I respect and enjoy relationships with both, I find the commercial guys (the awful migratories) to be much more careful about diseases and parasites than the average hobbyist. This is their livelihood. The days when they could be careless are over. The ones that were careless are mostly gone. Let's dispense with the the seemingly built-in bias against a group that simply is trying to do what we all love to do - keep bees. Dave in SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:16:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: chemical control of varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Would I be correct in saying that if America had to face varroa again with the benefit of hindsight that America would not have used chemicals so liberally?" IMHO, I don't think so. Unlike the situation in many European countries, beekeeping here is primarily a commercial operation, meaning that most of the honey is produced by those having over 500 beehives. I believe that the non-chemical approaches are impractical once one has much over 100 hives. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:01:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: pests and disease MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Let's dispense with the the seemingly built-in bias against a group that simply is trying to do what we all love to do - keep bees." I have not read Jim as reflecting any bias. It seems to me that he is just presenting information that confirms what 'we' all know. Three years ago, when some Canadians wanted to see some SHB, a migratory said that they could look at his yards along the St. Lawrence river in upstate NY as he 'knew' he had them (from Florida). He also told a lot of us stories of how he manages to control them in his honey house...here in the Northeast. I think he is the largest migratory beekeeper in the Northeast. His attitude is that he has to make a living. He feels as if he runs a first-class operation, but any operation as large as his will reflect the conditions where he keeps bees. Which is all over. Because he 'has' to migrate he is likely to spread pests and disease, and that is just the way it is. More or less...these are his words, they are not an apology but an explanation. Personally, I am sorry that Dave Green and probably others have felt I was attacking migratory operations. I had no intention of doing so. I was instead pointing out that some inspection programs are so compromised as to be very questionable. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:57:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") Dave and Jim: Just to report that we, too, have SHB in Oklahoma although not to such an extent to be alarmed if one maintains strong colonies. In fact, it was about three years ago when I took down a feral colony that I had first noticed their presence around here. Now the beetles visit my colonies regularly to gain entrance and once in a while I see my bees gang up on against the iron-clad beetle, pushing and shoving them off the landing board. [Have you noticed this phenomenon?] Tacky, the beetles are tenacious, refusing to be pushed off. Of course, I help my bees out by twisting their heads off; no sooner do I catch them and place them on the ground to stomp than they fly away, lightening-fast. So be quick. When cleaning the bottom boards of small colonies, I often find the beetle larvae hidden deep in the heap of debris, as well. Yoon Finally poised for sumac to bloom to finish off the flow. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:28:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: chemical control of varroa In-Reply-To: <005501c33401$2d9afed0$29256118@newdell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:16 AM 6/16/03 -0400, you wrote: > I believe that the non-chemical approaches are impractical once one has > much over 100 hives. On the other hand, If we had the same knowledge and tools/treatments that we do now, I would have to so yes, things would be different. While non-chemical approaches may be impractical for large operations, the available options could be rotated, extending the time before resistance builds. Add even some limited IPM in the large operations and things may have been different today. But then hindsight is 20-20. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:39:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: chemical control of varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > "Would I be correct in saying that if America had to face varroa again with > the benefit of hindsight that America would not have used chemicals so > liberally?" > > IMHO, I don't think so. There are many posts in the archives about letting nature take its course, and Lloyd's comments about commercial beekeepers in the US condenses them nicely. Had chemicals not been used, there would be no commercial operations in the US. Chemicals gave a respite for other methods of control to be developed. If you looked at any of the literature at that time, all knew it was only about ten years before resistance happen, and it came right on time. Now we have many different controls because we had time. If someone really wants natural controls so that bees can adapt, they should not treat with anything (including so called natural chemicals that never appear in such concentrations in nature and are manufactured in chemical plants!), should not manipulate cell size or in any way "interfere with nature". That includes swarm management, raising of queens, purchasing queens and other "unnatural" techniques. Otherwise, it is not natural. Or is natural beekeeping really an arbitrary drawing of boundaries where some "unnatural" management is fine? If so, my natural beekeeping boundaries include the use of thermonuclear weapons (the sun is thermonuclear, hence I am natural). Species do not always adapt, otherwise, when we go to our bee yard, we would have be vigilant for the occasional T Rex. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:39:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: SHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dave & All, I might add to Dave's small hive beetle list. 6. The SHB lives most of the time away from the hive and (like the wax moth) infests mainly to lay eggs. A weak hive is the hive of choice. Because you are not finding many beetles in the hive does not mean you are safe from the SHB if in a known area of SHB infestation. Bob's advice: One needs to determine the time of year when (like the wax moth) the SHB is most prolific in your area at laying eggs and maintain strong hives and reduced entrances on nucs and weak hives. Better yet combine weak hives with other weak hives during the period the SHB is most activce at egg laying. The above also applies to the time the wax moth is most active also! In certain parts of the south the period may be most of the year but in Missouri the period would only be several months. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:29:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: pests and disease MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > Personally, I am sorry that Dave Green and probably others have felt I was > attacking migratory operations. I had no intention of doing so. I was > instead pointing out that some inspection programs are so compromised as to > be very questionable. SHB is in Maine and did come from migratory beekeepers. It has been found in their colonies by the State Bee Inspector. The operators had to deal with them. Varroa came to Maine the same way. Operators have to deal with it when found. Maybe tracheal did too. I am sure resistant AFB will too. And AHB, if it has not already. So, what? It just means we deal with a problem now rather than later. There is no way that the State will stop pollinators at the border to protect the local hobby beekeepers and in so doing destroy a multi million dollar blueberry operation. I agree with that choice. The nice thing is, we have an exceptional Inspector who has the backing of the Blueberry industry, so the commercial pollinators listen and do what he says. Otherwise, they are not invited back. We hobby beekeepers are fairly well protected, or at least as well as could be expected. Truth is, I know of only one beekeeper who had a major problem that destroyed many of his colonies, and that was not because of a commercial operation in the area (he is a small scale pollinator), but by a hobby beekeeper. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:40:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: chemical control of varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill said: Had chemicals not been used, there would be no commercial operations in the US. Chemicals gave a respite for other methods of control to be developed. The answer to varroa is a bee which can live with varroa and pollinate & produce a honey crop. We are closer to finding such a bee thanks to chemicals. The leave alone theory has not worked. Beekeeper story: A friend (third generation beekeeper) left 2000 hives untreated in 1993. Granddad had told him to let varroa do its worse and breed from the survivors. At the ABF convention in Orlando in 1994 he had around 180 colonies left. He was treating but those hives were over threshold and died anyway. Many many beekeepers tried the leave alone method for both tracheal mite and varroa with disappointing results. Another beekeeper story: A large beekeeper in Missouri wanted to wait and see how bad varroa losses would be before buying apistan strips (why spend the money) although he had found varroa in his hives. He wintered his hives in Texas in the fall of 1992 and a late flow happened and the bees kept raising brood and the varroa kept reproducing. When he was ready to make splits in the spring of 1993 90% of the hives were dead or dying. He fired his head beekeeper for incompetence which caused the later demise of the business as he was unable to hire another professional beekeeper. FERAL SWARMS ???? Most swarms people are catching are coming from swarms from managed colonies. The only swarm calls I get are in the area of one of my yards and has been the case for many years. I suspect there are other beekeepers in Yoon's area or the swarms may be coming from his own bee hives. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 06:49:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Varroa Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Would I be correct in saying that if America had to face varroa again > with the benefit of hindsight that America would not have used > chemicals so liberally? I don't know if you mean 'America' in the sense the US uses the term, or if you include Canada, Mexico, and the rest of the Americas, or who in America could decide for all. America is a huge place, no matter whether you mean it in the smallest or largest sense, with an amazing variety of climates and beekeeping practices. I doubt that 'America' has a single mind on the matter, but if it did, I suspect that most of the beekeeping part of America's mind would have wished for a broader spectrum of chemicals, and more study of all possibilities. The organic city shopper would likely have opted -- without thinking, even -- for none at all, regardless of economic cost to producers or the variety of food offered at low cost to consumers. In some areas, without two, or even three chemical treatments of some sort each year, colony loss would have repeatedly wiped out commercial beekeeping. In others, a year or two may pass without need for chemical intervention, although monitoring is certainly prudent in all cases. In spite of many decades of study, no one really knows all the mechanisms and factors involved in the varroa/honey bee interraction. After all, we just (finally) figured out quite recently which varroa was doing all the damage! Probably, in the long run, some sort of equilibrium will develop, but without chemicals, the immediate and short-term economic loss would have been unaccepable. Chemicals, used well, work well and reliably, with a minimum of harm to the bees or threat to humans. Nonetheless, chemicals in the wrong hands are dangerous. There is always a cost/benefit calculation to be made, as well as an analysis of probable effectiveness and cost. Chemicals range too, in cost and toxicity, from benign and harmless substances -- like powdered sugar, and mineral oil -- to substances that have effects on bees and mammals that are very disturbing to contemplate. As we lose effectiveness in a more benign chemical like fluvalinate, and move towards more toxic and cumulative compounds, like cumaphos, the use of chemicals looks less attractive. The best use of chemicals is to buy time for researchers and beekeepers to develop methods and stock for control and to gain understanding of the problem. In the fullness of time, we all hope that chemical stopgap measures will become less and less necessary to the point where management, stock selection and other factors may reduce chemical use to levels near zero. We also hope that where chemicals are required, that methods and substances can be developed which have the minimum possible impact -- ideally zero -- on the bees, the beekeeper, the environment, and the consumer. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 13:57:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Digital bee pictures In-Reply-To: <002501c332a6$1e6807c0$802865d5@ronmierl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Ron van Mierlo > is an Olympus Camedia C-2500L. (2,5 milion pixels). It has a zoom I use the same camera. The resolution is sufficient (even in medium res) for publication at 8x10 (newsletter cover). At high res, the 8x10 is photo quality (to most eyes). For professional work, you'll want higher res (more cost, and LOTS more memory needed both for taking pictures and storing them) > it come in sizes from 2-64MB or 96MB for a compact flash type. This camera > has a macro and super-macro setting for close-ups. In super-macro > I have more > than once managed to touch bees with the lens, but the documented minimum > distance is 2 cm. If you want close-ups pay very close attention to the minimum focus distance -- on many digital cameras, it is MUCH farther out than this one, so close ups are impossible. Also, invest in a good tripod (and monopod for field shots where tripods don't work). For flower shots, be prepared to block the wind on the flower you are interested in (with portable shield of some sort - if white in color, can double as a light bouncer), as close-up shots can take longer exposure times. Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:37:13 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron van Mierlo Subject: Re: Digital bee pictures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Karen and group, > For flower shots, be prepared to block the wind on the flower > you are interested in (with portable shield of some sort - if white in > color, can double as a light bouncer), as close-up shots can take longer > exposure times. Yes light seems to become a problem, getting up close. I notice that the lens, the camera and my big fat head block the light from the usual source, the sun. I tried some white paper as a reflector, but that often seems to desturb the insects, just as the lens that is poked up their nose! The standard flash misses the subject in these conditions, so perhaps a ringflash as with the medical Nikkor lens might help (even to empty your bank account in one hit!!). Ron van Mierlo :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 21:58:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Digital bee pictures "Yes light seems to become a problem, getting up close. I notice that the lens, the camera and my big fat head block the light from the usual source, the sun. I tried some white paper as a reflector, but that often seems to desturb the insects, just as the lens that is poked up their nose! The standard flash misses the subject in these conditions, so perhaps a ringflash as with the medical Nikkor lens might help (even to empty your bank account in one hit" Actually, I disagree with all these points. Use the sun, the sun is the best source of light for your photos. If there's a shadow, just move to another side. It works better, and doesn't cost anything. I've posted several pictures just now so you can see how I took advantage of just plain daylight. The honeycomb I just went over to my truck, and pulled out a super that I harvested today, and leaned my camera against a hive top to steady it. http://tvaughan.suddenlaunch2.com/index.cgi? board=Bees&action=display&num=1055811665 Regards Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:37:33 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 15 Jun 2003 to 16 Jun 2003 (#2003-168) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison has related several horror stories of mass killings of hives by varroa. We don't yet have varroa in the South Island of New Zealand - well not that we know, but its advent is thought to be inevitable, and we are of course very apprehensive of the damage it may well do. Bob, if I recall at all correctly, you acquired some SMR queens over a year ago. Can you give us your opinion of them please. Thanks very much. Regards, Barry Donovan Private Bag 4704 Christchurch New Zealand. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 11:24:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Digital bee pictures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If your camera will not let you get close enough, you can buy supplementary close up lenses which screw into the filter rings. These allow the camera to go closer and are numebred in diopters which is equal to 1000/f where f is the focal length of the lens in mm. >From my days taking real close ups of poisonous snakes, the best arrangement is to use the camera lens at telephoto and then the supplementary lens. If you have interchangeable lenses then a telephoto with extension tubes gives a slightly better picture, but it might suffer from vignetting. I haven't tried digital cameras yet, but this information will apply as it is purely optical. Ruary Rudd ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen D. Oland" To: Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Digital bee pictures > > If you want close-ups pay very close attention to the minimum focus > distance -- on many digital cameras, it is MUCH farther out than this one, > so close ups are impossible. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 08:05:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Varroa Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks: “Most swarms people are catching,” Bob observes in a broad stroke, “are coming from swarms from managed colonies. The only swarm calls I get are in the area of one of my yards and has been the case for many years.” And then he assumes, “I suspect there are other beekeepers in Yoon's area or the swarms may be coming from his own bee hives.” Not so. Ask your friends down in the Deep South. [Those of you from the south may want to disprove me here] Most of my bees are New World Carniolans now; I regularly requeened them as the feral stocks become too defensive after a few years although, for crossing and genetic vigor, I always maintain at least ten feral stocks at all times. For public safety and maintaining a good neighborhood, I feel I must requeen them after a while. The feral bees are all Italian varieties—-one hundred percent. Most of them come from residential walls and tree cavities that I monitor as they become perennial sources for my winter loss. I know several houses and a few trees with bees in them. [People just do not want to pay $150 to remove them, granted removal is feasible] Out of about forty, I did have two swarms of my own this year: I had thinned my Carnies in March, but as my operation expands, I had to give them another deep full of foundation, a classic formula. There are three hobbyists in my area, all of whom live outside the city limit, Shawnee is a good-size city, and most of my swarm-captures occur in the downtown area as you read the newspaper article a while back. Nobody keeps bees there. Nevertheless, your illustrations of past mite devastation struck me in that they all occurred in the early 1990’s (1993), about a decade ago, a significant factor that seems to indicate that it might take at least a decade for our bees to fight mites and emerge as victor. Do you have any recent anecdotes of such magnitude? If so, I stand corrected. Those of you who are now facing mite invasion worldwide might want to make a note of that. To accelerate the process, one might want to isolate a yard, this has been suggested here on Bee-L, and isolate the feral swarm- captures there and observe how they fare—-it will not cost anything even if they fail. Plus there could be yet more feral swarms next year. There are bees, we should remind ourselves, that coexist with mites and SHB, among others. Not a purist, I do not know what I am doing is “right,” either. Allow me to repeat here that depending on your locale and scale, you should treat bees with whatever works best for you. I have no problem with that. But I, too, believe in my bees—-their inherent ability to fight for their own survival, never the chemical industry that sponges money while possibly contaminating the environment irrevocably with unknown carcinogens. I want my bees to have their chance, a chance they have been deprived of so long. That’s all. Yes, I am naive--enough to shout, "Look, the king is buck-naked!" Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 08:41:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 15 Jun 2003 to 16 Jun 2003 (#2003-168) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry asked: Bob, if I recall at all correctly, you acquired some SMR queens over a year ago. Can you give us your opinion of them please. To bring everyone up to speed my partner and I recieved two SMR breeder queens from Glenn Apiaries the first week of July 2001. The instrumentally inseminated ( II ) queens were of the red & yellow SMR lines. the queens I raised (red line) were open mated to my best survivor queen (Carniolan). My partners (yellow line)were open mated to a Marla Spivak hygienic queens ( Italian II queen)drones. I tested my SMR bees for varroa quite a bit. My partner did only fall & spring testing. Of all bees tested for varroa the SMR headed hives had the lowest varroa counts. All had a varroa count in fall. My open mated SMR queens tend to lay a spotty brood pattern and are average to below average honey producers. None of the SMR were aggressive. The yellow line II queen started laying a spotty brood pattern after a few months . Her daughters also laid the spotty brood pattern so she was dropped from the program and my (red line) queen was used in her place. We were sent a letter by Dr. Harbo saying spotty brood patterns were being observed in II SMR queens and he was researching looking for possible reasons. The yellow line queen fit the description. My (red line) queen only laid what I would call a not perfect brood pattern and continued in use until the spring of 2003 when she became a drone layer. Her daughters did not lay the less than desirable brood pattern. I have got the greatest respect for the efforts of the Baton Rouge Bee lab and Glenn Apiaries. I would say the SMR queens produced as expected and may again try SMR breeder queens but am now playing around with Russians. Early report as promised: My Russian queens (April 2003) are in production hives and have got the honey supers on so early on in the Russian experiment. I spent quite a bit of time getting the queens introduced with problems but got 96 out of the 100 to take. One of the problems was that the bees in the hive would not feed the Russian queens in the cages (I do not introduce with attendants as I get my queens in a battery pack ). When released the Russian queens would go immediately to a cell of honey and drink honey. Some introductions took over a week due to the bees trying to ball the queen. These were the hardest queens I have ever tried to introduce and can see why hobby beekeepers might have trouble. Many beekeepers in the Midwestern Beekeepers say they gave up after the third Russian queen was balled or killed in the cage by the bees. These Russian queens were from different queen breeders so the problem is universal. My partner thought I was making a big deal out of nothing taking so much time introducing the Russian queens but I am glad I did. I gave my partner a couple Russian queens to try. My partner is a excellent beekeeper and did use push in cages . He reported the same type of problems as the bees tried to ball one of the queens when released but the hatching brood did feed the Russian queens which was an improvement over my observations of non feeding while in the queen cage. I also observed non feeding in the battery pack which involved quite a bit of extra work to keep those unused queens alive. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. I do apologize to those on the list which emailed me wanting SMR queens from us. We simply used every one we raised. We did supply many hobby beekeepers in the Midwestern Beekeeper Assn. of which we are both officers with a few queens to try but queen rearing is only a hobby at best for myself and my partner although one year my partner did raise over a thousand queens in spring in south Texas . :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 08:53:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon said; Nevertheless, your illustrations of past mite devastation struck me in that they all occurred in the early 1990's (1993), about a decade ago, a significant factor that seems to indicate that it might take at least a decade for our bees to fight mites and emerge as victor. Do you have any recent anecdotes of such magnitude? In California (2003) my partner bought deadouts from a commercial beekeeper which lost 600 of 1200 hives to varroa and did not want to pay shipping back to his home state on deadouts as he was headed to Texas before returning to his home state. Varroa infestation was the problem. In late winter of 2001 a Missouri beekeeper shipped two semi loads to California ( removed in very cold weather so not looked at ) and all but around 20 hives were dead on arrival because of varroa infestation. if so, I stand corrected. Varroa & tracheal mites are alive and well in the U.S. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 08:32:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Eastern Apicultural Society Deadline MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> ...You buy tickets well in advance and travel a long distance to go to the show without knowing much about what the performance will be like... Also like a Grateful Dead concert, some folks go simply because EAS is THE event of the year, and to not go is to miss out on the social aspects of the meeting<<< Well, maybe -- but, for those who are wondering -- I've given up and decided not to pre-register. I'll be in the area at that time, and may attempt to drop in on the meeting, especially if I can find out more about the program before then. I guess I'm disappointed, since I had planned to attend, and had planned my schedule around the event, but I'm getting very mixed reviews on EAS, and the material available does not really allow me to decide for myself. In response to replies like the quote above, I'd like to say that I've attended the Niagara Falls meeting, the AHPA meeting, and the ABF meeting this year, as well as some other, more minor meetings. For me, and many others, a detailed advance program is a minimum requirement, and all other events listed here were able to provide one. Sure, there are always changes, and sometimes major ones, due to life events beyond anyone's control, but that is understood. As it happens, I have heard a number of the featured speakers at least once, and some three or four times. I'd like to know when, where and what they will be presenting. Maybe this is THE event of the year (I really doubt it) but there is a good chance I'll never find out. At any rate, I'm headed east this summer, as far as Rhode Island, Maine and PEI, and a number of people have written, saying to be sure to drop by. If you're along that route and would like to see us as we pass through, just drop me a line. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ If you don't put your supers on early, you'll have no clue what your bees could have accomplished. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 10:44:04 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") In-Reply-To: <3EED7AC3.24096.50103A2@localhost> Dave said: > While the maps can give some clues, they cannot be > simplistically interpreted. I'd prefer that we use the phrase "directly interpreted" rather than the more argumentative phrase "simplistically interpreted". Even then, I'm not sure what "reading between the lines" is required. Given all the field work that went into the maps, the multi-year dataset that supports the maps, the clear definitions of each color (you can click on the legend on any state map to see the formal definitions), and the efforts of the large number of skilled professionals that went into doing the surveys, I'd like to know what they missed, and what additional "interpretation" might be required. > 1. Inspectors may not be looking. Or may not recognize > the beetle when they see it. I am sure that all inspectors, and most beekeepers have seen either photos or a preserved SHB specimen by now. But even if (1) above were true, this would mean that detection would merely be delayed until SHB takes over a few colonies somewhere. That does not take very long. The result would simply be a "lag" in reporting, not a change in the overall pattern of spread. Given the unique pattern we have, where infested areas are isolated from each other, often by hundreds of miles, clearly refutes argument (1). The inspectors DO find SHB in specific areas, and DO NOT find SHB in the areas that surround the infested site. Same inspectors. Same techniques. > This is, of course not the case with the South Carolina counties. If not the case in South Carolina, why would it be the case elsewhere? Is South Carolina blessed with more bees inspectors than other states? Better bee inspectors than other states? Superior detection methodology? > 2. Inspectors may not WANT to see them. (OK cheap shot, and > unlikely most places.) Not only (very!) cheap and (highly!) unlikely, it is claiming that people are not motivated or skilled enough to do their jobs. I'm going to pretend the point above was never offered. > 3. Beetles may be present but not thriving. This is the biggie in > many areas. You can find an occasional beetle, but rarely see > them, unless you are specifically focusing on their hiding spots. See (1) above. The same refutation applies to both (1) and (3). > Some geographical factor (perhaps soil type) limits their > population. Nope, "soil type" has been considered. SHB seems to like everything from the rich loams of Ohio to the sandy soils of the coastlines. > 4. Presence of source of high pressure. You know that when you > lose a hive that is eaten out by wax worms, the remaining hives will > have a lot of moths trying to lay eggs. Hives that can drive out an > occasional moth, may not be able to stop every one when > thousands are trying to get in. Same for beetles. One badly > infested hive that collapses can throw off a LOT of beetles to go > after others in the area. And beekeepers have learned NEVER to > put a super of honey from a beetle-attacked hive onto a strong hive > to "clean it up" as you might do with a beginning attack by wax > moths. It simply overwhelms them. This is why someone who > doesn't know what he's doing can spread a lot lot of beetles. Yeah, > even the guy with two hives.... I think you have it backwards. The guys with "two hives" can (and do!) "inspect" 100% of their hives more often than many might consider prudent. (There is a point at which "regular inspection" becomes "harassment".) The more hives a beekeeper has, the LESS often any specific hive can be inspected, and the longer SHB can go undetected. Same for hobbyist storage and extraction areas, as these areas are most often NOT dedicated solely to beekeeping, and must be cleaned up promptly when honey harvesting is over. > 5. Many more variables. Why does one hobby beekeeper near the > farmers market tell me the "beetles are eating him up," while others > in the area regard them as a minor problem? The specifics of any SHB infestation near a farmer's market should be pointed out to one's state apiarist, as this would be a new and perhaps interesting finding. Regardless, if the primary carrier of SHB were produce trucks, SHB would be much much more widely spread than it is. > Why does the population get high one year and virtually disappear the > next? I dunno. I'm a physicist, not a coleopterist. Maybe someone else can answer this one. > A friend of mine had the beetles for three years... > He seems to be in an area where the beetles thrive. He has NO > migratories in his area. But the beetles freely fly from one > apiary to another. The fact that an "area" has multiple beekeepers with SHB infestations does not imply that the SHB are "flying" between apiaries. In fact, just about every official description of SHB includes the phrase "The beetles are spread mainly via movement of beetle-infested colonies." Some descriptions also note the much smaller number of cases traced to SHB-infested packages from bee breeders. Bottom line, if "flying SHB" or swarming were the primary cause of the spread of SHB, we would not have maps showing large uninfested areas between the small areas where outbreaks have been found. > your insistance on such simplistic interpretation Again, the term "simplistic" appears. How is noting where SHB has and has not been detected by skilled professionals over a period of years "simplistic"? What "more sophisticated" analysis would one prefer? > of questionable maps And just how are the maps "questionable"? They are the work product of the best and brightest available. The fact that many isolated outbreaks have been found and "controlled" BEFORE they got out of hand supports the stance that these folks are on their toes, and know what to look for. > gives me the strong impression that your conclusion was made before > you saw the data, and continues to be made despite additional data.... I'll be charitable, and also ignore the above. I also await any actual data that might shed more light on the situation. (Note I said "data" and not "wishful thinking".) The points offered above are mere argument and speculation, and are easily refuted by the clear and compelling evidence at hand. Nothing would make me happier than to find out that SHB is not spread by beekeepers, but as it is, it seems clear that we have no one to blame but ourselves. > I know a lot of hobby beekeepers and a lot of commercial > beekeepers. While I respect and enjoy relationships with both, I > find the commercial guys (the awful migratories) to be much more > careful about diseases and parasites than the average hobbyist. I agree. I also have the highest respect for doctors, but this does not lessen the risk of contracting an antibiotic-resistant staph infection at a hospital, something that simply does not happen outside of a hospital. > Let's dispense with the the seemingly built-in bias against a group > that simply is trying to do what we all love to do - keep bees. Claiming "bias" is a >>>VERY<<< serious accusation. Such an accusation should be clearly proven, or withdrawn publicly. A clearly-explained rational analysis of the public record, presented in plain English cannot be labeled "biased" merely because one does not like the conclusions. I CONTINUE to await any actual hard data that might shed more light on the situation, but until then, I'm going to pay attention to what hard data we have. I CONTINUE to challenge the group to explain the evidence at hand with a proximate cause OTHER than the long-distance movement of live bees in the form of infested hives or packages. And I reject each of the following unsupported claims as meritless: a) That the interpretation is "simplistic". b) That the maps are "questionable". c) That the inspectors are lazy or incompetent. d) That I am "biased". While it might be possible for any one of these items to be true, it would be highly unlikely for all 4 to be true at the same time. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 12:02:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave asked; > Why does the population get high one year and virtually disappear the > next? Periods of drought have been shown to reduce problems from the small hive beetle in Florida. Many *home remedies* were claimed to be the answer until the rains came and the beetles were back with a vengeance. Perhaps one reason the SHB was not a serious pest in South Africa was because of their long periods of drought. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 17:49:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Non-digital bee pictures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nowadays you can get any 35mm film on CD as well as on paper so you don't need to buy a digital camera if you are happy with what you have. I am pleased with my old Practica LTL3.. For macro use I put extension rings behind the usual lens. I haven't in fact used it much for bees, more for flowers, and have been able to get, for example, close ups of the pollinia of butterfly orchids without disturbing the plant. I have taken photos of butterflies on plants 10 feet away without disturbing them by putting the extension rings behind a 200mm lens. The depth of focus is much reduced to maybe a couple of inches but the insect itself fills the picture sharply with a fuzzy background. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:42:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: honey processing area question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I have got a problem I have not been able to come up with a solution for and thought maybe another beekeeper might have had the same problem and found a solution. I use exterior metal insulated doors into the honey processing area. The type sold at Lowe's , Home Depot etc. Mainly because of the insulation factor and their being able to keep power washer water from running into other areas of the building. The problem is we two wheel heavy supers, 55 gallon drums etc. across these thresholds at times (raining outside ) and the thresholds keep breaking out. I have got two doors with broken thresholds at present time. . My idea is two remove the threshold and attach something to the bottom of the door to prevent water from entering the main building area when I power wash, keep dust and bugs, spiders, snakes and rodents( if they were to show up in the future) from entering the processing area and keep heat inside. Also the solution must be able to be approved by the health department. These are not doors which open to the outside of the building. Those same type doors which do open to the outside never have a problem as we do not two wheel across those as we use the roll up door. The stock thresholds work good but are a pain to two wheel a 55 gallon drum of honey over. removing the threshold would make two wheeling through the door easier. Thanks in advance and the list is probably not interested in the above so email me directly if you have got a solution. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:41:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: honey processing area question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The problem is we two wheel heavy supers, 55 gallon drums etc. > across these thresholds at times (raining outside ) and the > thresholds keep breaking out.... > My idea is two remove the threshold and attach something to the > bottom of the door to prevent water from entering the main building > area when I power wash, I've seen doors with a flap that folds or slides down to make a seal when the door is in the very final stages of closing. This can be accomplished many ways, using cams, springs, ramps, cables or other mechanisms. I suspect that there is a standard system available somewhere, but it would be quite easy to rig your own. I've personally built wipers on the bottom of doors, using rubber floormat material, either as a flap, or as a 'U' tacked onto one side or both. If set up properly, it will toggle (flip-flop) as the door goes back and forth, Like a windshield wiper. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:35:47 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: honey processing area question > My idea is two remove the threshold and attach something to the bottom of > the door to prevent water from entering the main building area when I > power wash, keep dust and bugs, spiders, snakes and rodents( if they were > to show up in the future) from entering the processing area and keep heat > inside. You need a "vinyl door sweep". There are versions that attach to the underside of the door and versions that attach to the inside surface of the door. The bracket is aluminum, and the actual "sweep" is vinyl. > Also the solution must be able to be approved by the health department. I have no idea what the health department might say, as a determined mouse could clearly chew through the vinyl. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:40:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") Jim writes, "And I reject each of the following unsupported claims as meritless": a) That the interpretation is "simplistic". b) That the maps are "questionable". c) That the inspectors are lazy or incompetent. d) That I am "biased". e) That non-migratory beekeepers created "out of the blue" all the bee- pathogens while writing books on the joy of migratory beekeeping in America, knowingly moving infested bees from state to state to simply make a living. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 23:42:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Varroa Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/17/2003 5:19:40 AM Pacific Standard Time,=20 yskim@CPN-NET.COM writes: > =E2=80=9CMost swarms people are catching,=E2=80=9D Bob observes in a broad= stroke, =E2=80=9Care > coming from swarms from managed colonies. The only swarm calls I get are > in the area of one of my yards and has been the case for many years.=E2= =80=9D And > then he assumes, =E2=80=9CI suspect there are other beekeepers in Yoon's a= rea or > the swarms may be coming from his own bee hives.=E2=80=9D I have gotten 15 swarms starting with my own swarm on February 28th!!! I got= =20 2 swarms on Main Street in Sebastopol and one on HWY 116 at the Village=20 Bakery. 2 swarms were from an old Eucalyptus stump in Petaluma. On a mock or= ange I=20 took one that was a second issue from a Catalpa Tree. I have taken one from=20= a=20 trailer and a dumpster. Apple trees brought 4 swarms. I am in the process o= f=20 removing swarms from 2 different structues. I'm in Northern California. > But, I, too, believe in my bees=E2=80=94-their inherent ability to fight=20= for their=20 > own > survival, never the chemical industry that sponges money while possibly > contaminating the environment irrevocably with unknown carcinogens. I > want my bees to have their chance, a chance they have been deprived of so > long. That=E2=80=99s all. Yes, I am naive--enough to shout, "Look, the k= ing is > buck-naked!" >=20 Yoon, you always crack me up!!! I feel the same way about my bees. I had 6=20 live hives with mites after my first year of beekeeping. I tried every diffe= rent=20 thing...drone trapping, open mesh floor, powdered sugar shake, sugar and=20 grease patties, etc. I plan to do that again this year. Kathy Cox :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 01:02:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Non-digital bee pictures In-Reply-To: <104.30c70add.2c20e6e9@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: CSlade777@AOL.COM > Nowadays you can get any 35mm film on CD as well as on paper so you don't > need to buy a digital camera if you are happy with what you have. True. But the ones I've seen scan them in at fairly low resolution. And digital lets you see if you got the shot now (not next week). And I can take 200 shots a day (and have bee known to do so) and not pay for more film, processing or CD's. Yes, there are many so-so or bad shots, but many more good shots than when worrying about film costs. The delete key works well for those that you don't wish anyone else to see. We figured we paid for the camera the first vacation we took with it. Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 00:53:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Digital bee pictures In-Reply-To: <200306170158.h5H1uL3I006209@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From:Tim Vaughan > Actually, I disagree with all these points. Use the sun, the sun is the > best source of light for your photos. If there's a shadow, just move to > another side. ... > The honeycomb I just went over to my truck.... I find that in the process of cutting the flower, moving to sunlight and then holding the flower and bee in one hand and the camera in the other, the bee tends to get done and leave. Sometimes, you can't "just move" And the best light is not always out in direct light, esp not at mid-day. Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:04:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Riach Subject: Door Bottom sealing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rising Hinges (Falling hinges when closing) help to press door bottom seals onto the floor on closing. They are however self closing and door "hold opens" are required. There are also rubber tube seals the frames of which can be inserted flush into the floor. The rubber tube stands proud of the floor (to seal the door bottom clearance gap) but is soft enough not to inhibit the passage of a trolley wheel. Alan Riach :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:02:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: dance language vs. odour Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net, PayneT@missouri.edu, tpaine@ucrac1.ucr.edu, rosinbio@yahoo.com, barry@birkey.com, ckstarr99@hotmail.com, bayer@sbceo.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Barry Donovan disagreed in part with my comments about von Frisch's early odor-search hypothesis, which some of us stumbled onto only after having independently come upon much the same hypothesis through extensive experimentation. In his posting Barry included his "comprehensive hypothesis," the weakness of which I had already covered in my 2002 forum paper in the JOURNAL OF INSECT BEHAVIOR -- starting in the middle of p. 870 now available at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/jib2002 Unfortunately, Barry confused the issue in a paragraph of his latest posting when he wrote: >But, the point is that when von Frisch discovered the dance language, >this new hypothesis supplanted his odour hypothesis. In the light of new >data, von Frisch rejected his odour hypothesis in favour of his dance >language hypothesis. Note Barry's comment: "...when von Frisch discovered [THE] dance language, this new hypothesis supplanted his odour hypothesis". That sentence contains an inherent contradiction. Hypotheses don't become facts (as implied in the first part of his sentence) and a hypothesis doesn't disappear because one favors a new hypothesis. Science is a process, not a series of rigid accomplishments that are "not open to question" (as some like to believe). On that point see: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/biossep1993 I thank Barry, though, for the opportunity to clarify this point. The root of the bee language controversy rests on disagreement about assumptions. Those who use expressions such as "their language," "bee language," and "the language of bees" reveal their commitment to that interpretation as fact, not as the hypothesis it is. Facts are something else again -- such as: bees do a dance, that dance has distance and direction information (but terribly inaccurate), recruits search for a long time before they find the "target" food source (but most of them don't make it), recruits cannot find a food source without odor. That last point is why the topic is so difficult. One cannot conduct an experiment to support the dance language hypothesis without using an odor cue (though a few have claimed to have done so on a limited basis). Hence, one can never conclude from results obtained that the searching bees had not found the source by using odor (whether intentional or inadvertent) instead of physical information obtained from the waggle dance maneuver in the dark of the hive. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:21:40 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: pests and disease Lloyd Spear said: > I am sorry that... others felt I was attacking migratory operations. It is interesting that comments that are clearly NOT "an attack" result in over-reaction, prompting an apology where one was not required. Maybe we have stumbled onto something here. Just as an intellectual exercise, let's see how "migratory operations" might stand up to an actual "attack". (This is a test, this is only a test. There is no need for any over-reaction or Ad Hominem retaliation.) As an extreme example, let's assume that Dr. Evil (from the 'Austin Powers' movies) has noticed both the increased prices for honey, and the strong demand for pollination, and decides to get into beekeeping in the USA. He gets into migratory beekeeping, since this is what other larger US beekeepers do. "If I run 10,000 hives, I can make..." (dramatic chord) "...ONE MILLION dollars!" (raises pinky to corner of mouth) So, let's take the paraphrased statements of a "typical and rational" migratory beekeeper as offered by Lloyd, and allow Dr. Evil to adopt them as his own philosophy. Let's pick Lloyd as an example of a non-migratory beekeeper with apiaries near the area where Dr. Evil will pollinate crops. > His attitude is that he has to make a living. Exactly why is Dr. Evil entitled to "make a living" keeping bees? How is he entitled to "make a living" when doing so increases costs and reduces production for those who are affected by contamination from Dr. Evil's operation, those who might LIKE to be able to quit their day jobs, and make even a small income as full-time beekeepers? Is Dr. Evil MORE entitled to "make a living" than someone who stays "local", like a Lloyd? Is Dr. Evil entitled to "make a living" at the expense of someone who stays "local", like a Lloyd? > He feels as if he runs a first-class operation, but any operation > as large as his will reflect the conditions where he keeps bees. > Which is all over. Let's examine this highly creative rationalization. How is introducing a pest or disease (let's use SHB as an example) to a new area any different from any other form of "pollution"? How is it any different from simply crushing the hives of non-migratory beekeepers with the wheels of his truck? How is it different from a pesticide kill? How wide a swath of destruction can Dr. Evil leave in his wake before someone complains? How much destruction can Dr. Evil do before those affected put two and two together? While it is understandable that no approach can assure 100% certainty in the fight against pests and diseases, and no beekeeper can expect to avoid "the conditions" in his area, what happens when "the conditions" of concern were created and delivered by Dr. Evil himself? > Because he 'has' to migrate he is likely to spread pests and disease, > and that is just the way it is. More or less...these are his words, > they are not an apology but an explanation. Well, at least Dr. Evil does not deny that he is more likely to spread pests and diseases as he drags his hives around. But Dr. Evil CHOOSES to migrate, an opportunistic and deliberate exploitation of an artificial situation unique to the 20th Century "developed nations" (large monocultures and cheap fuel prices), one that may not exist for much longer. One cost-savings that Dr. Evil enjoys is that he avoids some large fraction of his "overwintering costs" by hiring a trucker to haul his bees away from "winter". Another of the cost-saving advantages that Dr. Evil enjoys is that he does NOT have to make any effort to control pests and diseases beyond his own estimate of his own "economic threshold". Beekeepers who are affected by his decision to "go migratory" are forced to pay costs that he has "externalized". (Or in plain English, "imposed upon other beekeepers".) Should migratory beekeepers be held to a standard more strict than non-migratory beekeepers? If they aren't, what happens over time? Since we are dealing with Dr. Evil here, let's consider the usual motivation of all evil masterminds - "world domination". As long as fuel remains cheap, Dr. Evil's plan would logically be to suppress the development of competition in the form of local pollinating beekeepers and large non-migratory honey producers in multiple ways: a) By making assurances that he will deliver large numbers of hives under a single contract, and then playing the growers off against regulatory officials who might try to impose a quarantine to protect the area from diseases and/or pests. b) By offering such large numbers of hives from a single source, Dr. Evil also reduces the price paid for pollination hives, and thereby discourages the forming of pollination co-ops where multiple beekeepers might pool their hives and meet the needs of one or more nearby growers. (While offering lower prices via economies of scale is not "unfair competition" in itself, it does tend suppress competition. Look at Wal-Mart's effect on locally-owned and managed stores.) c) By spreading pests and diseases that would otherwise not appear in the area, raising costs and hive losses for potential competitors who might otherwise be able expand and satisfy the pollination demand with local hives. d) By creating a situation where migration to warmer climates for "overwintering" becomes a REQUIRED aspect of beekeeping, so that the stresses of diseases and pests are not combined with the stress inherent in "overwintering", a fatal combination. e) By dismissing out of hand any approach to disease and pest control tailor-made for his unique way of keeping bees (which means that he can dismiss an effective, but labor-intensive approach to controlling pests and diseases as "impractical", when what it really is nothing but "more costly" (i.e., might require hives to be looked at more than once per fiscal quarter). f) Since Dr. Evil "makes a living" keeping bees, he fights honey imports from other countries, even though the beekeepers in those other countries ALSO "make a living" keeping bees, and produce honey that is cheaper than Dr. Evil's honey simply because they are willing (or forced by circumstance) to accept a much lower standard of living than Dr. Evil would. Wow, Dr. Evil can become the ONLY beekeeper of any size in short order! But is Dr. Evil strictly liable for the environmental damage he causes? Likely not. Proof is hard to come by, and the henchmen of Dr. Evil can make sure that not a word is spoken in criticism of Dr. Evil by repeating the mantra "Dr. Evil is one of the biggest beekeepers on the planet", attempting to preserve the artificial perception of a connection between "size of operation" and "quality of operations". Dr. Evil's henchmen can even browbeat Lloyd into APOLOGIZING for daring to even appear to question the impact of Dr. Evil's attempts to make a profit on Lloyd's attempt to also make a profit. In actual fact, Dr. Evil hires henchmen to do the actual beekeeping work, and still other henchmen to drive the trucks, so even if someone were to complain loudly, Dr. Evil could simply blame "an employee's error", and fire a henchman or two to placate the outraged, and avoid regulation. Dr. Evil need never even see a hive. Dr. Evil need not even leave his lair on some remote island. Dr. Evil need never pick up a hive tool. That's what would happen if Dr. Evil got into beekeeping. Would he make "one MILLION dollars"? Likely not - the margins are very slim, and the risks are high. Would he make more money than he would cost others? I'm not sure. He might, then again, he might not. Next week, we'll look at how St. Francis of Assisi might get into "migratory beekeeping", and compare. jim (Its PARODY. Laugh! Any similarity between this parody and your reality is completely intentional.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:04:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jack Grimshaw Subject: EAS 2003 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen, As a EAS member,hobbyist beekeeper,and lurker on Bee-L;I feel I must respond to your posts concerning the EAS 2003 meeting in Maine.I urge you to attend,if not for your sake,then for ours.The benifits of a meeting such as this are not the scripted lectures that so many meetings seem to have but the shared beekeeping stories and experiences.Most of the sesions are informal and everyone is encouraged to participate.Its like Bee-L only in person.Having visited your web site and read your posts,I know you will have something to say.I ,and I'm sure Jim( who,although quite an accurrate shot,tends to shoot from the hip)Fischer,would love to hear it. The 25$ usage fee(which also covers the noon meal) is for people like me.I have camped for the last two conferences and what I save in dorm rates more than pays for the short course.(Whites Beach Campground-90$ for the week-tent site-supposedly 10 min. away)Each meeting venue has its quirks,and i"m sure this fee could have been tacked on to the conference registration instead.I'm sure we can find room for your camper (land yacht) somewhere but they probably won't let you sleep in it.If you stay at the campground,just hang your thumb at the exit with your cardboard EAS sign and if I don't pick you up,some other beekeeper/camper will. Enjoy your trip East at any rate.I recommend Acadia National Park in Me.for you flatlanders,but stay on the east side of Somes Sound to avoid the crowds.Somes Sound View Campground in Somesville used to be good but reservations most likely will be needed.On PEI there used to be a beautiful Provincial campground on the S/E shore.And then there was that campsite on the bluff over looking the Atlantic in Cape Breton.................. And an aside to Jim Fischer.Your comparison of an EAS meeting to a Grateful Dead concert I think is a stretch.The vendors are sanctioned,their wares are legal,the traffic isn't tied up for miles,and that sweet smell in the air is the honey barbeque sauce in the dining hall. Jack Grimshaw who enjoys Dead shows and EAS meetings :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:10:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: honey processing area question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob, Would it be easier to build a wooden bridge over the threshold? You could make it at a shallow climb so the barrels would easily go over the hump. Hope this helps. Garry Libby Attleboro, Massachusetts, U.S.A. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 19:30:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com In-Reply-To: <036d01c334de$e604bc80$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 17 Jun 2003 at 10:44, James Fischer wrote: > Claiming "bias" is a >>>VERY<<< serious accusation. > Such an accusation should be clearly proven, or withdrawn publicly. I'm having a bit of trouble with the logic here. On the one hand you say the maps "are the work product of the best and brightest available." On the other hand you casually dismiss the SC map which shows the area where migratories are, is the least infected area of the SC. coastal plain (for beetles). You can't have it both ways, my friend. Are the maps reliable? Even when they show what you don't want to see? Question: How much "up close and personal" experience have you actually had with the afrobeetles? Finally: "Nothing would make me happier than to find out that SHB is not spread by beekeepers..." You make this sound as if you are reflecting what I said. You are not. I would not make such a simplistic statement. There are numerous mechanism of spread. I thought I was clear on that. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 19:25:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: William Bartlett Subject: Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Bee-L's, It never ceases to amaze me about how many things you can get into = because of beekeeping.=20 The latest thing has been the discussion of photography and digital = cameras. Other things include medicine, religion, history, insects( bees = themselves), politics, cooking woodworking, pesticides (chemicals), = beeswax and all that goes with it, marketing, pollination, bee diseases, = public speaking and I am sure you can name more. I have learned more = about trees and flowers than I ever thought I would. =20 I can't think of another hobby that has more roads to turn on than = beekeeping. Bill Bartlett :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:17:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: EAS 2003 In-Reply-To: <1d4.c1ee549.2c21f59c@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Jack Grimshaw > And an aside to Jim Fischer.Your comparison of an EAS meeting to a > Grateful Dead concert I think is a stretch.The vendors are > sanctioned,their wares are legal,the traffic isn't tied up for miles,and that sweet > smell in the air is the honey barbeque sauce in the dining hall. > > Jack Grimshaw who enjoys Dead shows and EAS meetings Just as a totally OT aside, the vendors at Dead concerts are now sanctioned. Preemptive injunctions were filed by the Dead and others for Bonnaroo this past weekend. http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_news/article/0,1406,KNS_347_2034616,00.htm l However, traffic was suitable tied up for hours, despite their own temporary exit from the interstate (easily a 12 hour wait on I-24 alone) and 40 toll takers at the entrance (replacing the many fewer last year and no special exit, which resulted in > 24 hour tie ups on the interstate in that area). Here's hoping that EAS does not experience similar difficulties. Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:33:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: dance language vs. odour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm a very longstanding fan of Adrian's and very much appreciate his insistance on evidence over rank and politics and his problem with what the Emporer chooses to say he wears... Not to be too flippant here., but.. really people? Question: How does anyone, anything find food? Answer: Absolutely any -- and every -- way we possibly can. Food is the most basic need. If it is not satisfied, the rest (even sex) is moot. We organisms -- from single cells on up -- focus every facility -- no matter how weak and undeveloped -- in that direction. We read maps, we listen to rumours, we take what is served, we watch what our neighbours carry home, and we follow our nose. We beg, we borrow, we pillage, and we intuit. We have even been known to eat our neighbours and mates. We don't just talk about food. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:14:03 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") In-Reply-To: <3EF0BDEA.22115.2DF244@localhost> Dave said: > I'm having a bit of trouble with the logic here. Here's the logic, in a nutshell: 1) The patterns of SHB infestation are "spotty" at both the "national" and "state" levels. 2) The discovery of an "infested spot" prompts careful inspection of the surrounding areas, so the "spotty" nature of the map is not due to lack of looking. 3) Many infested spots are far, far away from any other infested spots. This limits the possible primary mechanisms for the spread of SHB to a very small number of specific types of long-distance movement. > On the other hand you casually dismiss the SC map which shows > the area where migratories are, is the least infected area of > the SC. coastal plain (for beetles). Neither the map (nor your statements) were "dismissed". In fact, a question was asked that remains unanswered: "In the South Carolina map http://www.ceris.purdue.edu/napis/pests/shb/imap/scshb.html we see three counties were SHB was 'not found' as of 11/40/2002, but all the counties that surround them are counties where SHB was listed as 'established'. How did that happen? There is no apparent natural protection for these counties that might block the 'natural' spread of SHB, so we are left with the conclusion that such a strange pattern could not be a result of 'natural' spread." The question does not "dismiss" the SC map, the question accepts the SC map as gospel truth, and asks "Why?" "How'd that happen?" "How could this be 'natural spread'?" "What kind of spread might this be?" > You can't have it both ways, my friend. Are the maps reliable? > Even when they show what you don't want to see? Who wants something "both ways"? I didn't question the reliability of the maps - you did. I still think that the maps show exactly what they appear to show. > There are numerous mechanism of spread. I'm still waiting for someone to list just a few of these "numerous mechanisms", and explain how each matches the unique patterns of infestation shown on the maps at hand. I've offered one explanation that seems to fit the data very well, and I've explained how, in my view, most other possible mechanisms don't fit the data, but I'm open to any education or enlightenment that directly addresses the facts, rather than arguing around them. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 22:33:13 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Dance Language AND/OR Odor Adrian said: > One cannot conduct an experiment to support the dance language > hypothesis without using an odor cue... I can think of a test that might help. Maybe someone has tried this, but I've yet to read about it. The basis for this possibly unprecedented breakthrough in experimental entomology is (like most of my ideas) based upon a very bad and very old joke: "My dog has no nose." "Poor dog. How does he smell?" "Awful!" 1) Take a small observation hive of bees, catch all the adult bees, and remove their antennae, while taking care not to damage their Johnston's Organs. (This technique has been used in studies of bee responsiveness to airborne sound, so the actual surgery, while tedious, is possible, and does not appear to harm navigational or flying abilities.) 2) If they can still forage and bring back the groceries without their odor-detecting hardware, then odor can thereby be demonstrated to play only a minor role, or, at best, is only one of multiple possible independent approaches to foraging. 3) If they can't bring back any groceries, then odor is CRUCIAL to successful foraging, and only the question is "do they still travel to vectors indicated by 'dances'?" remains to narrow down if odor is merely a "final approach" tool or a complete "foraging system" in its own right. Of course, I'm assuming here that: a) The bees will even attempt to forage after such surgery. b) That "antenna touches" are not mission critical to communication, even though such touches are observed in many (most? all?) dance sessions. c) That the taste receptors on the proboscis are alone enough for a bee to be able to judge sugar content of nectar, and thus make a valid "recruitment" decision. d) I'm likely forgetting lots of other things. (I'm not going to maim a bunch of bees in cold blood anyway. I have neither the stomach for it, nor steady enough hands.) > Hence, one can never conclude from results obtained that the > searching bees had not found the source by using odor Down here in the salt mines of experimental hard science (where men are men, and women are women, but particles are not always particles), we are big fans of Karl Popper, who offered: Evidence in support of any theory should be presented as a serious but unsuccessful attempt to falsify the theory. Any theory that appears to avoid "falsifiability" is either not yet well thought out, or was mishandled by the mail room, and should be forwarded to the cosmology department. (OK, I'm paraphrasing here, but that's what we do with them.) jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:21:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Feral Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob wrote, on 16 June, in response to "chemical control of varroa," FERAL SWARMS??? Most swarms people are catching are coming from swarms from managed colonies. The only swarm calls I get are in the area of one of my yards and has been the case for many years. I suspect there are other beekeepers in Yoon's area or the swarms may be coming from his own bee hives. I'd like to challenge your notion that swarms are coming from managed hives, and not feral colonies. For the last five years, I've been trapping what I believe are feral swarms. I also know of long-term, established feral colonies living year after year in the same old trees, brick apartment buildings, and old homes without the aid of beekeeper intervention or interference. Having caught swarms in these areas using pheromone baited swarm traps, I cannot prove these swarms come from these suspected feral colonies. To the best of my knowledge there are no managed hives nearby or in anyone's backyard. Having hived several swarms successfully (not all of them are viable) I've had increasing numbers of hived swarms that show no visible varroa infestations using sticky boards and using my capping scratcher on the drone brood cells. Two of such colonies caught as feral swarms are now four years old (with superseded queens) and I have not treated them with any chemical miticides. Having learned more about IPM techniques to monitor mite levels, I'm pursuing closer approaches to see if this is something that will last more than season. The next step then is to raise queens from these colonies. And my yards do have varroa in some colonies, monitored by sticky boards and drone cells. Having tried the so-called "natural" approach, I've balked at using Apistan. Some of my colonies have succumb to PMS and died out in the winter. These colonies that died were purchased as nucs and packages from well regarded commercial producers, and some of my hived swarms died as untreated colonies. Do feral colonies exist and are these swarms genetically disposed to mite resistance? I think so, but more testing will be needed to confirm this suspicion. And can these swarms coexist in a yard that has known varroa infestations and a tolerance to my management approaches (including my incompetence)? Time will tell. Thus far this year, I've caught, trapped and retrieved 30 swarms in the Jackson (Missouri) and Cape Girardeau areas. The last dozen swarms have been pretty small, but the early swarms are out producing the packages I purchased earlier this spring. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 10:08:11 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Unsuccessful queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hallo. I need to ask for some advice from those of you out there who raise queens. I've been trying for four years now with very little success and it's driving me nuts. I know all the theory from reading a number of books on the subject, and i must honestly say that the three first summers, i've only tried once or twice so i don't have a very long record of failures (or experience). Anyway - here's what i do and what results i get: I use a starter, into which i shake a lot of bees. I give them frames with plenty of honey and pollen, no brood, no queen (i DO know the theory of this). I have also tried a very strong queenless starter colony with lots of capped brood added about ten days before the cells were inserted, to make sure there is an abundance of young bees. I have been using a Jenter box, which is a gadget where you lock up the queen for a day and then pick out larvae the right age for days later. This year, i'm grafting by hand, using a size 00 pen, which i found even easier than using the Jenter thing. I have a steady hand and good eyesight. I have no problems finding larva the right age and i have no problems transferring it to the cell cups. I give the larvae to my starter and let it sit there for 24 hours. I then transfer my cell frame to the brood box of a strong colony, where i've put some open brood and pollen to ensure the cells are surrounded by bees that'll feed them. When i transfer the cell frame, it appears the bees have accepted the cells. They're clustered on the cell cups and appear to be feeding the larvae. After the cells are capped, i put protectors on them. Sometimes acceptance will be low, like 5-6 cells out of 15. Other times, almost all of them have been accepted and capped. Now, on the day when the queens are supposed to hatch, i take the cells out. By shining a flashlight through the cell, i can clearly see there is not a good queen in there. The cell will contain one of three things: -A small undeveloped bee, maybe a worker bee, still white with purple eyes -A small fully developed, but dead, bee -A black mess on the bottom of the cell (rare) Please give me some good advice. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ------------------------------------------------- WebMail från Tele2 http://www.tele2.se ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 04:07:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Feral Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Grant said: I'd like to challenge your notion that swarms are coming from managed hives, and not feral colonies. The notion is not only mine but the opinion of many researchers. We can discuss the issue all we want but the issue can not be proven conclusivly either way. Because you live in Missouri and in an area well known to me I might be able to shed light on your swarms. If you had not the above would be all I could add to the discussion. Grant said: For the last five years, I've been trapping what I believe are feral swarms. You are in an area worked by the largest beekeeping operation in the state. Delta Bee was running around 8,000 hives last time we talked . You are also on the main north/south pollination route for Jester Bee out of West Ridge, Arkansas( just south of Missouri line) . Kevin was running around 3,500 hives last time we talked. I have talked to a couple other beekeepers at Missouri State Beekeepers meetings which have said they live in the Cape Girardeau area. Although you may have not observed hive movement activity quite a bit is going on and with one of the above without netting. Grant said: I also know of long-term, established feral colonies living year after year in the same old trees, brick apartment buildings, and old homes without the aid of beekeeper intervention or interference. The possibility of you being right exists but swarms love to swarm into places which have had swarms before. Proving those swarms are from a local established hive or a swarm which has the power to control varroa is hard. Five years ago I would say generally speaking very very few swarms could survive varroa over two years. We have now got swarms (Russian/SMR/ survivor) which can live longer without treatment and very possibly up to (and maybe longer) than the five year period you talk about. Keven Jester has bought Russian/SMR breeder queens and is raising & selling queens not very far from you. To quote from the Jester Bee Co. add running in the bee magazines: "We use Russian,SMR and Minnesota hygienic breeder queens from Glenn Apiaries in Fallbrook, California." It is highly likely that beekeepers in your area would buy and pick up queens and packages from Kevin and the swarms from those packages would be tolerant of varroa like you describe. It has been around four (or maybe five years) since I was at Jester Bee on business. Kevin was showing me some of his queens he raised for my opinion. They looked excellent! Neal Bergman of Delta Bee will not talk about his operation or methods except with his closest friends. I hear what is going on from a couple of those at times. About the only information I have heard lately is from a USDA offical (last fall 2002) that Neal has been getting large bee kills from the government Boll Weavil eradication program and was wanting compensation for losses. I am amazed at the USDA at times. The beekeeper can prove the government plane crop dusted the cotton in broad daylight with his bees in the field. Write the check and pay the beekeeper. Even the money the beekeeper (Delta Bee) is asking will not cover losses. Sorry for getting off topic. Grant said: Having caught swarms in these areas using pheromone baited swarm traps, I cannot prove these swarms come from these suspected feral colonies. To the best of my knowledge there are no managed hives nearby or in anyone's backyard. The bad news is you are in an area of huge numbers of hive movement and the good news is both these guys are both excellent beekeepers which are up on the latest in beekeeping (and queens). Grant said: The next step then is to raise queens from these colonies. Sounds like you are doing all the right things. Hope to see you at a Missouri State beekeepers meeting. I hope the feral bee population in Missouri is coming back but the best predictions made by Dr. Shiminuki was around twenty years once we found a varroa tolerant bee. "Shim" did point out that those areas around large beekeeping operations using varroa tolerant bees would be the first to repopulate do to the huge amount of swarming from large operations. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:32:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Too late? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Charles B. Cromer" > Hello, > Just was wondering if it is too late in the year to start up another > hive. I am thinking it is, but have another hive ready to go and got that > itch.... I am in Panama City FL Charles, I live in the Northeast (Vermont), and nucs aren't generally available until May-June, which leaves a season around 4-5 months long. If your last good nectar flow is at least four or five months away, I'd think you'd be OK starting a hive, especially with the mild winters in Florida. If you start with two frames of sealed brood/bees and a queen, you'll probably wind up with a strong single story hive by winter, which should winter over in your area (although you might need to feed early next spring). A Carniolan queen would seem a good choice - they build VERY fast, and generally winter over on less stores than Italians. The SMR Carnies seem especially good, from my limited experience. I wouldn't hesitate to supplement with syrup to help them draw comb, since a two or three frame nuc won't have a lot of foragers. A couple of quarts of syrup go a long way toward getting things going with a small nuc, especially this late. It might also be a good idea to take an additional frame of drawn comb out of the donor hive for the nuc to provide more immediate space for the new queen to lay. One small word of caution - if you "steal" bees from a hive, you will be trading honey for bees, resulting in somewhat less yields from that hive. A deep frame holds about 5600 larvae +/-, so at approx. 1,000 eggs/day max, taking two full frames of brood would set the hive back about 11 days. BTW - I think we all know and understand that "itch" :) Good luck. Regards, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 09:13:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stephen and Gail Mitchell Subject: queen rearing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mats, It is unclear from your post whether the finisher colony to which you transfer the cells from the starter is queenless. I use a queenright finisher (two boxes high) where the queen is confined to the lower box by an excluder. The new cells (from a starter) are placed into the upper box, near a frame containing young larvae. There is no other open brood. This works quite well. Both the starter and finisher colony receive thin syrup and a pattie while they perform their respective tasks. Steve Mitchell Steve and Gail Mitchell Bee Haven Farm 4820 Wilson Rd. Duncan, BC V9L 6L6 Phone(250)746-9916 Fax (250) 746-9233 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 21:05:51 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Sv: [BEE-L] queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Stephen and Gail Mitchell" wrote: > It is unclear from your post whether the finisher colony to which you > transfer the cells from the starter is queenless. The finisher is queenright and the queen is kept in the lower part by an excluder. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ------------------------------------------------- WebMail från Tele2 http://www.tele2.se ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 16:06:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Unsuccessful queen rearing In-Reply-To: <20030619080812.KLPP11955.fep01-svc.swip.net@mta-int.swip.n et> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I typically raise only a small number of queens for myself, so my methods differ slightly from big queen breeders and the methods often listed in books requiring a starter, finisher, etc. Normally I place grafted cells in a strong queenless hive and leave them there for both starting and finishing. This may be a hive that I found just recently queenless, or a hive in which I removed the queen, and usually a couple of frames for a split. It seems to help acceptance if the hive was queenless for at least a day. Amount of brood in the hive never has been a problem because I have only raised about 10 at once. After 24 hours I check to see how the grafts were accepted. Sometimes acceptance is very good, other times marginal, but I think it's mostly due to my lack of skill and practice grafting. I have been told that the cells can be started and finished in a queen right colony by a respectable breeder given the queen is separated from the cells, but have not tried it yet myself. I don't isolate the queen before grafting, so the age may vary by half a day or so. Thus, the day before they are to emerge I remove all the cells and place them in hives needing a queen or into 3 frame nuces, leaving behind one cell to requeen the starter/finisher. The only failures I've had are due to poor mating weather or a cold day when the cells had to be moved into nucs, resulting in a few queens dead in the cell. I really don't do anything special. I have found that spritzing the bar and cell cups with sugar water (and honey-b-healthy) improves acceptance, but it may be that the small amount in the cell cups simply makes grafting the larvae without damage easier. (Just read a study that indicated that priming cells had a positive affect on acceptance, though double grafting did not.) I do not use cell protectors for fear of damaging the cells. I have some, but the just seem to small for many of the cells produced, and many of the cells have lots of extra wax and comb on them making the cell protectors unusable. I do reuse plastic cell cups without problems (even though the catalogues say that acceptance is reduced when cells are reused.) Just last weekend I did a small test just to see for myself. I took grafts from one colony, half into new cups, half into used (with the wax scraped off to the top of the plastic cell, and any debris in the cup removed), on the same bar. Acceptance was considerably higher with the old cups. A second trial earlier this week showed no difference between old and new (all were accepted.). So I don't think there is any real difference between old and new (though there is a lack of my grafting skill at times :) This certainly is no answer to your problem, but I really didn't see anything in your description that was wrong, nor have I found the problems you are having (short of one experience with cold weather). -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:46:19 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Dance language vs. odour. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian Wenner seems not to understand that my words"this new hypothesis" mean that von Frsich's discovery of the honey bee dance language was an hypothesis. There is no implication that the hypothesis has become a fact, and so no contradiction. In fact, when I say in my next sentence that "von Frisch rejected his odour hypothesis in favour of his dance language hypothesis" I have said twice that von Frisch's dance language idea is an hypothesis. Adrian says that the information in the dance is "terribly inaccurate". But clearly sometimes we humans have so much trouble understanding our written language that it isn't surprising that there may be difficulties when we attempt to fathom the information that might be imparted between insects by their gyrations. In his 2002 paper The Elusive Honey Bee Dance "Language" Hypothesis Adrian quotes Popper and Lakatos as saying in effect that a theory must be falsifiable. My dictionary says a theory is "opposite to or opposed to hypothesis". According to my Concise Oxford Dictionary, an hypothesis is "proposition made as basis for reasoning, without assumption of its truth; supposition made as starting point for further investigation from known facts". The starting point for my comprehensive hypothesis is that the dance contains distance and direction information, something with which Adrian agrees. Adrian called my hypothesis "another ad hoc modification employed to rescue the dance language hypothesis". It isn't, it is an idea which I believe presents a new and different view of the whole area. Adrian says that many recruits take a long time to reach the food, and some never do. As an example of the application of my hypothesis, these bees might be using the information about the location of the food to avoid heading to the already discovered food, in order to set out in new directions to search for Adrian's odour plumes which are emanating from new, undiscovered sources of the same food. If in an experimental situation there are no or just a few of these undiscovered sources, then many bees may search for a long time before possibly giving up on what is a fruitless search and heading for the already discovered food, or perhaps giving up altogether. An interesting aspect of von Frisch's approach is that in the light of new information he had the flexibility to change his outlook. In their 1990 book on the bee `language' (ie hypothesis!) Wenner and Wells point out how common it is for persons to become so wedded to a favorite idea that they ignore new ideas. Well after around 30 years since the revival of von Frisch's rejected odour hypothesis, there is now a new `comprehensive' hypothesis. Wenner and Wells in their 1990 book showed how the criteria that are generally accepted as indicative of the truth change about every 30-50 or so years. Nothing is more certain than we can look forward to even more changes in ideas about whether bees use dance information. Regards, Barry Donovan Private Bag 4704 Christchurch New Zealand. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:23:09 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Unsuccessful queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mats Andersson wrote: > After the cells are capped, i put protectors on them. I believe you have your problem there. Just capped cells are very fragile and should not be touched if possible. If you handle them before the pupa is formed, keep the cell upside down when fitting the protector. What happens is the larvae fall down from the royal jelly it's feeding on in the top of cell, and end up on bottom where it can't crawl back up to the feed again. Wait until day 10 after grafting and you will bee safe. Happy Midsummer! -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:14:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: EAS 2003 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Sorry for the reply delay, I've had some hardware problems. Jack Grimshaw said in reply to a post of Allen Dick on Wednesday, June 18... > I urge you to attend,if not for your sake,then for ours. > The benifits of a meeting such as this are not the scripted > lectures that so many meetings seem to have but the > shared beekeeping stories and experiences. I beleive that Allen himself is adequately aware of this feature of large scale beekeeping conferences. But I would like to stress this point for those that may not have been to such gatherings before. Yes, there are formal lectures, but there are also fellow beekeepers in large numbers, this gives the opportunity for chat and discussion on any level and about any aspect of beekeeping. In a few weeks time it will be my favourite conference, that at Gormanston in Ireland... July 21st to July 26th. http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/gormanston2002.html I have promoted this conference before, but I am not one of the organisers, I am one of the punters and I promote it because I like to meet other beekeepers and chat with them. It is not too late to sign up for this year and flights from the American continent are cheap at the moment. Best Regards & 73s...Dave Cushman G8MZY Emergency conditions due to lightning strike http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 06:53:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Unsuccessful queen rearing In-Reply-To: <20030619080812.KLPP11955.fep01-svc.swip.net@mta-int.swip.n et> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >I need to ask for some advice from those of you out there who raise >queens. I've been trying for four years now >with very little success and it's driving me nuts. >/Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden I have a method of raising cells that you might try. I think it the best way to raise some queen cells for the apiary. Select a really strong colony. Separate the broodnest, placing sealed brood in the bottom box...with queen...open brood in the top box. Place an excluder between the two. Replace any supers on top. Nine days later, check entire colony for queen cells. Destroy any that are found. Place a feeder on colony. Next day is grafting day. In the morning, remove colony from stand. Replace bottom board on stand. Place a super on bottom, and the top brood box on super. Remove two combs from sides of top box, and spread combs apart in middle. Place a comb well filled with pollen in the space. Shake six combs of young bees off open brood from bottom box...into top box. Don't take the old queen! Place another super on the top box, replace the feeder. Close up box with old queen and move to another beeyard. You have created a populous queenless colony...full of young bees...with not one larvae to feed. They get frantic...as they are hoplessly queenless. In the afternoon, give graft, placing the larvae next to the pollen frame. Cover, and feed, feed, feed! Five days later, bring back the old queen. Place her hive on the stand, an excluder, and then the cell builder. On the tenth day after grafting, the cells are ready to use. I like this way, because no extra equipment is needed. No need to rob brood from other colonies. The cell builder can be returned to production after the cells are removed. Try this method, Mats...and tell us how you did. I think you will like the results. I place about 45 grafted cups per cell builder, and often get 40 or more nice cells. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:17:57 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: Unsuccessful queen rearing In-Reply-To: <20030619080812.KLPP11955.fep01-svc.swip.net@mta-int.swip.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Subject: [BEE-L] Unsuccessful queen rearing > I use a starter, into which i shake a lot of bees. I give them > frames with plenty of honey and pollen, no brood, no queen (i DO > know the theory of this). I would give the starter some frames with capped brood! > I give the larvae to my starter and let it sit there for 24 > hours. Here I would let them sit until capped, hence the added sealed brood to assure enough young nurse bees is present. Then I would transfer the capped cells to either the incubator or a strong hive where the queen have been isolated from the spot where the capped queen cells goes. Bee very carefull handling capped queen cells. They are very sensitive to temperature and shaking. If you reuse the starter then a renewal of capped brood cells must be taken care of. A starter must always be boiling from bees. Queen breeding always involves a lot of young bees, so it will also have influence of your honey income if you produce a lot of queens. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 07:31:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: EAS 2003 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave said: Yes, there are formal lectures, but there are also fellow beekeepers in large numbers, this gives the opportunity for chat and discussion on any level and about any aspect of beekeeping. I, like my friend Allen, attend many bee meetings and conventions. Unlike many of my friends which are only at the meeting to visit I need to see a list of the lectures so I can plan my stay. *I see any event which can not provide such a list as unorganized (sorry EAS).* My life runs off lists and schedules. Otherwise I would never get accomplished what I do which amazes many people. If you read Allen's diary you will see organization is the way he operates. We all like to visit about bees and beekeeping but I will not miss an important (to me) lecture I have traveled great distance to hear visiting. Those which have met me at conventions will agree that I will visit as long as a lecture I am interested in is not going on but will bow out of conversation when the lecture is starting. I also disappear (as does Allen) and go sightseeing when lectures are going on which I have heard several times in a year or on a subject I am not interested in or perhaps could be giving the lecture on myself. Those organizing events like EAS please organize your events early for people like Allen and myself. I have never attended EAS because the event comes at my busy time of the year and simply can not leave. Perhaps as I try to get to the level Allen has reduced to I will in the future be able to attend a EAS meeting in the future. For those which wonder why ABF, AHPA and Apiary Inspectors of America meetings are *always* held in January now you know. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:18:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: raising queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Now, on the day when the queens are supposed to hatch, i take the cells out. By shining a flashlight through the cell, i can clearly see there is not a good queen in there. The cell will contain one of three things: -A small undeveloped bee, maybe a worker bee, still white with purple eyes -A small fully developed, but dead, bee -A black mess on the bottom of the cell (rare)" Is the brood box you have transferred the bees to queenless? It should be! (One can produce queen cells in a queen right colony, but beginners should not try.) I suspect it is queenless, although Mats did not say. I suspect that there are not enough bees in the colony and the larvae are not being fed properly. A very successful queen breeder I know wants 5 kg. of bees in his cell building colonies! That is a lot of bees. Moreover, these bees should be obtained by shaking from the brood nest on a warm, sunny day when most of the field bees are out foraging. (It is likely that the beekeeper will have to shake from several hives, to get 5 kg. of bees.) In this manner, most of the bees for the brood hive will be nurse bees so (1) they are 'primed' to feed larvae and (2) they are far less likely to drift back to the hive they were shaken from. The shaken bees should then be put in the brood hive overnight before installing the cell bar with the queen cups. They will know they are queenless and will literally run to start feeding the queen cells. If you can, establish the brood box at least 4 kilometers away from the hives you shook the bees from. If you cannot do this, expect to find that in the morning about 50% of the bees you shook have gone back to their hives! I think this will solve your problems. Good luck. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:29:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: EAS 2003 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Unlike many of my friends which are only at the meeting to visit I need to > see a list of the lectures so I can plan my stay. > > *I see any event which can not provide such a list as unorganized (sorry > EAS).* http://www.easternapiculture.org/programs/2003/program/ A list exists. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:50:20 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: raising queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I always make up the starter and then graft straight away and give them = the graft, often with 15 minutes of making the starter. I get very good = acceptance and very good quality queens. The acceptance is often 100%! Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 18:07:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: SHB and SUVs (was "Scale in hives and inspection") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can think of several ways for the maps to be "spotty" in the sourwood areas, yet still not require falsification by inspectors. In fact, for the maps to be totally "accurate", yet there still be SHB in those areas (at some time of year, if not at all times). Those who move to sourwood here never leave their bees over winter there, due to the environment not being as suitable for overwintering or spring build up (versus their home apiaries). I would assume the same is true of migratory beekeepers in the SC area. To be on the map, a report of SHB is required. If there are no permanent beekeepers there, the only ones to report are the migratory beekeepers. I doubt many would do so if they already have SHB (after all, that would be like calling an inspector to tell them they had varroa -- they know they have it, what is there to report?). If surveys of hives are done, it would depend on both the time of year (are there hives there just for sourwood) and registration of hives (do you register your sourwood locations?). Until a hobbyist in the area gets infected, reports seldom get filed. At least in TN, several hobbyists have reported being infected with SHB while their bees were on sourwood, but the beetles were not found until after they returned (infecting more area at that point). In other states however, hives are moved into more suitable terrain (in many cases) and more are likely to have hobbyist hives within SHB's flying distance. Perhaps time of year also plays a part? Can someone enlighten us as to the most likely time of year for SHB spread? If the larva go to ground to pupate and come out after hives have left, how long can they survive in the area if a new hive is not found? Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 19:21:52 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Unsuccessful queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 20/06/03 05:03:29 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << I have a steady hand and good eyesight. I have no problems finding larva the right age and i have no problems transferring it to the cell cups. >> Mats, Under what circumstances do you graft? I am wondering about ultraviolet light. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 01:49:07 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: AFB scale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It has been mentioned "ad infinitum" that eradication of AFB from colonies of honey bees and associated equipment is not helped by the presence of so called "scale". This "scale" material results from the remains of larvae that have died due to AFB infection. Apart from being loaded with potential infective material, it is extremely difficult for the inhabitants of the hive to remove it without destroying the comb material. So to the point of the mail: What makes "scale" adhere to the comb material in such a tight manner? Physical or chemical adhesion? If a way was found to ease its removal without comb destruction, would not some of the techniques used in controlling AFB have greater effectiveness? Not really awaiting miracles, but thought that the question was worth posing! Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:54:26 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Dance language vs. odour. Barry Donovan said: > In his 2002 paper The Elusive Honey Bee Dance "Language" > Hypothesis Adrian quotes Popper and Lakatos as saying in > effect that a theory must be falsifiable. Popper's rule of thumb is a good one, but it is not an absolute. Specific subjects in some branches of science deal with subject matter that appear to defy "testing" (formation of the universe, the development of life on Earth, etc), but this does not imply that the theories developed in these areas are automatically to be dismissed as bunk. In a matter of "animal behavior", such as bee foraging, we see significant "variable behavior" that in many cases can overpower the "controlled situation" we try to create. Think of swarming as a good example. There is NO foolproof method that can prevent swarming. No matter what we do as beekeepers, we would be fools to make flat statements about swarming. Given this sort of situation, it should be clear that experiments in "animal behavior" are not as reliable as they would be if one were working with inanimate objects. So, there may well be a large set of "bee behaviors" that would be frustratingly difficult explain with strictly "falsifiable theories". Also, one must recognize the shades of distinction between theories that are: a) logically inconsistent b) empirically falsifiable c) contradicts observations A theory that is logically inconsistent can be disproven without any experiments. The theory "disproves" itself. "Falsification" is a structural thing. One can develop a theory that is falsifiable, and be forced to wait decades for technology to advance to the point where experiments are possible. But if the technology never matures to the point where the proposed test(s) can be done, is the theory "Unfalsifiable"? Of course not! On a practical level, it really is, but the theory can claim to simply be "waiting" for "better equipment". Theories that contradict observations are simply "wrong", even though they may not be logically inconsistent or empirically unfalsifiable. (There are a very tiny number of theories that have contradicted prior observations and have later been proven correct by superior experimental technologies. In these cases, the prior observations were "wrong", or more often, not as accurate as the newer observations. This seldom happens in any area of inquiry other than those that can be summarized as "hair splitting".) In science as a whole, most theories are offered as explanations for existing sets of observations, rather than offered in advance of observations. In these cases, the whole issue of "falsifiability" can get a bit confusing. To make matters worse, the theorists rarely do the experiments and make the observations first hand. > Wenner and Wells in their 1990 book showed how the > criteria that are generally accepted as indicative > of the truth change about every 30-50 or so years. I'm not sure which specific "criteria" are claimed to have changed at what points, but this sort of claim is a very telling verbal parting shot, one only taken from debating positions that are going down in flames. It should be made clear that while technical advances allow us to be ever-more demanding in terms of accuracy, the basic steps for finding "truth" have remained the same for far longer than any of us have been alive. As a practical example of this, one might say that Einstein "proved Newton wrong", and thereby made the "criteria for truth" more rigorous. One saying this would be wrong. Newton was RIGHT! Nearly every physical object you can see or touch was designed using nothing more than Newton's view of the universe. While relativistic effects are important in a very small number of areas, no one who designs a skyscraper or even plots a interplanetary trajectory for a space probe needs use more than Newton's laws. Newton was not only "close enough" for his time, he was "close enough" for the foreseeable future for the overwhelming majority of human activities. As for the specific falsifiability of either "odor" or "dance", I offered a practical test of "odor vs dance" just this week: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0306c&L=bee-l&F=&S=&P=5487as as an example of how the "not falsifiable" argument is nothing more than rhetorical "dance". The silence that met this proposal has been deafening, which is exactlt what I expected. jim (Theories exist describing him as a paleoconservative about theories. These theories lack proof.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:11:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: AFB scale Comments: To: pdillon@CLUB-INTERNET.FR In-Reply-To: <3EF3AB83.2D1C81C@club-internet.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:49 AM 6/21/2003 +0100, Peter Dillon wrote: >If a way was found to ease its removal without comb destruction, would not >some of the techniques >used in controlling AFB have greater effectiveness? Removal of the scale won't cure AFB as the spores are found everywhere. I would reduce the total amount in the hive, but once a hive is heavily infected I doubt removal of the scales with have much effect. It's more a positive sign of AFB than the only source of AFB. It is possible to kill the spores without destroying the comb using irradiation. I know it's used in some countries cost effectively. The scale does remain in the comb, but since the spores are dead it poses no threat. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:36:13 -0600 Reply-To: Mathew Westall Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mathew Westall Subject: AFB - Masked or Cured? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After following the AFB threads on Bee-L for years I wish to report a possible AFB anomaly. The single beehive in my backyard (100-150 at my apiary depending on the year) is used just for pollination at the house. Three years ago I brought home a truckload of scorched woodenware that had "AFB" marked on every 10'th one or so. They were clean of wax so I tested a deep with the backyard hive using my frames. Within 2 weeks I found AFB in the hive. The disease had just started but passed the ropey test when stirred with a stick & smelled the distinctive AFB smell - though slight. Instead of culling the hive I simply removed the brood & 'test' deep and treated with TM by dusting the bees. That was 3 years ago and I've never used TM since without ANY outbreak in that hive. Today the same hive is roughly 4 deeps of solid brood and inspected last week - and healthy as any I have at the apiary, supered up for a good year coming. & that's after 3 years without TM. Cured? Masked? I would suggest that perhaps AFB "can" be cured if caught during the early stages. Certainly this hive would have shown AFB again? If the infected brood is removed & the remainder bees treated perhaps I was lucky enough to kill the live foulbrood within the bees and removed the spores with the brood? The AFB was certainly no older than 1 week as I had inspected the hive the week prior. Other ideas? ----------------- At the apairy any AFB found calls for culling the infected hive. I've found 3 hives over the past 4 or 5 years. Suspected from introducing used woodenware. I DON'T use TM unless a nearby hive has come down with AFB. Though unlike other commercial beekeepers I have the luxury of keeping the majority of my apiary within arm's length. If the bulk of my investment in hives were 30+ miles away I would surely protect them with TM since it would be tougher to catch early on. Matthew Westall E-Bees - Castle Rock, CO - USA -where it's been raining every 3 or 4 days and the hay, clover & alfalfa are unlike any year & a GREAT summer expected- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 04:19:30 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: AFB scale Peter said: > What makes "scale" adhere to the comb material in such a tight manner? > Physical or chemical adhesion? Dunno, so I'll ask an expert today at the joint MD/VA state beekeeper meeting in Manassas VA (very near Washington DC). (See http://www.virginiabeekeepers.org for map and schedule) Offhand, I'd guess that the remains of the dead larvae (which are "rubbery" when one uses the traditional toothpick test) are a "glue" of sorts. > If a way was found to ease its removal without comb destruction, > would not some of the techniques used in controlling AFB have > greater effectiveness? Let's think about this. a) AFB is a microscopic thing. The spores range from 1.5 to 2.5 micrometers in diameter. b) A single diseased larvae is estimated to contain 2,500,000,000 spores. So, if you make is easier for the bees to remove a scale, haven't you just created an "AFB hand grenade" that will spread spores all over the hive as the scale is handled and removed by the bees? :) The morphology for AFB is very very very similar to that for Anthrax (Bacillus anthracis). Both are tough customers, hard to really kill with anything less than cobalt radiation or Electron beam radiation, hard to see, hard to find, hard to "clean up". I wonder how long it will be before Maxant, Cowen, and Swienty offer "E-beam systems for the sideline beekeeper". Right now, this would be a very bulky and expensive add-on to a chain uncapper. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 09:16:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: AFB - Masked or Cured? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mathew Westall wrote: > Instead of culling the hive I > simply removed the brood & 'test' deep and treated with TM by dusting the > bees. > > That was 3 years ago and I've never used TM since without ANY outbreak in > that hive. Today the same hive is roughly 4 deeps of solid brood and > inspected last week - and healthy as any I have at the apiary, supered up > for a good year coming. & that's after 3 years without TM. AFB goes with honey, diseased brood and woodenware. You removed the main repository and "cured" the disease. You also caught it early and treated before you had spores throughout the colony. Our State Bee Inspector gave me the option of shaking my bees onto new foundation in a new hive so I could keep the bees. So saving bees from an AFB infected hive is always an option. I did burn all my infected equipment and could use the honey but not let the bees have it. I treated for a while after that mostly because of the "fear factor' but quit after a few years. No AFB since. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 15:30:08 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: AFB scale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Responding to Tim's statement that removal of scale would not cure AFB. This is the reason why I couched my question carefully saying "..... in controlling AFB". Jim then comments on the creation of "AFB hand grenades": With intrepidation I start to debate with JF!! It must be taken that I am trying to get informed about the status of AFB scale, therefore throw in this for clarification. Hand grenades I understand are harmless until the pin in pulled - may this be equated to the scale? - are they harmless, or have reduced infective qualities until ruptured? To what extent does coming into casual contact with a scale (one that does not have a degraded surface) allow for the transfer of spores in a quantity resulting in clinical AFB to appear? If an intact scale has limited (relative) potential to infect, then an increase in ease of removal could potentially reduce the reservoir of spores that are present in the hive. Potential problem: Scale once released, I presume would then be dumped in the environs of the hive entrance - allowing degradation of the "hand grenade" to occur. This area then becoming a proverbial "mine field". Getting back to the point (and limiting our problems for the moment!). If scale could be removed, resulting in a reduced quantity of spores that were now available to be picked up by adult bees - resulting infection then possibly could be controlled by antibiotic applications - as activated spores have their reproductive facilities compromised. Removing the spores removes the reservoir of inert spores - could this not break the cycle of infection? I am not so foolish to imagine that complete removal of scale would occur, that is if any method of scale removal was ever found and applied. What come to mind is the work being done in Canada, relating to AFB spore counts in honey and and ability to indicate infection rates in colonies from such data. Allen Dick (please correct if wrong!) appears to suggest that AFB infection rates are lowered over time if the scale is removed and antibiotic use limits clinical symptoms resulting from free spores "germinating". Gradually, the number of free spores reduces as they are not complemented by others coming from reserve scale. The threat from AFB, being a chronic affliction in bee colonies, most probably will never be removed - but any technique when applied in an appropriate manner may reduce our losses. Peter (with too much time on his hands!!) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 10:29:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: SHB and SUVs In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 20 Jun 2003 at 18:07, Karen D. Oland wrote: > I can think of several ways for the maps to be "spotty" in the sourwood > areas, yet still not require falsification by inspectors. (snip) > Those who move to sourwood here never leave their bees over winter (snip) >I would assume the same is true > of > migratory beekeepers in the SC area. Karen brings up some interesting points that indicate the dangers of simplistic interpretation of the maps. There are so many variables in the input. More info could be added here. One of the first problems though, is the definition of "migratory." These migratories in the sourwood area, are not the big, bad tractor- trailer load guys that some love to hate. Sourwood doesn't interest the big guys. These "migratories" are part timers who load some hives on a pickup or a utility trailer and move two or three or four counties over to the sourwood. While sourwood honey is famous and high-priced, it is not a large crop and it is notoriously unreliable. Furthermore there is a lot more sold than produced. Whenever big packers get involved and large quantities are marketed, it's unlikely to be real sourwood. Not only are the sourwood areas poor places to keep bees year-round, they are quite inhospitable to afrobeetles who might stay over, in the limited number of hives that do remain year around. There are few places with deep sandy soils that afrobeetles like. Most areas have thin, rocky and very acid clay soils. The winters are similar to northern winters, more and more so as one moves to higher elevations. Remember that this beetle is tropical to semi-tropical in its origin. In areas where the afrobeetle does not find favorable conditions, it may die out between seasons. Or it may show up only in the warm season. Or it may show up only in the honey house. A beekeeper may have bees in three or four counties, but the only county that shows a positive find for the beetle on the map is the one where his extracting is done. That's not to say that information cannot be garnered from the maps. Only that interpretations must have additional data to be valid. The afrobeetle was present in South Carolina in abundance along the southeastern coast by 1996, and probably present at least a couple years before that. Samples were provided to Clemson in 1997 and they could not identify them. The beetle was finally identified from the northeastern coast of Florida in 1998. Judging by the oldest known areas of presence, the most likely site of introduction to the US was one of three ports: Charleston, Beaufort (SC) or Savannah. Looking at the maps http://www.ceris.purdue.edu/napis/pests/shb/imap/usaall.html (Click on the states for more detail) ....one can see that the beetle is "established" in the strip along the coast from South Carolina to Florida, and includes much of the west coast of Florida as well. This is the area where the environment best suits the beetle. It is similar to its native environment. The early part of its spread was in the prime melon growing area of South Carolina. This is the same area where the beetle is still most problematic for SC beekeepers. There have been three theories that I've heard about the introduction at one of these ports. 1. That the beetle arrived in pollen used as supplements for bee feed. I think this one highly unlikely since pollen feeding is not a normal management technique here in SC which has some of the best pollen sources in the world. 2. That it arrived in a feral swarm on the ship. Again only remotely possible. Most shipping is now done in containers where bees would probably suffocate, and ships crews will exterminate exposed swarms. 3. The beetles arrived on fruit. This is what I believe the most likely scenario. It is interesting that the first quick spread of the beetle was throughout the southern counties of South Carolina where watermelons and cantaloupes grow, and one can't help but wonder if there is an association, particularly for cantaloupes. At least the environment is suitable, with long hot summers, and deep sandy soils. This melon pollination is not very attractive to the big, bad migratory beekeepers, as it is only one long-blooming crop per season; it is during hot weather when bees suffer if not given special care; and it is during the bloom of major honey plants in northern areas. So most of the pollination is done by local beekeepers. There is little doubt that these local beekeepers aided in the spread of the afrobeetle. When it first got the attention of the inspectors, at least three or four years after it was first seen by beekeepers, it was at the pollination sites for watermelons and cantaloupes. But movement by beekeepers is rarely more than one county over. And the beetles have been observed to fly freely. So it's likely that the movement of beetles inland was mainly by beekeeper movement, and I think the movement along the coast was mainly by flight, since there is little movement by beekeepers in this direction. Both movements happened rapidly, within a couple season this entire belt now marked "established" had the afrobeetle. I believe that my first occasion of afrobeetles flew in. I can think of no other explanation, as no bees nor supers were moved in the area to the best of my knowledge. A known infection was already present about 15 miles away. My second infection was probably from bees moved by another beekeeper from this southern SC melon belt to near me. I know of one case of a beekeeper from the piedmont, who was doing pollination in the melon belt at that time. Interestingly his home county back on the piedmont is still marked "not found." As to the three Pee Dee (northeastern) counties where the long-range migratories are, and which are also marked "not found," I have seen afrobeetles in all three counties and reported this to the state inspector. But he apparently has not seen them himself, thus has not marked them in the map. At any rate, the beetles are at very low levels and remain so, with the most common sighting being at the extraction facility. Whether they remain at low levels because the area is inhospitable to them, or because of control efforts by beekeepers I cannot say, though I lean toward the latter. One of the first findings of the afrobeetle in the Pee Dee was in Florence County, where a hive owned by a hobbyist, that had been established from a package, was found to have them. I believe the hive was killed, but the beetle quickly showed up in other spots around the area. As noted before, the beetle flies freely; the range of an adult most often quoted to me is 15 miles. Since the beetle can have several generations in the warm season, this could easily become a hundred or more miles per year. As to interpretation of the maps, it would be wise to reserve judgement on many points until we've had more experience of the beetle. I am learning more about it all the time. Some beekeepers seem to already know it all, but I am reminded that I knew everything there is to know about child rearing until I became a father.... The most useful thing to be gained from the maps, I think is over the long term. The maps can identify the areas where the beetle continues to show up, which are areas that have an environment hospitable to the beetles. I think that for the southeast, at least up to the Piedmont, you can *probably* assume that counties where the beetle is "not found" actually have the beetle. But it is either just starting; or because of environmental conditions, or because of alert beekeepers who institute control measures, the beetle stays at low levels. I have indicated three such counties where this is true. Another anomoly: I note that in eastern North Carolina, the biggest cucumber growning county is still marked "not found" despite the fact that a number of North Carolina beekeepers "migrate" there for pollination. Why? North Carolina beekeepers tend to be concentrated in the center third of the state (where most of the afrobeetles are...hmmm...wonder if there's a connection...) and some "migrate" to the mountains for sourwood, a few to the coastal plain for cukes. I also *think* that you will find other counties outside the "hospitable" zone in the southeast, where the beetle has been introduced, and found, yet it will not become established unless beekeepers allow it to thrive in the extraction facility. The environment is not hospitable to the beetle and it will remain at very low levels or die out entirely. I expect most of the northern sites to be this way. In the debate over the big, evil migratory vs. the small, saintly, local beekeeper, it has been claimed that the hobbyist is more likely to know what's going on in his hives, because he has them open every time he turns around. While this may be true in a few cases, I doubt that its generally true. Some new hobbyists may have the hive open frequently during their first year or two, but that wears off. My own experience was that I didn't open my first hive at all for the first season, because I was afraid of them. There are some (mostly) new beekeepers that tend to be clustered in the outer suburbs that are part of a beekeeper association, tend to read widely, and are up-to- date on what's happening in their hives. There are a lot more, at least in the southeast, who are not joiners, and are into bees because their father or grandfather was, who rarely open a hive except to "rob" it, catch what swarms they can, and generally have a "laisse-faire" attitude about the bees. Many of these were weeded out by varroa, but some have come back. Many, upon seeing the afrobeetle, would not recognize what it is, and certainly would not do anything to control it. I have a friend who is such a beekeeper. He is a small produce grower. When varroa came around, he lost all his bees, but didn't know why. So he caught more swarms. I've told him about varroa, but as far as I know he still does not treat for it. If you tried to pull the frames from his hives, they would fall apart. Yet he has managed to keep several hives alive, year after year, since the loss from varroa. While he may be a source of infection for other beekeepers, from AFB, varroa, and afrobeetle, yet he may well be also performing a service to the rest of the community, because he is (probably unintentionally) selecting for superior genetics in his bees. It remains to be seen what effect the beetle will have on him. I believe he needs us, and we need him. I think the bee list would be a kinder, gentler place if we all kept that in mind. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::