From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:53:03 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-85.6 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,MILLION_USD,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 117304830D for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFkpIP016612 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:17 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0704A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 121995 Lines: 2703 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 23:04:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Congressional Report on CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >and I have to say I've never seen any bees in the soybeans. In the bootheel of Missouri I have personally seen 80-100 Delta Bee Farm hives in a single location on soybeans with several supers full of soybean honey. Also the hives of Dennis Simmons in Illinois south of Quincy. However we only make soybean honey every once in awhile in my area of Missouri. I have found the bees enter the rows from the outside of the rows . Usually between 10 am & 2 PM on certain days and only when nectar is flowing. I find the bees seem to mainly work soybeans with the purple flowers but in the bootheel a friend ( Delta Bee Farm) which runs around 8,000 hives reports he produces soybean honey from both the white & purple flowers. Soil or humidity difference? Many barrels of soybean honey are produced in the Missouri bootheel and the River bottoms of northern Arkansas ( Fisher bee farm & Jester Bee Farm). I have meet another beekeeper from the East Tennessee area which hauls all his hives to the Mississippi River bottoms of west Tennessee for Soybean honey. I saw his bee truck at a restaurant on a trip back north from Georgia. I don't remember his name right now but have got his card in the card file. Was not very friendly to myself and an employee until he recognized my name and said" aren't you the guy what wrote the article on the Russian bees in Bee Culture"? He then opened up to us and shared information about soybean honey. He was very interested in the Russian Bee. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 08:12:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: candle making MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Kent asks about candle making with metal molds. first advice, don't use a metal mold. Polyurethane molds are available through beekeeping supply houses and they are far easier to deal with, and less expensive than metal in the long run. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 05:45:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Bee Venom Therapy Used to Treat Equine Arthritis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Bee Venom Therapy Used to Treat Equine Arthritis A Case Study of Bee Venom in the Treatment of Equine Arthritis of the Knee John Drakes, Beelief Apitherapy (UK) Presented at: 5th German Apitherapy Congress, March 23-25, 2007, Passau, Germany SEE: http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/04/bee-venom-therapy-used-to-treat-equine.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 12:27:28 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Bee Nutrition Again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since this all started years ago on BEE-L, and the discussion here resulted in widespread efforts to develop better bee diets, improvements in delivery of existing diets, the establishment of a company that does nothing but manufacture patties for bees, and consequent improvements in the design of the patties themselves, along with a significant and continuing reduction in patty prices to beekeepers, and I was corresponding with several people about freshness, I thought it appropriate to copy some of that (edited) to the list. To provide some background, first I should mention that the Southern Alberta Beekeepers (an informal group of friends, mostly with large beekeeping operations) have a history of not waiting for government or the other guy to tackle problems, but rather of reaching into their own pockets to fund down-to-earth co-operative research into matters of immediate interest. It is a matter of pride to be leaders, not followers. A few years back, the Southern Alberta Beekeepers started a project to evaluate the effectiveness of feeding protein supplements in real-world conditions. We have had the good fortune to have Medhat working for Alberta Agriculture, and the support of the seed companies who hire pollination, as well as assistance from Global Patties. Medhat took the job on and, with the co-operation and contributions from beekeepers proved that supplementation with simple bee diets works. We had been wondering if we were wasting our time and money, but the benefits of simple diets was proven, quantified to an extent, and some additional discoveries made. In the process or making enquiries around the continent, when we were stating up the project, we stimulated interest in diets in a number of parties, one of which came up with a secret formula and is currently marketing an upscale product that claims to be the bee-all and end-all, and vastly superior to anything else. We have had samples of that product from the beginning and found significant problems with the earlier versions, but, since these studies, done right, take a year or years, cannot comment on the current version being sold, other than it is relatively costly and has not proven -- to this point, in our tests -- measurably better than BeePro/sugar, or yeast/soy/sugar combinations with or without added pollen. Recently, since Global got involved and reinvented the pollen patty with a rectangular shape, paper top and bottom for easy, mess-free handling, and holes for bee access, Mann Lake has followed Mike's design improvement, added pollen to their BeePro patties and also dropped their prices. This advance, along with the availability of Global's high quality, low cost products which are available as either stock formulas as tested by Medhat, or custom-made to the buyer's specifications and made up using any of the popular bee feeds (including BeePro) has been a big benefit to the industry. In the interest of full disclosure, I do consulting for Global, and they are good friends. I'm not associated with Mann Lake, but have a good opinion of them and their products. * * * > From: Medhat Nasr > To: allen dick > Subject: Re: Yeast for Bee Feed, etc. > > Just a quick note. You need to store the yeast or pollen in freezer to > maintain the nutritional value. I recall that first year we did test diets > in Alberta. I found one diet was not doing any good. After talking to the > beekeeper I found that yeast was stored in honey house and it lost its > value. --- Thanks Medhat I appreciate your reminder, and am sharing it with the others I found that a very interesting and important observation, and one which confirmed what we have always suspected, but had not seen proven. I was surprised that the effect was so very obvious in your results I remember the meeting where you were first presenting your initial results of feeding various patties to the beekeepers involved in the study. All the various patty recipes -- pollen, sugar, soy, and yeast (and one set with BeePro instead of the yeast and soy) -- had shown similar increases in brood (compared to control hives with no patties) but that one set of patties had been no better than the controls. When you asked the one beekeeper who had *no* brood increase from feeding patties what he had done different, he said he had made his own patties using the same yeast/soy/pollen/sugar recipe,used in the ones made by Global that the others used, in order to save a little cash since he had the supplies on hand. He also said the yeast and soy he used had been sitting in his warehouse for a while, a year or more. That was a huge Ah Ha! moment for all of us. I recall that you reported that the bees ate his patties at the same rate as the fresh patties, but that the brood production on those hives did not differ from the controls (no patties), whereas the hives fed fresh patties (same formula) and the BeePro patties had very positive increases in brood, that were effectively identical to one another. We have always known that pollen loses its attractiveness and nutrients quickly under any storage conditions, even if freezing does greatly slow the process, but seeing this same problem with soy and yeast stored at ambient temperatures is another thing. This knowledge is very important, since oftentimes beekeepers have leftover material at the end of the feeding season and wind up using it the next year, or a pallet gets stuck behind other things in the warehouse or left at a remote site and forgotten for a year or two. Some bee supply stores, due to low volume of sales and unpredictability of demand, have inventory on hand for a year -- or more -- before the beekeeper buys it. This accidental discovery you made proves how important "just in time" delivery and careful matching of supply orders to immediate needs can be. I am convinced that many beekeepers, especially smaller ones, who mix up their own feed are often unknowingly wasting money and effort, and *losing the brood production they seek*, since at least some of their supplies have been sitting in various hot warehouses on the way to them, and because some product is almost always left over and used a year later. Larger beekeepers who buy direct from the factories are more certain to have fresh product, however the logistics within their own operation, especially when migratory or spread over several locations, can result in pallets of supplements and supplies being lost in the shuffle for months and even years, or being wasted due to changes in plans. This loss of efficacy after storage is precisely why Global has a policy of not keeping product or supplies on hand and longer than absolutely necessary, irradiating for sterility to prevent bee disease and spoilage, then refrigerating pollen until use, and also of ensuring that outgoing truckloads of patties are distributed promptly to the end users. I have always figured a few months of storage has negligible effect, since the components (yeast and soy) are shipped at ambient temperature and not marked perishable, and some time necessarily elapses in transit and deployment, but am sure that storage longer than a few months must result in *some* loss of efficacy, whether measurable or not. I suspect three months is okay, but would like proof. Basically, I wonder how fast protein foods deteriorate at room temp. I imagine that some nutritional components (amino acids, vitamins) fade faster than others, and that the presence of heat and moisture must hasten the decline in nutritional value, but that the presence of sugar may mitigate this somewhat. Apparently this is the case in pollen storage, when using alternating layers of sugar and pollen, but I really don't know. There should be lots of detailed information available on the web, but so far I have not found it. Maybe your contacts in the Alberta Agriculture Food Lab work with this all the time and can give us some details, and guidelines? Could you ask, or point me to the appropriate persons? allen ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 15:30:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Supersedure is an Old Problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline * Every year I hear people say that queen supersedure is "worse than ever". This problem, however, has been with us for decades and the following, found in an old bee journal from 1937, offers some good advice: > Most all supersedures are caused by *abnormal conditions*. Some causes of abnormal conditions are: Improper handling, lack of pollen and nectar, the weather, etc. > When a package of bees is received , the bees should be fed all the warm sugar syrup they will take; at least two ten-pound pails of the above mentioned syrup should be placed above them and covered up with some packing that will keep them warm. > The next most important things is to *leave them alone* for about two weeks; then if the weather is nice, one may refill the cans. The feed cans should be kept on the bees until there is a surplus coming from the field. > The above method of feeding is much better than giving frames of honey. With the above preparation the weather will not interfere with their activity; the queen will soon be laying at full capacity, and they are just one happy family. A couple of months later this comment was printed: > I am glad you quoted Mr. Burleson who seems to believe that early supersedure is due to carelessness on the part of the beekeeper receiving a package. > I have received packages for 15 years and have had no trouble with supersedure. I get my bees from a good producer. I have seen packages that go bow-wow and try to supersede and I am sure it was not the fault of the receiver. The queens were not good: the breeder used old larvae, chilled the queen or treated it just plain rough or careless all the way from the egg to the package. -- pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 13:34:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Jeffery_Reader?= Subject: Re: candle making Comments: To: Lloyd Spear Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyds got it right. I make over 200 candles a year. Polyurethane is the only way to go. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 20:28:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: candle making MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Everyone, Sounds like experience has shown that the metal is more difficult to use = then the rubber. How long does it take to cool and reuse the mould? = Also, how much are people willing to pay? I was thinking for the 8" or = 10" taper moulds. Maybe people have better success with other styles?=20 Kent ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 21:58:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: candle making Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 1 Apr 2007 20:28:10 -0400, Kent Stienburg wrote: Also, how much are people willing to pay? I was thinking for the 8" or 10" taper moulds. Maybe people have better success with other styles? We get $4.00 each for 10" tapers retail or 2 for $7.00. Seems like there is hardly any competition for 100% beeswax candles in most large metro areas. Doing a 3", 6" and 9" by 3" diameter pillar are good selling sizes. You'll want to experiement with wicks going from a taper to pillar. Match up the right wick to the volume of wax. I'm surprised by the small number of players in the poly candle mold business in the US. Its pretty much CandleWic and Mann Lake and a long list of smaller suppliers with the same style. Mann Lake will make custom molds too but not cheap. Does anyone have any other good sources for poly molds of "traditional" candle styles from Europe or elsewhere? Looking for something different. Also who knows the techniques used for making these "hand dripped" style of candles made by this unique craftsman in Canada? http://philoxia.com/Pheylonian_Catalogue.pdf hows about a triple wicked 7.5” x 22” candle for $549.00 !!!!!!!!!! I must be in the wrong business producing honey. but you have to admire this guy for the breadth of beeswax candles he produces. some of the most interesting I have seen anywhere. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 23:23:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Jeffery_Reader?= Subject: Re: candle making Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The tapers cool quickly. I’ve never paid much attention to how long but thing I can make 4 tapers/hour from each mold. Larger molds take longer. I make 3” pillars and they take hours to cool. Jeff Reader ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 18:09:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Funding Request to Study CCD, Pollinators MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: CATCH THE BUZZ Funding Request to Study CCD, Pollinators "Washington, DC - U.S. Representative Alcee L. Hastings (D-Miramar) this = week introduced H.R. 1709, the Pollinator Protection Act, legislation = authorizing over $75 million in funding for sustained research of the = accelerated mysterious loss of honey bee colonies throughout the nation. = The Pollinator Protection Act aims to combat the phenomenon known as = Colony Collapse Disorder, which currently threatens more than one-third = of all crops grown in the United States. "'This is a problem that not many people know about, but we all need to = be concerned about,' said Representative Hastings today. "If we want = our grandchildren to have food to eat that was grown in this nation, = then something needs to be done about Colony Collapse Disorder. = Otherwise, most citizens won't be able to afford the scarce agricultural = products that will be produced in our nation without honey bee = pollination." "Honey bees contribute well over $15 billion in added va lue to American = agriculture. Researchers and farmers warn that if Colony Collapse = Disorder continues, then its current impact on honey bee colony numbers = and America's food security could be significantly destabilized. "The Pollinator Protection Act authorizes $5.25 million over three years = for Colony Collapse Disorder research; $50 million over five years for = U.S. Department of Agriculture research grants to investigate specific = causes of Colony Collapse Disorder and develop other research on the = factors contributing to the general decline of pollinators in North = America; and $20 million to ensure that USDA has the necessary staff and = facilities to conduct this essential research.=20 "Bees are critical players in our ecosystem. They enhance our way of = life, whether we realize it or not," Representative Hastings noted. "If = we do not act now, Colony Collapse Disorder will have a stinging impact = on America's agriculture industry and our stan dard of living." ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 21:16:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Re: candle making MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks everyone, Nice to tap into all that knowledge and experience. Saves me from going down my usual path of hard knocks :) Kent ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 23:43:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Bee Nutrition Again In-Reply-To: <008401c77493$d395e8a0$0202a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen, Regarding fresh pollen - the bees themselves obviously have adopted a method that allows for the storage over a period of time. Would be interesting to have information on the nutritional levels of fresh pollen as collected by bees, that which has just undergone fermentation in the comb and again that after storage from autumn and is to be used for brood production in the following spring. One individual in France - Patrick Percie du Sert, if I remember correctly found that his pollen for retail sale was conserved when packed in an atmosphere of gaseous nitrogen. Presumably this restricted oxidation of the different "components". Buy a bag of Crisps (Chips)- and they too are conserved in what I presume is a gas protecting against oxidation. Many products are now dealt in the similar manner - Polyfilla, fruits come to mind. Products come with a Best before date / sell by date and a recognized list of components. The purchaser knows what he/she is getting and when it should be used by. Beekeepers have the problem in accurately indicating what the nutritional needs for bees actually are. Granted this is now being investigated and answers are coming on line. There appears to be many recipes (ranging from the level of good old snake oil to those that one would put some trust in). I would wish to see the following indicated on the pack of any product being sold as Pollen substitute: Date of Manufacture Best before date List of recognized ingredients and a unit (international scientific unit) of quantity present per kilo of product as present in the package at date of manufacture. List of nutrients as supplied by the ingredients present in the package - again indicating quantities present. If this information was backed up by widely recognized knowledge of what a colony of honey bees requires to generate one frame of successful brood - then objectives could be calculated for. Natural pollen is available on the market for purchase by beekeepers. A common request is for it to have been irradiated to limit the transfer of brood disease. I have a concern relating to the source of the pollen and the phyto sanitary regime of the plants from which the pollen was collected. Are pollens tested to ensure that they are free from pesticide contamination before being used as a supply for bee nutrition? The regimes that are present in some countries would indicate that this is a limited risk if product labels have been followed by farmers - but in other jurisdictions that are more lax regarding application times and procedures as well as the use of compounds that are not universally recognized lead me to ask if lower cost may result in running a risk. Realizing that this mail is a rambling affair - but electronic conversations are better than nothing. Regards, Peter PS: Snow today, with temps down to -15 C. forecast for the next few days. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 23:47:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: CCD In-Reply-To: <000901c77409$74cbf600$0cbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would some kind soul supply me with the answer to the following: Has CCD been recognized or suspected as being present in the country of Mexico? Ta, Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 08:30:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: The backlash starts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Germany. The mystery of the disappearing honey bees in not confined to the US. German beekeepers say the insects have been dying off since 2002. A parasite is getting some of the blame but the exact cause is unknown. One researcher blames some beekeepers for hyping the problem to cover up bad luck or bad beekeeping. < from: (video clip) "Around The World in 80 Seconds" The FOX Report ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:35:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bee Nutrition Again In-Reply-To: <4611DB7D.9020805@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon wrote: > > Regarding fresh pollen - the bees themselves obviously have adopted a > method that allows for the storage over a period of time. There may be other factors, but glucose oxidase is certainly a big one. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:19:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: globe and mail article In-Reply-To: AA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Abbas Edun (edun99@YAHOO.COM) reports the Toronto globe and mail had an article on CCD. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070402.wxbees02/BNS tory/Science/home ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:12:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have no survey reports of CCD in Mexico. We do have reports from western and eastern Canada, although these have no been verified by inspection/sampling. Jerry ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:18:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: globe and mail article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:19:49 -0400, Aaron Morris wrote: >Abbas Edun (edun99@YAHOO.COM) reports the Toronto globe and mail had an >article on CCD. > >http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070402.wxbees02/BNS >tory/Science/home I nominate that article for the a http://frogstar.soylentgeek.com/wav/twilzone.wav award, although it was not as gross as some. Read Doug Mcrory's (below) report first and then the globe and mail article. In the opening paragraphs of the G&M article the fantasy begins with the reporter claiming 3X average losses while Doug suggesting it increased from an average of 18% to a suspected 25-30% province wide, not even twice the average? I also was amused by the Canadian researcher quoted as saying "It's an absolute catastrophe in the U.S.," said Peter Kevan, a professor who specializes in bees in the department of environmental biology at Ontario's Guelph University" Who knows the context of what that chap really said? (maybe the rest of his quote included something like "for some individuals"?) Quite a contastrophe when we just completed the CA almond pollination, albeit by a reported slim margin, but this type of "Jerry Springer-izing " of bee losses is becoming a standard practice. Right below that mention of catastophe its stated that I am apperently in one of the most affected northern states Mn. Oh my god run for the hills its closing in any day now!! The inset map has some juicy headlines too, amped up with words like sudden, unexplained, massive but at least they did mention breifly that the existance of the disorder is still disputed So now we also have a Canadian Map of Canadian Provinces Experiencing Massive Die Offs. Its every where and nowhere at apperently the same time according to the article? I'm curious as a northern stationary beekeeper how would a wintered over colony exerience CCD? Apperently the bees would fly away during cold and snowy weather and one finds nothing in the hive in spring? Not only are the bees disoriented but could have a sudden death wish to leave the hive and fly out into temps even well below zero? No dead bees on the bottom board left? Really? we have reported cases of this? My sense is the credible cases occured in fall/early winter and in southern or wam climes. Of course for political reasons its nice to "package" some problems and losses into one story to get fed funds and I'm not denying this is not a good idea, thats the way America system works I guess. Perhaps we have the real CCD concerns and like the White House the story we tell the reporters or policy wonks? Report on Winter Losses of Honey bee Colonies in Ontario 2007 By Doug McRory March 30, 2007 Normal winter losses of honey bees in Ontario since we have had mites have settled out at about 18%. This season several beekeepers in an area from St. Thomas in the west to Niagara in the east are reporting losses around 50-60% with one as high as 90%. There is a line south of the 401 where if the bees are south of the line the losses are more sever than north of the line. As Provincial Apiarist, I have been expecting higher winter losses this season than normal. I expect the loss to be in the 25-30% range across the province. This is due to the fall conditions where there was not a strong honey flow in August and September to stimulate brood production which would result in baby bees to form a good winter cluster. The affected area in Niagara and Haldimand-Norfolk was even worse for depressing conditions last fall. Beekeepers reported very small clusters of bees going into fall. The fall stayed warm and these small clusters of bees just dwindled away. In these colonies we do not find even any dead bees. All of the bees are gone. The fall weather was very mild and true winter weather did not set in until mid January. The bees tried raising baby bees (brood). It then turned very cold for about six weeks. Once the bees have started a brood nest with brood, they will not leave it even to get food reserves that may be one or two combs away from them. There is a large number of colonies that have died for this reason. As Provincial Apiarist, I do not believe that we have the CCD – Colony Collapse Disorder that the beekeepers of United States are experiencing. We do not have Small Hive Beetles in Ontario. We do not move the bees as much or over the great distances that they do in the United States. We do not have many of the other possible conditions that are suspected of causing the losses in United States. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 14:48:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: CCD on PBS tonight, The Newshour with Jim Lehrer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kate from the program called to tell me their story runs about 10 minutes long, will be on this evening's program about 30 minutes in. A longer HD version (runs close to 30 minutes) will also be produced. And before everyone jumps on the bandwagon picking apart whatever they show, remember, TV news does what they want, from the spin on the story to who they put in a room, or interview. I'll be interested in seeing what they come up with - hoping for a well balanced story from PBS. Jerry ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 19:29:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Bee Nutrition Again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/04/2007 12:07:52 GMT Standard Time, pdillon1@MTS.NET writes: Regarding fresh pollen - the bees themselves obviously have adopted a method that allows for the storage over a period of time. Peter, Would the honey portion of bee bread be producing a modicum of O3 and if so would it help preserve the pollen content from attack from bacteria or fungi? Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 18:48:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Smith Subject: Re: Bee Nutrition Again In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pollen-Bee Bread nutrition values: Does anyone know if NIR spectroscopy can be used to analyze bee products? I do lots of research plot forage, grain, etc analysis--seems to me a easy answer if there are really questions... Jim Smith State of Jefferson And the Klamath Basin Water Wars (Woes) http://www.klamathbasincrisis.org/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 21:55:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Bee Nutrition Again In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, Where did you get the thought that Ozone gas would be being produced - am I lacking another piece of knowledge ? Maybe you are just too close to the Heritage coast of Dorset and are getting a whiff of that thare fresh sal-ty sea air. Peter PS: Really miss the pints of Royal Oak ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 11:08:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Varroa in South Africa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby > for it says alot about keeping bees > naturally and not freaking out at any little thing seen But surely we are talking about scutellata and capensis here - are they not known to be more resistant to varroa? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 11:57:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Funding Request to Study CCD, Pollinators Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 2 Apr 2007 18:09:59 -0400, Aaron Morris wrote: >From: CATCH THE BUZZ > >Funding Request to Study CCD, Pollinators > >"Washington, DC - U.S. Representative Alcee L. Hastings (D-Miramar) this week introduced H.R. 1709, the Pollinator Protection Act, legislation authorizing over $75 million in funding for sustained research of the accelerated mysterious loss of honey bee colonies throughout the nation. I wrote an email to Mr Hastings commending him on his proposed legislation and encouraging him to also do something to get honey included under the USDA Country Of Origin Labeling (COOL) requirements. I noted that this would potentially benefit the US honey market and make beekeeping more economically sustainable and therefore increase the number of hives. I encourage other like minds to write him. He is from Florida which is one of the few states which has state COOL requirements for honey, so perhaps he is familiar with the situation. http://alceehastings.house.gov/IMA/issue.htm ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:45:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Going up! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BULLETIN FROM CPNA INTERNATIONAL Our international trade lawyer in Washington, D.C. informed us that on April 2nd the major exporter of Chinese honey will have a duty increase from 22% to 212%, which must be paid in cash. For your reference, this decision was expedited from the due date at the end of April, after a formal complaint was launched to the D.O.C. that there was what is legally called "changed circumstances". The D.O.C. determined that there was an "extraordinary surge of honey exports" from China to the U.S.=20 As a consequence, the D.O.C. expedited the imposition of the 212% cash duty rate effective April 2nd. As a result, at least 2 million pounds of honey, that was about to be shipped to the U.S. from Chinese ports, was withdrawn and the shipments cancelled under these force majeur conditions. The impact on the honey market is obvious. Not only is the supply of white honey tightening and prices rising, but maintaining quality parameters will face new challenges.=20 The decision was formally published in the Federal Register on April 2nd, 2007. This situation regarding Chinese honey exports has been clarified and the ambiguity has been eliminated.=20 >From Ron Phipps, President CPNA International ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 12:55:36 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: CCD on PBS NewsHour With Jim Lehrer (Archived) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you missed it, the PBS 10-minute long report on CCD can be found in archive form, including both audio and video formats here: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/environment/jan-june07/bees_04-03.html If they take it down (very unlikely) I will put up the copy I grabbed here: http://bee-quick.com/ccd/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 22:07:32 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Bee Nutrition Again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Products come with a Best before date / sell by date and a recognized list > of components. The purchaser knows what he/she is getting and when it > should be used by.I would wish to see the following indicated on the pack > of any product being sold as Pollen substitute: Great ideas, Peter! Thanks. I think you will see this coming soon to a reliable product in your neighbourhood. BTW, anyone who can use a truckload (40,000 lbs) of protein patties or can share with friends -- or enemies-- should drop me a line. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 11:01:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Rob_Termeer?= Subject: Re: globe and mail article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings from eastern Ontario, Canada Not to bad of an article (GlobeandMail) but some conflicting numbers on pollination values and losses but that's typical of reporting. I am somewhat doubtful of Doug McRory's assessment and his Report of the situation in Ontario. I think Mr McRory had better not downplay or overlook Varroa (or HTM) and the associated proliferation of otherwise tolerable bee pathogens/viruses, PMS-(parasitic mite syndrome ), as being a potential if not the likely major underlying factor in Ontario's losses. >From what I have read I conject that these factors appear to be the main causes of many of the US losses as well. Some individual US cases or groups/regions are apparently very peculiar and may be chemical or pesticide related, or a new "CCD"--yet to be determined, or perhaps related to the impact of enviromental forage shortages in some cases, possibly accelerating a collapse as explained below. But what's all that compared to a few weeks of solid cold, but not extreme, winter weather, eh? Prov. Apiarist Doug McRory's report indicates to me Fall symptoms common to the Varroa/PMS collapse that I have gone through to varying degrees beginning in fall/winter 2000/01at 25% with the most severe loss of 70%...750 dead of 1100, occurring in 2002/03. With the late Fall the colonies in southern Ont., if healthy, should have brooded later but instead dwindled. These bees should have recovered on fall feeding. Think about what you wrote Doug. Seriously! I surely expect that more information gathering is in progress in Ontario so we will see what comes out over time. I am very curious as to what stock and mite management systems are/were being used where major losses occurred. How many of them did pollination down east? Were the losses in single or double brood chambers? Lots of questions need answers yet although I'm sure Doug is aware of much that just didn't make it to his short summary. I know I would find that kind of information to be very important. However, a poor honey/pollen flow can be a major factor in colony strength as suggested, especially in the Fall, but basic management should be able to compensate somewhat for those factors, feed and patties. In relation to this and the southern Ont losses, I might add/suggest that even at moderate varroa levels a major cutback in the brood nest, be it natural Fall reduction or a dirth of incoming resources, is the potential prelude to a collapse due to the increase in mites to brood ratio. Even so the tipping point for a serious impact seems to be directly related to the presence and proliferation of secondary afflictions, (like DWV for 1), which seem to play a major role when a varroa related collapse occurs. To me the winter was relatively easy in the south half of Ontario and normal colonies should be fine. I have lots of good colonies but also 2 yards almost wiped out and a few locations weak at 50%. Surely some in southern Ontario had good winterings. Same weather as their neighbours! I also saw some of what Doug described with colonies starving beside frames of honey. But why had their clusters dwindled to a point that made them susceptible to this effect. I went from 132 dead at Feb 22 to 207 now, 25% total out from 850. Some of these later ones starved or were to small to survive the cold of late Feb early March. Essentially they were lacking a critical mass of bees. If you want to skip the other factors that led to these reduced clusters, then yeh, the weather killed them. I have had more experience than I care for in these matters but my data is not scientific. However, I have seen and learned alot being on the frontline with the US border here in eastern Ontario. For me the losses kind of spread like a wave from south to north over the years and I wouldn't be surprised if next year southern Ont. losses hit north of highway 401 in the coming Fall/Winter. CCD symptom descriptions don't seem to be much different than my own experiences. I can't tell about the not- robbing factor though. Mine have all been fall/winter collapses and seem to be directly related to some varroa build ups with PMS as treatment resistent-mites (1st Apistan almost immediately followed by Coumaphos) infiltrated from New York state.There doesn't appear to be anything different about my losses this year. I have often thought that my major losses were far to uniform (whole yards wiped out) to be solely the result of Varroa populations. I wonder if some Varroa populations may actually have become carriers of some virus(es), akin to mosquitos and the West Nile virus, or are the mites simply a catalyst/vector for what is already present? These and other questions are serious to all and especially anyone with major losses in both the US and Canada but it is certainly not "an absolute catastrophe in the US" as Peter Kevan of Guelph U. is quoted in the Globe article. What is it with some people(canadians)that try and make the Americans look bad with misinformation. Maybe the reporter took the quote out of context but I doubt it. We are fortunate in Canada for the opportunity to learn from the US's experiences all through this blight brought on by the mites. The infiltration of the US bee industry by these foreign 'invasive' species (Varroa, HTM) progressed quicker in the US for a number of reasons and that has given us in Canada a chance to learn a lot. Simplistic bottomline, miteloads need to be minimal to avoid flareups of secondary pathogens. Unknown conditions may lead to flareups even at normally acceptable mite levels. We must continue to find and validate solutions for success through hive management technics, additional safe mite controls, and ongoing selective breeding programs so that all branches of the industry might find solutions for mite control that are compatible with or adaptable to the variety of climates and individual operational specialties, ie. honey-prod., pollination, Queen & bee suppliers, etc....that vary across N. America. Another variable is Nosema Cerana which I read was detected in some US samples. I'm not sure if it is conclusive but apparently this strain of nosema is much more virulent and serious in it's effect. If I remember correctly fumagillin will control it. Also, HTM is always lingering as I saw when all my 100 Italians from KONA in 2003 died during the winter of 2004/05 with the characteristic dumping of irritated bees midwinter which would perhaps just disappear in more moderate climates. No such trend in the 200 KONA Carniolans of the same year. Formic was not in my treatment regime at the time. Today I am totally relying on the 2 acids (Oxalic,Formic) since I now have varroa resistent to both Apistan and Coumaphos and chemical wise I prefer the acids if I can get sufficient control to stay in business. It would be prudent to have another reliable alternative treatment in Canada (Hivastan?). I've stabalized at 20 to 30% loss the last 3 springs with lots of good bees but always have a few locations essentially wiped out. I'm not sure yet if the acids alone will provide sufficiently consistent control. I might have to try adding screened bottomboards. This resistence very clearly came across the St. Lawrence river from New York which I am told is where Mr Hackenburg-migratory beekeeper, keeps some hives in the summer. No blame intended here as business must go on but the industry and individuals should be very conscious of the impact that migratory outfits might have on locals and vice versa. I was somewhat shocked though when I read on Bee-Line that it is common practice for the migratory outfits to purposefully leave there old field bees behind when heading south for the winter. To me that practice may have had little impact on others in pre- mite days but with today's state of beekeeping in N. America my logic finds this to be a seriously questionable practice (also a public safety issue) unless done in a very isolated area. For those who use that practice, and should it be shown/known to have a real negative impact on locals, then I would place some level of responsibility on migrators to try to limit this impact and I have to asks what is the benefit and importance/necessity of this step? This did provide a possible reason in part ( just speculating) for why my south end bees along the St. Lawrence river have suffered greater losses than other areas of my outfit and perhaps why many ailments present in the eastern states seem to show up in my bees within a year or two. Still no beetles or African bees willing to risk getting caught up here for the winter. :) Anyway, just a few thoughts for you all to consider. Take care, Rob T. (45'N 75'W) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 22:02:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Now if Odor is required by bees - then is this the cause of CCD In-Reply-To: <46131392.5060606@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hoping to help shed light onto a thorny topic. Maybe killing two birds with one stone! http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/mg19425984.300?DCMP=NLC-nletter&nsref=mg19425984.300 Happy Easter Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 21:07:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Varroa in South Africa In-Reply-To: <002101c776a1$384ad8f0$cfc66a58@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter: - are they not known to be more resistant to varroa? Reply: having people there I have corresponded with over the years I would say that they are only more resistant to varroa until placed into a modern upsized management system, which then starts the process for maladies and constant watching. You see there is difference between the wild natural and then man kept artificial system. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 14:36:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: globe and mail article/ Greetings from Canada posting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In reply to Rob T et al: I trust that you initially contacted Doug and received a reply before posting your diatribe on the state of our beekeeping here. Figures I will not quote, but I can say this, that we here in Canada are fortunate to have a system amongst us which has allowed us to put in place solutions for the problems we encounter and that works on solution for impending situations. To mention a few--the likes of Winston, Szabo,Nasr, Guszman, McRory, OBA techtransfer team et al in government and research have collectively given us the tools and legislation to counter the main problems that we face. Those who use these tools will have an easier time that those who do not. The proper use of the tools along with a good knowledge of beekeeping is called management. Problems are created OR compounded by mismanagement -( neglect/irresponsibility, stupidity, or greed). Then the variables become so great that time becomes the key factor. CCD has too many variables. Man is his own destiny. Walter Ontario ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 15:21:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: globe and mail article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Rob & All, Excellent post Rob with many points I agree with! Despite what many would like to believe most of the causes for CCD are contained in what has been found so far. I would keep the advance virus work going and the pesticide/ chemical comb work but we need to move on. I watched the CNN Ag committee hearings yesterday (3/29/2007). I personally would have used a different approach to the CCD problem . Simply SSDD is not an answer. Education is the answer! I would have suggested setting up a package of testing equipment. Electron microscope etc.so each commercial beekeeper could do his own testing. I would provide the same for every bee club and train at least one member of each club to run the tests. The cost would be small compared to what has been proposed. I would set up training in all states starting with the states hardest hit with CCD. In order to get the $1500-2000 worth of free testing equipment commercial beekeeping operations & clubs would need to send at *least* one person to attend the classes. At the classes all the information about what has been found *so far* on CCD will be shared. Methods to control European foulbrood, fungus, nosema, varroa, tracheal mites etc. will be taught. Tell stress in hives! When to replace comb and what is known about virus will be shared. In short we have found plenty of things in those CCD deadouts! No smoking gun so lets start helping beekeepers by teaching beekeepers to eliminate each problem one by one and I believe through educating beekeepers many will get a hand on the CCD problem. Giving the largest beekeepers money to do the SSDD is generous ( and I think a good idea at least once) but does not address the real issue. Building new research facilities is a neat idea also. I question what they can be used for after all the commercial beekeepers have went bankrupt ? When was the last time you went back and looked at the documentation concerning the spread of tracheal mites, varroa mites, SHb or any other pest. All that documentation is in some file in a drawer gathering dust. Life is about going forward! Not looking back! Also hives coming out of California look great! Beekeepers in Texas have had to ask for extra equipment to make splits! Many beekeepers are not seeing anything even close to CCD. In a phone conversation with Jerry Hayes a few weeks ago Jerry shared: " the largest beekeeper in Florida seems unaffected but he is on top of varroa and other bee diseases". What part of being on top of the known problems do we not understand? Commercial beeping is not getting easier. Its getting harder. If you run over a 100 hives of bees and have not bought a microscope yet and learned to test your hives for the many things the CCD team has found in those deadouts or if you simply treat your hives for varroa when ever you get around to it without any idea of varroa load then your days in beekeeping could be numbered. I see educating beekeepers as step one in solving the current die off. If funding could be arranged I would have the above plan in place by August. Four months should be plenty of time. I would volunteer my time to train Missouri beekeepers.I bet Tim Tucker would train Kansas beekeepers? Maybe Randy Oliver would do California? Maybe David Hackenburg Pennsylvania? Lets get a real plan going to save beekeeping. Bob "I take care of the bees and the bees take care of me!" from the movie about Ulee Jackson with Peter Fonda. . -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 15:49:04 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: globe and mail article/ Greetings from Canada posting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I trust that you initially contacted Doug and received a reply before > posting your diatribe on the state of our beekeeping here. di·a·tribe - Pronunciation: 'dI-&-"trIb - Function: noun Etymology: Latin diatriba, from Greek diatribE pastime, discourse, from diatribein to spend (time), wear away, from dia- + tribein to rub -- more at THROW 1 archaic : a prolonged discourse 2 : a bitter and abusive speech or writing 3 : ironic or satirical criticism I am assuming you meant that in the archaic sense? The more contemporary meanings would not seem appropriate. At any rate, I, for one, did appreciate Rob's contribution, especially knowing about his tribulations with losses in the past, and his lack of bitterness. I hope to hear more from him. Certainly, though, that was a long epistle, covering a lot of ground, and could have made three or four good posts (hint, hint) > Figures I will not quote, but I can say this, that we here in Canada are > fortunate to have a system amongst us which has allowed us to put in place > solutions for the problems we encounter and that works on solution for > impending situations. Unfortunately, for Rob, this proved not to be the case,. The "system" actually did him a lot of harm, and frankly, in the free part of Canada, at least, many of us think that the "system" you mention accomplishes its task of ensuring *bee* health -- to the extent it does -- by impoverishing *beekeepers* or slowly forcing them out of business by cutting them off from opportunity. The obvious proof, to anyone who will look, is that in Canada, wherever regulation is least, the industry is growing, but in the areas where regulation is greatest, the industry has been in a long contraction. > To mention a few--the likes of Winston, Szabo,Nasr, Guszman, McRory, OBA > techtransfer team et al in government and research have collectively given > us the tools and legislation to counter the main problems that we face. I applaud and recognise the research and extension work, but decry the legislation that is opressive, excessively universal and, at this point, largely useless for the purposes claimed for it. IMO it amounts to legal illegal restraint of trade. There is too much of that in Canada. The Wheat Board is finally getting its oppressive powers diminished, maybe this will signal a turn? Unfortunately no one -- so far -- has had the money or guts to take Canada's outrageous bee legislation to court. Maybe some US organisation will do it for us? > CCD has too many variables. To date, many possibilities have been discussed, but the jury is still out. At this point, we oughtn't IMO confuse speculation with fact. many people who have not had CCD are thinking they have. from what I hear, it is unmistakable. I'm fairly sure that, knowing Jerry, we'll get an answer, and not necesarily one we expect. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 22:11:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: globe and mail article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob great post....even if CCD turned out to be something new, it would appear to me that great gains could be had quickly by getting US beekeepers on the same page in terms of basic honey bee health. To give further credibility to your advice on educating beekeepers and improving overall bee health, see what Marla Spivak says in a recent article called Why are Honeybees Collapsing? posted on the U of M Entomology Dept. website. http://www.extension.umn.edu/honeybees/components/03-26-2007_whycollapsing.html please note: she advertises a new online educational course they will be offering called "Healthy Bees". ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 00:16:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: MRH Subject: Listen online: CCD piece on the radio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Below is a link to listen to an 8 minute piece on Colony Collapse Disorder. broadcast on Friday, April 6 on a radio magazine in the Washington, DC area called Metro Connection, WAMU 88.5 FM. Please let me know your reaction. Is it accurate? Effective? Here is the description to the piece from WAMU's website: Colony Collapse Disorder One day you peer into the hive and all is well. On your next visit, all that's left of a thriving colony are the queen and a handful of bees around her. Last week, the House Agriculture Subcommittee on Horticulture and Organic Agriculture had a hearing on the latest threat to our pollinating bee population, "CCD," or Colony Collapse Disorder. There's still a lot of mystery surrounding CCD, but area beekeepers have been keeping a close watch on their hives. I met Marc Hoffman with the Montgomery County Beekeepers Association at Brookside Nature Center in Wheaton. Standing next to a group of hives run by the Association, we talked about what "CCD" might mean for the region's pollinators. Here are the links to the CCD piece: Real Audio: http://www.wamu.org/audio/mc/07/04/m1070406-14772.ram Windows Media Player: http://www.wamu.org/audio/mc/07/04/m1070406-14772.asx Here is a previous piece on beekeeping broadcast in January 2007, about 11 minutes: Real Audio: http://www.wamu.org/audio/mc/07/01/m1070119-13054.ram Windows Media Player: http://www.wamu.org/audio/mc/07/01/m1070119-13054.asx The homepage for the show is http://wamu.org/programs/mc/ Marc Hoffman ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 00:13:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: globe and mail article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian & All, The response in the last few hours has been huge! I am humbled! I have had offers of three dissecting microscopes and a compound microscope to use to train in my area! Two trained professionals have offered to help with microscope training. We might not need a lot of funding as the large clubs in my area can easily afford all the test equipment and getting approval can be had by contacting a majority of the board members. I believe most large commercial operators could afford the test equipment and many already have scopes but simply are not trained or the scopes are in the backroom gathering dust ( like the scope of a close friend!). An online course by Marla is an excellent idea. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 06:40:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Fresh Pollen Offers Best Therapeutic and Nutritional Benefits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII The Probiotic Effect of Rock Rose Pollen Frozen in a Fresh State Prof. Jost Dustmann (Germany) Presented at: 5th German Apitherapy Congress, March 23-25, 2007, Passau, Germany SEE: http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/04/fresh-pollen-offers-best-therapeutic.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 09:46:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Rob_Termeer?= Subject: Re: globe and mail article/ Greetings from Canada posting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Walter My submission began as a wintering report to Doug and a comment on both his Report and the G&M article and it was 'sent to him' as such for information purposes. Hardly what you called quote... "your diatribe on the state of our beekeeping here." Seems to me it was mostly about my own experiences and some speculation based on what I have been through and read. I am simply concerned and trying to help since there have been many extraordinary losses in recent years and the fewer that go through that crisis the better. I prefer win-win scenarios. So I made a sarcastic jab about the weather, but I hopefully made a point and I would be glad if I'm wrong. you wrote: >"... but I can say this, that we here in Canada are >fortunate to have a system amongst us which has allowed us to put in place >solutions for the problems we encounter and that works on solution for impending >situations." For the most part I tend to agree with this statement and would even say that Ontario probably has more gov't support for the bee industry from OMAFRA than any other province gets from their agricultural depts.. Doug McRory and his peers have gone to a great deal of effort to assist the industry. That doesn't mean mistakes haven't been made or that I shouldn't question anything. Statistics show that Ontario peaked at 115,000 hives around 1990 to about 75,000 today. That's a pretty significant decline. >The proper use of the tools along with a good knowledge of beekeeping is >called management. Perhaps Walter you could share some of your history, stats and management experiences with us as well, and in what part of Ontario you operate. >Man is his own destiny. Are you sure that's in the Canadian Constitution? :) In light of recent discussions on BeeLine I thought some others would appreciate reading about my experiences since my letter became so much more than what I started. Sorry it came in such a large package....Allen D.! I appreciate the responses and of course, Bob always has some interesting comments and ideas. Thanks. Take care, Rob Termeer Cornwall, Ontario, Canada ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 11:18:31 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: globe and mail article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Despite what many would like to believe most of the causes for > CCD are contained in what has been found so far. The statement above is mere speculation. All that can be said for now is that many mundane things have been >>eliminated<< as possible causes of CCD. The symptoms of CCD are very unique. There are no known pathogens or other problems that cause the specific symptoms being experienced. > I would have suggested setting up a package of testing equipment. Electron > microscope etc. so each commercial beekeeper could do his own testing. You can't have meant to type >>electron microscope< I would provide the same for every bee club and train at least one member > of each club to run the tests. The cost would be small compared to what > has been proposed. I'm not sure how many clubs need their own "lab", given the ease with which one can utilize existing facilities funded under existing programs, such as the USDA ARS Beltsville diagnostic service, described here: http://www.masterbeekeeper.org/B_files/diagnosis.htm > I would set up training in all states starting with the states hardest > hit with CCD. In order to get the $1500-2000 worth of free testing > equipment commercial beekeeping operations & clubs would need to send > at *least* one person to attend the classes. At the classes all the > information about what has been found *so far* on CCD will be shared. This is a fine idea in general, but I don't see how one can predict that a mere $1.5K to $2K worth of lab gear will be of help in looking at a problem that still remains undiagnosed despite the efforts of the "best and the brightest", using the "latest and greatest" gear. Yes, such gear would help in diagnosing the more mundane things that beekeepers have ignored, such as Nosema, but I have advocated the use of cheap plastic "child's" microscopes ($20 or so) for diagnosing nosema for years, but this advice has, for the most part, fallen upon deaf ears. I doubt that providing free gear is going to suddenly motivate people who were so utterly disinterested when the entry cost was a mere $20. As far as dissecting microscopes go, they certainly are neat, but aside from using them to find tracheal mites, what would practical purpose would they serve in disease/pest diagnosis? They certainly are not going to show you nosema spores. Anyway, if your queen supplier sells you queens that are still susceptible to tracheal mites, find a new queen supplier. This is the 21st Century, and anyone selling tracheal-mite susceptible stock is either lazy or incompetent. Anyone who attends EAS can attend a full slate of disease and pest seminars, so the forum for intensive training exists. We have EAS, WAS, and HAS, and while the offerings vary from year to year, they at least provide an existing mechanism to supply the required training, and tend to draw the experts who can lead such workshops, have classroom space, and supply low-cost room and board for attendees. I really think that before anyone holds their hand out for funding to "enhance" our diagnostic abilities, we need to let the diagnostic/research efforts under way produce some results, to give us some hints as to what we need to look for. We don't know what tools we need yet, so "tooling up" is premature. I also have to counsel caution about the utility of expecting beekeepers to take on the "lab work" required. We are, for the most part, a group that still has problems with implementing a simple 3-day natural mite drop surveillance scheme to track varroa populations over time, so I don't have much hope for seeing a sudden change in motivation and attitude sufficient to produce the sort of consistent and precise work needed to do a full slate of tests on a few dozen samples a month. Many samples sent to Beltsville are not properly prepared, making diagnostics more difficult or impossible. This is yet another way to define the abilities of beekeepers in the area of following instructions and "doing lab work". ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 12:21:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Listen online: CCD piece on the radio Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I thought it was a more balanced piece then some we have seen or heard in the media. As has been discussed at length here on BEE-L the exact scope of the losses are difficult to determine as many other losses may be lumped in the the CCD basket. I think the important point to consider now in early April is that it appears that the most credible reports occured in late fall of 06 and early winter of 07. To my knowlegde there are no reports of hives "vacating en masse" in CA during almond pollinaiton or elsewhere in stationary or over wintered hives after beekeepers made spring inspections in March and early April. Perhaps Jerry B can comment on that. The continual drone of the media on this topic woud lead one beleive that this is a phenomenon that is moving quickly and unabated as that worn out US map gets more white space colored in . Since this story has all of the required keywords like, mysterious, unexplained, massive losses, threat, millions disappeared, etc to keep any story alive in todays media I doubt that this story will disappear anytime soon. Perhaps that is a good thing too as we can all help educate the public on the importance of a healthy honeybee industry in the USA. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 12:36:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Microscope - the MiScope MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All I agree with Bob that inspecting your own bees should be part of proper bee management. On the other hand, the response from Bee-Quick was on the mark. A microscope may/may not provide any benefit for dealing with CCD and an electron microscope is a VERY expensive and very fickle piece of hardware. As per CCD, we simply don't know what's causing it. So we and no one else have any way to mitigate or fix it, other than depending on luck. Good beekeeping isn't enough. And you can't select CCD resistant queens - since we don't know what it is. And no, I'm convinced, its not just mites. And sorry Bob, but there are still major CCD collapses occurring across the U.S. Not all of the folks coming back out of CA are thriving -- some got back truckloads of empty boxes. And the newest wave of collapses are occurring in strong colonies in the midst of rapid growth, with lots of nectar/honey, frames of new pollen, 4-5 frames of brood (much of which is capped and apparently healthy), and then the colonies drop to 2-3 frames of bees or less in a matter of a few days. This has been happening in both the east and the west parts of the U.S. over the past month. As per checking your own bees. Again, as Bee-Quick indicated there are many opportunities for training, and if there are none in your area, it should be relatively easy for your local bee association to arrange one. Now for a bit of better news -- I came across a new product, called the MiScope (pronounced My Scope) while at the Ent Soc meetings. This should be of interest to Bee-L members, since its a USB microscope. Plug it into your PC and you can use it, even take pictures and videos with it! We got one and its rather surprising, given the price. Great educational tool - take your own micro-photos. It has a built-in illuminator - we went top drawer and got the white light and infra-red built in, with a UV option. Depth of field is limited, so you have to do some dissection off to the side, then place under the scope. There is a much more expensive version that is a true digital dissection scope. The MiScope is small, it works well for what it was designed for, its not too expensive, and you can capture images at will - even make videos of mites running around. 40-140X magnification. This would be a great alternative to the plastic scopes for getting kids interested in looking at things - beekeepers too. My crew had a great time -- photographing the hooks on the edge of the wings, the pollen basket, etc. And yes, we have access to high end scopes, even electronic microscopes requiring rooms with suppressed vibration, etc. But none were so simple and easy to use and capture images. The MiScope information/ordering is at: _http://www.zarbeco.com/miscope_1a.htm_ (http://www.zarbeco.com/miscope_1a.htm) Finally, we have no connection to this company other than being a satisfied customer. Its not a toy, but a very useful device. If you use it with a laptop in the field, you need a shield for your laptop screen. It can see down into combs, but that's a bit awkward, not its best use. One tip, it self-focuses, and on 3-d surfaces, its takes a bit of time and tends to hunt. At first I thought it was of little use until I learned to give it time to focus after changing magnification. Cheers Jerry ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 11:41:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: globe and mail article/ Greetings from Canada posting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > Statistics show that Ontario peaked at 115,000 hives around 1990 to about 75,000 today. That's a pretty significant decline. In the U.S. the number of colonies peaked in 1947 and have been in a steady decline ever since( Beekeeping in the U.S. no. 335). Numbers of commercial beekeepers have been in steady decline but have really dropped over the last two decades( with both mites and new problems). In private conversation with my friend Randy Oliver we both agree if commercial beekeepers do not embrace quickly to new methods of varroa control, rotating comb and better nutrition for bees then the numbers of commercial beekeepers will take another nose dive. The California almond industry has been the single bright spot in commercial beekeeping in the U.S. over the last decade and perhaps can be credited for prolonging the death of the commercial industry. Despite all the problems with placing a million hives in a small area the pollination money has kept many a commercial beekeeper solvent. Many people believe that with tariffs and other legislation the honey market will somehow be controlled. History shows you plug one loop hole and another opens. Beekeepers have tried to keep honey prices stable in the U.S. as long as I can remember and as history shows has not happened. The price paid for honey is always an unknown element of commercial beekeeping. The best solution for years was interest free CCC loans which gave the beekeeper around nine months to find a buyer without being forced to sell his crop at a lower price in order to pay his bills. The almond industry is willing to throw a huge amount of money at problems beekeepers have got to help our industry. In fact the almond industry provides beekeeping industry help faster than our own government when needed. Quickly responded to the CCD need. Even almond brokers like Mr. Joe Traynor which have set what many of us feel is too high a standard for hives going into almonds ( almond Pollination Handbook) have in the long run been a blessing for the industry as those high standards force beekeepers to take better care of their hives and keep colony strength up by providing better nutrition. In the U.S. our weather people are saying we are going into a period of climate change. The far thinking commercial beekeeper needs to adapt quickly and rethink his/her management plans for the next few years. Drop some yards and perhaps relocate to other areas. Act quicker in the Midwest to build winter bees. If winters start happening like we are in now I am thinking Texas. In my own opinion ( having done both) I believe bees winter better in Texas than California. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 12:28:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: globe and mail article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim & All, I have little time for a drawn out discussion of this issue but I will make a few comments. >The statement above is mere speculation. All that can be said for now is that many mundane things have been >>eliminated<< as possible causes of CCD. The symptoms of CCD are very unique. Maybe but all DEADOUTS are being labeled CCD! I listened to the hearing of 3-29-007 on CNN. Many common problems have been found. From conversations with those involved if you pulled out all the hives which starved, died from varroa & TRACHEAL MITES, most hives tested possitive for European foulbrood, The hives from the Dakotas came out of the worst drought in a 100 years and total crop failure then: How many CCD hives are there? Hello! Reality check! Samples to bee labs has never been the quick answer for the commercial beekeeper. Six weeks is the normal turn around. Most larger beekepers have got a small lab and do tests. Jim seems to think beekeepers are for the most part too stupid to train. A veiw actually told to me by a couple people in the USDA before ( names withheld but not worried as I would never say their names). Sure a few beekeepers may not be able to do tests but does not mean we should not try to educate beekeepers. I really can not believe there are beekeepers around ( except maybe Jim) which believe that the current die off is because of a single NEW problem and all the other things I spoke of above are not part (if not the big art ) of the problem. I have got many contacts inside the CCD team and especially in each bee lab (as does Marla Spivak). I have got a real clear picture what the team has found and now the team is kind of at a dead end. I have spent many hours on the phone and with emails. The bottom line today from the CCD team is a *weakened immune system*. The recommendation is too work on improving overall health of our bee colonies.( personal communication with members) Many of us are moving on with improving bee health to combat hive loss while others sit by the phone waiting for the memo from the CCD team about some new microscopic issue which may or may not have caused the CCD die off. One thing for sure we are never going to be told the CCD problem is not solvable until all funds for research are gone! Hives out of California are boiling with bees ( personal experience) and reports from Texas are good. California queen & package shipments arrived yesterday in Nebraska and next week in Kansas on time. Industry crisis? I actually would not be saying the above execpt the members of BEE-L only represent a very small segment of beekeeping as do the members of EAS. Another reality check! I want to see as much funding as possible poured into beekeeping and support the CCD effort ( like I have said all along). However BEE-L is a discussion list and the truth of the issue needs discussed. having been friends for years as always I hope Jim & I can to agree to disagree on some of the points he has made. I think some are valid and I do agree . Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 12:44:06 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: globe and mail article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> All that can be said for now is that many mundane things have been >> >>eliminated<< as possible causes of CCD. The symptoms of CCD are very >> unique. > > Maybe but all DEADOUTS are being labeled CCD! I listened to the hearing of > 3-29-007 on CNN. Anybody who relies on CNN is going to have a distorted idea of what is happening in the world, and this issue is sufficiently subtle that many are getting it very wrong. When we hear from Jerry, we are getting it from the horse's mouth. The rest IMO comes mostly from the other end. > Many common problems have been found. By definition, they are not CCD. Forget them. > How many CCD hives are there? There is the question, and we have not been told, probably because nobody knows -- yet. Obviously not all the losses are CCD, but many are trying to horn in and exploit the publicity and the sympathy. The story has been somewhat hijacked. The G&M article was one of the better reports. > Samples to bee labs has never been the quick answer for the commercial > beekeeper. Six weeks is the normal turn around. Most larger beekepers > have got a small lab and do tests. OK. So they are not the ones being discussed, obviously. > Jim seems to think beekeepers are for the most part too stupid to train. I don't think he said that. Those are your words. >Sure a few beekeepers may not be able to do tests... It is obviously *a lot more* than a few, probably a majority, and, of those who can, many (most?) simply cannot find the time or maintain consistent methods. Moreover, some tests are simple, fast and easy, and others require a bit more time, effort, and skill, so much so that even those who can do them tend to either neglect them or delgate the job. > but does not mean we should not try to educate beekeepers. Of course not. Who suggested we shouldn't educate beekeepers? Nobody. > I really can not believe there are beekeepers around ( except maybe Jim) > which believe that the current die off is because of a single NEW problem > and all the other things I spoke of above are not part (if not the big > part ) of the problem. Let's not get confused. There are all the normal losses which are being exploited due to the publicity and are adding to the confusion, then there is CCD, which many smart people seem to think IS new. (And, I think you are putting words into Jim's mouth again). This reminds the "tens of thousands of hives crashing" thread of a few years ago. Same argument with changed positions? > I have got many contacts inside the CCD team and especially in each bee > lab (as does Marla Spivak). I have got a real clear picture what the team > has found and now the team is kind of at a dead end. I have spent many > hours on the phone and with emails. The bottom line today from the CCD > team is a *weakened immune system*. I personally would like to hear the news from the 'team' directly, and not oversimplified through a biased interpreter. As far as I know there has not been a final conclusion, and when there is, no offense intended, but I doubt you will be selected to deliver the news. > The recommendation is too work on improving overall health of our bee > colonies. Bob, that is *always* the advice from extension people. It means nothing, and it means everything. People are putting you off. > One thing for sure we are never going to be told the CCD problem is not > solvable until all funds for research are gone! When/if the funds are gone, and if a mechanism has not been found, then obviously the problem will be much harder to solve. That seems fairly obvious to me, and, I assume, others who are following this. Indeed, that is one of the fears. > Hives out of California are boiling with bees ( personal experience) and > reports from Texas are good. California queen & package shipments arrived > yesterday in Nebraska and next week in Kansas on time. OK. I drove thru California and, I confess, lifted a few lids along the way. There are, indeed, more than a few outfits with few or no bees in some or all of their hives. > Industry crisis? Takes me back to the "tens of thousands of hives crashing" thread again. Anyone bothering to go back and read it at http://tinyurl.com/2w95dn might get a chuckle or two or even LOL. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 13:13:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Topbar Beekeeping Class in Aurora, CO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit All about Bees . . . . . . Get the buzz on bees from DeLaney's Beekeeper Marty Hardison. DeLaney offers beekeeping classes and workshops for all ages. Two Day Workshop presented by Marty Hardison Bee-keeping information and resources will be supplied Day 1: "Top-Bar Bee-Hive Construction" Saturday, May 5 9 AM - 12 PM Demonstration Day Only Day 2: "Building Your Own Bee-Hive" Saturday, May 12 9 AM - 12 PM Hands-On Activities Please call Heather DeLong at 303.292.900 to RSVP, space is limited. For more information about topbar beekeeping visit Marty's website: http://tinyurl.com/2bgrxs ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 13:43:35 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Anyone selling tracheal-mite susceptible stock is either lazy or incompetent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Anyway, if your queen supplier sells you queens that are still susceptible > to tracheal mites, find a new queen supplier. This is the 21st Century, > and anyone selling tracheal-mite susceptible stock is either lazy or > incompetent. I tend to agree with you, but I wonder, how one is to know, until losses occur or bees are pulled apart? Is there any sure way to know when purchasing queens, other than buying strains known for the trait, regardless of other considerations? And, if a breeder has TM resistant bees this year can we know that will be true next year? Apparently the trait is all over the map in bees from popular US queen suppliers, at least a few years back. See http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/tracheal.htm Maybe things have changed, but last I heard, the tests for TM susceptibility are still slow and somewhat costly in terms of time and effort and not widely employed by breeders. Are they using some other way of assuring this quality? Jose Villa, in his BEE-L post, some time back, referred to the potential ease of selection by identifying genes, but is this still in the future, or is it here now? Eliminating the TM problem once and forever would be a big advance, since TM can sneak up and is a bit hard for the average beekeeper to spot. Thus TM is often suspected first whenever unexplained losses occur. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 15:46:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: dead end versus waiting for results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob You said "now the (CCD) team is kind of at a dead end". There's a big difference between being at a dead end and waiting for results and funding. The first report from PSU was based on in-house capabilities. The first funds ($13k) received from NHB in February went to Penn State so that they could contract more diverse, expanded surveys for virus (with Columbia). Other small awards from EAS, etc. also went to Penn State. The first of the Columbia results were expected this week - but I haven't heard whether they came in or not. The second tier of funding from NHB was approved March 23 - and I don't think anyone on the CCD has received a funding package yet. I'm still waiting for our first nickel from any external source - hard to analyze for chemicals and other things without dollars, especially if you've spent money to keep 4 people in the field in 5 different states for 7 weeks -- so yep, I'm at a stand-still until I can pay for additional work. I'm in the fiscal hole already just collecting the samples in our freezer that are awaiting chem/bio analysis - when we can afford to conduct this next phase of the analytical work. And the bee loss surveys have taken up a lot of time and effort. Waiting for results and waiting for sufficient funding to conduct specific testing is not the same as the CCD team reaching a dead end - which implies to me there is no answer. I'm not ready to say there's no answer until we've had a reasonable chance to explore at least the most probable causes -- and a preliminary survey for viruses and imidacloprid is NOT by any stretch a comprehensive examination. I suggest that you read the survey results that we posted on _www.beealert.info_ (http://www.beealert.info) last week. The beekeepers surveyed are clearly NOT attributing all of their deadouts to CCD. In fact, we were surprised at how much effort each beekeeper put in to give us a clear picture of what is happening. And, we continue to get new surveys every day. It is clear that those beekeepers (about 1/2) who have not experienced CCD or unusual losses attribute most of their losses to overwintering or mites. It is also clear that the 171 who reported severe bee losses, most frequently cite CCD symptoms - but they also list overwintering, mites, etc. and try to partial out number of losses by suspected cause -- so they ARE NOT LUMPING everything that died into the CCD category. In fact, if anything, they are quick to acknowledge and separate out those losses due to failed management (like mite control) from CCD. However, until a beekeeper has experienced CCD, he/she has no idea of what we are really talking about, and the tendency is to say its poor beekeeping, failed mite management. We've seen that, but more and more, we're seeing CCD in operations that appear to have everything under control, mites treated and regularly monitored, feed sucrose rather than fructose, stay away for toxic/nutritionally poor sources of honeydew, etc. Spring collapses in strong colonies are worrisome. We (Bee Alert and BVS) also posted at _www.beealert.info_ (http://www.beealert.info) some new virus results and will update these next week. No big surprises except that we've finished analysis of the Australian bees brought in to Florida. Those bees have one and only one viable virus in them, and it is one of the two viruses we found in CCD colonies from Florida. That means that the Australian bees that we sampled ARE NOT introducing any new viruses to the U.S., very good news. Of the two viruses found in the Fl colonies, one is an unknown. Two other comments -- our preliminary virus work says that there are two and only two viable viruses in the Fl bees that we have checked - rather than a multitude of viruses. So maybe we don't have a general failure of the bee immune system - hard to tell. We should have more information over the next few weeks - even if its on borrowed nickels. So, we're slowed up but not at a dead end. Finally, as far as I know, the European Foul Brood was found in collapsed Fl bees some weeks after the initial collapse, probably because there weren't enough bees left in the brood nest to keep things under hygienic control. Those same colonies did not show any evidence of EFB when David Westervelt and I examined them some weeks earlier. Nor have I, and as far as I know, any of the rest of the team seen any widespread EFB in colonies in other states. However, in failed colonies, it does look like EFB can pop up after the fact, and as such, beekeepers should take precautions. I'm not arguing against taking steps to manage bee better -- it can't hurt and will at least help reduce losses from known causes. Even if the CCD team does find the cause, it may not be directly treatable. Knowing what causes CCD would be helpful, and if its something that can be mitigated, that would be tremendous. Those large beekeepers who sustained large losses this year - some won't survive the current loss, many can't survive a 2nd go around. We owe them our best effort. Jerry ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 15:50:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: USB microscopes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rich said For one tenth the price the QX-5 does JUST AS well and is a much better bargain. We've not tried that unit, would like to see some images for comparison to the MiScope. It is a better price, with a greater magnification range - according to the blurb. The MiScope form factor is probably a bit more conducive to being hauled around without things getting knocked out of alignment - but that's just a guess. Have you had much experience with the QX-5? Thanks Jerry ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 23:17:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: USB microscopes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I noticed another one here: http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?NOV-USBMC 200x mag at less than £50. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 17:09:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Re: Topbar Beekeeping Class in Aurora, CO In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The COMPLETE phone number is: Heather DeLong at 303.292.9900 to RSVP, So much for not proofreading things that I have cut and pasted from the website: http://dug.org/farm.asp where the workshop was announced! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 14:19:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Multiple eggs in cells In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have heard of laying workers depositing multiple eggs in cells, but I have what appears to be a healthy queen doing this. I purchased this queen last August, so she's less than a year old. She's marked so I know she's the same one. The colony dwindled more than usual over winter (as did my other two), with probably fewer than 5000 bees left. I'm seeing a good brood pattern (all worker),but where I see eggs there are two or more in almost every cell, and some with five or six. Can anyone tell me what causes this? Eugene Makovec Kirkwood, Missouri USA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 15:38:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: "Disappearing Disease " MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Having went back and reviewed the literature on "Disappearing Disease" and being a beekeeper when I first heard the words I see history trying to repeat itself. Nothing was found (similar to today). The promise of an answer to the question of "Disappearing Disease" never came. Those beekeepers which lost hives back then simply became better beekeepers. Every time you lose a large number of hives and go through a warehouse of deadouts ( has happened to me before and in archives) you become a better beekeeper. Most of us are more concerned today with the work of Diana Cox Foster on virus and virus contamination of comb ( directly related to varroa ) than we are some mystery CCD problem. Her presentation at ABF did not fall on deaf ears! 1. virus is spread by contamination on flowers 2. Virus contamination on comb is real and only solved by comb replacement (boxes can be saved by power washing) 3. A virus contaminated queen can infect the whole hive as the virus is passed on in eggs. 4. virus contamination passed from bee to bee and from bee to larva. All the CCD hives contained mites & virus as did the hives in Florida which crashed four years ago! I quietly spent days working on the problem. My opinion is if you control varroa then most PMS & CCD problems will go away. Unless your comb has a high level of virus contamination from several die offs leaving PMS contamination on comb. In those cases many beekeepers ARE reporting what Jerry B. is calling CCD. Hives are crashing with somewhat high varroa loads but lower than threshold levels of varroa coming out of California. However many last year made it to July/August before crashing. We have seen higher than normal varroa loads in package *shake* bees coming out of California the last two package seasons. Not a big deal but tells me that most hives coming out of almonds have got a varroa load needing a spring treatment soon. The reason why I say maybe we should give the SSDD beekeepers money for package bees one time but if they do not heed the work of Diana Cox Foster about varroa and virus contamination on comb then this fall they are going to be asking for packages again. And again! Once again! Please one more round of packages to keep me afloat! Real solutions are to educate as many beekeepers as possible as fast as possible as to things which the CCD team saw wrong in hives and found in hives. Is not Diana Cox foster part of the CCD team? The CCD team totally discounts the Penn State inspector which reported a high infestation of varroa in the hives of David Hackenburg in July of 2006 ( report on file). He recommended immediate treatment to save those hives. If not the hives were doomed. CCD Even refused to take a peak at samples proving the same. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 20:59:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Multiple eggs in cells Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eugene Makovec wrote: >I have heard of laying workers depositing multiple eggs in cells, but I have >what appears to be a healthy queen doing this. >Can anyone tell me what causes this? The queen "wants" to be laying thousands of eggs but there are only enough bees to care for a few hundred. So she goes around and lays in the cells over and over again. This may happen more often than we realize, but if there are more bees they are apt to clear out the surplus eggs. Of course, if there are lots of bees, then they can keep up with the queen. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************