From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:27:52 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-90.4 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC2BC49083 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SF1MMC014128 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:50 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0607E" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 52353 Lines: 1267 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2006 15:32:57 +0100 Reply-To: honeymountain@kilty.demon.co.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: james kilty Organization: honey mountain Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 2006-07-27 at 19:31 -0400, Peter Borst wrote: > I would accept an undoctored photograph ... Murray might possibly have one showing a new queen of a totally different race (same as neighbour) in a colony that made a cell after being queenless for some time. I don't know if he has time for photographs!! james kilty http://www.honeymountain.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2006 08:29:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob & all, I will try to explaine this a little better, forget about Joe T's 2 % = or Shad Sullivan 15,000 manage hives (lease bees), the stongest 10,000 = hives I saw in CA, 5000 BEE-L post, let's forget about all the numbers = (sounding BIG ) game. =20 =20 As far as grading two million hives, Mike Rosso up north grades tens of = thousands of hives in the almonds for growers. There are County and = private up and down this state, not a problem, that is if you have bees = in those boxes.=20 I spent six years in college studing economics, I look at the net, & = risk to gain ratio. So far I hear nothing but BIG numbers with no to = little net ( that's profit for those of you in the SHOW ME STATE). How many of your OWN HIVES did you supply in the almonds this year ? My = guess is zero. I would like to know what your phone bill is = (Missouri---Calif.) do you see the reporters in bombed out Lebenon do = their reports via phone or are they actully there? I think the next = A.B.J. report on almonds sould be from someone with LOCAL KNOWLEGE & = EXPERIANCE , not someone who just a few months ago found out about the = almond grading (pravate or County), that is all we need know about your = expertise in almond pollination. This took place BTW on this BEE-L form = if you remember. What does FIELD RUN BEES mean, you use this alot. I am just wondering, = does it mean the bees were run in a field?? I"m assumming they didn't = come form the office. What standards are they up held to. Or are there = no standards, huuummm maybe that's it. I think if the growers are going to pay hefty pollination bills they = have the right to know what their paying for. Not some boogus line like = FEILD RUN BEES. Once again, the keepers with no bees in thier boxes are crying foul. In the A.B.J this month I see plenty of picture of those packages in = the field with frames of brood (July), I also saw some being loaded on a = truck (Jan), I saw Tim Tucker & Jerry Brown working with bees but only = showed boxes and singles ( April A.B.J) there's one thing I never see, = an open lid in the almonds with bees.. You said you were from the show = me state, I'm waiting. No one is hand cuffing them to the Calif almond pollination, maybe they = should just stay home. I hope some of you readers get some positive info from all of this, as = myself and Bob have differant veiw points about the almonds, and = something positive becomes of it. Everything I talk about here comes = from my own experiance, I run 2000 hives in, and thats me on the truck & = forklift, I don't speak for anyone else. Good luck this fall to all, Keith Jarrett CNHONEY@JPS.NET =20 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2006 11:57:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bee and wildflower diversity declines in... In-Reply-To: <000001c6b0a2$28047890$640fa8c0@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: and wrote and wrote :) Wow. I am not in the position to defend the paper quoted, but I do have some observations from real life here in Maine. Blueberry pollination has become big business and the reason is increased yields with additional bees. The increases have not been marginal. The variable that caused the increase was honeybees. There is a point where more bees do yield a marginal increase, but I do not know what that is with blueberries. Also, in 1985 when the USDA study was written, the US was free of both mites, or at least we though we were free of tracheal, even though it may have been around. So there were plenty of feral honeybees as well as non-commercial beekeeper's bees to do the pollinating. We have seen this with squash in Maine. After beekeepers quit because of Tracheal and then Varroa, pumpkin farmers and apple growers wanted bees for pollination. There was a observable drop in production. I started keeping bees for pollination of my apples and veggies. I also noticed an increase in production after I started. (about $9.6 billion). I tend to think that it is impossible to quantify the number of billions of dollars of farm products that pollination produces, since first you have to remove all honeybees from agriculture, measure, and then put them back in. That is impossible. How do you quantify the add on that my bees deliver by being there to pollinate, for free, all the gardens for two or more miles around me? As far as the USDA having the final say, I have seen studies that promote the value of solitary bees over honey bees that were junk science. They were written by proponents of solitary bees and the studies were poorly done (honeybees were actually doing some, if not most of the pollinating). So we get down to what you want to say is definitive and what you do not. And since my bees have added $9.6 billion, we can start with that as a baseline. Bill Truesdell and his billion dollar bees Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2006 21:28:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Murray might possibly have one showing a new queen of a totally different race (same as neighbour) According to evolutionary biology, there is no purpose for which a colony would steal an egg from its neighbor. The colony exists as a family and to continue that family. They raise the eggs of their queen and if the queen perishes, why would they steal another queen's egg? This makes no sense at all from an evolutionary perspective (which is only an explanation, of course, but a good one). Stealing eggs would only serve to perpetuate another family's line, which they would have no real interest in doing. The colony labors to continue raising the young of their queen, their own kin. Furthermore, I do not know if a bee can even hold an egg in its mandibles without ruining it. Unless someone has seen this, it's all just guessing. I would suppose that if this were possible, someone would have seen it by now. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2006 22:08:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Keith & All, >I will try to explain this a little better, forget about Joe T's 2 % You need to get my point! The other 98% of the almond pollinators control the market. Not you or Joe T. Why is Joe T. the almond broker spokesman? *Is* his almond pollination handbook the "bible" for almond pollinators? In short the beekeepers I spoke with want to provide bees without broker hassle. Why pay a middle man? Randy Oliver on BEE-L said the California brokers only take $4 a hive. I laughed till I had tears in my eyes. You yourself Keith said your beekeepers dropped you ( or you dropped those guys) because they would not give you half the pollination fee. Why let the broker hold final payment till May? Especially when some almond growers said their broker had to be paid in full by end of September to be sure they got bees. Broker holds money for six months? Out of state beekeeper pays all bills and gets final payment in May? In short out of state are not buying what you guys are selling. You can keep 2% of the market but you will never hold 98%. Out of state beekeepers are getting ready *now* for almonds. Honey crops are short this year. bees will be coming in (in my opinion) stronger than yours at half the price. Better you hear from me than be surprised later on. Friendly advice: If I were you Keith I would get all your bees under contract early on so your growers will not jump ship for equal bees at half the price. >I think if the growers are going to pay hefty pollination bills they have the right to know what their paying for. I agree! Once we get the broker out of the way then the beekeeper and the almond grower can look at the hives and like I said the last time we talked: . ANY hives the grower is not happy with he does not have to pay for. Has ALWAYS been the policy in our area! The way its always been done. We don't need a broker like Mike Rossi digging through the hives or a bunch of part time beekeepers digging through hives pulling all frames & killing queens. Lift the lid and look, then tilt the top box should tell a real beekeeper the story. You had the almond growers eating out of your hand this year (those which did not jump ship) but can you do the same in 2007? I know many of you California boys don't like to hear what I am saying. fact: California beekeepers put pressure on Carla Markham to enforce SHB at the border costing out of state beekeepers big bucks after California almond growers had flown Florida beekeepers to California begging for hives. SHb had been in California hives in large numbers since the late nineties. Fact; Out of state beekeepers were assured entering California with SHB on board would not be a problem. fact: Carla Markham told Florida Apiary inspection with the new inspection process loads from Florida would not be checked at the border. Sorry Carla but the border people must have not got the memo! fact: Plenty of hives were rejected by California brokers which were solid bees in the top box and into the bottom box (we have got pictures of tagged rejects). fact: Two semi loads were placed in almonds (one in Madera co. & one in Fresno) and almond fees were collected but the beekeeper was never paid because he sent the signed contract for 125 a hive back and the broker never sent the signed by broker contract back. fact: The majority of almond pollination is now being done by out of state beekeeping outfits. NOT CALIFORNIA BEEKEEPERS. "Field run bees" is a common term among migratory beekeepers. I am surprised you never heard the term before. Good luck in the coming season and hope we can agree to disagree on this almond issue. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 08:41:42 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Predrag Cvetkovic Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James wrote: > My best evidence that bees move eggs to queen cells is the appearance of > a completely new queen cell on a clean dummy board at the edge of a > split with cells, placed on top of the parent colony over mesh. In this > case, the cell itself was started from scratch. Hello James and all Thanks for sharing your experiance with us, James. If you like, see the article on www.pcela.co.yu/bell_shaped_cells1.htm about this topic. Best regards Predrag Cvetkovic, Serbia -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 07:50:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: S Wilson Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit How do I explain the large, but queenless hive I saw last week, with no brood (not even capped), lots of honey and pollen, and one queen cell with a single egg, properly laid. They are proceeding as if that is their own queen. I'll hope it hatches out. No other eggs in any cells but this one. Not defensive as if they are queenless. No signs of any previous queen cells that might have hatched. The 28 June I took a queen from them and the new queen flew off as I was transferring her to the press-in cage on the hive. A few days later I gave them a queen cell. Then I had to go out of town. Maybe the next door queen came over? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 10:33:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: >The only exception to the above is when a strong source of nectar is coming >in. Then the bees can pull water to cool the hive from the nectar. Most accounts suggest that water collecting and nectar collecting are both essential but separate tasks. What we must remember is that water is not only for cooling, water is also essential for brood rearing and liquefying stores for consumption. Nectar source, and nearby water source are both essential for maximum colony development. Dr. Eva Crane reported that small colonies given only water developed more rapidly than those given syrup or those not receiving either water or syrup. According to Seeley, one way a colony will cool a hive is to smear water on combs and other interior surfaces which evaporate. Because it is the evaporation process of the water droplets which carries away the heat, if the cooling process evolves bees distributing droplets all through the hive for cooling, I don't think this strategy could be exploited by the colony because the nectar would probably create a sticky mess on comb surfaces if deposited in the area of the broodnest where temperature regulation is most essential. In a article from Malcolm Sanford, (also a Bee-L list member), disputes the assumption that water is not essential year round. “…I was going to say that readily-available water is less important during a nectar flow, but we are learning that this is not always the case, at least during hot weather in arid climates.” (end quote) Here’s some more reasons from the article why beekeepers should provide water for bees rather than forcing them to find it wherever they can. * Brood food is primarily water, close to 80 percent the first day of larval growth and about 55 percent on the sixth day. * Without sufficient water, colonies do not develop. Long ago, Dr. Eva Crane reported that small colonies given only water developed more rapidly than those given syrup or those not receiving either water or syrup. * In the F.A.O. book, Tropical and Sub-tropical Apiculture, Crane lists the failure to provide water as one of three serious management errors, and relates the lack of water to inadequate brood rearing and colony development. Not surprising because without 90 to 95 percent relative humidity in the cells, eggs will not hatch. * In warm weather, bees need water also for cooling the hive. W.R. Sheesley and E.L. Atkins reported in 1986 that in-field water increased bee visits to alfalfa flowers and, subsequently, the set of seed. The close source of water freed extra bees for nectar collecting. Not as many bees were required to search for and collect water. * Atkins reported in 1987 that in-hive waterers improved the 'welfare' of colonies equipped with them. Earlier, Moffett, Stoner and Wardecker recorded an increase in honey production from colonies with in-hive waterers. Such results are to be expected when you consider that the bees of one colony collected at least one-half gallon of water in 24 hours in experiments by A.W. Woodrow at Tucson, Arizona. * Colonies provided with nearby or in-hive water have survived better with more brood and honey production during intensive insecticide applications around them. * The fact that eggs will not hatch in dry conditions and larval feeding is to a large degree based on moisture content of food as stated by Dr. Jaycox cannot be ignored. Creatively using water in areas where pesticides are applied or under conditions where availability of moisture is marginal should be explored by the beekeeper. http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis88/apmar88.htm Best Wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 13:14:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit One of the words that sometimes gets tossed around by a few beekeepers, who probably don't really understand the mechanism themselves, is thelytoky. I'd personally be more inclined to believe eggs in a queenless hive might be a result of that than from a bee flying off with an egg from another hive. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 13:41:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Lindauer placed a beehive on a lava field.......the exterior temperature was recorded to be more than 158F. The accounts I've read give the temperature as the surface temperature. I think the exterior temperature would not be quite that hot. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 21:15:36 +0100 Reply-To: honeymountain@kilty.demon.co.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: james kilty Organization: honey mountain Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 2006-07-30 at 10:33 -0400, J. Waggle wrote:it is the > evaporation process of the water droplets which carries away the heat, Evaporation of water is a remarkably effective method of cooling: it takes about 500 times the amount of heat to evaporate water as it does to heat the same amount of water by 1C (or if you prefer, 300 times that for 1F warming). james kilty http://www.honeymountain.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:10:17 +0100 Reply-To: honeymountain@kilty.demon.co.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: james kilty Organization: honey mountain Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 2006-07-30 at 13:14 -0400, Dick Allen wrote:I'd personally be more inclined to > believe eggs in a queenless hive might be a result of that than from a bee flying off with an egg > from another hive. In the example I quoted the race of the queen was quite different. If I may quote from Murray's post: This colony was all black bees. Classic northern European Blacks. No yellow coloured bees at all. A couple of hives away there was a Hawaiian (Kona) Carniolan, and was a standard open mated production queen, which, as most who have used them will know, means a preponderance of yellow matings, and the workers are actually mainly crosses with Italians. The new queen in the black colony was a yellow striper, and once its brood hatched it was apparent that it had become a 2nd generation Kona colony. None of the Konas had swarmed or were near to swarming. The cell was raised in the black colony, and no manual transfers had taken place. So, did the bees steal an egg from their near neighbour? Seems the most likely explanation. james kilty http:..www,honeymountain.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 18:18:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 13:41:05 -0400, Dick Allen wrote: >The accounts I've read give the temperature as the surface temperature. I think the exterior >temperature would not be quite that hot. Dick, please show us these "accounts you've read", for the benifit of the Bee-L readers, please support your comment with references. I know where my refrences are, but I won't do your homework for you. :) All sources I have located show “above 70c for exterior temps”. Dick, try taking an exterior temperature an inch or two above the hood of your car, I would think the exterior temp would be hot a that place. How hot could exterior temperatures around a hive several inches above a dark surface such as a ’black lava’ field on a hot day get? Ask any roofer or road paver that question! :) Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 18:26:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >In the example I quoted the race of the queen was quite different. OK, but don't queens mate with several drones? Was the original queen from the hive in question from an open mated source or was she instrumentally inseminated? Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 19:28:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Dick, please show us these "accounts you've read", for the benifit of the Bee-L readers, please support your comment with references. >I know where my refrences are, but I won't do your homework for you. “Lindauer (1954) placed a hive of bees in full sunlight on a lava field near Salerno, Italy, where the *surface* (my italics) temperature reached 70º C. As long as he permitted workers to take all the water they wanted from a nearby fountain, they were able to maintain the temperature inside the hive at the desired 35º C.” The above is from E.O. Wilson’s book: ‘The Insect Societies’. The reference quoted by Wilson in his bibliography is a German paper by Lindauer: ‘Temperaturregulierung und Wasserhaushalt im Bienenstat’. (FYI, my brother and I re-shingled my roof about 5 years ago. The surface of the roof was considerably, and I mean *considerably*, hotter than the area an inch or two above the tar paper.) Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 13:12:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wilson writes: How do I explain the large, but queenless hive I saw last week, with no brood (not even capped), lots of honey and pollen, and one queen cell with a single egg, properly laid. Reply: All hives have a certain percentage of intercaste workers that can lay low volume viable eggs that in emergencies could/might be used; as for stealing egg....well, bees have been known to carry things in their mouths, and for intelligence to bring it home maybe....well that is certainly open to debate. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 20:26:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Great quote Dick! Thanks! Even with surface temperatures of 70c, it would still be a very hot environment for a colony to cope with. Here’s a feral colony in the link below that was situated on a black top driveway. The homeowner reported that the bees were in a massive frenzy all over her bird feeder that was covered an inch thick with water foragers. The water foragers efforts failed and the colony did suffer a catastrophic meltdown. IMO, a lava field or a black top driveway would be an extreme environment for any colony of bees to cope with. http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/naturebee/detail?.dir=d450&.dnm=722c.jpg&.src =ph Most quotes on this subject are similar to the one found in Apis-UK Issue No.33 March 2005 (quoted below), where they state “air temperatures”. It does seem unreasonable that air temperatures would be that high, but that’s not really an essential part of my point anyhow. My point is that “a colony of bees needs water for brood rearing, liquefying stores and cooling the colony, I really don’t have a desire to quibble about the details, or the validity of other peoples quotes. But thanks again, that's some nice research! Apis-UK Issue No.33 March 2005 : "Lindauer in 1954 placed a beehive on a lava field where air temperatures reached 70°C. The bees were able to maintain a brood nest temperature of 35°C." Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 17:41:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kermit Carter Subject: Natives vs. Honeybees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit An interesting situation this season here in the coastal hills of Northern California. In the past, the nectar flow of one of our native perennial herbs, Scrophularia Californica or Bee Plant, has been a major attractor for our bees. Now the plants (large areas of them, BTW) are being worked by vast numbers of native bees, with nary a honeybee to be found. In one of the large herb borders we maintain for cheesemaking ingredients and as a bee nectar source many of the plants that would be quite busy at this time are also almost exclusively being worked by native species. Sages, oregano, monarda, etc. The thymus sp. are still covered with honeybees. There is a good nectar flow on, which I suspect is Star Thistle, but will need to be confirmed. At least it looks to be Star Thistle honey. But in the past, the Bee Plant was always an attraction. Puzzling. Preference in an abundant season? Thirty or so colonies working star thistle more than a mile distant when good nectar sources are to be found a few hundred yards away? Any ideas? Kermit Carter --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 09:05:56 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Fischer Alchemy Subject: Re: Bee and wildflower diversity declines in... > Blueberry pollination has become big business and the reason is > increased yields with additional bees. The increases have not > been marginal. The variable that caused the increase was honeybees. Well, I have a grand total of 3 highbush blueberry bushes in my garden, so I can't claim any subject-matter expertise in blueberries, but I'm pretty good at typing "blueberry yield factors" into Google and slogging through the papers so found. It appears that no one gives the bulk of the credit for yield increases to additional pollination, but instead, they cite other factors. http://res2.agr.ca/kentville/emp/achievements-realisations_e.htm#measure "New Technique To Measure Blueberry Pollination Researchers have developed a new technique to measure blueberry pollination by assessing the amount of pollen deposited the proportion of stigmas pollinated. This method showed that there was little relationship between the initial fruit set and final yield of lowbush blueberry. Thus, other factors are more important in determining blueberry yield." http://counties.cce.cornell.edu/ontario/gardening/gardening_newsletter/000277.ph p "well-known New Jersey blueberry researcher, Phil Marucci, stated many years ago that there were a few factors that have greatly influenced the lack of increase in blueberry yield on a per acre basis over the last 30 years. Pruning was the most significant factor he cited. More recent research has revealed that young canes are more efficient fruit producers than old canes. In fact, canes that are 3 to 10 years old allocate greater than 50% of applied water and fertilizer to fruit production. By the time a cane reaches 20 years of age, only 25% is allocated to fruit. (Water and fertilizer cost the grower money and there is no profit in the production of blueberry leaves.)" http://www.mac.umaine.edu/projects/_private/MAC_page/projects%201-11/MAC002.htm "Several factors may explain why producers have not invested in supplemental irrigation. These include limited understanding of the yield effect of irrigation..." http://www.haworthpress.com/store/ArticleAbstract.asp?sid=82NUCNHM6X7K8JPUUB503S CQPH5CA1T3&ID=46090 "Preemergence weed control with the herbicides terbacil and hexazinone in the 1980's provided a release from the weed competition, and immediately doubled yields on many fields. It also allowed for improved fertility management and the increased use of bees for pollination which resulted in even more production. Good disease and pest control using integrated pest management keeps crop losses from pests to a minimum. Recently, in Maine, there has been an investment in use of irrigation, with approximately 3,000 ha of in-ground irrigation and 850 ha of above-ground irrigation now in use. Recent research has shown a 43% increase in yield with irrigation. All of these factors have combined to produce a three fold increase in the wild blueberry crop over the past 20 years. Mechanical harvesting has increased but is only used on a small percentage of the Maine crop, whereas more than half of the Canadian crop is harvested mechanically. This contributes to the efficiency of production since it reduces the cost of the most expensive production practice." http://www.nsac.ns.ca/wildblue/reports/sands01.htm "Averaged over these three sites, marketable yield was increased 47% by the application of gypsum at 4.0 t/ ha. Yield was not affected in the second and third cropping cycles. Mean berry weight and plant growth were not affected by gypsum application." ...and so on, each research project mentioning pollination only tangentially, if at all. So, if nothing else, beekeepers have not captured the hearts and minds of blueberry growers by providing good data to the "blueberry researchers" to prove what you say is true. That's bad. One wants one's customers to believe in the value of one's services. > I tend to think that it is impossible to quantify the number > of billions of dollars of farm products that pollination produces, > since first you have to remove all honeybees from agriculture, > measure, and then put them back in. One can compare crops where bees are not deployed with crops where bees are deployed. There are always a few growers to decline to use bees every season, but one must take care to eliminate "freeloaders" from the study, where bees placed on someone else's nearby crop also work the crop of the "freeloader". Anyway, my point was not that it would be easy to do the work properly, but that the closest thing an "authoritative" work on the subject is defective in basic assumptions, and easily "debunked" by anyone who understands the concepts of "inputs and costs" in agriculture. Not a good sales pitch for the industry as a whole. > I have seen studies that promote the value of solitary bees > over honey bees that were junk science. They were written by > proponents of solitary bees... I agree with the critique of most of those studies, but I am so impressed with the Japanese Hornfaced Bee work by Susan Batra (USDA, now retired) that I started raising the little critters to see how they would fare around here. They are not native to the USA, but where imported back when one could get away with such things. They are much like the "Orchard Mason Bee", which only thrives West of the Rockies. They certainly do many more cross-plant flower visits per hour, and the use of their entire body to carry pollen clearly implies more pollen being left behind on the plants. They also fly in bad weather, when my honey bees all stay home. The only problem with these non-honey bees is keeping the little suckers alive, as they are not as well-documented as honey bees. The initial batch of cocoons I bought from someone who claimed to know what they were doing turned out to be infested with a parasite, for example. Several attempts have been made to ramp up to large-scale deployments, and in all cases, it was difficult to maintain the population levels over several years. On the other hand, they do well in Japan, so we simply don't understand enough, or the bee simply cannot be kept in massive numbers at any one location due to the "plague risk" of putting all one's bees in one basket. But they are an interesting "hedge investment", given the increasing problems and costs associated with running honey bees, and the best part is that the equivalent of a typical honey bee hive in terms of pollination ability is no bigger than a 1-gallon paint can, weighing less than 2 lbs. I'm not suggesting that anyone bet their livelihood on alternative bees, I'll wait until I can arrive at a grower with nothing more than a Volvo wagon full of small, lightweight deployment canisters, and pick up checks for pollinating a few hundred acres every year for a few years before I go shoot off my mouth. Don't hold your breath waiting. :) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 09:05:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?David_Croteau?= Subject: "bug baffler" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I use the shirt/hood of a "Bug Suit" sold for 29.95 from www.MajorSurplusNSurvival.com. It has the pants, but never tried them. the top I use all the time. Easy, on/off, light & cool. Dave -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 11:45:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Even with surface temperatures of 70c, it would still be a very hot environment for a colony to cope with Well, of course it would. It seems absurd to me to think otherwise. >Most quotes on this subject are similar to the one found in Apis-UK Issue What A.O. Wilson wrote in his classic book has more credence to me than what has been found on the internet and quoted in a newsletter. You will have to make up your own mind. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 06:44:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: heated words on BEE-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aaron & All, My apologies to the moderators and readers here for some heated words I = may have used in a spirited debate with my fellow Keeper Bob here on = BEE-L. I think this form is a great learning tool for all of us. I have a hard time staying quiet when I read something I strongly = disagree with.=20 If any of you have almond pollinating problems or questions don't = hesitate to e-mail me . Thanks again Aaron ,Bob & the readership. Keith Jarrett Calif. CNHONEY@JPS.NET -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 08:10:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What circumstances in nature would prompt a worker bee to move and egg? Do other insects move already layed eggs? Mark --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 13:46:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: heated words on BEE-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron & All, I also apologise for my heated words! I have a hard time staying quiet when I read something I strongly disagree with. I hope Keith will at least consider the points I made and I will consider the points Keith made. Keith and I remain friends and have "agreed to disagree" off list. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 16:04:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: heated words on BEE-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When critiquing, it is best delivered with love and respect. Differences in opinions are healthy IMO. Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 16:57:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick Allen wrote: >What A.O. Wilson wrote in his classic book has more credence to me than what has been found on >the internet and quoted in a newsletter. You will have to make up your own mind. I would protest the assumption that just because something is found is on the internet, it would have any less credence than published material. Bee-L and other discussion lists have helped many in sharing a wealth of information that would normally not readily be available to many beekeepers. Regardless of where you find your information, Apis-UK news letter, Bee Culture, ABJ or word of mouth, there will always be things are credible in there form, and there will always be information found not to be 100% correct. Best wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:56:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Heat Killed Colonies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. Waggle wrote: >Dick Allen wrote: > > > >>What A.O. Wilson wrote in his classic book has more credence to me than >> >> >what has been found on > > >>the internet and quoted in a newsletter. You will have to make up your >> >> >own mind. > >I would protest the assumption that just because something is found is on >the internet, > > Some certainly do feel that way. But I know a number of scholarly folks that call the internet the disinformation highway for good reason. There are a number fo feilds where the majority of the infomation on the net is, well, just plain wrong. It is getting better, but remember, anyone with a modem can post on the internet. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 20:04:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder In-Reply-To: <20060731151003.79512.qmail@web32113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-420D594D > Do other insects move already layed eggs? The ants under your telescoping covers sure do. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 18:06:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Pollen, Honey Help Woman with Rare Genetic Disorder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII GO TO: www.apitherapynews.com Pollen, Honey Help Woman with Rare Genetic Disorder The Butterfly Girl Brenda Duran, North County Times (USA), 7/30/06 After years of trying all kinds of antibiotic creams, her back, the most affected part of her body, has become the latest guinea pig for healing potions, the one place she spends the most time trying to heal, she said. She uses such natural remedies as "Egyptian Magic," a cream of olive oil and bee pollen, and Manuka honey, a speciality from Switzerland that resembles caramel. The two are slathered on Cristina's back when she changes her bandages every other day. It is the first time in her life she said she has seen positive results... GO TO: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 21:07:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder In-Reply-To: <20060731151003.79512.qmail@web32113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mark berninghausen wrote: > What circumstances in nature would prompt a worker bee to move > and egg? Do other insects move already layed eggs? > Ants do it all the time. Sometimes I'll disturb a nest of tiny brown ants under a bottom board or inner cover, and you'll see them hurrying off with eggs in their jaws. I've seen colonies of larger ants in my yard moving their nest lock, stock, and barrel from one place to another, including eggs. One aspect of this nest-moving behavior I found fascinating was that many of the workers were carrying other ants which had curled themselves up into a ball; when disturbed, the carrying ant dropped it's load and they both scurried off. Not relevant to the discussion, but pretty interesting just the same! I've been following this topic with great interest. I remember last winter when Murray posted his message about a hopelessly queenless hive (apparently) requeening itself with an egg stolen from another hive and I was fascinated by the implication of such behavior. I also found the site Predag posted about bell-shaped cells equally fascinating. I decided to investigate the matter. It turns out very few people have actually ever seen a queen laying an egg in a queen cup. Francois Huber was of the opinion that bees do not move eggs. The prevailing consensus is that bees either do not or cannot move eggs without damaging them, but there are people who believe otherwise. I'm one of them. I think it's uncommon, even rare, but I see no reason why, if bees can remove eggs, which they can, why they can't move them as well. Probably the best opinion on the matter I got came from Tony Jadczak whose opinion I value highly. I had occasion to ask him how eggs get into queen cups when he was inspecting my apiary this past spring. His answer? "Who cares!" :) George- Whitefield, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 18:10:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Eggs above excluder In-Reply-To: <20060731151003.79512.qmail@web32113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark: Do other insects move already layed eggs? Reply: Ants/termites. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---