From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:31:37 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-81.4 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, ADVANCE_FEE_3,AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SARE_FRAUD_X4, SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D63E4909A for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEr0CR013917 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:50 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0611C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 245003 Lines: 5731 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 22:16:37 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <37e.725591fb.328b8db3@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> In the 'ideal world' of no artificial feeding and no imports the rate of acclimatisation should be fairly rapid. Those bees that are in tune with their natural local environment will produce more drones at the optimum time and possibly more swarms than those that are struggling. It is still hard work, and beekeeping hard and letting the week go even if what you have to start with is mostly week. Amazing, I have been saying what you just said for years, and I am very happy to read what you write here. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 15:38:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Hugo_Thone?= Subject: number of beekeepers in UK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is there anybody on the list who can give me the number of beekeepers in the UK ? cheers, Hugo (half a bee) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:06:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: alternatives to requeening Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 03:31:43 +0000, Murray McGregor wrote: >Yes >it could be pushed higher by using the full bee season into Sept. to >mate more and more queens, but after about 7th July the queens are of >little use to us as you cannot practically get safe introduction on the >heather (bees hostile and unreceptive in that environment). I'm wondering why you couldn't (or why it wouldn't be practical to) use your established hives to strengthen your nucs instead of going the other way around and using the queens from your nucs to requeen your establish hives. I find myself increasingly moving in this direction, i.e. doing less requeening and instead taking the brood and bees from the hives I otherwise would have requeened and doing other things with them, like making up nucs, strengthening nucs, etc. I can see some constraints. Of course, you wouldn't want to break up your hives right before or in the middle of a honey flow. And requeening, at the times of year when it works well, is perhaps less labor-intensive. What I'm talking about might also provide more opportunities for unwittingly spreading brood diseases. Nonetheless, my inclination is to favor the approach. There seems to be an element of vigor that isn't altogether achieved by simply requeening. And issues with queen acceptance seem to be all but eliminated. What are y'all's thoughts? Mike, I especially wonder what you think. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:06:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 19:01:07 GMT, waldig@netzero.com wrote: >>>one company takes maximum advantage of this, see >www.reallyrawhoney.com... > >At $12 a pound, that's great price! > >>>the owners (who are marketers not beekeepers) attribute the fast >granulation to Goldenrod and want to purchase honey from beekeepers >in the NYS "Goldenrod Belt". > >I should call them and sell them 200 lbs... as long as they don't >offer $1 a lb. ;-) Last I checked they were offering the beekeeper $1.35/lb. for that $12/lb. honey. Makes you wonder what the consumer is paying for. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:34:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: alternatives to requeening In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-35E8360F > I find myself increasingly moving in this direction, i.e. doing >less requeening and instead taking the brood and bees from the hives I >otherwise would have requeened and doing other things with them, like >making up nucs, strengthening nucs, etc. Mike, I especially wonder what >you think. Whoo Hooo! That's exactly what I've been doing now, for some time. Allow your best colonies to remain as strong as possible, with ample supers during the flow, and sacrifice the duds for making nucs...which are wintered and used the following spring for replacements, increase, and requeening. Actually, sacrifice is the wrong word. After taking all the brood, and enough of the bees to take care of it, the old queen can be added to what is left over...usually a body of empty combs and combs of honey. Much of the field force will be there, too. The colony will build back up, and can be requeened with the last round of your queens...say on the Goldenrod flow. > Of course, you wouldn't want to break up your hives right before or in > the >middle of a honey flow. Why not? These colonies that you are breaking up aren't making much honey, anyway. And a honey flow is the best time to raise cells and get queens accepted. And if you make up these nucs early enough in the season...like on the flow...then they may be split again, yielding even more nucs from that original colony that you split up. >And requeening, at the times of year when it works >well, is perhaps less labor-intensive. With nucs, it is just so easy to requeen, just about anytime. > What I'm talking about might also >provide more opportunities for unwittingly spreading brood diseases. Well, you are looking at the brood as you make up these nucs. I mean if there was Foul, wouldn't you know? And if there's Chalk...if you are raising hygienic bees, then it won't matter anyway. >Nonetheless, my inclination is to favor the approach. There seems to be an >element of vigor that isn't altogether achieved by simply requeening. It's true. Nucs are special. I wonder why that is. They resist Tracheal better than production colonies. They do better keeping the Varroa load down better than production colonies. And when you requeen a weak colony with one of these over wintered "heifers"...Kaboom! > And >issues with queen acceptance seem to be all but eliminated. Another thing I like about wintering nucs...you can see how the queen and her bees perform, before she is ever placed in a production hive. Culling a poor queen from a nuc and requeening it with another, or a cell, is quite easy. And, not much of your resources are tied up in the process...as in requeening production colonies. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.3/530 - Release Date: 11/11/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 21:04:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't know if I've posted to bee-l often enough to have established a reputation. If I have, I hope it will be obvious that I'm no supporter of the "small cell movement." The moderators will be doubly familiar with my opposition to the small cell movement, having seen all the rejected posts that they apparently -- with reasonable cause -- deemed too outspoken. That said, I think some things have been said lately in opposition to the small-cellers that have gone too far. But first, I want to agree wholeheartedly with P O Gustafson when he talked about "the amazing talent by some of the participants to mix fact and fiction into a stew so thick even the most determent opponent eventually gives up from exhaustion." When it comes to pet theories, I share what I think is a similar sentiment: I don't mind hearing pet theories, but we shouldn't be continually hit over the head, distracted, and side-tracked with pet theories as if they were gospel! Pet theories are fine so long as they're treated as such, which means not forcing them into every discussion on every conceivable subject, and it means meekly recognizing and accepting the full burden of proof. That said, I think it's misguided to split the organic movement into a science-based organic movement and a faith-based organic movement. To be organic is to place the burden of proof on science, which in and of itself has nothing to do with science. I think it's nonsensical to speak of a science-based organic movement. If we're basing our management on the latest science, how are we any different from conventional beekeepers? On the other hand, if we're organic, we believe science, however useful we may find it, is an insufficient basis for management. There's nothing "irrational" about respecting scientific unknowns and limitations, not to mention hidden agendas, financial forces that distort science, pressures from academia to "publish or perish," etc. Properly speaking, having an overriding respect for these unknowns and limitations is what organic is all about. Along these same lines I'm leery of the arguments I've heard about "reality," as in the realities of making a living or the realities of the marketplace. Reality is largely what we make of it. None of us with the time to engage in this internet discussion is struggling too hard to "make a living," which is to say we could all afford to take fewer shortcuts if there were good reason to do so. It wouldn't be too far off -- even though it would be foolish -- to say that the reality of the marketplace demands we keep our production costs as low as possible. That's just another way of saying we must do things as cheaply as possible. Are we really so hard off that we can't afford any magnanimity? The logic that leads us to produce honey as cheaply as possible might as well lead us to forget honey altogether and eat corn syrup. I would hope that as beekeepers we would be wise enough not to drift out into the ocean of the marketplace without any means of navigating or steering. I also want to second something Mike said, and that's that the best source of genetics would be your best colonies, those that do best under your management and your area. This gets back to the discussion about breeding bees to tolerate inferior feed. If your management methods require feeding, then breed for bees that do well on feed. If you have bees or want to select for bees that do well with less feeding, then feed less. The bottom line is we all have different bees, different conditions, different proclivities and management objectives. What does it matter how well my bees tolerate feed that I'm not going to leave behind anyway? The key point is that each of us should have bees that work together with his conditions and his objectives, etc. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 22:29:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: number of beekeepers in UK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, The most recent data I could find was from 1975. Estimated number of hives in England & wales 176,448 Beekeepers with 1-10 colonies 28,108 11-39 2,878 40-100 317 over 100 115 Taken from "The Complete Handbook of Beekeeping" by H. Mace. A British beekeepers publication If beekeeping in England has taken the same course as U.S. beekeeping I would guess the above numbers are less today which is why I responded. I believe in the U.S. every year since 1946 the number of beekeepers has declined ( except for possibly one year). Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 17:01:07 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Subject: Re: number of beekeepers in UK Comments: To: Bob Harrison In-Reply-To: Bob Harrison Wrote: > I believe in the U.S. every year since 1946 the number of beekeepers has > declined ( except for possibly one year). Have a look at: http://www.airborne.co.nz/usstats.html and compare to other major producing countries. I need to update these! The general hypothesis has to be: high labour cost (closely associated with high GDP per capita) equals high operating cost per beehive leading to uneconomic beekeeping if income (mostly honey and pollination fees) does not increase to match. A very general observation....... Countries with high labour content have decreasing hive numbers. Countries with low labour content have increasing hive numbers. Regards, Peter Bray_________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 10:20:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Erin Martin Subject: hello and an anatomical question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi there! I've just joined this list. I'm an aspiring beekeeper and a poet who's writing lots of poems about bees right now. I was hoping some of you could help me with a question I have about honeybee anatomy. I'm learning about how worker bees can develop their ovaries and become queens if circumstances require it. Can somebody tell me what happens physiologically and anatomically when that change occurs? Thanks, and I'm looking forward to "meeting" you all. :) Erin ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 19:28:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: The list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit PO Gustafsson wrote: >Hello Joe, >It has never worked that way on this list. BEE-L is focused on >science, not just exchanging theories. Hello PO, I understand, no exclusions made concerning theories then. What I see is that it says “Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology”. This covers just about every topic concerning bees. I really see no restriction to only “scientifically proven topics” mentioned anywhere. A new theory will usually be >challenged until proven right or wrong. Yes, and even “proven theories” can be challenged because they can occasionally be proven wrong, as is known to happen quite often in science. So, ALL is open to challenge! >New ideas are always welcome, but people must realize that when they >fail to prove their point, they should let go until they have proof to >back up their theory. Continual repeating like a mantra will not make >it true, I agree! That’s why I decided to take my hypotheses on why survivor colonies often exhibit low brood viability, and some feral colonies exhibiting high brood viability OFF list. Then I can share with those that enjoy progressive thinking and discussion of theories. One thing is sure, I NEVER want to become stagnate to new thinking. I know that new ideas sometimes offend the scientific community here on the list, so I often direct them off list. >Now let's say we were to select for bees that were best adopted to >survival without interference from man. Firstly they don't need to >produce more honey that they can eat during winter. Much better use >the energy on reproduction. Oh but there is tremendous selective pressure in the wild for feral bees to produce MORE honey than they can consume during winter. Feral colonies that store more than they can consume during winter will have a distinct advantage when it comes to early brood rearing and drone production, and this can affect colony fitness. Also, feral colonies that store more honey than they can use will have more stores needed to survive extreme winter conditions and supply energy needed for survival during dearth and rainey conditions. << A colonies ability to survive affects colony fitness. (Ref. Seeley, Page, Tarpy) >> That will benefit in the long run. >So we would have bees that swarmed a lot, and didn't give any surplus >honey. That is natural bees to me, what evolution would revert to if >we stopped selecting. I am NOT proposing that we stop selecting. I’m proposing that we be more careful to ad more balance in the selecting of traits of survival (essential for the bee), with traits of economic value (essential for the beekeeper). Also, here in the north the first prime swarm has a higher chance at winter survival, very few later swarms survive. So obviously, there isn’t a selective advantage for swarmy feral bees in the north. The ferals I see here are very similar to domestic bees as they want to throw one prime swarm early, which is easily prevented and urge satisfied using swarm control measures. > >In an answer to Bob you wrote: >>Most beekeepers regress with their survivors. Survivors tend to have low >>brood viability. So one needs to regress the first year, and then select >>for queen fundamentals and at least 95% viability > >Lets see if I got this right: small cells force beekeepers to select >for bees with less brood production. Is that what you say? NO, you got it wrong. >There is nothing said by the advocates here about the need for >changing to a different breed of bees during the process. Where did I say you needed to change into a different breed? I think it's >fair to those to explain the downsides with the process, don't you >also think so Joe? I would be happy to explain the down sides! I will say that most downsides occur when people think small cell is a “treatment”. They place it in and expect be a 'cure all for bad breeding' or 'bad beekeeping' practices. >So will you please let us know how much honey you bees were producing >before the varroa entered, and what average you are making now. If the >other small cell advocates would also join with their results, it >would give us a better idea of what to expect. So as not to compare apples with oranges, I’ll state that the average honey yield here in Pennsylvania was 56 Lbs in 2004, and 54 Lbs in 2005. Pre varroa, I believe the average (guessing now) was somewhere near 60 to 70 pounds tops per colony. The few years I kept bees before varroa, I averaged about 70 to 80 pounds per colony. When on large cell and no treatments during the 90‘s, honey yield was non existent, or sporadic at best averaging at 40 pounds per colony. On the colonies I supered this year, average was 60 pounds, and top performers at 80 pounds. But this year was according to reports from beekeepers in my area, a very poor year for honey surplus. So, I think my average this season was pretty good. This still does not reflect the full potential just yet, because I occasionally moved bees around and siphoned off brood from these colonies. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 19:36:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman wrote: >I am not suggesting leaving them alone, I am merely saying that those >problems that can be solved, should be solved, rather than skirted around. Hi Dave, I knew exactly what you saying. Breeding a bee for fit your area will help solve the problem. Feeding bees to compensate for the honeybees lack of ability to cope with the conditions found in it’s own environment is skirting the problem. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 00:10:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Murray, PO and Everyone, >Classic small cell debating tactic............who did I hear make a claim there? Allen asked a reasonable question and got no acceptable type of answer. If you don't make a claim why should you have to stand scrutiny.... Oh...but lots of claims HAVE BEEN MADE!!! >All this twaddle.... create an environment in their mind... but of course this is rubbish as... >Of course the best would be that the small cell natural advocates told us the truth and put facts up for all to see... >( My conclusion, based on no evidence at all except their own reticence, is that, Dee Lusby apart, they do not add up to a lot.) >Its nothing really to do with that. I feel that it is fair to examine the credentials and agenda of a person making a claim before giving their statements the appropriate weighting in how it relates to my situation and practices. Do not turn this into any kind of a war. I and others doing the questioning are not those making a claim so do not turn the heat on the questioner.... It's no war with me. But I do resent it. It's one thing to have differing opinions about some aspect of bee management. That's just about bees in a box. But both you and PO have made some serious claims concerning the integrity and honesty of some on this list. I don't know what has transpired before I signed on a few days ago. But I think I've been included in the small cell camp, much to their consternation I'll bet. But you both sit in judgment, mainly as I ascertain, because you run a few hundreds of hives commercially, if you have a typical European pattern. In my area a thousand hives are considered a sideline operation and a few hundreds of hives wouldn't 'add up to a lot'. And I know of beekeepers who run tens of thousands and manage their operation from a private biz jet. I'll bet they consider those little family operations with thousands of hives, like I've run, as inconsequential. And I bet one of them produces more honey than most small countries. So, adding them up doesn't count for much. I've always been just a small operator no matter how many hives I've run by real standards. >To evaluate requires knowing something about the substance of the person giving the info.... It's one thing to evaluate someone else's management style for suitability. And almost all of my beekeeping skills have been borrowed from someone else willing to share. Else I'd still be catching them in glass jars:>) But it's quite another to plug ones ears and publically degrade someone else while claiming to be so scientifically enlightened. I feel it's fair to examine credentials and agendas as well. Claims have been made. So........were's your figures? What's your agenda. What kind of substance do you have. If it's fair for you to require it for your examination. It is certainly fair for me to require it of you for my examination. And that's not some small cell tactic or trick. That's just human decency. And if you guys won't provide it, then why do you demand it from someone else? Have I joined Bee-L at a bad time? I'd come back because I missed reading Murrays, LLoyds and a few others posts, who only post here. I'd been gone so long that I didn't even know Murray had left. I thought the informed part of the list was the result of what we share with each other. Not what someone does to another. And if scientific credentials are required for credibility, then we'd all better sign out, as the only real beekeeping credentials I've seen on this list, are wornout shoe and glove leather. And there's not a sheep skin hanging on anyones wall. Well, I'll shut up for now. Recede to lurker status and see how things go. I've always wondered why such small things like differing bee management practices cause so much consternation. Maybe because, in the larger scheme of things, it just so inconsequential! Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 06:18:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <587.cf27f6d.328bae0b@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Christ Slade asked: What is "Checkerboarding?" Response: The most innovative technique that will absolutely blow the lid off your hive. The term was popularized by a man named Walt Wright, who later renamed it "Nectar Management." I think the world of him, and not a day goes by that I don't kneel before my smoker and offer a word of thanksgiving. His techniques revolutionized my beekeeping practices, eliminated swarming, boosted production, and increased my joy of keeping bees. The technique is too complex to explain here. Pick up any issue of Bee Culture from the past two or three years and you can catch his column. Or click on this link to catch up on a compilation of his articles. http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/all%20walt%20articles.htm But be warned, not everyone agrees with him and not everyone has tried his techniques. Usually those who disagree haven't tried his techniques. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Sponsored Link Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro-*Terms -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 13:52:35 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Natural bee size... was, Feeding honey to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 15/11/2006 04:01:03 GMT Standard Time, mws1112004@YAHOO.COM writes: <<< wrote: It would be interesting to have a colony without foundation, to see what they drew when left to their own devices, but so far every time i've tried using strips, I've rapidly ended up with comb that was so far from straight I had to start bending it and cutting bits off so I could get the frames out!>> It would be beneficial, when talking about cell sizes and what we've tried, to include in the discussion the approximate local latitude and altitude (if applicable). This would give the rest of us an idea of what type of general climate the particular beekeeper is encountering during his/her bee year. Mike in LA (Lower Alabama) Very little freezing weather in the winter and no snow on the ground since at least 1998 when I moved here.>> Birmingham UK. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 22:54:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: PO Gustafsson Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dennis Murell wrote: >After using small cell comb without treatments or feeding, and hives in >three deeps, yields increased to 90 to 120lbs. Wintering losses decreased to >a negligible level with the hives full of bees and ready to swarm in the spring. Hello Dennis, So you were called in to defend SC when the loudest advocates couldn't answer themselves...;-) Good to hear you are doing well. However, I would rather see they had the guts to answer instead of hiding in the bush and asking you to speak for them. They have been very keen on telling everybody how wrong we are for a long time now. I'm not the only one getting fed up with this attitude, a little honesty and truth wouldn't hurt. Like you I had problems with the web interface when I tried one time to write online. A warning to all of you, don't trust the message you write on BEE-L homepage comes through OK. You probably looked through the old messages in the relevant threads and know what's been said. Previous posts indicate that the ability to handle varroa ( and the virus) is due to lower reproduction rate among bees managed by the SC advocates. That would make a perfectly logical and scientifically viable explanation of the results claimed by them. And unless otherwise proved I think we can safely regard it to also be the truth in their case. >I left commercial beekeeping right after I started using small cell comb. I'm getting a bit confused here. If you were getting this kind of crops, why were you quitting as commercial beek? If you were getting 70-80 kg per hive, wouldn't it make a reasonable income? You seem to be about the only beek (on this list at least) that claim success without using any treatments for mites. I'm really curious how you manage that. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson pogust@gmail.com http://beeman.se -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 22:04:03 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Regarding Pet Theory In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't mind pointing out that the only reason why the small cell beekeepers here continue to talk about small cell is because someone continues to ask questions. It is not being beaten when information is requested. I know not all of us are well spoken, and some of us have poor manners, or not organized enough to produce audit trails of numbers and statistics (I mean everyone on the list). I also realize some people are exemplary in their presentations. I am reminded of a friend who commented on a book and said that he felt the book just shoved certain ideologies down your throat. However I contended that he continued to read every page of the book until the end, and therefore he chose to read the material even if he disagreed with it. I certainly have no wishes to anger anyone, and I hope that none of the other members has such sadistic intentions. I do however believe that although one or more people may not agree with me, that my opinions, thoughts and ideologies as I put into practice have real value to those who wish to try them. I don't think that those who disagree with my means and methods have a right to censure based on their opinions whether those opinions are ratified by "facts" or not. It seems that many facts that have stood the tests of time, suddenly collapse under the weight of continued contention. Once there were 4 elements (earth, air, fire, water), then a 5th (spirit) was added, then the elemental system was abandoned for elements based on atoms. Atoms were the smallest divisions of material in the universe for centuries, however it was believed they could be divided indefinately if one continued to have something smaller to cut it with. Finally we discovered that an atom really was an definate indivisable object. Then we learned there were many types, then we learned there we more types. However they were still the smallest objects. Then that theory was literally shattered when an atom was smashed and the resulting objects were captured on "film". We discovered that atoms were made of two components, a nucleus and electrons, then we discovered the nucleus was made up of two different packets, protons and neutrons. Then we smashed those into smaller bits called quarks. First there were three types, now we know there are six types. We also learned that although they don't exist in nature (at least not locally), that each charged atomic particle had its own counter particle, positrons and negatons. And we learned about quantum mechanics, which I am sure that many folks here would have a field day discussing, however it is absolutely provable and observable that something things which are quite literally IMPOSSIBLE, are not only possible, but probably and also infinitely repeatable. For instance, if you shine a light through a pair of slits, you get wave inteference. Nothing big there, take two water waves and let them collide at various angles and at places they are negated to zero energy and other places they are doubled in energy depending on what phase they collide. However did you know that if you shine a light just long enough for a single photon of light to be emitted that single photon (which is a object) will pass through both slits similtaneously AND travel all possible paths between two points. How is this possible? I know that I cannot get into my car and drive ONCE from my home to the grocery store in one trip, and still take multiple routes to get there. I can only choose one route. The photon particle however travels all possible route at the same time. Don't believe me if you don't want, however this has been demonstrated literally millions of times since about 1900 by scientists and now taught and demonstrated to physics students at all education institions which teach physics and particularly quantum mechanics. It is shown that even with a single photon of light, that the wave interference pattern is still recorded. This is not possible because there is no 2nd photon to interfere with the one photon, however it remains repeatable. Finally, we are learning that nothing that we touch, all objects and physical matter is not matter at all and has absolutely no substance whatsoever, we are literally congealed and viscous vergences of loops or strings of energy with not particulate or physical matter at all. We simply seem physical because the energy is of such high frequency that it becomes seemingly solid to form things like quarks, photons, protons, neutrons, atoms and molecules and all the complexity of matter that make up the physical universe and life. How do I explain energy seeming like matter. Take water as an analogy. When still, it is a simple thing to plunge your finger into the water. Almost zero resistance. However if that water were moving, the resistance increases. If the water is moving fast enough, you can't plunge yoru finger into the water at all because the moving water pushes your finger right back out, and all you make is a rooster tail with your finger. If the water could, relative to you, move at such tremendous speed, it is possible that the water becomes so impenetrable that not only couldn't you plunge your finger into it, but you wouldn't get a rooster tail, faster still you wouldn't even see a disturbance on the surface of the water at all (no line drawn by your finger), and faster still you wouldn't even be able to feel that the water was moving at all. It literally would from your perspective be a smooth solid object. The interia of the water would be so great, that you could not distinguish a change of path of travel and in fact it would not change. This "string theory" is a current theory being studied by the likes of Stephen Hawking and his peers, 20 years ago it was utterly laughable. Today it is seriously being considered and studied with earnest regard. What was the point of that whole tirade? Each one of those now provable, repeatably demonstratable facts were once Pet Theories. Some of the theories and their creators were literal laughing stocks for years, decades and centuries even, however we know these facts to be true facts...and we learn later they weren't facts at all, they just closely answered questions our best questions of the time. We learn more all the time, and with each learning we sometimes enhance a theory and ratify, and sometimes we smash the theory and replace it with a better one, often with a great deal of resistence from our peers. I certainly don't have a problem with detraction of small cell, however I don't mind pointing out that there is a great deal more getting hit in the head with the bible from the detractors than from the small cell beekeepers. If you don't want long threads on the topic, then don't respond with questions or with items we choose to refute the same way you choose to refute things the small cell group has claimed. Both sides of the small cell argument have valid points, and many of the argument from both sides are opinions, based on facts at times other times not. However let us not forget that we are all beekeepers, and although you may or may not be a protagonist or antagonist we are all following the paths we follow because we care about our bees, and we care about the industry in general. Regardless of how we choose to do it, that generally is our collective goal. As a strong proponent of small cell/natural cell/chemical free/organic (or whatever you want to call it) beekeeping, I feel very strongly about how much of my success is due to the management style I have chosen. I don't have numbers and references to back up my claims and anecdotes, however since I continue to grow and remain productive, than I can rightfully believe I must be doing more rightly and less wrongly. If the scales were tipped and I was doing more wrongly and less rightly, I don't suspect I would be able to grow as I have nor expect to continue growing. Censure (censure here meaning to foster incredulity in order to augment your credibility and prevent reception by others to what you would like silenced) is wrong, and so is preventing the innocent from seeing all sides of our collective thoughts. You may feel strongly about how small cell is wrong, however understand I feel strongly about why it is part of my success. As Dee likes to say, "In time there will be beekeepers who are still here, and beekeepers who aren't". Why don't we just let the chips fall as they will and stop hating each other because of our different choices? Respectfully, -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:29:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: alternatives to requeening In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric Brown wrote:I'm wondering why you couldn't (or why it wouldn't be practical to) use your established hives to strengthen your nucs instead of going the other way around and using the queens from your nucs to requeen your establish hives. Mike, I especially wonder what you think. As there are several Mike's on the list I'm not sure to which you were referring. However, seeing as how I am a Mike, I will respond as I see it. I preface this with the postulate that I am not an expert in beekeeping. However, I feel I have read and experienced quite a bit so will answer according to the insights that I might be able to share. I have never thought of using established colonies to strengthen nucs instead of going the other way. I think it is an innovative thought. Others may have thought of it, and tried it, so may have their experiences to bring to the discussion. Certainly, what you have proposed is a possibility. At first glance, and without deep study, I can see little problems with the proposal other than what you have already brought up. It would seem that certainly adding a frame of brood and adhering bees from an established colony to as many existing nucs as the colony could supply, adding foundation on the outside of the drawn frames to make up a ten frame colony and then feeding copiously to fill out those frames with food stores should be successful in the southern portion of the U.S. In the north, you might have less success with that unless maybe you stacked two nuc boxes,one on top of the other, and got the supplemented nuc to fill the second nus body with food stores. What do those of you up north think? It would be a good way to go into the following spring with new queens too. Mike in LA (Lower Alabama) --------------------------------- Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near historic lows - Refi $200k loan for only $660/ month - Click now for info -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:33:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric Brown wrote:Last I checked they were offering the beekeeper $1.35/lb. for that $12/lb. honey. Makes you wonder what the consumer is paying for. Eric Probably the local consumers are paying for the perceived value of honey grown close to them. Whereas the bulk buyer only places the value that he pays for other bulk sources to that honey. Since it is not of special value to him, he will pay only the current market price for that grade of honey. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new house payment -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 21:10:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: number of beekeepers in UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote, > The general hypothesis has to be: high labour cost (closely > associated with high GDP per capita) equals high operating cost per > beehive leading to uneconomic beekeeping if income (mostly honey and > pollination fees) does not increase to match. The GDP is closely tried to productivity. Example, years ago where easy loaders were common place and now forklifts are. Once where hand load extractors where common, now auto-loaders are. All are faster and take no extra labor, many cases they take less. Once 5,000 hives outfits were large, now they're mid size. My point is the data that you guys are referring to is not accurate, because allot of keepers do not fill out the census, county, state, ect.. report which leaves discrepancy in the numbers. Just take a look at how many hives show up at the almonds this year, amazing how dollars (hive rents) brings these numbers up. Keith Jarrett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:46:22 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Worker bees develop their ovaries and lay eggs, in the absence of queen substance, but they do not become queens they become 'laying worker' and all their eggs are destined to become dones of a rather small size. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erin Martin" > I'm learning about how worker bees can develop their > ovaries and become queens if circumstances require it. > Erin -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:12:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: alternatives to requeening In-Reply-To: <20061116042905.15174.qmail@web53415.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6EAC2585 > In the north, you might have less success with that unless maybe you > stacked two nuc boxes,one on top of the other, and got the supplemented > nuc to fill the second nus body with food stores. What > do those of you up north think? I think you are missing the point of wintering nucs in the north. The idea is to keep the nuc as a small unit of 4 or 5 frames. They don't have to be a two story nuc. Placing one nuc on top of another is a waste of 1 nuc. 4 frame nucs winter just fine as they are, and with only 20 pounds of feed. I think that in the south, you could do something similar, once you get the timing down. Make them near the end of the season, when they can build a good population, store a bit of honey, and then shut down brood rearing. There they'll be, ready to explode when your spring starts. Mike Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.3/530 - Release Date: 11/11/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 06:21:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: alternatives to requeening In-Reply-To: <20061116042905.15174.qmail@web53415.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I hardly qualify as "North," being 100 miles south of St. Louis, MO, but it does get cold here, a damp, bone-chilling, cold down to single digits on the thermometer. We don't have extended periods of prolonged cold I experienced growing up in Minnesota. We get snow and lots of freezing rain. As it pertains to the topic, I have successfully over wintered 6-frame nucs in SE Missouri. Why six frames? It was the best size nuc I could build with the scrap lumber I had available. If I were wealthy, I would probably have bought the prevailing size. Instead, I'm rich in creativity and used what was available. I do not stack my nucs. I do not wrap them. They come through the winter on a minimum of stores. If I had one complaint, they don't seem to warm up in the spring as fast, and brood development seems behind my established hives, but once the warmer spring weather arrives, they come on marvelously well. These nucs all contained queens I raised in the summer. Having tried this same arrangement this year, I've also added some styrofoam nucs (see Keith Malone's plans) to hold in the warmth of early spring. I will let you all know how it comes out. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new house payment -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:07:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: re number of beekeepers in the UK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, I was especially interested in the two million hives in Mexico from the site. Rapid increase in hive numbers. Even though the graph was nine years ago (1997)and like Keith said the numbers are certainly much higher. Are the true numbers equal or above the number of hives now in the U.S.? Under the WTO and Nafta we can not keep those hives out of almonds. Stall maybe. Lawyers have been looking at the issue for U.S. beekeepers. The first self fertile almonds are getting a patent this fall as we speak. When you bag the blooms so no insect can reach the blooms and you get almonds then the trees are self fertile. I agree it will be a long time before the impact is felt by beekeepers and some growers will still rent bees to hedge their pollination BUT self fertile almonds have been in Asia for decades. One large test grove has been in the valley nine years without bees. In ten years if I am still around I predict I will be writing of the woes of the California beekeeper in ABJ & BC. HUGE outfits are relocating into California now to chase almond pollination. California beekeepers are shipping their bees out of the huge state of California in summer to find nectar sources. Gold rushes have been short lived in history. Followed by ghost towns (and maybe ghost industries) Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:11:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: alternatives to requeening In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20061116070334.027618f8@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Palmer wrote: > I think you are missing the point of wintering nucs in the north. The > idea is to keep the nuc as a small unit of 4 or 5 frames. They don't > have to be a two story nuc. Placing one nuc on top of another is a > waste of 1 nuc. 4 frame nucs winter just fine as they are, and with > only 20 pounds of feed. Do you leave the nucs physically separate from each other and on their own stand or group them to keep down heat loss? I know that some have them over colonies but independent from the lower box just for preserving heat.Others group them in clusters for the same reason. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:07:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question In-Reply-To: <00ac01c70953$4f9ec810$0101a8c0@DF9MK81J> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ruary: all their eggs are destined to become dones of a rather small size. Reply: Not so, for it has been documented that a certain percentage of the laying workers eggs will be viable for production of virgin queens, in all races/strains, be it Amm, carniolan, caucasian, or italian (which were ones looked at), long before cape bees were looked at for the capability. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510k for $1,698/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 11:16:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question In-Reply-To: <200611161547.kAGCiJ50017763@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee wrote: "it has been documented that a certain percentage of the laying workers eggs will be viable for production of virgin queens..." Let me be the first to ask, "Where is this documented? Is it a significant percentage or negligible?" I'll grant the benefit of the doubt that is does happen (never say never), but I don't know that I would throw out such a tidbit to a query from a newbie who wants to know "how worker bees can develop their ovaries and become queens", without making clear how rare is a viable laying worked. And in the cases when a laying worker DOES produce a viable queen, the laying worker is supersceded by her daughter. The laying worker is never (didn't I write never say never) accepted by the colony as would be a true queen. For all intents and purposes, Ruary's response is more on the mark that the rare occasion to which Dee refers. Exactly HOW rare is a viable laying worker I cannot say. Perhaps this figure is containted where "it has been documented". My understanding (which may be flawed) is that it is such a rare occurrence it hardly warrants mention. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:48:20 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lennard Pisa Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question In-Reply-To: <20061116150742.59638.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed This kind of shakes my knowledge of the honeybee! A percentage of eggs laid by laying workers turns into virgin queens. How do these eggs become diploid? Is there any proof laying workes mate? regards, Lennard _________________________________________________________________ Play online games with your friends with Messenger http://www.join.msn.com/messenger/overview -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 17:04:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092109A65121@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron > Is it a significant percentage or negligible? There was quite a discussion on this on this list back in April... Under the Thread 'Laying workers, you don't want them' The diploid eggs laid by thelytokious bees are formed from haploid eggs that have a modified division process in the early stages of cell division, the workers that laid them have only partial ovary development and cannot get mated in the way a queen does. While Thelytoky is exhibited strongly in Capensis, it does occur in all races of Apis Mellifera, but in all except Capensis, it is very rare. At Capensis levels it is destructive, but at levels of one in a million it is unlikely to do much harm and on the rare occasion that the gene pool is impoverished, it can maintain genes that might be otherwise lost. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 18:43:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Predrag Cvetkovic Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee wrote > Not so, for it has been documented that a certain > percentage of the laying workers eggs will be viable for > production of virgin queens, in all races/strains, be it I've also heard that from one beekeeper and queen breeder here in Serbia - Franjo Tomazin. He said it was about 2%. Best wishes Predrag Cvetkovic -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:08:51 -0800 Reply-To: port128@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Porter Subject: Hive Productivity (was Number of beekeepers in UK) Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Peter, > http://www.airborne.co.nz/usstats.html > > and compare to other major producing countries. Interesting data, and the html presentation is cool, no clicking to cover all bases for a country. > I need to update these! You must have good sources to accumulate this data. > A very general observation....... > Countries with high labour content have decreasing hive numbers. > Countries with low labour content have increasing hive numbers. The yield is interesting. - Australian beeks pulled in 55Kg/hive in 2000 with a peak of 70 Kg in 1988. - The US peaked at 38 Kg/hive in 2000, with the Argentines and China not very far behind overall. Does a 50% higher productivity/hive for years imply that Australians are better beeks? Do New Zealanders have similar numbers to the US or Australia? Thanks for the info JP -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 19:10:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: PO Gustafsson Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Eric Brown wrote: >That said, I think it's misguided to split the organic movement into a >science-based organic movement and a faith-based organic movement. Hello Eric and Dennis, Being in Europe, with little knowledge leaking through on some parts of your world, I find it strange with this controversy between organic and non organic producers. The organic movement, here in the Nordic countries at least, is well established and respected by everyone in most fields. It's almost like we are talking about different things. Some of the EU subsidies are targeted on increasing organic sustainable farming. But it's generally based on scientifically sound principles. A friend and neighbor beek with 500+ hives is running his operation organic. Difference is he has to use organic acids instead of fluvalinate, detergents that break down naturally, only use wax and sugar from other organic producers, etc. Not use materials or procedures that damage the environment. In reality not much different to what I do. So far the main organic organization in each country sets their own rules, that might not be the same as other countries, but with time I'm sure it will even out and lead to similar rules around the globe. I have little against organic beekeeping, it's the way a small group of very loud persons are using BEE-L for their own interest I disagree with. However, I fail to understand the reason behind it... Dennis wrote: >But you both sit in judgment, mainly as I ascertain, because you run a few >hundreds of hives commercially, if you have a typical European pattern. That shows a lack of knowledge of European beekeeping. You are talking about what it looked like 10-15 years ago. Yes we generally have a more labour intense way of managing the bees. This means better control of what's happening and thus a better average result than extensively run hives. With better hive material, more efficient equipment, we are now also increasing hive numbers. Without loosing the important control. If you look at what really counts, production per man hour, I believe that we can well match the American beek under equal conditions. The main disadvantage so far has been the many different hive models that made it hard to produce efficient machinery for all frame sizes. This has changed, Langstroth is now becoming the std here too. Commercial beekeeping here is from 500 hives upwards. There are operations of several thousand hives. >I'd been gone so long that I didn't even know Murray had left. I thought the informed part of >the list was the result of what we share with each other. If you had been here you might have been as frustrated about what was going on as we were. The list was moving away from being informed, and about to become a graffiti board for a few. I had the option of logging off or speak up. I hesitantly choose the latter. >. So........were's your figures? If you go back a little in the posts you will find them. I'm not asking for more than I'm prepared to supply myself. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson pogust@gmail.com http://beeman.se -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:34:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: The list In-Reply-To: <200611160432.kAG2DUEf023870@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I spent about 3 hours last evening writing the following editorial, and have been debating all day whether to send it. Submitted for what it's wroth. EDITORIAL: Folks, this is simply getting out of hand. I am caught between a rock and a hard place. It has always been my intent to have BEE-L a list for the Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology. Lately it has been a cesspool for unsubstantiated claims, assaults on those making them, and counter attacks on those who rightfully point out that unsubstantiated claims have been and continue to be made. I am cast in an impossible role of keeper of the peace. Claims of small cell have been made, repeatedly. Some adamant proponents have asserted that small cell will resolve everything from Varroa problems to brood diseases and return beekeeping to the glory days of our grandfathers when all one needed to do was put a hive of bees out in the spring and harvest copious amounts of honey in the fall. Less ardent small cell beekeepers make fewer claims, and recently one supporter claimed that no one every claimed that which the most fervent supporters have repeatedly claimed. Truthfully the small cell camp is all over the board. On the other side are those who don't buy the pitch. Some camp out in the show me state, others have been absent for long periods of time and are surprised to come back only to discover that the controversy persists unabated. Actually, there are members in both camps surprised that this folderol is still going on. Regardless, there are many who point out that the small cell claims are unsubstantiated in the research circles, to which the advocates cry, we don't need no stinkin' verification at universities or bee labs, we know it works! The proof is in our apiaries! No matter how often it is said, no matter how loudly it is said, it remains without a doubt that small cell claims are unsubstantiated in accredited research circles. And yes, there are some who don't need no stinkin' verification at universities or bee labs. This has been established, time and time again. The latest fray, being turned into a "Big bad commercial vs. small scale beekeeping" discussion, came with requests to define ones' self in the wide spectrum that is beekeeping. A request to know the credentials of a proponent of an idea is a valid request, regardless of the idea. I was at a conference this summer where someone in the auditorium heaped high praises upon Russian queens. The man, whom I did not know and could not see (he was at the back of the auditorium, I was at the front, and the lights were dim) gave glowing testimony to Russian bees. My first reaction had nothing to do with his assertions, my first reaction was, "Who is this guy, how big is his operation, and what sort of return is he getting from the Russian bees that he is so highly recommending?" Please note that this conjecture did not include an iota of character assessment or evaluation, I merely wanted to know how the testimony given stacked up to where I am in the beekeeping arena. My perception of the recent queries for indications of financial return on small cell operations is exactly the same. Is small cell generating a positive balance sheet, positive enough to make a living solely from small cell beekeeping, or must one have a day job to support the small cell operation? That seems like a legitimate question to me, worthy of a civil answer without vilifying the person who asked. I have always wished there was a biographies web to go along with BEE-L so readers could get to know the contributors, where one could surf to find out if Edie from Arkansas keeps ten or ten thousand hives, or how long Jane from Japan has been keeping the bees she keeps, or if Candy from Canada makes a living solely from keeping bees or if she has a day job to support her beekeeping habit. Knowing the beekeeper helps one evaluate how closely to follow the advice said beekeeper offers. No character judgment, just credential evaluation. Scathing rebukes beget scathing rebukes. The purpose of moderation is to minimize the brouhaha. It is unfortunate that points get lost, but if a post doesn't get approved, especially in the small cell arena, it is likely that the post is somewhere between slightly offensive to chock full of malfeasance, which, were the post approved will only evoke responses that are even more offensive. My inbox reeks of posts from all sides with a few good points sandwiched between savage attacks on the mothers who begat beekeepers who dare to challenge assertions of others. My inbox reeks even more with follow ups to posts that didn't get approved the first time around, accusing me of attempting to influence the discussion, showing favoritism to one side or other, decrying foul in moderation and declaring the issue closed because points made attached to scathing rebukes do not get approved. It reminds me of good bills that pass in Congress with all sorts of attached political patronage. The pork makes a good bill bad. Such are many unapproved posts; the good points are overwhelmed by the nasty snipes. If a post is not approved, rather than berate the moderators, please go back and examine the submission and ask what are the good points and might the points be made without assailing the author (or camp). Trolls beget trolls, and I too tire of the melee. As observed by more than a few lately, I have come close to signing off BEE-L. As stated at the beginning of this post, what is supposed to be a list for the Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology has lately been a cesspool of bickering. What most amazes me is that many contributors seem more intent on bickering than desiring to offer to help fellow beekeepers. I am at a loss to affect that. I have thought about just opening BEE-L up, letting everything go through, letting BEE-L reek as badly as does my inbox. If readers are appalled by the applesauce on BEE-L lately, just be thankful that you don't see all the flapdoodle in my inbox! (I should give credit to thesaurus.com for applesauce and flapdoodle, both of which are synonyms for crap). I have more than occasionally considered signing off from BEE-L. Unfortunately, if I go BEE-L goes with me. I'm not altogether convinced that would be a bad thing. But there are gems in the discussions. Would that we'd keep it civil and on topic. Additions to the discussions are welcome. Justifications for being rude don't. Keep it civil, keep it informed. Aaron Morris - BEE-L Owner/Editor/Moderator/Janitor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:47:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Natural bee size... was, Feeding honey to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 15/11/2006 04:01:03 GMT Standard Time, mws1112004@YAHOO.COM writes: so far every time i've tried using strips, I've rapidly ended up with comb that was so far from straight This can happen sometimes. Very much less so if you level the hive with spirit level and wedges; pay extra attention to spacing; persuade any meandering comb back to the straight and narrow with a hive tool before it becomes too firmly established. This works on my top bar hives even without strips: just a bead of wax drawn with a soldering iron. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:14:27 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Wandering Comb / Training Foundationless Comb Building In-Reply-To: <53e.b6ec3d6.328e1a35@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wandering comb, is something that is remedied over time in a truly foundationless system (strips included), where new frames/top bars are inserted between two of the best previously drawn and capped combs you have in the brood nest. Once the uniformity is established, wandering comb becomes an issue of the past. As the brood nest develops, the core of the brood nest is where new frames should be inserted on a regular basis. In the honey storage, new frames/or top bars are inserted between capped honey in same fashion. One thing to remember, is to not place two empty frames next to each other, nor separate two empty combs by a single comb. Otherwise you risk comb being built nearly perpendicular to the already established comb, and that's an even worse mess to fix. Yu want the bees to drape evenly along the center of the new top bar while the chance of chains being draped in the wrong direction. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:13:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/11/2006 17:40:31 GMT Standard Time, lwpisa@HOTMAIL.COM writes: <> I think it's a case of meiosis (the process by which haploid eggs, with one set of chromosomes, are produced from diploid cells, with two, in the ovaries) going wrong. In the first stage of meiosis, the initial cell divides to make two diplod cells, which then divide again, without replicating the DNA, to make four haploid cells. If something goes wrong, and the process 'freezes' after the first division, you get two diploid eggs, which will develop, unfertilised, into diploid, that is, female, adults. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:19:50 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: number of beekeepers in UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 15/11/2006 20:41:55 GMT Standard Time, hugo.thone@SKYNET.BE writes: Is there anybody on the list who can give me the number of beekeepers in the UK ? cheers, Hugo (half a bee) Not accurately. There are about 10,000 members of the British BKA, which is almost exclusively English. It is reckoned that only about a third of beekeepers are members. You may get further information from the Ulster, Welsh and Scottish BKAs. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 12:24:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Natural bee size... was, Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: <53e.b6ec3d6.328e1a35@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris Slade wrote: In a message dated 15/11/2006 04:01:03 GMT Standard Time, mws1112004@YAHOO.COM writes: so far every time i've tried using strips, I've rapidly ended up with comb that was so far from straight Chris, You must have meant the other Mike. I, mws1112004, have to this point never used strips so cannot comment anecdotally about the practice. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $310,000 Mortgage for $999/mo - Calculate new house payment -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:51:55 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Natural bee size... was, Feeding honey to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/11/2006 20:43:14 GMT Standard Time, mws1112004@YAHOO.COM writes: <> That was me; strips have not been a success in the past, unless sandwiched between two straight combs. In which case they tell me very little about how the bees would build if left undisturbed. I may try again, but right now the big question I want to answer is whether mating success will improve if I really wallop the mites a few weeks before I raise queens, so they have unparasitised drones available. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 12:50:39 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: re number of beekeepers in the UK In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Bob >Under the WTO and Nafta we can not keep those hives out of almonds. > Is this in fact the case? We are doing a good job of keeping Canadian queens out of this country. What is the difference here? Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 17:36:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: alternatives to requeening In-Reply-To: <860230.79720.qm@web31602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2D81013 > Why six frames? It was the best size nuc I could build with the scrap > lumber I had available. The type of box doesn't really matter. It's more about what's inside the box. > If I had one complaint, they don't seem to warm up in the spring as > fast, and brood development seems behind my established hives, but once > the warmer spring weather arrives, they come on marvelously well. Could the problem be a lack of stored pollen. Your established hives have pollen stored last fall. The nucs, in my area, don't store much pollen, and brood rearing doesn't get underway until pollen is available. You could try feeding pollen or a substitute. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.3/530 - Release Date: 11/11/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 17:40:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: alternatives to requeening In-Reply-To: <455C7F8B.8020409@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2D81013 >> >Do you leave the nucs physically separate from each other and on their own >stand or group them to keep down heat loss? Physically separated but on the inner cover of a production colony. Do you know Bob Eagan, in Maine? Tony's buddy. Tony came over for some lessons in the process, and took it back to Bob. Bob now raises 150 or so to winter. You could see his operation, I assume. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.3/530 - Release Date: 11/11/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:31:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: re number of beekeepers in the UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bob, Bob wrote, > The first self fertile almonds are getting a patent this fall as we speak. They have been trying this for a long time, UC Davis comes to mine, So far the yields have been poor with these trees. > In ten years if I am still around I predict I will be writing of the woes > of the California beekeeper in ABJ & BC. HUGE outfits are relocating into > California now to chase almond pollination. California beekeepers are > shipping their bees out of the huge state of California in summer to find > nectar sources. Bob, I dont know where we will all end up as this plays out.I do think thier are some thoughs worth noting.Almonds are being consumed like never before and by countries with a growing middle class with a disposable income.With all the negitive talk about out-sourcing U.S. jobs, that work force is now new buyers of almonds in those cuntries. > Gold rushes have been short lived in history. Followed by ghost towns (and > maybe ghost industries) Well, only time will tell if this is anther gold bust. Most said ,we could never sell a billion pound crop of nuts. Well, it's sold out. Most here that write about almonds get their info by here-say, I think history will be the best, to state the record. P.S. all ready many semi-loads of bees look awful here in Calif, I still don't get it, these out-of-staters I thought last year would have gotten the message about running poor bees. Good luck to all who come. Keith Jarrett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 18:44:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Natural bee size... was, Feeding honey to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/11/2006 20:43:14 GMT Standard Time, mws1112004@YAHOO.COM writes: Chris, You must have meant the other Mike. I, mws1112004, have to this point never used strips so cannot comment anecdotally about the practice. Mike in LA Mike, I think I was quoting your mail that in turn had a quote from Robert Brenchley in Birmingham (not Alabama) and the system attributed it to you. Confusing. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:43:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis, The current flap on the BeeL is not much different than what you had to endure with the small cell zealots when you made your experiments. I did bring you up as the only one who has shown small cell to work with good trials and supporting data, but even you have not postulated the why, only that it works for you. That is honest. To me, you are the voice of reason in the debate. Plus, your research showed that uniform 4.9 was not the solution since the bees had a range of cell sizes. What has been happening on the BeeL (and why some of us have just about given up on it) is the same sort of fervor that was around with FGMO. Lots of anecdotal evidence that it works but little in the way of good science that shows at least some universality. We are back in my pet sandbox (and others who no longer post but lurk) of a proper experiment with controls. The variables that exist in keeping bees are plentiful. I could attribute my success to being on the Kennebec River and it is something in the water. Obviously, it is not. But on something like this list, I could post that and never have to prove it but could deride all who challenge me, especially if I had several other beekeepers on the Kennebec who also were successful.. Several have had success with small cells, but what other things are present? I have a good idea that one small cell beekeeper has AHB, or at least a mix of them and other bees. I would not follow that path. Some have excellent results with "feral" bees. But I know that AHB has made it up to Maine and that most of our "feral" population died off. So if I shift to feral bees am I only picking up the AHB mix brought up to Maine from Florida? In both cases I would be successful with small cell but that is because of the bee. Is Varroa present in the area? I have had success because most other beekeepers in my area gave up. Any bees in may area are from my apiaries, so if I select feral bees I am only getting my latest swarm. You have success in Wyoming (going on memory as far as your location), so would that translate to Maine? Are there other things you do that I do not which will cause a different outcome? Much has been made about science and Theories. Theories are just that. They are unproven science but have enough validity to move them up a notch from speculation. They are also difficult to prove since they cannot be directly examined. Theories are not written in stone. Scientific Laws are. Theories are there to be tested, mostly indirectly. Small cell is not a theory but is speculation. The problem is, on this list, it is being treated by its adherents as a Law. And there's the rub. Good science requires peer review and reproducible results. If a test is run at one lab another lab should get the same results. We really do not know if that is the case with small cell, especially on this list, since those who fail usually do not post. If they do, then I see the same response I saw with FGMO- you did not do it right. The truth was , with FGMO they did do it right and failed because of it, not because of their practices. Success with FGMO was more to do with other practices than with the oil. Those variables again. Small cell may be the best approach to combat Varroa. You have gone a long way to show that it works for you and the techniques you used to demonstrate it. For that, many of us are grateful. Especially to see you posting again. For those who do not know your work, is your website still active and would you post a link? Makes for good reading. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 23:07:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi PO and Everyone, >asking you to speak for them... I must confess, I actually just jumped in all by myself. And I probably should have taken more time in reading previous posts. But they are hard to keep track of. One of the problems with 'small cell' is that all kinds of bee management/ideas and beekeepers get lumped together. I thought your request for more info was reasonable enough. I know that asking a commercial beekeeper for colony count and production figures are like asking for a bank number and a balance. I didn't mind providing these since I only have a few hives now. >Previous posts indicate that the ability to handle varroa ( and the virus) is due to lower reproduction rate among bees managed by the SC advocates. I haven't followed what's happening in the small cell camp for quite awhile. But that hasn't been my experience when using small cell comb. It has been quite the opposite. Clusters are larger. They build up faster in the spring. And overwinter better. Could it be those beekeepers were referring to lower varroa mite reproduction rates? >If you were getting this kind of crops, why were you quitting as commercial beek... As a commercial beek, I got crops that were about 20lbs heavier than average. My hives were run in a conventional manner. I left the commercial bees in 2000. I'd been involved with bees all my life and felt it was time for a change. My wife is from a tropical country and she wanted to relocate to a better climate after 25 years in Wyoming. I was in my 50's and if I didn't do it then, I probably never would. There's been some delay, but we will be relocating next year. In the interim, I've maintained two test yards to play with. Now, I have only 10 hives which will probably be given away next year. I'll startup again in a new location. And I'll probably get a few hundred hives going. It's hard to get the commercial beek out of a guy like me. ;>) I don't have any interest in making more honey than could be value added to. When the market price for wholesale honey is 60 to 100 cents/lb, it's just not worth it. >I'm really curious how you manage that.... I will share them in a series of posts. But for a synopsis check out: http://bwrangler.madpage.com/bee/sxpe.htm Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 23:22:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: re number of beekeepers in the U.K. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Tom, Why are you so dead set against Canadian queens? Allen Dick advised his fellow Canadians to open the border. excellent advice in my opinion as the reasons for closing the border are gone. Opening the border would allow Canadian beekeepers like Jean-Marc access to almonds thus easing the almond bee shortage problems in years to come. Tom asks what the difference is between the Canadian border opening and the Mexican border. Simply put money opened the U.S. to Australian packages & queens to fill a need. The almond industry is rich compared to the beekeeping industry. Tossing money at a problem is the American way. As I said before U.S. beekeepers are not interested in bees entering from Mexico but if prices and shortages occur over the next few years in almonds the below scenario will happen first. later the mexicans will drive into almonds and do like out of staters on "guest workers papers" Right now Mexican truckers can bring frieght ( Yellow/Roadway) across the border so many miles . As a retired member of the Teamsters union we fought this tooth and nail and lost. Once the courts run the course the Mexican trucks we be free to travel the 48 states. Live bees will become freight( just like the post office) A 10 lane super highway will be started next year between Mexico and Canada. Five lanes both ways. One proposel: Once on the U.S. side the the hives can be unloaded and inspected. then loaded on U.S. beekeepers trucks and moved into almonds. I believe the USDA will buy into the arrangement if smart lawyers and money is involved but I HOPE NOT! What I am talking about is not a one time deal. Once set in place Mexican beekeepers will have access to almonds from now on. Opening the Canadian border will ease the situation in 2009-2010. Keith, Many North Dakota beekeepers are in serious trouble. Money problems and hives in poor shape. Yesterday Senator Conrad (N.D.) went in front of the senate ( I watched his presentation ) asking for 4.5 billion in disaster farm aid. Beekeepers have been left out from what beekeepers are saying but perhaps (like Keith Jarret) they will find a way to get some help to create cash flow. Huge operations are leaving the dakota's to become Keith & Randy's neighbors. As far as "hear say" Keith I hope you are not talking about me as my phone bill to california is huge. Five calls yesterday! Two to almond growers. Three to the largest supplier of almond trees to almond growers. One almond grower said over $25 dollars a hive for bees in almonds is a rip off. I hate to report they are not happy with beekeepers and what they call price gouging. One said they look at beekeepers like they do the gas companies. Please don't kill the messenger! My job is to report what the different people involved tell me in a story. I spoke with an almond grower last saturday in person in Kansas City. He was here on a visit. he got so upset I thought he was going to have a heart attack. He said the price for hive rental should be based solely on the price paid for almonds. Almond pollination fees should not be paid until fall after the nuts are sold. I tried to explain the beekeeper position but he got mad and walked off. His brother apologized for him and said he gets pissed every time almonds and bees are brought up. The above is an example of interviews I have LEFT OUT of am almond articles. My bees and the bees of Bell Hill Honey were in poor shape due to the drought in August. I fed mine three pollen patties each and light syrup all fall. They still had smaller clusters than I like so we headed north and depopulated 350 hives and brought the bees back and shook into the weak hives. Now most lood good. None of the beekeepers in my article last spring are going to almonds except for Jerry Brown. We have heard his bees were moved into the Dakota's from texas Tallow locations to make honey. We heard later many crashed and the rest were in poor shape. I got the information from a reliable source. Marion Ellis ( Nebraska) told us at the fall Midwestern Beekeepers meeting that around 3,000 hives died from lack of water and temps way over 100 F.in North Dakota. First time he had ever heard of the problem. I suspect other problems were involved also but only speculation on my part. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 17:10:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question In-Reply-To: <455C8C06.8060603@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman writes: While Thelytoky is exhibited strongly in Capensis, it does occur in all races of Apis Mellifera, but in all except Capensis, it is very rare. Reply: Maybe in today's modern world and concerning artificially enlarged bees that are not allowed to outmate, but instead are regularly requeened with stock from breeders/queens inseminated it might be rare, for beekeepers are taught to destroy laying workers rather then work with them for the good they do. Given the chance and following a program with selection and outbreeding combined, the trait is readily found in most all races and out here with italian and caucasian type strains it has been known to be well established when looked for. But then since documentation locally back in the 1980s, others would rather say otherwise for own needs today, rather then learn from what could be had when the trait is used properly and the bees need. Regards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420k for $1,399/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 17:21:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092109A65121@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron: Since I am in a family that kept strong field management to the natural side of beekeeping without the usage of various treatments, and when asked to show, for learning to others, we did,(not that it hasn't been thrown back upon us by those not understanding this trait), to have it documented, here it is again to read, and Aaron if others were also doing, it is not a rare to find trait..... Thelytoky in a Strain of U.S. Honeybees (Apis mellifera L) May 1991 - Bee Science http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/bsmay1991.htm For those reading. Please note this was published in 1991 but much of the stuff we were showing was still in the 1980s and actually done from about 1988 -1990 in dialogue with those concerned. Also so-called AHB didn't reach our area until about 1996 by state declaration with finding next to our SC yards too by the way for FWIW. Regards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510k for $1,698/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 17:24:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question In-Reply-To: <000901c709a6$c7b382c0$aa7d89d5@predrag> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Predrag writes: Franjo Tomazin. He said it was about 2%. Reply: Yes, and it can be gotten much higher in selection very readily, but is confined more to bees on a natural system then an artificial one, and I would say about 1 egg in 20,000 is probably closer to the truth FWIW. Regards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Online degrees - find the right program to advance your career. Www.nextag.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 23:34:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi PO, >That shows a lack of knowledge of European beekeeping.... You're right. And that's why I'm back. So, I can learn more. :>) The principles you've exposed for organic beekeeping are reasonable. They are focused on the results that our management has on the bee, hive products and the environment. And the proof appears to be in the product. I think a strict adherence to a formula or specific method doesn't allow for variety of beekeeping conditions. And it sure wouldn't take into consideration the environmental contamination found in different locations. >If you go back a little in the posts... Oh no! You mean I have to wade through all that :>))) I'll go forward from here and will appreciate learning more about your beekeeping. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 23:00:29 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: re number of beekeepers in the U.K. In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Bob >Why are you so dead set against Canadian queens? > On the contrary I have strong objections to the political hurdles placed on importing Canadian queens. I was never able to winter effectively here in Alaska until I began importing queens from Canada. Now my supply is cut off. There is not enough money to force an open border to queens from Canada to Alaska. Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:45:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question In-Reply-To: <558016.19205.qm@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee Let's try and get this issue back on the rails... > Maybe in today's modern world and concerning artificially > enlarged bees You may contend that bees are artificially enlarged today, but that is not a widely accepted view. But even if it were true, how would it impact on thelytoky ? > bees that are not allowed to outmate, Out mating is only one of several mating strategies that bees themselves use, some breeders follow what the bees themselves do (whether that be inbreeding or out breeding) in order to propagate the characters of the race concerned as opposed to generating a bee that is so hybridised that it is unrecognisable as any particular race. Getting back to thelytoky, you say... > the trait is readily found in most all races While it is found, it is not readily found... In the last decade there are only two colonies, that I know of, where the trait was discovered, one of these was in UK and the other in Australia. I should further qualify this by saying that in both countries the bees were being actively sought by researchers. Such numbers do not support your use of 'readily found'. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:54:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Natural building ... was, Natural bee size In-Reply-To: <27a.11cc7c5c.328e377b@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Robert, hi all ! >That was me; strips have not been a success in the past, unless sandwiched >between two straight combs. In which case they tell me very little >about how the bees would build if left undisturbed. 3 suggested solutions to increase the chances of correct buildings: 1/ to use narrow and high frames as in the experimental sheets hive of Swiss François Huber (1750-1831) shows it: described in the book of Dr. Maurice Mathis (1951)"Vie et Moeurs des Abeilles = Life and Manners of the Bees" (frames width: 235 mm, height: 320 mm, thickness: 35-37 mm). I can send the drawing to those asking it of me by private mail. 2/ to also place small strips on the side uprights of the frames. To force the orientation of the chains of the wax-producing bees. 3/ to place largely perforated plastic films between the frames to be used as guides for bees at the beginning of construction. (as for building of honeycombs) hoping this helps :)) best regards Jean-Marie Van Dyck (Belgium) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:18:04 -0000 Reply-To: brian gant Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: brian gant Subject: number of beekeepers in the UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DEFRA have a paper dated February 2006 which estimates 250,000 colonies of honey bees and around 37,000 beekeepers Their figures are probably fairly reliable Brian Gant -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 04:46:07 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Thelytoky In-Reply-To: <558016.19205.qm@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote:Reply: Given the chance and following a program with selection and outbreeding combined, the trait is readily found in most all races and out here with italian and caucasian type strains it has been known to be well established when looked for. What personal experience have you had with this. How many times in how many years have you seen this? Mike in LA --------------------------------- Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510,000 Mortgage for $1,698/mo - Calculate new house payment -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 08:25:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: alternatives to requeening In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20061116173737.03e918a8@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Palmer wrote: > > Physically separated but on the inner cover of a production colony. Do > you know Bob Eagan, in Maine? Tony's buddy. Tony came over for some > lessons in the process, and took it back to Bob. Bob now raises 150 or > so to winter. > Mike, My post was to clarify what I thought you were doing and you did so. Thanks. Yes, I know them both and had the good fortune to go with them when Bob worked for Tony inspecting the blueberry pollinators. Learned a lot and had a great time. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 08:23:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > the trait is readily found in most all races > >While it is found, it is not readily found... In the last decade there >are only two colonies, that I know of, where the trait was discovered, >one of these was in UK and the other in Australia. Hi Dave, I think you are referring to the cases of "Anarchy" that were found, where many laying workers were thriving above a queen excluder. This is indeed rare, but they DO NOT produce queens. I don't know of ONE single credible account of a honey bee worker ever producing an egg that turned into a queen (excluding Cape Bees, of course). QUOTES: [honey bee] workers are morphologically very distinct from queens and cannot mate, but retain functional ovaries and can lay unfertilised male eggs. In the Cape honey-bee, A. m. capensis from South Africa, workers reproduce by thelytoky, laying eggs that develop into female workers (Anderson 1963). This *highly unusual* form of reproduction results in diploid female eggs following fusion of the nuclei formed by normal meiosis. Worker reproduction, while common in queenless colonies, is rare in queenright colonies, despite the fact that workers are more related to their own sons than to those of the queen. Evidence that worker sterility is enforced by â€worker policing’ is reviewed and worker policing is shown to be widespread in Apis. We then discuss a rare behavioural syndrome, â€anarchy’, in which substantial worker production of males occurs in queenright colonies. The level of worker reproduction in these anarchic colonies is far greater than in a normal queenright honey-bee colony. Anarchy is a counterstrategy against worker policing and an example of a â€cheating’ strategy invading a cooperative system. Natural anarchic colonies are rare: we have seen very few, despite inspecting thousands of colonies. Oldroyd first saw anarchic colonies in 1987 in an apiary in New Zealand. Several colonies each had more than 500 drone larvae above the queen excluder. from: Andrew B. Barron · Benjamin P. Oldroyd Francis L.W. Ratnieks Worker reproduction in honey-bees (Apis) and the anarchic syndrome: a review pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:00:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > > If one gets Goldenrod early in season, before Aster starts blooming, the > honey is very light and does not granulate faster than most. But once > Aster > is mixed in, the honey will granulate within a week of being > extracted! At > least one company takes maximum advantage of this, see > www.reallyrawhoney.com. My fall honey is a mix of the two with some honeydew occasionally thrown in (and some leftover loosestrife). It is a delicious dark honey but not the best for bees to overwinter on. With the mix, I find it granulates more slowly with added honeydew. More honeydew, slower granulation. I can see why they would ask for a premium price since it is an excellent honey. All the honey I keep for my family is the fall honey. I sell the summer honey to friends. We have large stands of aster in our backyard fields. Pretty flower and the bees love it. I have posted this before, but for those who are new- I would assist a beekeeper friend at a fair and offer tastes of his different honeys. I would tell each person that I could tell which honey they would like the best. Almost always the young preferred summer or light honey and the older preferred dark honey. The ones in the middle would go light if they did not use honey while those that used it would like the dark. It is all in the flavor. The kids like sweet with little flavor while the older folk wanted the flavor. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:17:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: re number of beekeepers in the U.K. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Tom & All, Its not so much the money but the way its spent. $300 an hour is not unusual for top lawyers. Adds up fast but these guys can convine those in a position to change things the beekeeper/almond grower need for the change. The problem with the opening of the Canada border comes from the organized oposition. If Canada beekeepers said today we want the border open the border would open fast. So far Canadian beekeepers wanting the border open have not hired the lawyers to present a case. My brother is a lawyer. He was told in law school : " the person which has his self for a lawyer has a fool for a lawyer" Harsh words but both the ABF & AHPA hire lawyers to make change. A close friend queen breeder has been upset with not being able to ship queens into Canada. He told me " I filled out all the required paperwork" Filling out the paperwork does not get the interest as a visit from a sharp legal mind with a beekeeper by his side. Reason is the key to getting change. We needed those Australian package bees & queens. California and Hawaii queen & package producers could not or in the case of Gus Rouse would not supply. Gus was contacted and asked if he would gear up earlier in the season and also produce packages. Gus said at the time he did not want to put on another crew then and also was not interested in producing package bees. Reason ( and perhaps a sharp legal mind) opened the U.S. to Australian bees. The people with the power to change the rules are not beekeepers. All I have met are reasonable people and respond to reason. I left these posts hid under the UK original question as we are talking very sensitive issues. You do not have to agree with the points I have made but at least think about the points. If an all out effort were made to reopen the Canadian border with sharp local lawyers and the court system I believe the border would open. I do not see the need now but maybe in a few years to ease the pressure to open the south border by almond growers/brokers and bee haulers. bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 15:41:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter > I think you are referring to the cases of "Anarchy" that were found, You are correct! I was confusing the two systems, which is remiss of me, particularly as I have attended many such lectures. The guys you quoted (Andrew Barron, Francis Ratnieks & Ben Oldroyd) were also involved in the thelytoky discussion that took place at the 3rd European Congress on Social Insects held in St. Petersburg, Russia 22-27 August 2005. I have looked quite thoroughly at the lecture program and cannot find the session involved, Anarchy and worker policing were also discussed. The following text came from that conference, but I cannot be certain that it was not in the context of Capensis... ***** Queen replacement based on the eggs of laying workers may arise following queen loss during mating or in supersedure but is relatively rare. Nonetheless, this thelytokous parthenogenetic trait remains entrenched in the gene pool and, given the appropriate colony conditions (supersedure or queen loss), is readily expressed in one species. In genetic models of this trait the thelytoky gene persists even though only a small percentage of colonies produce queens in this way. The gene frequency for thelytoky may be remarkably high and exist in a stable, polymorphic equilibrium supported by unusually high multiple matings. Alternatively, it could be argued that such allelic differences could be rapidly selected against unless their effects on the overall phenotype were small. ***** > I don't know of ONE single credible account of a honey bee worker ever > producing an egg that turned into a queen (excluding Cape Bees, of > course). The phenomena has been recorded in Europe, but I can't find the refs, we are talking single or double figure numbers, nothing dramatic, which is the point that I was originally making... It is so rare that it has little influence or impact. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 10:53:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: laying workers vs. intermorphs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dr. Hoffman wrote years ago that African bees might have laying workers that produce queens. That idea appears to have been dropped, however. More recent information may shed light on why: > AHB colonies often construct a single queen cell on a honey frame, particularly in populous colonies. Beekeepers might also see workers with shiny black abdomens that look like small virgin queens. > Dr. Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman of the USDA Carl Hayden Bee Research Center in Tucson has recently demonstrated that these shiny black bees are "intermorphs" that have characteristics of both workers and queens. > How and why intermorphs are reared in colonies remains unclear, but they are signs that AHB colonies are in the area. source: The African Honey Bee: A Case Study Of A Biological Invasion by Stan Schneider, Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman, Deborah Smith, David Tarpy pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 12:37:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: laying workers vs. intermorphs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dr. Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman remarks also appeared in one of the major U.S. beekeeping magazines a year or two back. When I first began keeping bees up here in Anchorage about 10 years ago I never saw those type bees. A short time before DeGrandi-Hoffman’s article appeared in either ‘American Bee Journal’ or ‘Bee Culture’ I saw a few in a hive begun that season from California bee packages. Because they were mostly hairless I thought, before reading her article, that possibly they were robber bees. But still, besides being mostly hairless, they did look different than other workers. I’ve subsequently seen more from time time. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 12:43:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: laying workers vs. intermorphs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Further reading on laying workers produced an article on the differences between the Cape Bee and Apis mellifera scutellata. Evidently, the differences between these two are not as clear as was expected. Both the Cape Bee and scutellata develop laying workers that can produce queens. QUOTE: > The terms "A. m. capensis" and "A. m. scutellata" are only meaningful if the precise geographical origins of the bees are specified. from "Apis mellifera capensis: an essay on the subspecific classification of honeybees" by Randall HEPBURN, Sarah E. RADLOFF (2002) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 13:31:06 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While about to reply on the List to Erin's original question it occured to me that I don't fully understand the mechanism of egg laying in either worker or queen. I was a bit puzzled by the sting being a modified ovipositor and wondered whether it could still be used for the purpose and, if not what is the alternative. So I turned to my bookshelves for guidance, first to Winston and and then to Dade. They pointed me in what I thought was the right direction but not without ambiguity, although it was good to be reminded of the quality of the drawings in Dade's book (Anatomy and dissection of the honeybee). I then looked at Lesley Goodman's 'Form and Function in the Honeybee' (the book with the'wow' factor that should be on every beekeeper's Christmas present list) but the ambiguity was unresolved. Lastly I found my copy of Celia Davis' 'The Honey Bee inside out' and there I think I have found my answer. The Bursa copulatrix lies between the vagina and the outside world. Davis writes 'It is a wide cavity opening to the outside of the body, with the sting loosely anchored to its top surface.' The looseness of the sting may answer my questions: does the sting get in the way when the queen lays her eggs in the bottom of cells? Could the sting be a reason why laying workers often don't seem to deposit eggs as neatly as Mother does? Has anybody observed egg laying in a cell against the glass of an observation hive enabling what is normally hidden to be seen? What have thy noticed about it? Are there pictures on line? I apologise that this mail is seeking informed discussion of bee biology rather than politics so to ensure that it gets past the moderators maybe I should point out that I do play with small cell and naturally drawn comb and that my only tentative conclusion so far is that you get more bees to a frame if the cells are smaller. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 07:40:05 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Australian access to the USA (was re number of beekeepers in the U.K.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reason ( and perhaps a sharp legal mind) opened the U.S. to Australian > bees. There was no legal mind in Australia gaining access to the USA. How would I know? Because I was in the thick of pushing our Governemnet who in turn made representation to the USDA for access. It was slow. It took about 5 or 6 years from when I first sat down with our Government Department to fill out all the forms. Yes we got the run around from the USDA and all sorts of promises which came and went. At no stage did we hire any lawyers to put our case. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Come to Apimondia next year and see our bees first hand. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 17:04:23 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Thelytoky MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/11/2006 13:53:15 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: <> I can't place the source, but I've read somewhere that thelytoky was first observed in a strain of 'Punic bees' from Tunisia, brought to England by John Hewitt in, as far as I can make out, the 1880's. I believe the phenomenon was spotted in 1892, and the queen ended up in the British Museum of Natural History. If anyone lives in London, I would imagine she's still there. It would be interesting to know more. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 18:51:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Australian access to the USA ( was re number of beekeepers in the U.K.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Trevor, You are so right! You did not spend a dime! how about chipping in now! half the money spent sound fair? The U.S. beekeeper which moved the process forward has always wanted to remain anonymous. When the process finnaly started to move I began asking and was pointed in the direction of the beekeeper pushing things and the person which paid the lawyer. He admited his involvement and asked for me to not reveal his name. He may feel different now but back then he did not want to be black balled by U.S. beekeepers. Acceptance of your packages & queens has been slow. Heated debates raged on BEE_L. I said simply "packages have went into Canada for decades without problems. Why would they not in the U.S.A." I backed the Austrlain import and helped arrange the first import. I am thrilled with the Australian bees in my yards! Do you remember when i called asking you about package bees? Every Australian queen and package producer I called were caught off guard by the change in policy. Only one was able to supply us packages. bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 12:59:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Feral colonies in Vermont, upstate NY, Canada. [Feeding honey to bees] In-Reply-To: <20061113.082956.2383.1239917@webmail55.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This honey sounds like aster to me. The "ferals" probably came from your colonies' swarms or someone elses. I have a "bee tree" in the front yard of my house. It has been occupied for the last 15 years or more. Sometimes the colony survives the winter and sometimes not. It will usually get reoccupied by a swarm from one of my colonies or from the colony in the eve on the back side of our house. I still maintain that a feral colony is just an unmanaged colony. The words are interchangable, with a few minor differences. Such as the hive being occupied by the colony. The bees are nearly the same. Mark "waldig@netzero.com" wrote: . The honey started crystalizing with very fine grain in the buckets within 3 days after extraction! I have not seen this before. The only [major] difference I see between local ferals and my colonies is the amount of stored spring/summer honey. --------------------------------- Sponsored Link $420,000 Mortgage for $1,399/month - Think You Pay Too Much For Your Mortgage? Find Out! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 11:34:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: re number of beekeepers in the U.K. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > If an all out effort were made to reopen the Canadian border with sharp > local lawyers and the court system I believe the border would open. I do > not see the need now but maybe in a few years to ease the pressure to open > the south border by almond growers/brokers and bee haulers. > It may be a two coast problem, since I do not think the Canadian blueberry pollinators want the border open, since it works both ways. The Florida pollinators would just start further north. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 15:15:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question In-Reply-To: <455DCA22.4060106@lineone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 17, 2006, at 6:41 AM, Dave Cushman wrote: > Hi Peter > > > I think you are referring to the cases of "Anarchy" that were found, > > You are correct! I was confusing the two systems, which is remiss of > me, particularly as I have attended many such lectures. > > The guys you quoted (Andrew Barron, Francis Ratnieks & Ben Oldroyd) > were also involved in the thelytoky discussion that took place at the > 3rd European Congress on Social Insects held in St. Petersburg, Russia > 22-27 August 2005. I have looked quite thoroughly at the lecture > program and cannot find the session involved, Anarchy and worker > policing were also discussed. > > The following text came from that conference, but I cannot be certain > that it was not in the context of Capensis... Some clarification. I was at the St. Petersburg Congress (as Keynote Speaker on odor use by honey bees during recruitment to food sources) but have no recollection of discussions about thelytoky. Barron and co-workers covered neurochemistry in honey bees that "dance"; Oldroyd was co-author of a presentation on temperature (of bee pupae), learning, and memory, Ratnieks was co-author of a presentation on ant pheromones; Oldroyd was co-author of another presentation on competition among queenless workers of Apis florea. For more information on that last item, one can type piyamas nanork apis florea into google and proceed from there. Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 00:02:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bill and Everyone, >Small cell may be the best approach to combat Varroa. You have gone a long way to show that it works for you and the techniques you used to demonstrate it... I shared the experience so others could try it for themselves and hopefully benefit as I have. I would suggest that anyone who does, do it on a small scale first. Don't follow some rigid set of procedures or methods, but look for the principles behind them and adapt them to your own situation, bees and equipment. Then, the most important part, share the observations and results with others, especially if/where they differ. It's when encountering those differences that I've learned the most. Bill, I'm looking forward to hearing more from your comb size experience. As far as I know, you are the only one who has started a small cell test from those posts. Regards Dennis http://bwrangler.madpage.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 12:56:56 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/11/2006 04:45:05 GMT Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: Thelytoky in a Strain of U.S. Honeybees (Apis mellifera L) May 1991 - Bee Science So Ligustica - Italians then. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 01:12:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Thelytoky MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not Dee but the question tickles my fancy: >>>>>>>>>>>What personal experience have you had with this. How many times in how many years have you seen this?<<<<<<< I suspect that this is something that won't be readily seen. For one thing there are estimates that 6% of the eggs laid in any colony are laid by workers. These are cleaned up by the "egg-police." I think I'm quoting some NZ researchers. (too lazy to look it up). Who's to say how many of those eggs would have resulted in female adults. For that matter, how would one ever know that it had occurred in any apiary that was not inspected often for queen loss? Incidentally, a better word would be parthenogenesis, partly because one can actually spell it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis Thelytoky seems to be the way that it happens. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelytoky I am reminded of something I learned in biology class a long time ago. It was said that if you touch a frogs egg with a platinum needle-it would operate as a fertilized egg and grow a frog. (Remember frogs eggs, and collecting them?) It appears to me that this trait is a hangover from an earlier evolutionary stage that is extant to a small degree. This seems likely since sister species to the honey bee have this trait and we assume that all these bees spring from a common ancestor. It has the obvious advantage of allowing a colony to survive the loss of a queen at least in some cases. One could wonder why this trait disappeared (almost). Could it have something to do with the need for cooperative behaviors and the need to genetically pass those behaviors on? Would those genes be better protected in the absence of parthenogenesis? I'm so glad there are better minds than mine on this site. (Unless they've been discouraged by the nonsense) Big time lurker, Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 18:38:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris: Depending upon who you talk to. But yes, I would say about 50% Italian and other part about 50% caucasian similar as per analysis done by Koeniger, USDA, Univ Ariz, and others over the years. The flats are more Italian below 3,000 feet and then going above and more so over 3500 feet it really goes progressively darker. But then too in looking those saying Italian could also be caucasian as caucasian yellow do look extremely similar to Italian. Further, have never seen any difference with our bees and their behaviour in all the years FWIW... Regards, Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link $420k for $1,399/mo. Think You Pay Too Much For Your Mortgage? Find Out! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 18:53:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Thelytoky In-Reply-To: <701633.70594.qm@web53413.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike wrote: What personal experience have you had with this. How many times in how many years have you seen this? Reply: Mike it has always been a yearly experience and even Ed's grandpa saw it regularly, and this with him went back to 1927 out here in Arizona easily (and not talking about from where he moved from also same scenario). But for personal experience, after getting the go ahead with Ed and his grandpa back in the 1980s, we showed (under contract with Western Region USDA) Tucson Bee Lab how to see thelytoky,and what we did, laughing about the shiny black bees and other, but never thought it would cut back to hurt industry, for the trait really is a good one, and used properly really has advantages for all beekeepers on a natural system of field management. Regards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Don't quit your job - take classes online www.Classesusa.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 04:33:33 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/11/2006 02:54:38 GMT Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: The flats are more Italian below 3,000 feet and then going above and more so over 3500 feet it really goes progressively darker. Thanks Dee. Is there much movement of hives from high ground to lower or vice versa? Is colour the only criterion by which you judge whether the bees are 'Italian' or not? The darker colour could be selected for rapidly within a race if it was advantageous eg living higher. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 04:43:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/11/2006 00:33:32 GMT Standard Time, demerl51@GMAIL.COM writes: Then, the most important part, share the observations and results with others, especially if/where they differ. It's when encountering those differences that I've learned the most. And use controls for fair comparison!!!! Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 06:44:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Australian access to the USA ( was re: number of beekeepers in the U.K.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Trevor & All, Kidding about the money! The same beekeeper lost a lawsuit years ago involving six figures. With legal matters there are no sure bets. The key again is reason & need when dealing with the "powers that be". It seems this year the need for Australian packages is greater than ever. Five pallets have already entered from Brown's Bees and 22 are on order. I spoke with Terry Brown in Australia by phone last night. He spoke of the drought in his area of Australia aand moving bees to the coast of New South Wales. bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 09:16:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Thelytoky MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dick Marron wrote: >>>>>>>What personal experience have you had with this. How many times in how many years have you seen this?<<<<<<< All the papers that I have seen refer to work done by Otto Mackensen back in 1943. So naturally I was curious as to what Mackensen actually wrote way back in the middle of WWII. Mackensen decided to get to the bottom of the question as to whether unfertilized bee eggs are ever males. At that time it was widely known that the African Cape Bee could re-queen its colonies using the eggs from laying workers, and there were a few isolated anecdotes of this trait popping up in other African types. But Mackensen wanted to see if could happen with regular "off the shelf" bees in the USA. He took 3 types of bees: black Caucasian, banded Italian, and golden Italian, and raised queens from them. He then trapped them in hives so they could not mate. After 30 0r 40 days, these queens began to lay unfertilized eggs. Out of fifty that produced brood, 21 produced "some worker pupae". He writes: "The exact percentage of eggs developing into females could not be determined, since many ... are cleaned out of the comb before they mature. It was estimated, however, that not more than 1 percent of any of the eggs developed into workers." He takes it one step further and raises 710 queen cells from the eggs of one particular "virgin queen of the golden strain" . Out of these, six turned into actual queens, or .85 percent. His attempts to get these babies mated failed, however, so the actual number of real laying queens produced by this method is, finally, zero. What happened to them? Well, Otto isn't very scientific about that: "Three of them were lost before we could make any use of them." One was artificially inseminated and one was allowed to open mate but "both were lost before they started laying". The other one was confined to a nuc and not allowed to mate. In conclusion, he writes, "more observations under the proper experimental conditions are necessary to show how universal this characteristic is among the bee races and varieties of the world." In other words, I don't think he would approve of his work being used to "prove" that this trait is "widespread". * * * Fast forward sixty years: H R Hepburn, working in South Africa, is studying this trait in the native bees. In the region where he works, there are three types identified by Ruttner: A. m. capensis, A. m. scutellata, and an unnamed mountain bee. Evidently, Ruttner was never satisfied with the classification of Cape bees and scuts as separate types. "A geographic race may be defined as a group of bees similar in morphology, behaviour and physiology, and characterized by a specific geographical distribution". The distinction was originally made in 1933 by Alpatov, comparing bees 1000 km apart (but not in the "transition zones"). Ruttner was unable to separate A. m. capensis from A. m. scutellata on morphometric criteria alone. Hence, the attempt to classify them by behavior and geography. The Cape bee had this weird trait called parthenogenesis. But it now seems that parthenogenesis is just as common among the "scuts"! It turns out that there was never any real agreement on the distinction between the Cape Bees and the "scuts". Studies by Maa, 1953 and DuPraw, 1964, concluded that all the bees of central and southern Africa are a single subspecies of A. mellifera with a lot of variation in color! Hepburn concludes that the distinction between the various bees of Africa, and especially between these two types, is artificial, based on appearance and geography more than anything else. The whole notion of human races has been discarded by biologists and it appears to be suspect here as well. * * * Based on this information, it would hardly be surprising to find parthenogenesis among the so-called Africanized Bees of the Americas, since they are genetically most similar to the bees generally known as Apis mellifera scutellata. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 10:12:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Thelytoky In-Reply-To: <700778.68639.qm@web51611.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dee Lusby wrote: > laughing about the shiny black bees Why would you be laughing? Dr. Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman of the USDA Carl Hayden Bee Research Center in Tucson has recently demonstrated that these shiny black bees are "intermorphs" that have characteristics of both workers and queens. How and why intermorphs are reared in colonies remains unclear, but they are signs that AHB colonies are in the area. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 10:19:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Thelytoky Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Correction > Mackensen decided to get to the bottom of the question as to whether unfertilized bee eggs are ever FEMALES. Sorry, coffee hadn't kicked in yet pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 10:41:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: The list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit D. Murrell wrote: ...I would suggest that anyone who does, do it on a small >scale first. Don't follow some rigid set of procedures or methods, but look >for the principles behind them and adapt them to your own situation, bees >and equipment... Hi Dennis, Getting back on track here. I agree that small cell should be started on a small scale first, as you would try any new beekeeping technique first on a few test colonies. To refrence a famous beekeeper, In the case of the honeybee we confronted not with isolated individuals but with a society, or to put it more scientifically, with a superorganism, an extraordinarily well regulated and well ordered system and a structure whose individual parts operate in perfect harmony. So if I may also add that it is essential that any procedures or methods adopted in regressing bees to small cell regress the colony in it’s entirety as a single organism, and not partially regress by adding a frame here and there. Enjoy your posts Dennis! Keep up the good work informing others about small cell! Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 11:21:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Stealth Bees! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Stealth Bees! Why are African bees so successful at invading and taking over in the new areas they have encountered as they have moved from Brazil, through Central America, and finally to the US? There is no doubt that there are many mechanisms responsible for this, but one of the most interesting is their propensity to "take over" colonies of less aggressive European bees. Research shows how they may do this using small "stealth bees" that have characteristics of both queens and workers. This was already seen in Africa among Cape Bees, and we now know that other African types, such as scutellata, have this trait. Apparently, these bees sneak into colonies and attempt to kill the resident queen. Being smaller than regular queens no doubt gives them many advantages. They are faster, and are more easily overlooked by the guards. Yet they have queen-like qualities also, which many enable them to suppress queen production by the victim colony. References: While most female honey bees are exclusively workers or queens, we found bees with characteristics of both workers and queens in African honey bee, Apis mellifera scutellata colonies, African usurpation swarms and in colonies of European honey bees, Apis mellifera, in the southwestern United States. We call these females intermorphs. Intermorphs resemble workers in body size and the shape of their head and mandibles. However, intermorphs are queen-like in the shape of their thorax and abdomen, and in the distribution of hairs on their body. The most interesting feature about intermorphs is that the volatile compounds (i.e., odors) they emit are similar to those of a queen. We speculate on how intermorphs might influence worker-queen interactions and possibly influence the invasion of European honey bee colonies by African bees. Because IMs emit many of the same volatiles as a queen, it is possible that the presence of IMs in a colony might confuse chemical signals emanating from the queen that advertise her presence. A possible case in point is that we regularly saw IMs in usurpation swarms of African bees. The volatiles from IMs might be used for aggregation by workers. IMs also might play a role in affecting the chances of a swarm queen entering and establishing herself in an invaded colony. Thus, IMs might contribute to the success African bees have had in invading European habitats. -- GLORIA DEGRANDI-HOFFMAN, et al * * * Worker bees of the Cape honeybee, Apis mellifera capensis, show the anarchistic trait but to an extreme degree. They can develop into so called "pseudoqueens", which release a pheromonal bouquet very similar to that of queens. Lethal fights between these parasitic workers and the queen (similar to queen–queen fights) occur, resulting in the death of either queen or worker. Although it is usually the queen that attacks the parasitic workers and kills many of them, in a few cases the workers succeeded in killing the queen. If this also occurs in a parasitized colony where the queen encounters many parasitic workers, she may eventually be killed in one of the repeated fights she engages in. -- Robin F. A. Moritz, et al -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 07:06:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question In-Reply-To: <373.eabe562.32902d6d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris writes: Is colour the only criterion by which you judge whether the bees are 'Italian' or not? The darker colour could be selected for rapidly within a race if it was advantageous eg living higher. Reply: Actuallly it is not the only criterion used. I have used since the beginning of what we have done, a set of traits/characteristics to follow pulled up from old archives, which includes looking at wing veins, that we compiled, and then how they break out low to high altitudes/latitudes, besides time of year FWIW. But it is strictly keyed to working within a natural field management system. Regards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510k for $1,698/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 15:46:30 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Thelytoky In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, If you reread the post you will see whe was laughing about the shiny black bees because of an "isn't that funny looking" reason. We didn't know as much about intermorphs then. Further it should be recognize that Dee is talking about "in the 1980s", well before african bees approached the US border. They had just reached mexico in the 1980s. So although it seems that intermorphs are now used to detect an AHB presense in the area, the intermorph bees it seems were here long before AHB were. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 16:57:09 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee, What do the wing veins tell you about your bees? Within what range are the cubital index and discoidal shift? Are they different at different altitudes? Do you know what the CI and DS would be with AHB, which your bees are often accused of being? Chris In a message dated 18/11/2006 21:15:52 GMT Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: a set of traits/characteristics to follow pulled up from old archives, which includes looking at wing veins, that we compiled, -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 17:00:24 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/11/2006 21:15:52 GMT Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: a set of traits/characteristics to follow pulled up from old archives, which includes looking at wing veins, that we compiled, Dee, Another question: do the wing veins (reflecting the shape of the wing) change as a strain is down-sized? Put another way: is the shrinkage proportional throughout the bee? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 08:40:32 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Australian access to the USA ( was re number of beekeepers in the U.K.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The U.S. beekeeper which moved the process forward has always wanted to > remain anonymous. I know the process was slow but how did this US beekeeper speed up the process? We were given deadlines but when that deadine came we were told it had to be referred to another Committee or another reference group. So what you are telling us means that the USDA was actually telling us "porkies". > Do you remember when i called asking you about package bees? Every > Australian queen and package producer I called were caught off guard by > the > change in policy. Only one was able to supply us packages. Yes I remember and they were "off guard" because there had been so many promises made and then broken that they thought another season would come and go before the approval was given. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 18:03:09 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Thelytoky Comments: To: Peter Borst In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, I also have the same documentation that dee mentions, cell size is mentioned frequently the older texts and and the first production foundation made was 5 cells to the inch, which = 5.08mm center to center exactly. When Ed and Dee first started cell reduction, their first foundation I believe was 5.0mm, and when that didn't work as well as they thought, and they learned more about the thermology of bees and bee sizes through the latitudes they stepped it down to 4.9mm. It makes sense since as you travel north bees of the same race do naturally become a little larger, and langstroth, dadant and miller and root and all those who were the fronteersman of modern beekeeping, were generally in the north, specifically Ohio, Illinois, and Pennsylvania if I recall correctly. Down in florida my bees which were purchased from an Ohio supplier (I suspect the queens came from california), settled into a cell size which was between 4.6 and 4.8mm. Here in Iowa, with the same race of bees, but a different supplier as it turns out from Missori, the bees have settled into around 5.0mm average. This slightly larger attribute has to to with the latitude. That's not to say I don't see much 4.6mm, I see plantly, but in florida is was much more prominent, here it's less prominent. This is also, just like Dennis in top bar hives without foundation (I don't use foundation). Dennis's comments about cell size are valid about the variability of cell size, however one thing I believe he missed is that the size of the core brood nest corresponds directly to the size of the initial cluster. If one takes a strong colony in the spring and shakes the whole thing down into an empty top bar hive again, the core of the broodnest is MUCH MUCH larger. This is where I believe his observations break down, because it is NOT simply a seasonal issue, but a combination of both cluster size and season. If you over time continue to feed empty bars into the core of the brood nest during the brooding season, you will continue to have that variability (which I agree with dennis is important), but the small cells become extremely dominant in the nest. The bees continue to build other sizes as well including on the very large end of the spectrum, but it remains at the perimeter and between brood and honey comb. If you do not feed in empty bars, then the bees are forced to use the larger cells and therefore they do use them because they need the worker numbers, however if you do feed in the empty bars, the bees will begin to choose to NOT use the larger cells as the smaller cells become increasingly available. As I have seen many many times, the bees will brood through a long and narrow snake of small cells through the nest to avoid using the larger. I have seen it far too many times and consistently to think its chance. Variability is seems isn't a function of seasonal brood needs, but more related to the size of the cluster when it makes a seasonal transition from building brood comb to building honey comb. I do agree that dennis's observations have been keen and unbiased, however I also think he's missed some key items here and there and developed a personal theory before enough time for observation had passed and he had the chance to try 2nd year shakes of whole colonies or feeding bars into the brood nest gradually over a period of several years like I have had the opportunity to do. I think Dennis will agree that where you keep bees does make a difference, but also that some key tenets of beekeeping are universal no matter where you are. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 22:26:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - ">It is all in the flavor. The kids like sweet w=". Rest of header flushed. From: walter weller Subject: Re: Feeding honey to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill wrote:=0D=0A=0D=0A>It is all in the flavor. The kids like sweet w= ith little flavor while =0D=0A>the older folk wanted the flavor.=0D=0A= =0D=0ASame with beer (I'm a brewer). Kids and inexperienced beer tast= ers prefer light pale lagers; older people seem to prefer dark beers a= nd ales.=0D=0A=0D=0AWalter Weller=0D=0A=0D=0A= -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 00:10:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: Pollen supplement feeding tip Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All You've seen how Keith Jarret pours his pollen supp mix into tubs, then dumps the tubs over onto plywood and cuts the cake with a spade. We had trouble getting the cake to slip out of greased plastic tubs until I thought of lining the oiled tub with a sheet of newspaper. The pollen supp drops out cleanly, and is easy to cut with the spade right through the paper. Most novel way to mix sugar syrup I've seen: local hobbyist uses an old washing machine. Dumps sugar in, has hot water hooked to fill hose, runs wash cycle to dissolve sugar, spin cycle pumps syrup into buckets. Randy Oliver (and in answer to Murray) 500 colonies, migratory, 5 moves a year; raise queens,sell nucs, pollinate, produce honey Have made every mistake in the book, and created many of my own. Like to base my opinions on hard data. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 21:54:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: alternatives to requeening In-Reply-To: <20061116042905.15174.qmail@web53415.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Stoops wrote: >I have never thought of using established colonies to strengthen nucs instead of going the other way. I think it is an innovative thought. Others may have thought of it, and tried it, so may have their experiences to bring to the discussion. > > Hi Mike I sell several hundred nucs in a typical year. I take strong colonies to almonds Feb 10. Bring 'em home usu. second week of March. Have queen cells going when they arrive home. Start splitting the strongest before they swarm. Do "yard trashing." Break each 2-story colony into 5 4-frame nucs. Catch about 2/3rds of the queens as I do. I make about a nuc a minute if I have a helper. Leave exceptionally good queens in the yard with two frames of brood, and a double of drawn comb to pick up the field forces of the colonies I nuked. They recover immediately. Nucs made with 1 frame honey, 2 brood, 1 drawn empty comb. (I run 10 frames, if you're checking the math). Move all nucs to another yard. I often make nucs late in the day so I pick up more field bees. I do not feed the nucs, since there is a moderate nectar flow on in my area. Put ripe cells in the next day. Two weeks check for eggs/brood. Kill any poor old queens I find. Typically 4 out of 5 mate successfully (poorer early). I add the frames from the dinks to the successful ones to fill the boxes to 5 frames. I sell in a few days, or leave in nuc box up until brood starts to hatch and they explode. Nucs to keep I drop into singles. Honeyflow starts mid May, and nucs fill the single. Move to alfalfa for big flow July 5. Put super of foundation on top of single. Bees will draw and fill at least one deep of foundation. This makes up the frames that I sell with the nucs, and gets my keepers ready for winter. I extract several frames of honey from the keepers, and replace with extracted comb for fall pollen flow. Has worked for me for nearly 20 years. I rotate old combs out, big bees for almonds, good money in nucs, make a decent amount of honey. Worked a lot better before the mite! Still haven't gotten rich. I raise about 1000 queens a year, and rarely use a queen cage--everything is done with nucs. Randy Oliver Calif > > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 22:21:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: re number of beekeepers in the UK In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: >In ten years if I am still around I predict I will be writing of the woes >of the California beekeeper in ABJ & BC. HUGE outfits are relocating into >California now to chase almond pollination. California beekeepers are >shipping their bees out of the huge state of California in summer to find >nectar sources. > > Bob, You could write about our woes right now. There are places in California that you could throw a rock in any direction and hear it bounce off the lid of a bee hive. Every out of state colony that collapses in almonds leaves a good supply of its mites here in the Golden State. It's hard for me to imagine how sweet it would be to leave your colonies in one place all year and make a big honey crop. Where I live it's not unusual to go six straight months in summer without a drop of rain. We gotta work bees nearly every month of the year. Randy Oliver > > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 09:06:33 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Chris Slade >Another question: do the wing veins (reflecting the shape of the wing) > change as a strain is down-sized? > Noewegians have showed in their small cell test that cubital index changes in small cell hives. Ari Seppälä -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 23:26:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Stealth Bees! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: >Stealth Bees! > >Why are African bees so successful at invading and taking over in the new >areas they have encountered as they have moved from Brazil, through Central >America, and finally to the US? There is no doubt that there are many >mechanisms responsible for this, but one of the most interesting is their >propensity to "take over" colonies of less aggressive European bees. > > Hi Peter, Gloria just presented at the CSBA convention. She showed that an AHB swarm will land near the entrance of an EHB colony--preferrring queenless or poorly queened colonies. The AHB workers intermingle and work their way in, and dispatch the EHB queen overnight. They then form a tight ball (different than "balling") around their own queen and move her in, keeping her protected by their bodies for a few days until she is accepted. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 09:20:46 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Pollen supplement feeding tip MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy Oliver > Most novel way to mix sugar syrup I've seen: local hobbyist uses an old > washing machine. Dumps sugar in, has hot water hooked to fill hose, runs > wash cycle to dissolve sugar, spin cycle pumps syrup into buckets. I have done this with an old Hoover single tub machine, but you do need to put a cork into the hole leading to the pump before emtying in the sugar. Remove it when the sugar has dissolved and you are ready to pump out. If sugar goes down into the pump it will wreck it. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 07:27:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Australian access to the U.S.A. ( was re number of beekeepers in the U.K.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Trevor, I was never told the methods used to fast track the import only that an expensive lawyer was hired and got the job done. The most supprising thing was the beekeeper never intended to import bees from Australia. He had another reason for pushing the import. Large scale beekeepers are excellent chess players usually. I did put the beekeeper in contact with Terry Brown and he priced some loads into the U.S. but never had pallets shipped to my knowledge. His packages would have came through London (changed planes which is problematic) and would have been of higher cost than the west coast. bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 18:42:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris: Another question: do the wing veins (reflecting the shape of the wing) change as a strain is down-sized? Put another way: is the shrinkage proportional throughout the bee? Reply: As the old mediterranean colors reappear, and size gets down to where it should be by old archives for feral, the pictures layed out of wings veins early on, get more and more just like they were originally shown for differences. In other words it comes back together for what you are looking at. Then add the characteristics and time of year for doing and it is just something to see......FWIW Regards, Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510k for $1,698/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 18:57:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Thelytoky In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter: Dr. Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman of the USDA Carl Hayden Bee Research Center in Tucson has recently demonstrated that these shiny black bees are "intermorphs" that have characteristics of both workers and queens. Reply: Yes, and my husband Ed and I demonstrated for her and Dr Erickson shiny back bees back in the 1980s when we were doing thelytoky stuff with USDA FWIW, and intermorph or intercastes as early written about in early Gleanings in Bee Culture back pre-WW2 are nothing new, and in fact make the best robber bees for commercial bee wars for territory holding you can find..........Even wrote to other labs about that......Baton Rouge to be exact, about those good litte shiny black bees......Dr Levin wanted us to get something going for pot stirring so we did FWIW ... Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Compare mortgage rates for today. Get up to 5 free quotes. Www2.nextag.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 19:26:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question In-Reply-To: <373.eabe562.32902d6d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris writes: Is colour the only criterion by which you judge whether the bees are 'Italian' or not? The darker colour could be selected for rapidly within a race if it was advantageous eg living higher. Reply: For old mediterranean color types of italian there is a range, like with old caucasian like/similar, there is a range/spread, and native bees FWIW if one believes, depending upon what one consideres native and how long one has to live in an area to be native. Rapid selection of color means nothing in a way, like mongrelization means nothing except both get results FWIW. It's the holding of traits, once pressure is let off for permanency that counts for the long haul, along with uniformity and other. So in following the bees and their needs, sustaining uniformity is the big key for following what is needed to be done to know you are making headway. ONce there like I said things start falling into place. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510k for $1,698/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 04:08:52 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Thelytoky MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, > but they are signs that AHB colonies are in the area. > I think I will laugh too, I have been seeing these shiny black bees for a quit a few years now in the colonies I keep; and the bees that are brought into Alaska are primarily brought in from Northern California originally. This would mean that AHB is in Northern California and now Alaska if what you are saying is the truth. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 08:32:23 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 19/11/2006 12:44:58 GMT Standard Time, komppa-seppala@CO.INET.FI writes: Noewegians have showed in their small cell test that cubital index changes in small cell hives. Ari, In which direction? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 06:14:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: Pollen supplement feeding tip MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, Randy O. wrote, We had trouble > getting the cake to slip out of greased plastic tubs until I thought of Randy, try some straight cooking oil, safflower or canola or what's handy, don't use grease.Coat all sides and the bottom and you will have no problems releasing your tubs. I pour a gallon in the first tub then rotate to the second ,third ,fourth and so on down the line, its takes about 10 seconds to coat a tub. I'm putting on BEE-L so if any others have the same problems. It took me a couple years of trail and ERROR to find that cooking oil works the best. Keith Jarrett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 10:47:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question In-Reply-To: <001e01c70ba9$4005a9c0$0500000a@ari71aa1cf24c5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ari writes: Noewegians have showed in their small cell test that cubital index changes in small cell hives. Reply: Yes, it has to go back to what it was and this is what we have seen for the most part...... So if firm lines were drawn today based on artificial upsizing for being what a bee is, when reverted down, back to original sizing mentioned in old archives, things fall back into place with pictures and diagrams back then, and might account for now olden stuff not being available, as not needed to show the circle going round. Dee- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420k for $1,399/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 14:29:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Francis_Fedrizzi?= Subject: Hony Plant Yeild per Acre Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I live in Maine and have a few acres I'd like to seed with a good nectar producing plant for my honey bees. Does anyone know of any references that indicate the honey yield per acre by plant? Any specific suggestions for a good Maine honey plant? Thanks, Francis Fedrizzi -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 20:39:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Diotima Booraem Subject: Egg police Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi all, Found this in a recent edition of New Scientist and thought it would be of interest, given the recent discussion. Regards, Diotima Egg police crack down on broody bees * 01 November 2006 Would better policing reduce crime? It does in some insect societies. The apparently harmonious behaviour of worker honeybees and common wasps is all down to a watchful police force. Tom Wenseleers of the Catholic University of Leuven (KUL) in the Netherlands and Francis Ratnieks of the University of Sheffield, UK, studied nine species of social wasps and the honeybee. In all of these colonies the workers have functional ovaries and could lay eggs, but instead they usually raise the offspring of the queen. What stops them from being selfish and laying their own eggs? The answer turned out to be the "egg police". Wenseleers and Ratnieks found that the more effective the policing - where the queen or worker "police" eat worker-laid eggs - the lower the likelihood of a renegade worker laying its own egg (Nature, vol 444, p 50). "In honeybees the policing was so good, with 98 to 100 per cent of worker-laid eggs killed, that less than one in a thousand workers tried to lay an egg," says Ratnieks. Conversely in some wasp species - particularly those with closely related workers - policing was slack and nearly half the workers laid eggs. When workers were not closely related they policed each other more strictly. From issue 2576 of New Scientist magazine, 01 November 2006, page 16 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "If there is a better solution...find it" Thomas Edison Virtual Assistance: The better solution for small business. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Diotima Booraem, CPVA Virtual Executive Assistance http://www.virtualhelp.biz E-mail: diotima@virtualhelp.biz -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 08:05:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Hony Plant Yeild per Acre In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Francis Fedrizzi wrote: > I live in Maine and have a few acres I'd like to seed with a good nectar > producing plant for my honey bees. White clover is always the best bet. I think the more important nectar is the earlier dandelion flow since it is what gets everything moving. With it the clover becomes your honey crop. You can get both since that is exactly what my yard has. Golden yellow in the spring and lots of clover that follows. You might also think of planting raspberries and blueberries for varietal honeys and get the added benefit of the berries. I planted about a half acre of clover for my bees and finally just let it go since they seemed to do just find on their own. The field now has loostrife which is an invasive pest but great nectar source between late summer and fall along with goldenrod and aster which are their fall sources. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 16:30:44 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First I was aware of Thelytoky having been told about it a while ago by Dee, howver the beekeeper asking the question was obviously a neophite tot he craft and a thoroughly accurate answer would only serve to confude hin /her. Secondly about the arrival of AHB to an area, I did not realise that the bees needed to have a state declaration before they could arrive. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- > Also so-called AHB didn't reach our > area until about 1996 by state declaration with finding > next to our SC yards too by the way for FWIW. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 12:49:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: shiny black bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith Malone wrote: >I think I will laugh too, I have been seeing these shiny black bees for a quit a few years now in the colonies I keep It is important to distinguish between the intermorphs and ordinary robber bees, which are also "shiny black bees" QUOTE: we collected worker bees that were robbers, identified by their smooth, shiny black appearance. Because IMs exhibit some of the same morphological features (see below) and can be associated with robbing, the final comparison allowed us to assess whether IMs were simply robber bees or a unique type of worker. Workers with reduced numbers of hairs and shiny black abdomens have been reported previously and the appearance attributed to robbing behavior, feeding on certain nectars or pollens, or viral infection causing hairless or "black bee" syndrome. In our study, robber bees were clearly distinguishable from IMs. from: Description of an Intermorph Between a Worker and Queen in African Honey Bees Apis mellifera scutellata GLORIA DEGRANDI-HOFFMAN -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 15:41:44 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Egg police MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 20/11/2006 12:37:30 GMT Standard Time, diotima@VIRTUALHELP.BIZ writes: Conversely in some wasp species - particularly those with closely related workers - policing was slack and nearly half the workers laid eggs. When workers were not closely related they policed each other more strictly. >From issue 2576 of New Scientist magazine, 01 November 2006, page 16 This is elucidated the following week in issue 2577 where, in an article headed 'Survival of the Nicest' its author Lee Alan Dugatkin explores altruism. He refers to a mathematical theory for its evolution devised by Bill Hamilton and now known as Hamilton's Rule. It is a simple equation with 3 variables: the cost of altruism to the altruist (c), the benefit that a recipient of altruism receives (b) and their genetic relatedness (r). The Rule is that natural selection favours altruism when r x b > c. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 16:58:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: shiny black bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > Workers with reduced numbers of hairs and shiny > black abdomens have been reported previously and > the appearance ..., feeding > on certain nectars or pollens, When I was taken around the Blueberry fields by Tony Jadczak he pointed out "shiny black bees". They were common and I believe it was because of the small blueberry flower which the bees tried to get into for nectar. They literally wore their hair off. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 17:51:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: shiny black bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > It is important to distinguish between the intermorphs and ordinary robber > bees, which are also "shiny black bees" > Do these intermorphs do ordinary bee-things like foraging? I took a picture of a bee this past summer that was foraging on some wild primrose and was struck by it's odd appearance: http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/Bees_On_Flowers/target101.html Clearly it's an old bee, judging from the frayed edges of it's wings, but only it's abdomen is really hairless- it's got plenty of hair on it's thorax and head. It this an intermorph? George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 16:23:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: re number of beekeepers in the UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to all, Randy O. wrote, . There are places in > California that you could throw a rock in any direction and hear it bounce > off the lid of a bee hive. Randy, I think most out-of-staters think Calif is wide open. Up your way I can think of 8-12 keepers that all run over 10,000 hives a piece, all within a 50 mile stretch (that's 100,000 hives plus ). We won't mention the 2 to 5 thousand hive guy's here. Every out of state colony that > collapses in almonds leaves a good supply of its mites here in the Golden > State. I think we should put a sur-charge on all bees coming into the state, in other words, at the border two dollars a hive, or go back where you came from. Randy, I find most that write about Calif beekeeping that don't live here, still don't get it. I think they should write about their experiences in their own state and leave writing about almonds and Calif beekeeping to us that run our outfits here 24-7. Keith Jarrett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:33:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Small Cell research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Brian Fredericksen wrote : > When I see a study by Marla Spivak, Tom Seeley or one of the other dozen or so respected bee researchers on small cell I will take the claims more seriously. Finding one or two articles from someone no one has every heard of means nothing at this point. Marla Spivak wrote in response to a report called "Breeding Varroa Resistant Bees" in the "Bee Improvement Magazine": > It seems from your report that you favor the cell size method for selecting bees for resistance. I will say that the "jury is still out" from my perspective. As for the Lusby's experience: I have not seen any confirmation that the Lusby's bees are actually European bees (not Africanized bees, which are very resistant to mites on their own). It is possible, although I haven't seen any good research on this, that cell size would reduce the number of total offspring the mites produce and possibly the number of female offspring. You would have to inspect 30 infested cells per colony and count the number of viable offspring. This was done by Mia Davidsson in 1992 at the Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences. She wrote: > Three different foundations were used, 640, 770, and 900 cells/ sq. dm. The foundations were introduced in three different colonies at the University, and the postcapping stage and the weight of the bees were compared. No difference could be found in postcapping stages between the cell sizes. Comparison of the reproduction of the mites in different cell sizes showed no significant differences if the material was divided into two groups, fertile and non fertile mother mites. There were significant differences between cell sizes in offspring composition but the results do not indicate that the reproduction of mites was substantially influenced by cell size on worker bee brood. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:24:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Data on colony deaths In-Reply-To: <20061120013908.GDVK527.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net@DIODESK.virtualhelp.biz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.jacheres-apicoles.fr/index/chap-dossierda/ Interesting link - but article only in French! Comparison of average annual colony losses. Regards, Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:31:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Colony losses in France In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to all, Another interesting media article relating to the study undertaken to put light on the origin of massive colony losses in France ( and other countries). http://www.francematin.info/Des-parasites-deciment-les-abeilles_a8087.html Blame placed on V.d. and Nosema ceranae! Regards, Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:50:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: shiny black bees In-Reply-To: <45623167.5050807@sweettimeapiary.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit George: No it is not. Wrong description of what you are seeing to fit want you want here. Regards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510k for $1,698/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 21:37:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Small Cell Research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst: Three different foundations were used, 640, 770, and 900 cells/ sq. dm. Reply: Seeing how this was done back in '92 when we were into the 900 series which Dadant produced and we didn't like the fudge (stretch) factor in assemblylining production, and also were making own equivalent which was 5.0mm to 5.1mm; we had to retool in year 8, to fine tool better for even more varroa control and secondary disease control, which meant going down smaller to 4.9mm top tolerance to gain that control,... thus the 900 size is considered a first regression step down. All this shows is more work was needed to proceed to gain control, which we did. It also showed that you cannot put hives tested side by side or nearby due to drift and evening out of mites to see what has to be done. Learned a lot by it, but maybe not what others saw, so we could continue forward in following our bees needs. You cannot draw a line at 5.0mm hard and fast for Nature doesn't work like that. You have to follow the bees' needs which we did. For until the bees get what they need there will be problems, and you will never arrive at a harmonious balanced end with all inhabitants in a hive at peace FWIW in co-existance. In the end, I think even man will work that way. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420k for $1,399/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 07:22:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Small Cell research Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst wrote: ...There were significant differences between cell sizes in offspring composition but the results do not indicate that the reproduction of mites was substantially influenced by cell size on worker bee brood. -----> Hello PB, >From my experience, small cell works over time, there is no need to cream them all the varroa in a single brood cycle or two. I understanding is it is an old outdated 10 year old study you are referring to here. But, even though it is outdated, old and dusty, the study did show that the smaller size cells caused more Non-reproducing mites and less reproduction of mites than the larger sizes. So it is more supportive of the small cell evidence than it is against the evidence. In this more 'recent study' by De Jong 2003, De Jong finds a significant differenc in varroa infestations between large and small cells: “Varroa mite infestations in Africanized honey bee brood are clearly affected by comb cell width” “Additionally, in our experimental colonies the mites could choose between small Africanized comb cells, “medium-sized” Italian cells and large Carniolan cells. They preferred the largest cells.” “About 100 cells of each type were analyzed in each colony. The Africanized comb cells were significantly smaller in (inner) width (4.84 mm) than the European-sized comb cells (5.16 and 5.27 mm for Italian and Carniolan cells, respectively). The brood cell infestation rates (percentage cells infested) were significantly higher in the Carniolan- sized comb cells (19.3%) than in the Italian and Africanized cells (13.9 and 10.3%, respectively). The Carniolan-sized cells also had a significantly larger number of invading adult female mites per 100 brood cells (24.4) than did the Italian-sized cells (17.7) and the natural-sized Africanized worker brood cells (15.6). European-sized worker brood cells were always more infested than the Africanized worker brood cells in the same colony. There was a highly significant correlation (P<0.01) between cell width and the rate of infestation with varroa in four of the six colonies. The small width comb cells produced by Africanized honey bees may have a role in the ability of these bees to tolerate infestations by Varroa destructor, furthermore it appears that natural-sized comb cells are superior to over-sized comb cells for disease resistance.” Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 09:11:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Small Cell research In-Reply-To: <200611211410.kALC3U3Y002532@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Readers are cautioned about making broad brushed generalizations on small cell benefits for all honey bees based on published research titled, "Varroa mite infestations in AFRICANIZED HONEY BEE brood are clearly affected by comb cell width" (emphasis mine). More than a few will contend that the most vociferous support for small cell beekeeping comes from an area that has been determined to be colonized by AFRICANIZED HONEY BEEs. Aaron Morris - thinking an apple is not an orange! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 07:37:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Small Cell Research Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: >Reply: >Seeing how this was done back in '92,,, Hi Dee, I don’t understand why PB upholds the study as not supportive of small cell, for the information actually supports small cell. If you look at info from the study on the link below, it clearly shows less reproducing mites in smaller sized cells along with more non reproducing mites in small cells when compared to the larger sizes. This would over time have a significant impact on the mite population http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/cell.htm Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 07:44:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: shiny black bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit George Fergusson wrote: >Do these intermorphs do ordinary bee-things like foraging? There is no mention of them foraging in Dr. Degrandi-Hoffman's article. She writes: This is the first instance that IMs have been reported in African honey bees in the New World. IMs have features in common with both workers and queens. Morphological features such as body size, the shape of the head, mandibles, stinger, and corbiculae of IMs are similar to workers. However, the shape of the abdomen, number and distribution of thoracic and abdominal hairs, and chemical composition of volatile compounds emanating from IMs are similar to those from queens. Workers with reduced numbers of hairs and shiny black abdomens have been reported previously and the appearance attributed to robbing behavior, feeding on certain nectars or pollens or viral infection causing hairless or “black bee” syndrome. In our study, robber bees were clearly distinguishable from IMs. One explanation for IMs having morphological features that are similar to workers and queens is that during a least a portion of their larval life they were fed differently from larvae destined to be workers. Perhaps the most intriguing feature of IMs is that they emit many of the same volatile compounds as a queen. Others have reported queen-like components from the mandibular glands of intercastes of A. mellifera and "pseudoqueens" from A. m. capensis , but this is the first report where volatiles from IMs, queens, and workers are compared. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 08:03:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: >Also so-called AHB didn't reach our >area until about 1996 by state declaration with finding >next to our SC yards too by the way for FWIW. According to Dr. Schneider: The African bee arrived in Arizona in 1993 and has subsequently established large populations that contain few or no European matrilines. The mountains surrounding the Tucson basin harbor a large population of feral African colonies and forage availability at these higher elevations declines during the fall and winter months. This may result in large-scale absconding into the Tucson basin, where horticultural and agricultural activity result in increased floral abundance during this period. Many usurpation swarms may therefore be small reproductive or absconding African swarms that would have a low probability of surviving if they attempted to establish their own nests, especially during fall and winter. Rather, these swarms may adopt a strategy of invasion and reproductive parasitism, and this tendency may be particularly pronounced during seasonal absconding. Nest usurpation may therefore be an important component of the annual colony cycle that contributes to the spread of African matrilines in the Tucson region. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 09:21:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Small Cell Research In-Reply-To: <200611211419.kALC3U9g002532@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/cell.htm "There were significant diffrerences between cell sizes in offspring composition but THE RESULT DO NOT INDICATE THAT THE REPRODUCTION OF MITES WAS SUBSTANTAILLY INFLUENCED BY CELL SIZE ON WORKER BROOD. (emphasis their's). Aaron Morris - thinking read what they write! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 08:56:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Re; re number of beekeepers in the U.K. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Keith & All, I would not want to live in California. Nice place to visit especially if getting paid. If you look at my long list of articles on almond pollination you will see pictures of me driving the truck, forklift, my bees. "Been there done that" You said in reference to my article last spring "who are these beekeepers upset with brokers?". I listed about half but kept silent on those which asked to remain unlisted. So in the next article I listed most of the brokers and beekeepers. Gave contact information on two. Then along comes Randy O. & Keith J. almond article and guess what. Not one person is named. None of the sources are named. What gives? I am not saying the article was off base ( well maybe on the Australian package bees but realize when beekeepers get the same pollination fee as you do for a hive you have spent a bunch of money on and time it upsets you) In fact the article said almost the same information mine did ten months earlier. Fact: The package bees I wrote about in my first Australian package bee story were placed at $35 a hive higher than any of the other 5000 hives. In 1998 Roger Morse made his predictions of what beekeeping would look like in the future. I have always been an admirer of his. My background is a beekeeper like Randy O. & Keith J. but I honestly believe that Roger Morse possibly the most prolific author of the modern generation is right on in his predictions. I plan on ( and have been working on) my predictions for the future of commercial beekeeping and will be in the form of an article. its only been eight years since Roger made his predictions but I see many of his predictions happening. I think if the list takes my article back out 20 years from now they will see I was not far off. Predicting the future is hard but I run in the circles of the "movers & shakers" of the bee business and they are always speaking of their future plans over the next 5 years, 10 years and 20 years. I recommend the book "Bad Beekeeping" to all commercial beekeepers. Ron Miksha ( and his long time beekeeping family) are excellent beekeepers. The book is a record of growing a commercial outfit. I highly recommend to Randy & Keith. Can be purchased at Betterbee for 30% off in December sale. The title for the above book was not a good choice. "bad" as refered to is used like the word was used when Ron & I were growing up in Florida. In other words really beautiful or fast cars were refered to as "bad cars" or if a car had a souped up engine it was called a "bad engine". The book describes to constant change of commercial beekeeping and what always happens to those commercial beekeepers which do not adapt quickly. Sincerely, bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:05:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Small Cell research In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please, in this discussion, post the entire reference's title, author, date and publication or a link to the reference, otherwise there is little to discuss other than someone's idea of what the research says. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:12:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, I learned an interesting fact from Dr. Orley Taylor ( spent five years on Mexican border doing research on AHB) in a presentation on AHB at the fall meeting of the Kansas Honey Producers. Dr. Taylor said AHB is most aggressive when nectar is coming in rather than less aggressive when nectar is coming in like our EU bees. Arizona around Tucson is not known for big honey crops and big nectar flows. Perhaps one reason Dee has not seen the type of aggressive behavior as in Florida is what dr. Taylor reports. If AHB ( as reported by Taylor) is the most aggressive when nectar is coming in an effective management tool it would seem is to wait until all flows are stopped to harvest honey and work the hives. I have asked researchers what are the odds the Lusbys could keep AHB genetics out of 900 hives in an area which has been listed as AHB for over a decade. You all know what the answer was so no use posting. bob Ps. I do believe after long conversations with D. murrel and others small cell might have some positive points ( even without the AHB genetics factor) so after much pushing and shoving by the small cell group I have decided to test on a small scale ( as i posted earlier). update: My 25 pounds ( 175 frames worth) of 4.9mm foundation came last week. I borrowed a Dadant wire embeder from Glenn Davis.I have not wired a frame in over 20 years! I plan on asembling the frames before long and doing as I posted earlier. Most small cell people agree I should see some of the things they see but maybe not all. Will be fall of 2007 before a report on what I am seeing can be made. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 07:24:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter writes: According to Dr. Schneider: The African bee arrived in Arizona in 1993 and has subsequently established large populations that contain few or no European matrilines. Reply: Funny the local beekeeping industry did not see this with everyone watching bees closely. Continuing: The mountains surrounding the Tucson basin harbor a large population of feral African colonies and forage availability at these higher elevations declines during the fall and winter months. This may result in large-scale absconding into the Tucson basin, where horticultural and agricultural activity result in increased floral abundance during this period. Reply: Also, this I find in direct confict with real world as the oaks, willows, cottonwoods, pine, sycamore, mesquite/catsclaw trees, not to name shrubs and ground cover are all in the hills and in elevations outside the limit of AHB even by early map done by Taylor and Spivak even that surround Tucson, which is not agricultural by a long-shot, except in road medians, for houses cover the rest, along with golf courses with grass mostly. Regards, Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Rates near 39yr lows. $510,000 Loan for $1698/mo. Calcuate new payment. www.LowerMyBills.com/lre -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 07:41:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Small Cell Research In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe, All this shows is more work was needed to proceed to gain better control, which we did, as the reduced numbers were not fully good enough to take care of the secondary diseases. You must remember that we were many years ahead here with work in the field, supplying foundation even, besides bees to the labs, but this helped to confirm what we were seeing,...mainly that we had to fine tune more and more. But the main problem was no one would let go of a smaller embossing roller setup to us so we could try it out and see, as line had already been drawn for measurement of what AHB was and that meant going into forbidden territory. Even Toma was afraid of being deported, and only after things were worked around, and he came and visited us to actually see the natural built combs we had on topbar type frames in our hives, did he supply/make the smaller mill available in end of 95, and then we had to retool foundation ahead to get ready for spring of 1997 for next regression down to 4.9mm where things really fell into place more. REgards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Rates near 39yr lows. $420,000 Loan for $1399/mo. Calcuate new payment. www.LowerMyBills.com/lre -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 08:26:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Re: hello and an anatomical question In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 21, 2006, at 5:03 AM, Peter Borst wrote (in part): > According to Dr. Schneider: > > The African bee arrived in Arizona in 1993 and has subsequently > established > large populations that contain few or no European matrilines. That year (1993) agrees with my understanding. That year my friend, Gerry Loper, went out to check a recently hived swarm in Tucson while dressed in shorts and sandals. He got a real surprise when he lifted the lid !! I believe that is the first record of AHB in Arizona. Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:39:25 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Re; re number of beekeepers in the U.K. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Said: The book describes to constant change of commercial beekeeping and what always happens to those commercial beekeepers which do not adapt quickly. Reply: I find it interesting that this is said in light of beekeepers refusing to adapt to a non-chemical management system when the chemical management system doesn't seem to be working. I am not sure why the need for prior proof of a non-chemical system working before trying it when the chemical system we already know isn't working. Bob Cox from Weslaco bee lab had as part of his presentation, in the Nov 2005 IHPA meet, data that demonstrated that no legally applied treatment seems to be working. I also find it interesting that these same beekeepers are attributing varroa tolerance of AHB to be genetics and not the small cell size associated with AHB despite the fact that beekeepers well beyond the AHB's influence are having as much success with small cell as those beekeepers who are successful with small cell in the declared AHB territories. Studies can say a lot, and they can say nothing at all. They provide data, sure...however what is more important to us as beekeepers is practical success, not data. It is amazing that the data says we shouldn't be successfully raising bees with growth, despite the fact that offical data suggests we should have been out of business long ago. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:44:05 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Small Cell research In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092109A65133@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >More than a few will contend that the most vociferous support for small cell beekeeping comes from an >area that has been determined to be colonized by AFRICANIZED HONEY BEEs. I didn't realize there was an AHB problem in any of Iowa/Illinois, Pennsylvania, Nebraska, Wyoming, Alaska, and Alberta. These are where the most vociferous proponents of small cell operate, there is only one who is in offially declared AHB territory. -- Scot McPherson The McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:31:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: re; numbers of beekeepers in the U.K. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Scot, *If* Bob Cox said that no legal treatment for varroa seems to be working then he needs to get into another line of work as both Miteaway 2/apilife var and apigard work fine AS LONG as the varroa load is not above threshold. Then nothing will save the hive. I have spoken with commercial beekeepers which are still getting control with apistan & checkmite although not in my neck of the woods. I have tested all three of the above soft treatments with good results. Close attention needs to be paid to temps and making sure applications are done at the correct times. The small cell crowd is very very small. Almost too small as to count in a *survey* of *methods* to control varroa. fact: Most beekeepers are using some sort of treatment. I am also amazed at the number of beekeepers which buy Russian bees and survivor bees and still treat. You have made lots of claims but nothing to back up your claims. For all we know all your bees are dead and your boxes filled with wax moth. Same with me except you can see pictures of my hives in bee magazines. Check those big slabs of brood in my last ABJ article. My bees are doing great without small cell but over the last five or so years i have hit some ( not all and only when needed) with one of the three soft LEGAL methods talked about above. The survivor yards have never been treated. My question : "why should I go to small cell if I am having such success with soft treatments? " Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:21:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: General Management Questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Scot Mc Pherson wrote: >I find it interesting that this is said in light of beekeepers refusing >to adapt to a non-chemical management system when the chemical >management system doesn't seem to be working. Actually, many beekeepers are thriving these days using various chemical treatments. You have to alternate them, and it is worthwhile using all available IPM techniques, even if some don't seem to work alone. >I also find it interesting that these same beekeepers are attributing >varroa tolerance of AHB to be genetics and not the small cell size I think the point is, what works on Africans and what works on Europeans are not the same thing, especially if Africans have special traits that enable them to fight off varroa enough to survive. Reread Dr. Spivak's comments. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 12:26:10 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Small Cell Research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, > http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/cell.htm > Just curious, was this test scrutinized and reproduced to meet = scientific standards for validity? Where are the control figures in the = test? That is colonies with combs built with no foundation or perhaps = colonies without mixed comb sizes which this test had mix of comb sizes. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:53:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Small Cell research Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron Morris wrote: ...More than a few >will contend that the most vociferous support for small cell beekeeping >comes from an area that has been determined to be colonized by >AFRICANIZED HONEY BEEs. Hello Aaron, Thank you for cautioning out readers. The study does suggest that in spite of the varroa suppression abilities of AHB colonies, the ability seems to lessen as cell size increases. “Carniolan-sized comb cells (19.3%)” “Africanized worker brood cells (15.6).” “European-sized worker brood cells were always more infested” Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:13:39 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: re; numbers of beekeepers in the U.K. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, > My question : "why should I go to small cell if I am having such = success with soft treatments? " > Bob, I consider you a small cell beekeeper already, just not as small as = some others. What is your cell size 5.1mm or 5.2mm? If either of the two = your in the natural range of cell sizes putting you in the small cell = size range. In my opinion it does not matter what some map may say your = cell size should be, it matters what the feral bees or your bees are = inclined to draw if let to do so. My range here where I keep bees seems = to be at present 4.9mm to 5.2mm, but that may change as queens shift and = genetics settle. Bob, your probably only one step away from being a = small cell beekeeper. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 22:33:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Re: number of beekeepers in the U.K. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Had requests for Roger Morse predictions article. In 1998 Roger Morse , made a strong case for opening the Mexican and Canadian borders to the free movement of bees. " Moving Bees from the Yucatan to Canada will soon be a reality" Research review Bee Culture Feb. 1998 Roger Morse traveled in many of the same circles I do. I have studied Nafta and understand what the free trade people are pushing. The new 10 lane superhighway between Mexico & Canada starts construction next spring ( according to what I found on the net). several football fields wide. Computers will track every person on the highway and each person entering and exiting will be screened( the security system is called sentrol or maybe cintrol). Big brother like never seen before! Will pass within 50 miles of my location. You can get information off the net about the construction ( complete with maps). The north ends at Deluth, Minn. and a section runs into Ohio. Follows I35 & 69 highway north. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---