From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:12:30 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,NO_FORMS,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E92E5490A0 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3YX9017258 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:36 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0812B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 185943 Lines: 4143 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 23:17:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Knowledge across disciplines; was Xenobiotics Comments: To: Gavin Ramsay Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gavin Ramsay wrote: >Not boring, but a bit far from the mainstream. I'm a geneticist (and talk about genes all the time!) One in every crowd! No, seriously, thanks for taking the time to write about this, which you are no doubt more competent to discuss than I. Best wishes Peter Borst ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:48:43 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: [WL] [BEE-L] Queen rearing Books In-Reply-To: <3FE609CFBF5C428099E2006FF301F1E6@homepc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi John & Christy Keith mentions... > Bee Genetics and Breeding, Rinderer > Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding, Laidlaw and Page > Elemental Genetics and Breeding for the Honeybee, Ernesto Guzman-Nova > Bee Sex Essentials, Connor See also... Background to bee breeding, J. Atkinson Elements of genetics, Mesquida The Dark European Honey Bee, Freidrich Ruttner, Eric Milner and John E. Dews ISBN 0-905369-08-4 Breeding Better Bees using simple methods, John E. Dews and Eric Milner ISBN 1-904623-18-2 Breeding Techniques and Selection, Freidrich Ruttner (translated by Ashleigh & Eric Milner) ISBN 0-905369-07-6 Pedigree Bee Breeding in Western Europe Edited, Bernhard M�bus and Dr. Job van Praagh ISBN 0-905369-03-3 Although some of the titles refer to the Dark European Honey Bee, the principles apply to other races. -- Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 08:07:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: [WL] [BEE-L] Queen rearing Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Although the Laidlaw books are the best, a very neat and simple one is "Rearing Queen Honey Bees" by Roger A. Morse. Wic Was Press. 1979. Another favorite of mine is "Practical Queen Rearing" by Frank Pellett. American Bee Journal, publisher. 1929 pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 07:38:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Queen rearing Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks for all the references.......you know i was just having a feeling my wife would just love one of these for a Christmas present :) John ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 09:10:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Knowledge across disciplines; was Xenobiotics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>>>>Peter said "If this is boring...<<<< Far from it. >>>>>Gavin states that he is a geneticist and says: "There are complex controls over the expression of most genes,,,it is just that now we are getting some idea of just how complex."<<<<< For my money this is the understatement of the year. Epigenetics is turning the study of evolution and adaptation on its' ear. There are two separate items .1.The effects of nutrition on the developing bee. 2. The effects of nutrition/stress on the genome of said bee. Gene expression is not only affected by diet. Trauma or triumph can affect the gene. One (epigenetic) study I read was based on a population of starved people in Holland during WW-2. Children were born with low birth weight. Their children were born with low birth weight. And the trait was passed on (I think) to the next generation. Lower birth weight can be good or bad. Smaller people eat less but smaller babies have lower survival rates. I looked for the study and couldn’t find it. These will tide you over until I do. http://www.geneticsandhealth.com/2008/10/30/maternal-starvation-has-lasting-effect-on-fetus-dna/ http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article1759971.ece My limited understanding tells me that the ramifications of epigenetics will have resounding effects on bee and other breeding. In fact it already has and we are just finding out about it. It increases by a hundredfold the adaptive ability of a species. Peter wrote: >>>> So imagine, if you will, if behaviors can be regulated through substances introduced into the diet and if changes these can be passed on via heredity. >>>>> Genetically endowed behaviors and other genetic expressions can be regulated through substances; through trauma and through whatever in the environment has an impact. It isn’t so much that we can find the switches…it’s that this fact of life has been going on forever. We are at the point of beginning to understand it. Considering the effects of trauma on genes, it may not make as much sense to "breed from the survivors." The thought also occurs that a worker bee is also a starved queen. Could this adaptation have settled in, this way, in a few generations? Is there something here we should know about "small-cell" bees? My head hurts. Dick Marron ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 09:25:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Knowledge across disciplines; was Xenobiotics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Establishing the honey bee genome (mapping the blueprint) was step 1. Genes > get lots of press, but it's the proteins (step 2) that perform most life > functions and even make up the majority of cellular structures. Amen. Along with RNA, these are the two main areas that most of the new discoveries are coming from. Mapping DNA only gives the edges of the puzzle. How the rest of the pieces interact with the edges is what we are now starting to understand. Problem is, we are also finding that the edges are not as fixed as we once thought. One of the most interesting areas of current science as it has so much promise, but is exceptionally complicated. Just look at the complexity of any "simple" proteins. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 09:28:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Knowledge across disciplines; was Xenobiotics Comments: To: Richard Marron Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick Marron wrote: >For my money this is the understatement of the year. Epigenetics is turning the study of evolution and adaptation on its ear. Thanks Dick. I was beginning to think maybe I went too far with it, though I doubt it. Some folks are still clinging to what they learned back in a previous century ;-) Pete ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:13:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: What's in That Package? In-Reply-To: <27DF4AAFED754916B639A05187DA5F8E@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dr Marion Ellis and Nick Aliano tested dusting bees in screened cages, whic= h would be somewhat analogous to packages. They found that having a solid, rather than screened, bottom greatly boosted efficacy at removing mites. The data from our preliminary experiment indicate that 29.7 =B1 5.4% of the varroa on adult bees are removed when bees are dusted with powdered sugar in a box with a screened bottom and top. We increased percentage mite fall to 76.7 =B1 3.6% in our secondary study by adding solid bottoms to our bee boxes. We did not succeed in removing 90% of the mites from adult bees isolated from their nest material as reported by Macedo et al. (2002). One reason we did not achieve 90% mite fall may be attributed to not using screened bottom boards to monitor mite fall after returning bees to their colonies following treatment. For this reason, the 76.7% mite removal may be an underesti- mate because mites continue to fall for several hours after dust- ing adult bees with powdered sugar (personal observation). However, the 76.7% mite removal represents a level of control that is comparable to other treatments used to reduce mite pop- ulations. We believe that the bee boxes used in the second study were more effective at knocking off mites from adult bees because they had a solid bottom, thus ensuring even distribution of pow- dered sugar on adult bees. Additionally, our solid bottom bee boxes retained heat, which may have contributed to mite drop. Three of our treatment colonies in the Pawnee Lake apiary had 100% mite fall, but these colonies also regurgitated honey due to temperature stress. Subsequent treatment colonies were checked periodically during their 20=9630-minute period in the bee box to prevent heat stress. In contrast, the boxes used in our preliminary study had screened bottoms, which allowed much of the powdered sugar to pass through without sticking to the bees. We noticed that bees dusted in boxes with screened bottoms were not as evenly covered with powdered sugar as those in our solid-bottom bee boxes. The screened bottom also allowed more ventilation, and such boxes could be left inverted for over an hour without reaching temperatures high enough to cause regurgitation. Our results suggest that higher tempera- tures may increase mite fall when bees are isolated from their nest material and dusted with powdered sugar. Journal of Apicultural Research 44(2): 54=9657 (2005) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:32:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: What's in That Package? In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10812081213x65cb9560k1844d75f64c5b343@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Since we are on the topic of sugar dusting, for those of you who don't subscribe to ABJ, I have a three-part series on data that I've collected in putting top dusting to the test. The first is in the current issue, and will be posted to my website in a day or so. The series will cover a field trial of top dusting efficacy, then detail the hour-by-hour rate of mite drop acceleration due to dusting, as well as limitations and problems with top dusting (I hope that this will address some of Jim's excellent questions). Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:39:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi All, I've been to a slew of conferences, and have had the chance to speak with a number of commercial beekeepers and researchers. Researchers from various countries are not linking N ceranae alone to collapse during the summer. High levels in fall are another thing. So I'm still really curious what is causing the behavior that Bob so well described of bees going off feed and drowning in syrup when they have high N ceranae levels. A number of others have observed this phenomenon. I have posted several articles on N ceranae to my website. If you are going to do yard testing, I suggest that you look at the "Protocol" page. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 08:23:09 +1100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Scott J. Coutts" Organization: Monash University Subject: Re: Knowledge across disciplines; was Xenobiotics In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: > Finally, some folks have adopted short cut terminology of calling > genomics and proteomics the Omics - bit cute for my taste. But in > the field of Informatics, you will see references made to omics. 1. > Genes get lots of press, but it's the proteins (step 2) that perform > most life functions and even make up the majority of cellular > structures. > > There's not been much discussion on this list about Proteomics, but > this is where the big pharmaceutical companies are looking for new > treatments. It is still hard to replace or 'fix' a gene. Genes > regulate the production of proteins, and that's where many more > opportunities exist, since proteins can turn things on and off, etc. > Studying proteomics (protein expression and function) promises to > help elucidate the molecular basis of health and disease. > ... but you can't say that proteomics is the answer, and genomics isn't (and by that, I'm not saying that genomics is the answer, and proteomics isnt). I think all of the "-omics" need to be taken together, rather than isolation. Also, as I'm sure you know already, the "-omics" fields of research include not only genomics and proteomics; It more refers to any global study of biomolecules or consitients in a cell/tissue/organism/substance of study - so it includes proteomics, genomics, transcriptomics, glycomics, metabolomics and even metagenomics of populations... there's more "-omics" terms coined all the time. The reason I highlight that point is this: These studies in isolation are a problem with a lot of research at the moment, I think... The genomics folks do their thing, the proteomics folks do their thing, the transcriptomcis folks do their thing. We're never going to understand it all until we look at them all combined... it's just a pretty hard job to do that all at once. That's not to criticise the work alone, or the groups doing it. I don't think we're at a point now where we can take it all into consideration at the same time (not all that well, anyway). > > The price per test is a bit pricey at $250 sample, but the > information obtained is somewhat similar to going to your doctor for > a checkup and having just about every lab test known conducted at > one time. > I'd be interested to know what information you get from your bee proteomics. I'm a little skeptical about the phrase "the information obtained is somewhat similar to going to your doctor for a checkup and having just about every lab test known conducted at one time", unless you're using that fairly loosely, or unless the testing system with bees is substantially different from other systems (which is quite likely... bees are certainly very far from my field of expertise!) Cheers, Scott. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:38:40 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Knowledge across disciplines; was Xenobiotics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scott Obviously, all of the 'omics' disciplines need to integrate, they compliment each other. My point was that proteomics is the latest discipline to start to appear. We're doing some, other labs are, and there is a genetics study in Canada using both technologies. As per the all in one, I'm using the term in a very loose way. It is hard to describe here, we and the Army will be at the upcoming National Bee Meetings - come see our presentations and you'll see a bit of what we mean. Jerry **************Stay in touch with ALL of your friends: update your AIM, Bebo, Facebook, and MySpace pages with just one click. The NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000012) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:32:42 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Subject: Re: acetic acid /sea container In-Reply-To: <001d01c957cf$0f0bfb20$0500000a@ari71aa1cf24c5> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT >From memory, carbon dioxide will kill nosema spores at slightly elevated temperatures (around 45�C or so). I haven't looked up the paper, but am sure it shouldn't be too difficult to track down, probably around 15-30 years ago time frame. The benefits of this in a shipping container would be: not corrosive, cheap, safe, no airing time before use... pretty much no downsides. Acetic acid has the propensity to rust any metal components in frames (wire, nails/staples etc) with the resulting food contaminant risk. Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:36:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike McDonald Subject: Object formula for hive strength Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If a person were to consider certain measurable aspects of a colony and use those measurements to calculate a value representing the overall strength of a colony. What would be the best things to measure? How would each be weighted? Mike McDonald ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:35:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Natural hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings Now that we have pretty well milked the SCI FI beekeeping scenario, I suggest looking at the other side of the coin, how to keep bees without any of that. I would like to think that the bees themselves could outwit the various invasive pests visited upon us, but invasive pests have a very good track record of prevailing. But if significantly better bees cannot be gotten by conventional breeding, perhaps it's time to look seriously at management issues. One lesson that I got out of Tom Seeley's Arnot Forest study (as well as many other similar stories) is that unmanaged colonies may have a certain edge. What gives them that edge? Is it the fact that we are not in the hives, mucking about, as Scott Camazine suggested? Or is it the annual swarming which normally occurs? My question is what would be the effect of keeping hives in two or three stories, encouraging swarming, and harvesting only small amounts of honey if it is really "in the way". I am not talking about a way of managing bees for profit but to see if they can be maintained in a healthier state by abstaining from most of the conventional management practices. If this would work, it might be possible to maintain unhybridized bees, which are certainly in danger of being lost, the more we cross breed and tinker with them. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:57:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: Object formula for hive strength Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Mike McDonald asked how to determine hive strength in an > analytical way based on measurements. I expect any formula would have to vary by season. I use square inches of brood in late April (location New England). This works better to predict hive strength 3 weeks in the future. To use it to estimate current hive strength, I have to take into account the insulating value of the hive, whether there have been any especially cold nights recently, and whether the colony has sufficient food stimulation so the queen can lay up to the maximum brood warming capacity of the cluster. For almond pollination, I recall reading that hive strength is assessed by number of combs covered by bees at a specific temperature in (presumably) a normal wood hive without insulation. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:20:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Natural hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter, Short quote from your previous mail!! "I am not talking about a way of managing bees for profit but to see if they can be maintained in a healthier state by abstaining from most of the conventional management practices." I suggest that if this was actually attained, then rather quickly the commercial side of apiculture would start tweaking the practices to create short cuts / reduce negatives et al., which then results in slipping down a previous greasy slope! Re-invention of the wheel. Regards, Peter PEI, Canada ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:22:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Object formula for hive strength In-Reply-To: <1228779390.6577.7.camel@Cuthbert> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > What would be the best things to measure? How >would each be weighted? Frames of brood Frames of bees Weight of hive Mike ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:26:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Erin Martin Subject: Resources on bee sounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all-- Can someone point me to a good comprehensive resource about all the sounds bees make? I'd prefer something that gets into both the more acoustic side of it (the frequency, pitch, etc. of sounds) and also the behavior side (i.e. queen piping being heard before swarming, etc.). Thanks! ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:32:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Weller Subject: Re: Natural hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, there's a lot of us hobbyists who have been following your recommended "benign neglect" procedure for some time now. If they die, they die. Beekeeping is fun again. Walter Weller *************************** ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:55:06 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David MacFawn Subject: Re: Natural hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, I agree. I have been "maintaining" some hives minimally for the last 2-3 years. I have one hive that has survived for 3 years w/o any treatment for mites, or nothing. I placed two deeps and a medium and let them go. This is in the Columbia, SC area. What you described is exactly what I have done. I installed 7 packages last year and am letting them go naturally. I am expecting a heavy loss but if I can get 1 out of the 7 to survive, then I consider I am ahead. I believe all the treatments that we have been giving our bees has artificially kept a lot of colonies alive, i.e. if we quit treating these colonies a good portion will die and the bees will reproduce off the survivors. The bees are better at understanding what the species need to do to survive than man is with all the our chemicals. In essence, I created a semi natural environment in the hive, did not harvest any honey and did not move any supers around. The pollen stayed intact where they put it. However, with that said, I am a sideliner and do not depend on my bees to make a living. So, the question is what is cheaper in the long run, to treat and not take the loss initially, or not treat and incur the compounded expense of treating to keep colonies alive artificially. The further down the treatment path we go the more variables and uncertain we are about the colonies that we are treating. Dave M. **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 04:19:08 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Object formula for hive strength MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/12/2008 00:32:46 GMT Standard Time, pyrite90@YAHOO.COM writes: calculate a value representing the overall strength of a colony. Is strength your only criterion? It seems to be a very narrow view, but measurable. Simply shake the bees (as if doing a Taranov swarm) onto a sheet, tie the corners and hang it from a scale. If done at the appropriate season for your area you could then use the bees actually to make a Taranov swarm, in which case you would need to re-weigh the swarm and do some simple arithmetic, or else simply dump the all bees back in the hive you took them from, maybe having given them a good dusting with sugar while out of the hive. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 04:45:11 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Natural hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/12/2008 00:51:05 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: My question is what would be the effect of keeping hives in two or three stories, encouraging swarming, and harvesting only small amounts of honey if it is really "in the way". This is an experiment that many of us can do over the next few years to build up a sufficiently large collection of anecdotes that they might, if themes emerge, become regarded as evidence. The important point about Seeley's bees is that the colonies are widely separated from each other. Maybe we could each establish a single hive in a friend or relative's garden, or in an isolated area where there are no other hives nearby. Mesh floors would probably be a good idea. Start each hive from a swarm with foundation starter strips only. Give them a total volume to occupy of maybe a couple of bushels. When you go to visit your friends (which might be more often than before) take a look at the hive from the outside; check the debris falling through the mesh floor. Examine the mites through a magnifying glass to see if more or less are damaged than in other hives. Read Storch's 'At the Hive Entrance' to gain a non-invasive insight into what is happening within. Maybe heft the hive at intervals roughly to assess the weight. Open the hive only if you have a particular valid reason to do so. Don't feed them. Take a harvest in Spring when you know that what you take is truly surplus to their needs. Station a bait hive nearby in case they do decide to swarm. Do an annual thorough health check for foulbrood etc when you take your harvest, but replace the frames in the order in which you found them. Report at intervals (possibly via the Santa Group). Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:49:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Xenobiotics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >So imagine, if you will, if behaviors can be regulated through > substances introduced into the diet If one knows which protein in AHB causes defensive behavior, then one could feed AHB colonies siRNA that "silence" that protein. Theoretically, if you fed often enough to silence each new generation of brood, the bees would remain gentle. Before anyone jumps all over me, the above is merely a thought experiment, not a practical suggestion. Here in Calif we have a tree called Live Oak. The leaves grow with smooth edges. But if a deer eats the leaves off, the stimulus of deer saliva makes the next batch of leaves grow back with prickly edges. You can look at the leaves of a tree and see just how high the deer can reach by looking at the margins of the leaves. This is an epigenetic change. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:00:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Re: Xenobiotics In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10812082249y16303681pce43301515a9f523@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy wrote: >>>Here in Calif we have a tree called Live Oak. The leaves grow with smooth edges. But if a deer eats the leaves off, the stimulus of deer saliva makes the next batch of leaves grow back with prickly edges. You can look at the leaves of a tree and see just how high the deer can reach by looking at the margins of the leaves. This is an epigenetic change.<<<< There is a species of fir tree that changes its' PH in response to a disease. (forgot whether disease or other attack) When the alien hits the edges of the grove and the first trees change.....the whole grove changes, even those trees as yet unaffected. Isn't there a Japanese virus that is found in the brains of bees which makes them aggressive? The Kakugo virus: http://jvi.asm.org/cgi/reprint/80/23/11528 It is found in the most aggressive bees and is a definite help with the Asian hornet. Makes one wonder how many viruses are positive. Dick Marron ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:25:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: Re: Natural hives In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote: .... If this would work... I think that there are ways to make it work--and not through negligence. Disruption of major life processes of pests, diseases & vectoring situations can eliminate many of the issues dealt with by chemical treatments. There is a time cost and I doubt all these classic cultural control mechanisms can be practiced by all commercial models. I have been working out a mix of techniques that are helping my operation. I'm a building sideliner--5 barrels/year now with a good retail market for honey, candle, & other value added products. The other half of my honey is sold wholesale. I'm in my 5thish year of working out details of not using prophylactic chemical treatments in my hives and at least 10 years of thinking about it. I work extensively with IPM (day job) and do not mind chems & I have dusted with tetracycline for suspicious foulbrood conditions with destruction of colonies & removal & destruction of suspicious frames. I feed sugar solution & use pollen patties during extreme dry August and/or prior to this winter based on need. From my perspective breeding for mite resistance is perhaps our first line of defense. I rely on the work of others for my base stock. Though I have not purchased a queen in four years. Our club has started a queen swap-- best of the best from around the region in hopes of providing some intra-regional diversity. I select for & raising queens from my best hives--low mites, good production, winter well & have a reasonable demeanor. I re-queen yearly with cells.--The broodless period this creates is helpful in breaking mite production cycle. I try to do raise queens & make splits mid-July after the Basswood flow. I carry my strong colonies trough the spring --for spring honey production. I do loose swarms. --This still needs some fine tuning. Sugar dusting helps. It knocks down a small proportion of mites from each repeated treatment which keeps the mite populations from exploding. Drone trapping --but only two frames per hive (to hard to dig out the bottom two from a strong hive). I also have taken to scraping down the frames rather than allow hives to clean the dead drone pupae out.-- I believe that worker removal of parasitized & potentially virus/ disease infected drone larvae may spread virus or disease. Scrapings are disposed of carefully so bees cannot forage on the remains. I make midsummer splits ((after Basswood) which are my nucs for the following year. I break up poor colonies--poor and old frames are culled at this time. An apiary is treated as a multi-queen hive. A problem found in one hive may signal the same problem in other hives at that same site. In my area we have a strong August dearth. Caging queens during this period (14 days--followed by a quick feed (substitute & sugar soln) is showing promise in disrupting that rapid rise in mite numbers in the fall. I can still harvest the goldenrod flow--which can be half our honey volume/year whereas many are pulling honey & treating to prevent mite explosion & hive collapse. I look with interest at a formic acid flash treatments during this dearth period but a registered form of this needs to be available first. I feed, if hives need (not every year) & wrap for winter (always). I'm still experiencing winter losses but percentages are improving ( or I've had a few lucky winters) --but am restocking with my own nucs prepared the prior summer. Once I shag my day job I will further expand. My business model will probably lead me to a couple hundred hives at most continuing with a half wholesale & half retail market. So I'm thinking that IPM/reduced reliance on chems can be accomplished in my business model, though chems will probably be an emergency tool in times of need (only) not prophylactically applied I'm still undecided about what I need to do about N. ceranae. My hive with the largest Nosema counts was my most productive this past year and went into winter looking great. Mixed reviews as to best treatments adds to my reluctance to treat. Reliance on cultural activities that disrupt cycles of the vectors ability to reproduce, reduction of virus & disease levels in the apiary and nutrition assistance as needed, with a dash of registered treatments as needed- are working for me YMMV. Mike Griggs Entomologist/ Support Scientist Biological Integrated Pest Management Research Unit USDA ARS, Robert W. Holley Center for Agriculture and Health Tower Road, Ithaca, NY 14853 http://www.ars.usda.gov/naa/ithaca/BioIPM phone: 607-255-1085 fax: 607-255-1132 email: mhg3@cornell.edu ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 08:22:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Natural hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > The important point about Seeley's bees > is that the colonies are widely separated from each other. Maybe we could > each establish a single hive in a friend or relative's garden, or in an > isolated > area where there are no other hives nearby. Sort of defeats the current model of beekeeping and just what are we breeding? What you need is the pressure of the pest not the isolation of the bees from the pest. All you are breeding then is a susceptible bee. I asked Seeley if the bees would survive in a normal apiary and his answer was no. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:43:23 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Natural hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/12/2008 14:35:44 GMT Standard Time, bathbeekeeper@GMAIL.COM writes: I askedSeeley if the bees would survive in a normal apiary and his answer was no. Seeley tried moving isolated colonies from the forest to established apiaries and they were as susceptible to Vd as others in the apiary; hence his views about horizontal v vertical transmission of mites. The purpose of the small scale, but hopefully wide-spread, experiment I suggested would be to find out more about the bees themselves rather than their commercial management, although lessons learned may pay a commercial dividend. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:45:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Re: Natural hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill T wrote: >>>>> Sort of defeats the current model of beekeeping and just what are we breeding? What you need is the pressure of the pest not the isolation of the bees from the pest. All you are breeding then is a susceptible bee. I asked Seeley if the bees would survive in a normal apiary and his answer was no.^^^^^^ Chris wrote: >>>>> The purpose of the small scale, but hopefully wide-spread, experiment I suggested would be to find out more about the bees themselves rather than their commercial management, although lessons learned may pay a commercial dividend.<<<<<< These are two sides of an old argument. See: http://www.cmp.caltech.edu/~motrunch/Teaching/Phy135b_Winter07/MoreIsDiffere nt.pdf The principle is that you as we back out from the smallest building blocks we can ascertain ....new properties emerge. (Let's call them emergent properties ;) Put nicely, "You can't tell much about a traffic jam by studying the automobile." Similarly, you can't tell much about a swarm by studying a honeybee. What arbitrary Idea makes us think that the level of the colony or small bee-yard is a proper place to stop? In speaking to Dave Mendes I pointed out that one could take all brand new equipment and a package of bees...and get 2 years out of them without treatment. He said, "Try that in a commercial yard." Without planning an experiment I started 4 yards last spring. 2,2,2,3 and the home yard of about 12. All did well except the 12, that had mites and other problems and will have a high mortality. What did I learn? Bigger is different. I have a personal conviction that the travelling apiary is so unnatural that the bees respond by just dying. (See Die-off, ABJ early '07). This could be triggered by our new friend, epigenetics. Whatever. If the problem occurs in the commercial realm, the answer must be found there. Dick Marron ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:33:57 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Natural hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/12/2008 17:21:37 GMT Standard Time, dickm@SNET.NET writes: If the problem occurs in the commercial realm, the answer must be found there. There are plenty of people keeping bees on a commercial scale and reporting to us their findings; but few (except Tom Seeley) seem to be studying bees kept in a more or less natural way, or, if they are, they aren't telling us about it. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:53:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T'N'T Apiaries Subject: Re: Fact-Check for "Truth Check" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote: > Does that mean that US foundation manufacturers will have to source their > beeswax from the poorer countries of the World where chemicals like > coumaphos are unheard of? Do such places really exist? Whenever I speak at length with people who have traveled overseas on missions, etc. one thing that inevitably comes up, that is the free for all use of chemicals that are restricted or banned in North America. DDT for example. Contrary to popular belief not every commercial beekeeper here has used checkmite or some home version of coumophos. Some of us have gotten a slight premium for our wax in the past because of it. One buyer a couple years ago said he had attempted to go off shore. He had given up because the analysis of the samples he received turned up quite a number of things that he had no idea how they would have gotten into the wax. Dave Tharle Ardmore, AB ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:38:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Natural hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > but few (except Tom Seeley) seem to be studying bees > kept in a more or less natural way, or, if they are, they aren't telling > us > about it. Big question comes up here- what is natural? What Tom looked at was how the bees coped with Varroa in a forest setting. What he found was not what had been in the past, but something different. So was what was before, natural? And what he found natural? Truth is, both are but the former is the more or less steady state nature of the bees from the time they went natural by escaping from their colonial oppressors. Something about taxes, I guess (joke). That is actually the state we want again, so studying the new state tells us that it is mostly futile to breed bees in an apiary! There are some, and they are on this list, who say they are breading bees naturally without treatments, but I have yet to see it moved from the hobby side to the commercial side, excluding managed AHB. Bill Truesdell - who longs for the good old days when he had a pet T-Rex in the back yard. Very natural. Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:10:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Knowledge across disciplines; was Xenobiotics In-Reply-To: <003d01c9593e$cc3bdf10$64b39d30$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >The thought also occurs that a worker bee is also a starved queen. Well said, Dick. I think that it helps to see the queen in this persective. In my mind, the queen caste is the default. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:28:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Nutritional Crossbreed Technology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >Now, for Something completely different!"Breeding the Mite-Resistant Honeybee by Nutritional Crossbreed Technology" Fascinating! But let's take it a step further in simple A. mellifera colonies. Could the presence of one subfamily of workers in a colony affect the phenotype of the others through their contribution of jelly during feeding? This could be a huge new avenue of research. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:49:37 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Natural hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >There are plenty of people keeping bees on a commercial scale and > reporting > to us their findings; but few (except Tom Seeley) seem to be studying bees > kept in a more or less natural way, or, if they are, they aren't telling > us > about it. There is a huge silent group of part time beekeepers who do minimal treatment, and often minimal management, and have bees that survive pretty well. One point that I stands out is that beekeeping is not scaleable. What works at one scale may not work at all at another scale. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 06:53:32 +1100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Buntine Subject: Varroa - Are there any positives? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Down Under, we do a lot of talking about keeping varroa out of the = country. We don't do much action, however. Some say that varroa has a positive side to it. When varroa spreads = across the country, feral hives and less well managed hobby hives, will = be permanently destroyed, and these 'free pollinators' will no longer = serve the orchardists. A win for the apiarist with well managed hives. I would like comments from those living with varroa.=20 Are all ferals doomed? Are pollination services in greater demand? Bob Buntine Avenel Honey Farm Australia ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:37:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Varroa - Are there any positives? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Are all ferals doomed? Are pollination services in greater demand? Yes and Yes -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:42:23 +1100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Scott J. Coutts" Organization: Monash University Subject: Re: Varroa - Are there any positives? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Out of interest (and with some potential implication to the above suggestion), does Varroa affect any Australian native bees? Also (unrelated to the above suggestion!) does anyone 'farm' any Australian native bees? ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 20:26:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Natural hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:38:45 -0500, Bill T wrote: >Big question comes up here- what is natural? I have at length come to the conclusion that the answer to this question belongs to each of us, there is no right or wrong answer. Each will have his or her own answer, or will decide there is none, really. To me, a natural hive is one in a tree or cave. Or, if it is in a bee hive, because bees will naturally move into hives, the management of it would be minimal. I see nothing wrong with giving extra room, as needed. Make sure it doesn't succumb to a contagious disease, like AFB. That it doesn't go hopelessly queenless. And I would suggest dividing the hive, so as to get the benefit of swarming without losing the swarm to the woods. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 18:47:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T'N'T Apiaries Subject: Re: Fact-Check for "Truth Check" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > that is the free for all use of chemicals that are restricted or banned in > North America. Having already recieved a couple of emails on this, I would like to clarify. A better choice of words would have been "restricted or banned in what are often termed 1st world countries". My apologies. I do not believe that Canada & the US hold any kind of righteous moral ground when it comes to chemical usage. In fact I know we have a thing or two to learn from some of our European cousins. Dave Tharle Ardmore, AB Canada ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 20:57:37 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David MacFawn Subject: Natural Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy has an interesting and important point about scaleability. I guess I am one of those "part time" beekeepers right now. The big thing keeping me from expanding is the mortality rate.....I have to figure that out first or "I will lose my shirt." It is not treat and incur the heavy losses (deadout cost and lost production cost....T&L, wages, lost equipment in there too) until I reach equilibrium ( which I am assuming is attainable since bees have lived for many thousands of years thru all sorts of issues), or treat and incur the heavy medication cost (medication, T&L, Labor) with having to jump from medication to medication and the contamination issues which smacks back to deadout cost. I have made 100 foundationless frames of two different types; enough for 10 brood chambers to test on my splits and packages next Spring. I am hoping this will improve the "survivability" of the colonies: - can develop what ever cell size bees want with whatever mixture of worker and drone cells -cheaper cleanup cost from dead outs -cheaper - do not incur the foundation cost -freer of contaminants - easier to rework frames after rotate out combs/frames **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:52:12 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Subject: Re: Varroa - Are there any positives? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Bob, Like everything in beekeeping, everything is specific to location (and country). However our experience........ Varroa was discovered in New Zealand March 2000. It is still spreading through the South Island (40% of honey production) 5 year average crop up to before Varroa was 8,781 tonnes 5 year average crop up to and including 2008 crop is 10,208 tonnes Anecdotal evidence is that beekeepers are producing more per hive with 30% more a common number. Reasons speculated on include reduced numbers of hobbyists, reduced competition from ferals, possibility of pollen mites killed by V. treatments and thus better nutrition in hive, beekeepers being beekeepers rather than bee havers (Bee havers do not survive Varroa), better control of bee stock genetics with eradication of ferals (mostly A.m.m in NZ). Varroa produced an immediate increase in price of pollination of most crops but most importantly kiwifruit (around 30% of country's hives go to KF pollination. On this crop price went up NZ$50 per hive on a base of 80 - 100. Prices now are in the NZ$130 - 200 range. This jump was caused by grower fear surrounding media beatups of the demise of beekeeping from V. In Australia, one significant advantage would be the elimination of ferals. As I understand it, the claim is that feral honeybees inhabit available nesting sites and compete with Australian native animals, birds etc and thus upset the natural order of things. It is hypothesised that these same ferals preferentially pollinate some species over others again upsetting the natural order..... This is a key (if not THE key plank) in the environmentalists' argument that is having Australian beehives thrown out of National Parks, Forestry and Wilderness areas. Varroa will eliminate these ferals (and their replacements from commercial apiaries) and this may negate the environmental argument that is causing so much angst there. Best regards, Peter Bray_________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 22:21:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: Varroa - Are there any positives? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Robert Buntine wrote: >Are all ferals doomed? >Are pollination services in greater demand? If the crop is in bloom and the grower sees no bees on the flowers, he gets motivated. If he has had a poor crop because of poor pollination, he is motivated. Some growers learn faster than others. Varroa wipes out ferals wherever colony density is above some low threshold. The ferals then come back, likely better adapted to dealing with varroa. I believe the ferals can be wiped out again by overstocking the area with colonies that reach high varroa loads in late summer and collapse. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 22:27:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: Natural hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit randy oliver wrote: >One point that I stands out is that beekeeping is not scaleable. What works >at one scale may not work at all at another scale. And I believe the degree to which scale matters has gotten worse in the past few years as the interaction among varroa, viruses and other pathogens has become more potent. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 05:47:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike McDonald Subject: Re: Varroa - Are there any positives? In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10812091537s7f9c2e41q9dcd4166a370e59d@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 00:37 +0100, Juanse Barros wrote: > Are all ferals doomed? No, I don't believe feral bees are doomed. It's been 20 years since Varroa first appeared in the U.S. and there are still feral colonies around. It has been suggested that perhaps these feral colonies are dying out each year with bee trees being repopulated by new swarms from managed hives. but there is no evidence to support that claim. Here in the Mid South, we are seeing an increase in feral populations, as mentioned by Jennifer Berry in this presentation: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3081789258595842918 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 07:33:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Varroa - Are there any positives? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Robert Buntine wrote: >Are all ferals doomed? >Are pollination services in greater demand? The answer to this depends on the *actual* contribution of wild and feral pollinators. If you are a proponent of wild bees, it is great. If you are a beekeeper, it is small. Just the facts, please! The question of long term survival of feral hives is vexing. Even before varroa, I questioned how long a colony would persist in a particular location. You hear people say "that tree has had bees in it for 20 years" or some such. But they don't really know if it is the same colony or if it periodically dies out and gets repopulated. So, even if feral bees die out more quickly due to varroa, you will still have swarms issuing from managed hives and repopulating the sites previously occupied, since swarms are attracted to these nest sites. However! There is ample evidence that feral populations begin to resurge after the initial wipe-out. Whether this is due to the development of resistant traits, or the evolution of host/guest equilibrium, I don't know. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:14:42 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Natural hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >...August... Caging queens during this period (14 days--followed by a quick feed (substitute & sugar soln) is showing promise in disrupting that rapid rise in mite numbers... Do you cage queens in shipping style cages or do you use larger cages that push into the comb and allow egg laying over a small area? If a queen could be caged for 21 days to allow the last bee to emerge, you could also treat with oxalic in August. You bee numbers might not be up to par for the goldenrod flow though... Waldemar ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:05:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Lackey, Raymond J (US SSA)" Subject: Re: Varroa - Are there any positives? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Are all ferals doomed?" =20 On Long Island, a mostly suburban, mixed small agriculture area, there seem to be a number of bee trees and swarms in houses/buildings to indicate that the feral colonies are continuing to reproduce and repopulate the area to some extent. We don't have statistics on how long these colonies live but they seem to live long enough to throw swarms to at least replace themselves. =20 "Are pollination services in greater demand?" =20 Depends on the crop. On long Island, orchards are small, seldom over ten acres. There are generally a lot of acres of potential housing for bees of many types within flight range of the orchards and if the weather is decent over bloom, feral bees are sufficient. The raspberry growers seem to feel they are necessary but they are getting smaller in size and they have little competition of other bloom. Labor is pushing them to Pick-your-own but the patches are getting smaller. It is the almost-retired farmers who are keeping these going. Our biggest pollination crop is pumpkins (agri-tainment in the fall with pumpkin picking, corn maze, hay ride, decorative corn shocks and mums 75 miles from NYC.) of 25 to 70 acres in an area but we have a native squash bee that meets the needs most years. Lack of honey bees may actually allow these bees to flourish without the competition. The growers don't necessarily need full pollination for size. They want a lot of round pumpkins. They are not convinced that pollination by honeybees yields a net profit. Even then, there are several growers in each area and they figure that if they spend money on bees, the neighbor benefits just as much. One grower told me that the Cooperative Extension agent had told him that honeybees would probably only pay for themselves in one out of seven years. His conclusion, not worth it, but he is happy to see bees in his patch, figuring someone around rented bees and he is getting the benefit. Anybody got an electric bee fence (Force field wall or dome) that is easily erected over a field? :-) =20 =20 Raymond J. Lackey - Sweet Pines Apiary mail: 1260 Walnut Avenue, Bohemia, NY 11716-2176=20 web page: http://www.tianca.com/tianca2.html email home: lackeyray@tianca.com =20 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 07:38:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike McDonald Subject: Re: Natural hives In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 2008-12-08 at 19:35 -0500, Peter L Borst wrote: > My question is what would be the effect of keeping hives in two or three > stories, encouraging swarming, and harvesting only small amounts of honey if > it is really "in the way". I recently acquired a hive that had been abandoned by the beekeeper about five years previously. The hives had been managed until the beekeeper, apparently, lost interest. The woodenware had fallen into disrepair. One of the two original colonies had died out. The property owner wanted the bees maintained to continue pollinating his apple orchard. The remaining colony was thriving. The hive was made of two deeps, a queen excluder and two shallow supers. The bees appear smaller than my other managed hives, I assume due to older comb. The hive was heavily propolized to compensate for the degrading woodenware. While a single colony is the farthest thing in the world from conclusive, it does make me think that there may be a viable solution to mite problems, that breeding better bees instead of making better treatments may be the way to go. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:15:49 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Natural hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...what would be the effect of keeping hives in two or three stories, encouraging swarming, and harvesting only small amounts of honey if it is really "in the way". Would be an interesting experiment in an unpopulated area. Here in suburbia, one would have the neighbors up in arms if swarms started moving into their homes. There was some talk here recently discrediting SC. I have a feeling the cell size gradation, clearly seen in feral comb, may be a factor that helps feral bees reduce the varroa effect. Dennis Murrell has seen it in his untreated TB hives. Waldemar ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 22:52:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Varroa - Are there any positives? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >Some say that varroa has a positive side to it. Some probably say the same about leprosy... I've been looking at varroa closely for twenty years, but can't see any positive side whatsoever. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:39:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Natural hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike McDonald wrote: >While a single colony is the farthest thing in the world from >conclusive, it does make me think that there may be a viable solution to >mite problems, that breeding better bees instead of making better >treatments may be the way to go. Well, by now everybody thinks that, but having seen these types of colonies pretty often, I am wondering if their survival has more to do with lack of management and/or isolation. This is not to belittle bee breeding, but it hasn't proved to be the full answer, yet. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:23:54 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Mite bite on bees may be the end of honey // Australia Comments: To: honey_australia@yahoogroups.com, honeybeeworld@honeybeeworld.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://wynnum-herald.whereilive.com.au/news/story/mite-bite-on-bees-may-be-the-end-of-honey/ AUSTRALIA'S honey bees are the last in the western world still protected from a deadly mite, but they are under threat of eradication with the mite on our doorstep. Local beekeeper groups and scientists from CSIRO and the Queensland Brain Institute (QBI) are worried the Varroa mite, fatal to the European honey bee, will soon enter Australia. And although it is not likely the entire bee population will become extinct, the environmental and economic impact would still be devastating. The mite kills and feeds off the blood of the European honey bee, which is responsible for the pollination of about 60 per cent of crops as well as producing honey in Australia. continue ... -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:21:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Daily hit of honey good for you, beekeepers hear Comments: To: honey_australia@yahoogroups.com, honeybeeworld@honeybeeworld.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstarphoenix/news/local/story.html?id=da914897-da5e-4908-91a7-709ff9367c7f&k=73339 A spoonful of honey brings metabolic stressors down and with it the chances of developing diseases such as diabetes, Alzheimer's and osteoporosis, says a leading honey researcher. Ron Fessenden, a retired physician and author from Denver, Colo., says the health benefits of honey are real and can be used to improve the health of the general public. Speaking on Tuesday at the Saskatchewan Beekeepers' Association convention in Saskatoon, Fessenden said honey lowers blood sugar levels, which reduces metabolic stress. "Honey actually has a very significant stabilizing affect on blood sugar, that's counter-intuitive to most individuals who think it's sort of like saying, 'Well, I'm going to eat some bacon to help control my cholesterol,' and that's not true about honey," he said. continue ... -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:29:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Manuka honey researcher breaks with industry's UMF body Comments: To: honey_australia@yahoogroups.com, honeybeeworld@honeybeeworld.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/5183668/manuka-honey-researcher-breaks-with-industrys-umf-body/ Industry infighting over how biologically active manuka honey should be measured and ranked are far from being resolved, with the tiff likely to get even more sticky. Ratings of the unique manuka factor (UMF) underpin domestic and export manuka honey markets worth more than $100 million a year, but have been caught up in a series of disputes. UMF ratings are based on measurement of the antibacterial activity of samples of honey to indicate how well it fights a wide range of very resistant bacteria. Manuka honey has proven effective against major wound-infecting bacteria and the bacteria which causes stomach ulcers. One company, Manuka Health NZ Ltd, has said objective measurement of the active ingredient methylglyoxal might be the best way to measure anti-bacterial strength. Now the industry's leading researcher, Dr Peter Molan -- who has said methylglyoxal is not a reliable indicator of anti-microbial activity -- has cut his ties to the body which holds the trademark for UMF ratings. Dr Molan last Thursday told honey companies in a personal email that he will no longer have anything to do with the Active Manuka Honey Association (AMHA). The association has 48 members, with 32 licensed to use its trademarked UMF ratings. "I hold the executive of AMHA responsible for my reaching this personal decision," Dr Molan said. AMHA chairwoman Moira Haddrell said she could not comment for legal reasons. Her chief executive John Rawcliffe also said he could not comment. Dr Molan, who has spent decades on the research underpinning the industry's sale of high-value biologically-active manuka honey to combat infections, said his employer Waikato University did not want to get involved in litigation, so he could only make personal comments. "Regrettably, I cannot specify why I am unhappy with the executive of AMHA," said Dr Molan. The AMHA was created only after Dr Molan was asked by Government trade officials to help set up an industry group for producers of active manuka honey. And the UMF testing on which it relies uses a method described by Dr Molan and other honey researchers at Waikato University in 1991. Dr Molan said in the NZ Beekeeper magazine in August that though researchers had developed further improvements to increase the reliability of the method , AMHA had not adopted these. "Since that article in the NZ Beekeeper was published, further developments have come from our research which will allow greatly improved reliability in the assay of the UMF and a much faster turn-around time in getting assays done," he said today. Research done at the honey research unit into the nature of the antibacterial substances has revealed why testing of some manuka honey gives only partial inhibition of bacteria. Scientists are now able to reliably assay such honeys in a way which will show the true full antibacterial activity. The intellectual property involved in these advances was controlled by Waikato University, he said. Manuka Health this year claimed UMF test variations had led to conflict between beekeepers and honey producers, by causing differences in payment of up to $2000 for a 300kg drum of honey. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:18:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Natural hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David said: > So, the question is what is cheaper in the long run, > to treat and not take the loss initially, or not > treat and incur the compounded expense of treating > to keep colonies alive artificially. This statement assumes that merely taking losses once will somehow provide one with bees resistant to all known diseases and pests in subsequent years. I'd offer that there is a very high probability that "taking the losses" will be required year after year after year and that both types of costs will "compound year after year". Dick Marron said: > ...bigger is different... When speaking of communicable diseases, it should be clear that more potential hosts per unit area increases the odds that disease will spread between all the hosts. That's not "different". That's "more of the same". I'm not sure if the relationship is linear, but there sure is a correlation. I think that the "two dozen hives per yard" rule of thumb has a basis in this specific performance curve. I don't know of any "emergent behavior" that appears when I take a yard from 6 hives to 12 or from 12 hives to 24. If physics had any help to offer to beekeepers, I'd be a much better beekeeper! :) Randy said: > What works at one scale may not > work at all at another scale. But this is a one-way street. Many things don't scale UP, but anything can scale DOWN. There are lots of practices that are too labor-intensive to scale up above 50, 100, or 250 hives, but there are zero practices from larger operations that don't "scale DOWN" to any/all of the smaller operations. Beekeepers fall into two camps - some moving very slowing out of respect for the bees, and the others moving as fast as possible out of respect for the bees. The first camp has time to sing to their bees, the second camp is gone before the bees even realize that they are in the yard. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:27:07 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "treat=". Rest of header flushed. From: Keith Cutting Subject: Re: Natural hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a huge silent group of part time beekeepers who do minimal=0Atreat= ment, and often minimal management, and have bees that survive pretty=0Awel= l.=0A=0AA opportunity for a comment by a part time hobby for profit beekeep= er.=0A=0AI maintain 25=A0 to 30 colonies as a part of our farm operations.= =A0 Prior to the early 90's and varroa my annual losses averaged a few colo= nies a year.=A0 Typically due to=A0poor beekeeping by me.=0A=0AAfter a coup= le of tough years 91' and 92' and my loss experiences in the mid to late 90= 's, I rewrote my beekeeping business plan to accommodate the 30% to 40% los= ses I was experiencing.=A0 Because of my small size I do not have the oppor= tunities to purchase discounts on volume, so my inputs are minimal.=A0 My m= anagement is not aggressive as alot of my time is spent in other ag activit= ies.=0A=0AGenerally, my surviving colonies are strong enough to make splits= to replace my losses.=A0 Only occasionally will I need to purchase a nuc o= r package.=0A=0ASo far I have been purchasing queens for my splits.=A0 This= past year will probably have been my last to do this.=A0 I am going to try= letting my splits raise their own queens.=A0 This is not something I reall= y want to do, but the queens I have been purchasing do not provide me with = surviving colonies.=A0 I have purchased queens from several sources. So I d= o not think it is a sole source problem.=0A=0AI live in zone 4 and the wint= er survivability of these purchased queens are almost nill.=A0 I have had o= ther regional large beek's tell me that the problem is mites.=A0 Seems the = common answer to all beekeeping problem today is mites.=A0 I do have mite p= roblems, everyone does.=A0 My yards are a combination of surviving colonies= and my new splits.=A0 The mite loads, treatments and management levels are= similar to all the colonies in a common yard.=0A=0AI am not a academic bee= k.=A0 As Sarah would say I'm only a average Joe beek.=0A=0Akeith ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:20:08 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Fact-Check for "Truth Check" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I asked Nicola Bradbear of Bees for Development about the purity of beeswax from the poorer countries of the World. This is what she has to say: "I am working in India and without good internet access: in brief, the EU imports wax from Africa - it is coming from rural areas (non industrialised) of countries where there are healthy stocks of bees, without introduced diseases and predators. It is very clean and excellent beeswax with no residues of bee medicines or other environmental contaminants." Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:30:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Natural hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim said:>>>> I don't know of any "emergent behavior" that appears when I take a yard from 6 hives to 12 or from 12 hives to 24. If physics had any help to offer to beekeepers, I'd be a much better beekeeper! <<<<<< How about death. I admit it's a bit poetic to think of death as a behavior but it is not unknown in other species. If you form a rat hotel and crowd them enough certain behaviors emerge. Mating rituals are absent and when a female does give birth the young aren't cared for. This is a behavior that emerge from crowding. I'm not seriously going to defend this idea but let's think it first. Bee behavior of the same sort could still be invisible for us. I'm not sure physics transfers to every situation but logic does. The data is, bees die better in large groups. Jim said further: >>>>> But this is a one-way street. Many things don't scale UP, but anything can scale DOWN.<<<<<< Sorry Jim, Let me borrow from animal behavior again. To escape predators many species just run. (Others freeze). If said species is a herd animal or a school of fish this activity is much different in a substantial group than it is when the prey is alone. Prey in these species run in circles, constantly circling back to the crowd. This confuses and tires predators as they have difficulty singling out a specific prey animal. In birds this is called "flocking." I'd like to know how this scales down. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:06:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Varroa - Are there any positives? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >I believe the ferals can be wiped out again by overstocking the area with > colonies that reach high varroa loads in late summer and collapse. This is my observation, too. >5 year average crop up to before Varroa was 8,781 tonnes 5 year average crop up to and including 2008 crop is 10,208 tonnes In the U.S., beekeeping was easy for several years after varroa was discovered, while the first round of miticides worked. It hasn't been as much fun since. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:00:34 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Varroa - Are there any positives? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Are all ferals doomed? No. While there will always be a potential debate about the origin of the feral (some pre-existing genetic group vs. beekeeeper swarms) colonies, my feral removal activity is increasing every year. Some of it has to do with a growing reputation ("My son-in-law said you did a nice job removing his bees. Can you please come and remove mine?") but I do notice significantly more bees on wild flowers where ever I go in my area. With the media coverage of CCD, there is more interest in hobby beekeeping but I do believe the feral population is growing and starting to stabilize in pocket areas. I say this because I can split up "my territory" into smaller regions based on what kind of colonies I've collected there. Some regions have very healthy, vigrant feral bees. Others have colonies that are barely hanging on (delta wings on adult bees, young bees on the comb with shriveled wings etc.) The feral population does not exist in a bell jar. Feral virgins mate with drones from managed colonies as well as feral ones. If beekeepers use "resistant" queens their genetics enter the feral pool and the natural selection process without treatments. Nature should be a better selector for survival than just about any beekeeper since "management and subjective selection criteria" do not come into play. This may be at a price in honey production perhaps (a key selection criterium for beekeepers). >Are pollination services in greater demand? I can't say. Some owners will pay for pollination. Others say "I have some 10 acres in pumpkins and you can keep your bees on the edge of my field year round for free." I stay away from pollination. Have seen too many hives weakened by being too close to ag insecticides. I also am not sure pumpkins benefit from having additional hives brought in since the local farmers sell pumkins mostly for fall decorating. Pumpkins are sold per unit, not per pound. We have healthy bumble bee population and I always see honey bees in the blossoms. I also raise some pumpkins for family use (both the meat and the seeds) and think better pollination [with honey bees for instances] helps with the fruit size and the number of seeds. Waldemar ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:05:43 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Varroa - Are there any positives? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I've been looking at varroa closely for twenty years, but can't see any positive side whatsoever. I tend to think the same. If we ultimately come out with bees that will handle varroa better due to, say, enhanced hygienic behavior or better immune response to vectored pathogens, this may help with foulbrood etc. This would be very welcome but at what cost in selection/breeding. Waldemar ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:42:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Mite bite on bees may be the end of honey // Australia In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10812100823y3d63b19k4b67d963a18a3ed9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Juanse & All, > Local beekeeper groups and scientists from CSIRO and the Queensland Brain > Institute (QBI) are worried the Varroa mite, fatal to the European honey > bee, will soon enter Australia. Only now getting worried? One of the largest commercial beeks in Australia has traveled to my house three different times and spent several days each trip. His main reason is to learn ways to survive varroa and last trip nosema ceranae. My beekeeper friends in Hawaii I believe really thought they would never get varroa. At least my beekeeper friends in Australia are not so naive. A saying in the game of "Chess": Never underestimate your opponent" Underestimate control of varroa and varroa will cost you half your bees the first go around. Commercial beeks need to get a approved product for varroa control in advance of arrival. If U.S. beeks made a mistake other than underestimating varroa it was not having at least two approved mitacides ready for use when varroa arrived ( notice I did not say *if*). I still ponder why beeks in the U.S. lost half their bees when tracheal mites arrived and then half when varroa arrived. Beeks around the world had been fighting varroa for many years and many forms of control were known about. Consider: Varroa had been in those hives for around 3 years in Hawaii before found.(source USDA-ARS) Check your hives yourself for varroa. Try to catch varroa early. Once varroa is found your management has to change. At first varroa is very lethal in bees which have never seen a varroa mite. We treated three times a year at first and reinfestation killed many a hive even after we had just finished a treatment. I had trouble and I had studied varroa and control for over ten years before the first varroa was found in the U.S.. I had many friends which took Grandpa beeks advice and let the susceptible die off and breed from survivors. Doing so drove most into bankruptcy or cost a large sum of money to rebuild. Many found raising queens was not as easy *large scale* as they had thought. Every commercial beek in Australia should by now have a plan of action if (when) varroa is found in Australia. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:06:11 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Varroa - Are there any positives? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I've been looking at varroa closely for twenty years, but can't see any > positive side whatsoever. 99% eradication of wild colonies. Some beekeepers are happy, because breeding your own stock is now easier. Not my personal view, but can understand their happiness Ari Sepp�l� ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:53:41 +1100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Geoff Manning Subject: Re: Varroa - Are there any positives? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "waldig@netzero.net" < > The feral population does not exist in a bell jar. Here in Australia they appear to do just that. Work dome by IIRC Dr Ben Oldroyd showed that the feral population was self perpetuating. In Australia at least, this is not all that surprising. Typically a beekeeper moves hives in the late winter/early spring to build conditions on agricultural land. Here bees may indeed swarm, but there are limited places by definition. The beekeeper will then move to timbered country for honey. Almost no swarming on the honey flow and should it fail, certainly no swarming. There will hopefully be a few moves to other honey flows before moving back to the build country. Being Australia there are occasionally exceptions to this pattern, but it is still true to say that most beekeepers, most years will follow this scenario. In other words there are limited opportunities for managed hives to contribute to the large feral population. The feral population will tend to only reach swarming strength after the managed hives, particularly in forested areas. The requirements for feral and managed hives are of course different as well. A feral colony needs a comparatively small cavity, and must live the whole year on whatever floral sources are available nearby. A managed colony on the other hand will be taken to where the pollen and nectar are (hopefully) abundant during this same twelve months. The beekeeper will also practise some husbandry to help the bees achieve the large populations needed to gather the large amounts of nectar needed in a farming venture. Geoff Manning ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:18:57 +1100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Geoff Manning Subject: Re: Varroa - Are there any positives? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Bray" > In Australia, one significant advantage would be the elimination of > ferals. As I understand it, the claim is that feral honeybees > inhabit available nesting sites and compete with Australian native > animals, birds etc and thus upset the natural order of things. It is > hypothesised that these same ferals preferentially pollinate some > species over others again upsetting the natural order..... This is > a key (if not THE key plank) in the environmentalists' argument that > is having Australian beehives thrown out of National Parks, Forestry > and Wilderness areas. > Varroa will eliminate these ferals (and their replacements from > commercial apiaries) and this may negate the environmental argument > that is causing so much angst there. The evidence from elsewhere is that the ferals will bounce back. I will happily live without varroa thank you. The above is certainly the argument used by many conservationists. However there is scant evidence to support the claims. Work on nest hollows by Oldroyd showed that there were more than enough hollows where land had not been cleared. My own personal observations agree with this. It is unlikely that honeybees compete for resources, in that here we tend to a boom and bust environment, more than enough, or none. Work by Sugden showed that there was an increase in the one native bee he studied. He suggested that the reason may have been that the introduced (by helicopter) hives provided more food for insectivorous birds, cutting down on bird predation on the natives. In another study in South Australia on banksias, the researcher, although starting off very negative to honeybees, came to the conclusion that because the native pollinators had been reduced in numbers due to land clearing for agriculture, bees were now a positive for banksia pollination. In Australia, fire,or indeed lack of it, is the driver of most of the natural environment. Geoff Manning ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 05:05:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Study to Determine if Honey Prevents Radiation Therapy Mouth Sores Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Note: this article is not available online at the newspaper's website. It is only available on www.apitherapynews.com Study to Determine if Honey Prevents Radiation Therapy Mouth Sores Research on Manuka Honey Effect on Ulcers Aim to Reduce Oral Problems in Cancer Patients By Elspeth Mclean, Otago Daily Times (New Zealand), 12/11/2008 http://tinyurl.com/5vj86a "A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down," so the song goes, but for some Dunedin cancer patients next year, three spoonfuls of honey a day will be part of the medicine. They will be taking part in research to determine if Manuka honey can ease the effects of radiation therapy. The study, based on a two-year randomised trial, will involve 120 patients in Dunedin, Wellington and Palmerston North who are receiving radiation therapy for head and neck cancers. Principal investigator, University of Otago senior lecturer in the department of radiation therapy (Wellington) Dr Patries Herst said mouth ulcers were a common side-effect from radiation treatment… ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:22:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Law Subject: Mercy Kits > Beehive Kit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Interesting concept but what about the required skills? http://www.mercycorps.org/mercykits/927?source=13103&gclid=CK2GxqzGuJcCFQUWGgodvTQVSg -- Dennis Law ( aka Paul D. Law ) Brooklyn South Community Emergency Response Team Logistics Section ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:39:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: Re: Natural hives In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) >Do you cage queens in shipping style cages or do you use larger cages that push into the comb and allow egg laying over a small area? If a queen could be caged >for 21 days to allow the last bee to emerge, you could also treat with oxalic in August. You bee numbers might not be up to par for the goldenrod flow though... Waldemar I would love to cage them longer but I need to get a fall crop & perhaps more importantly I need brood rearing to kick up enough to support production of "fat" winter bees. I need to read mite numbers, adjust for flows, and weather to optimize impact on mites without hurting colonies--I also look at my day job schedule & see what I can fit in!!!! I use a push on cage that is about 3x5--my father in law found about 50 really nice ones at a barn sale some years back that work the best. But I have some others made of hardware cloth. I'm also finding that strains of bees that shut down brood rearing during a dearth may have a similar effect to caging as brood reduction equals a dip in overall mite numbers. I'm playing around with this but do not have an overall handle on breeding in this component--I am able to select parent colonies for grafting --I do not have the numbers or time to do a great job of breeding. --------------------------------------------- With global spread of everything--tracheal mite, Varroa, virus, N. ceranae, Virri & potentially AHB genes (we get bees coming into NY from Flarida) and I bet we see more in the next few years--The entire ecology of the hive is altered. We cannot go back. Its interesting that I have heard people start to acknowledge that there is more in a hive than just the castes of bees. Varroa is the other common occupant! Are we finally getting over denial! Natural just cannot cut it as beekeeping is not --the pressures & goals ,of keeping bees as a beekeeper, are not the same as what a wild swarm in a tree in Arnot Forest experience. Beekeepers can affect the out come of an extreme drought/dearth by feeding. We tend to group colonies, in apiaries , in much higher denisties than in the wild-- thats worked for hundreds of years, and management--not just chemicals has made this possible. I believe that intervention with cultural controls (best one is breeding/selecting) and managing a combination of production hives, building nucs, and first year colonies can be an operational component that can be scaled up (to a point) in a commercial operation to minimize the use of chems. Mike ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:15:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Natural hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A word of warning on push in cages it allows the queen to lay and also allows the SHB to lay no bees to protect the comb, can loose a queen to beetle larva. Harper's Honey Farm Charles Harper charlie@russianbreeder.org labeeman@russianbreeder.com (337) 298 6261 Griggs Mike wrote: > > I use a push on cage that is about 3x5--my father in law found about 50 > really nice ones at a barn sale some years back that work the best. But > I have some others made of hardware cloth. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:40:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Feral colonies. Was varroa positives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >The feral population does not exist in a bell jar. No forms of life do (unless they happen to be placed into a bell jar). > > >Here in Australia they appear to do just that. And elsewhere, too (see Clinal geographic variation in feral honey bees in California, USA , Apidologie 22, also data from Turkey). It is pretty clear that feral populations can maintain independent genetic identity despite the influx of managed populations. The reason is simple: nature selects mercilessly against alleles nonadaptive to the local weather, seasons, flora, and parasites, and on the other hand incorporates without bias any new adaptive alleles. The end result is that once a feral population is established (remember that honey bees are an invasive species in the U.S.), it will begin immediately to evolve to be most successful under the local conditions. The Calif study found that the genotypes in the various climes in Calif matched the genotypes of bees found in similar climates in their native Europe--no surprise! As Geoff says, drones and swarms are only released by managed colonies at certain times of the year, so the feral population will not receive genetic input from managed bees at other times. But how about the swarms and drones that are released? You might think of them as being analogous to hatchery raised trout that are released into streams in "put and take" stocking programs. The chances of a released hatchery trout surviving for more than a few days are minimal. In a normal stream, the existing native, or previously introduced feral, trout already have filled all the best eddies (critical to survival) and already eat most of the available food. Plus they are adapted for life in the wild, as opposed to the regular feedings in hatchery raceways. The net result is that there is little genetic change in a stream's trout population due to introduced hatchery fish that were raised in managed raceways, fed artificial feeds, and enjoyed parasite suppression by antibiotics. Sound familiar? However, the introduced trout are notorious for introducing new parasites to wild populations. Bee populations will quickly incorporate any new alleles that add to their success, and lose any that don't, as evidenced by the gene flow from European stock to African in the New World, and vice versa. The swarms that do issue from managed bees have little chance of survival in any environment that already has a healthy population of feral bees, and therefore would be unlikely the next season to issue either swarms or drones. Any nonadaptive genes that do make it into the feral population would be bred out in the next several generations. However, when varroa depopulates a feral population, the influx of swarms from managed bees can greatly slow the natural selection for a mite resistant new population. This is because the escaped managed bees face little competition in this temporary condition of an environment depauperate of bees, and can survive until varroa builds up to levels that cause the colony to collapse (since most managed bees do not exhibit enough resistance to varroa). At that point, they than are extremely detrimental to the recovering feral population, since they contribute a major mite load to the ferals that rob them. This situation was avoided in the Gottland Island experiment, since mite-infested colonies died during freezing weather, which killed the mites before they could be robbed. In summary, I find the argument that feral populations are simply managed bees that have moved to the trees uncompelling, and not supported by the data that I've seen. Randy Oliver, apologizing for the long post ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:09:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: CCD and Ferals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar, Dee and a few others said they thought "the feral population is growing". Could this mean CCD is not substantially affecting ferals? Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:26:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Feral colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit randy oliver wrote: >In summary, I find the argument that feral populations are simply managed >bees that have moved to the trees uncompelling, and not supported by the >data that I've seen. Well, not simply. Nothing is ever simple! This from a poster presented at the Annual Meeting of the Entomological Society of America, 2008: > The genetic composition of 692 feral honey bee nests collected in the United States between 1980 and 1992 was analyzed by assessing variation in the COICOII intergenic spacer region of the mitochondrial DNA and 10 microsatellite loci. > The genetic diversity and population structure of these pooled populations were compared to that of managed breeding populations in the southeastern and western U.S. The mtDNA analysis revealed that 28% of the feral samples had haplotype patterns representative of the subspecies Apis mellifera mellifera or Apis mellifera iberiensis. > Of the samples collected from Arizona, over 50% showed a haplotype pattern characteristic of honey bees found in Spain and/or Italy (M7). A subset of samples from the feral population with the M7 haplotype were sequenced and shown to be previously unknown variants of M7. These variants differed from the M7a and M7b variants known from Spain and Italy, respectively, leaving their origin unknown. > Haplotype patterns characteristic of the European races most commonly used by commercial queen breeders were found in 66% of the feral samples. Source Deborah A. Delaney, North Carolina State University, Raleigh, NC Walter S. Sheppard, Washington States University, Pullman, WA * * * How a population could maintain genetic integrity was described by Jamie Strange: A population of honey bees (Apis mellifera mellifera L.) with an annual colony brood cycle adapted to a locally abundant floral source in the Landes region of Southwest France is the subject of genetic conservation efforts. This population is maintained by local beekeepers in an area that experiences both an annual seasonal influx of non-local colonies and the permanent culture of imported stock. However, some colonies native to the Landes do not have the adapted brood cycle and their status as ecotypic are in question. Morphological and molecular characterization of the Landes honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) ecotype for genetic conservation James P. Strange Lionel Garnery Walter S. Sheppard ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:38:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: CCD and Ferals In-Reply-To: <4941F1EC.6152@saber.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Waldemar, Dee and a few others said they > thought "the feral population is growing". I would love to see more data on that assumption. My "trial" this spring showed zero ferals in my area where there had been beekeepers for may years. But that is just one data point added to the two others above, actually one since AHB areas do not count. The obvious conclusion from "the feral population is growing" is we have a resistant bees so our problems are over. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 07:23:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: van Westendorp report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In the November Bee Scene (British Columbia), From Bee Scene, Paul van Westendorp gave an interesting report of the findings from his lab in Canada this year. The highlights that caught my attention: The lab found no correlation between nosema and viruses. N ceranae declined during summer, sometimes to undetectable levels. N ceranae appeared to be no more harmful to bees than N apis. They could find no positve correlation between varroa levels and viruses. "In fact, many colonies that ...tested positive for IAPV or KBV had low or nontectectable Varroa mite infestation levels." Is this all becoming clear to everyone? Sure isn't to me! Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:04:00 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: CCD and Ferals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/12/2008 15:51:58 GMT Standard Time, bathbeekeeper@GMAIL.COM writes: My "trial" this spring showed zero ferals in my area How did you make the trial? Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:59:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: CCD and Ferals In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > How did you make the trial? Different bait locations of sugar water, honey. and combs with honey. And watched. Zero honey bees but lots of bumblebees. and yellow jackets. After I got my bees the bait locations were flooded with honey bees. This was my first year with no bees in 17 years so decided to see if there were ferals in the area. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:13:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: van Westendorp report In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10812120723g78a56ac8t8224c7936e8bc54c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline They could find no positve correlation between varroa levels and viruses. > "In fact, many colonies that ...tested positive for IAPV or KBV had low or > nontectectable Varroa mite infestation levels." > > Is this all becoming clear to everyone? Sure isn't to me! Virus have always been detectable in bees, even before tracheal and Varroa, but they were not a problem.They were a "lab curiosity" So you can have virus and no problem. The correlation is the wrong way. Is there a correlation between the combination of Varroa and virus and also between Varroa and other pathogens and colony death? Obviously there is. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:55:37 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: CCD and Ferals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/12/2008 18:01:44 GMT Standard Time, bathbeekeeper@GMAIL.COM writes: Different bait locations of sugar water, honey. and combs with honey. Donovan, in his book on bee lining, recommends warming the honey. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:33:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: van Westendorp report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Eric Mussen wrote, back in 1998 > The mortality associated with mite feeding appears to be pretty much a mite vectored, viral disease problem. However, as in most biological cases, the story is not simply black and white. Some colonies with high virus levels survive while others don't. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:41:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: CCD and Ferals In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > Donovan, in his book on bee lining, recommends warming the honey. For as long as they were out in the sun, they were warm. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:43:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: van Westendorp report Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit randy oliver wrote: >They could find no positve correlation between varroa levels and viruses. This would be in contradiction to a mountain of evidence: Large mite populations have been responsible for vectoring bee viruses between honey bees. The viruses, which previously spread relatively slowly and caused colony mortality extremely rarely, are now thought to be responsible for the world-wide death of millions of mite-infested honey bee colonies. from: The dynamics of virus epidemics in Varroa-infested honey bee colonies D. J. T. SUMPTER and S. J. MARTIN ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 22:20:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] Mercy Kits > Beehive Kit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -----Original Message----- From: Erin Martin [mailto:froufroufoxes@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 4:06 PM Heifer International does something similar, and they have workers teach recipients the skills. It looks like Mercy Corps does this as well. If you read below in "Angela's Story," the text says: "Last June, Mercy Corps showed Angela and 11 other women how to become beekeepers and supplied them with materials for 20 hives. The group responded by harvesting 5,000 Quetzales (about US$700) worth of honey in the first year." So it sounds like a great service for bees and people alike, and also a good Christmas gift to give in a bee-lover's name. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:32:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: CCD and Ferals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While it is clear that NYC is an exceptionally "isolated" area for bees, free on most of the known pests and pathogens that are common in most beekeeping areas, I have bee-lined 4 hives in Central Park, and know that there is at least one more that I have not yet pinned down. > Donovan, in his book on bee lining, recommends warming the honey. In a dearth, one need not even warm the honey. In a bloom, warming will not help at all. Donovan was yet another pre-varroa bee-liner, and his "methods" were absolutely dependent on the large number of feral hives. In short, the bulk of what passes for bee-lining "technique" can be directly replaced with tossing rocks in random directions. In pre-varroa days, a randomly tossed rock was very likely to "find" a hive. Given that CCD is clearly caused by multiple invasive exotic pathogens, it is not at all surprising that isolated hives and areas "off the beaten path" to be as CCD-free as they are varroa-free and Nosema-free. Nothing spreads diseases and pests of bees around like bees on the move. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 18:02:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Natural hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike said: > We tend to group colonies, in apiaries , in much higher denisties > than in the wild-- thats worked for hundreds of years, and > management--not just chemicals has made this possible. Much longer than hundreds of years - thousands. I'd call 75-100 hives in one yard a "high-density apiary". Better yet, it was even an "urban" apiary, right in town. http://www.rehov.org/bee.htm http://tinyurl.com/6oftdo or http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/03/AR2008090303 624.html I think it should be clear that in the 10th Century BCE, any "management" could only be described as "rudimentary" at best. It certainly is true that invasive exotic pests and disease pathogens can rip through a larger yard, but this is a very very recent phenomena, unprecedented in the history of beekeeping, a direct result of faster and more ubiquitous international trade and freight. The closer we look, the more evidence we have that the history of beekeeping is longer than history itself. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 19:12:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Stewart Subject: Re: CCD and Ferals In-Reply-To: <8c0381120812120638l74debcaewc718b94c4824a9af@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have no scientific proof. I am on swarm call and removal lists for the Cincinnati and Souther Wester Ohio region. During our local swarm season (two weeks to either side of Mother's Day, depending on the weather) I received 12 swarm calls. I also received 8 calls regarding cut-outs (something I think we will see more of as the housing collapse and foreclosures run their course). The kicker though was in September. The remnants of Hurricane Ike rolled through and I received 32 different calls regarding bees in trees or damaged homes (roof lines mainly). All but three were indeed honey bees. So I think 29 calls seemed a good sign to me. Not good for them but proof that in an urban environment bees seemed to have been doing quite well. Where there is smoke there is fire and while these bees all died (the amount of damage was quite amazing and expected for 80 to 90 MPH sustained winds in some cases) I am sure there are other colonies in trees and in homes. There were other calls to other beekeepers who also dealt with the problem (though I believe there are only a half dozen of us that do this sort of service in the region). Again, certainly not scientific proof, but in my little world it seems like ferals or how ever you would define non-managed individual colonies seem to be in abundance at some level here. Richard Stewart Carriage House Farm North Bend, Ohio An Ohio Century Farm Est. 1855 (513) 967-1106 http://www.carriagehousefarmllc.com rstewart@zoomtown.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:18:11 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: CCD and Ferals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Could this mean CCD is not substantially affecting ferals? I have not heard of or seen any CCD in ferals. I have also not heard of CCD in managed colonies in suburbia in my area. CCD may need crowding or being close to crowded apiaries to spread after the bees become weakened by other agents (mites, ag chems etc.) [In humans, infectious diseases declined dramatically by the 1940's (US gov't statistics) when crowding in the cities eased up, water was treated, and food refrigeration & better food standards make for a healthier environment.] Ferals by their nature are spread far apart - I did remove 3 colonies out of single cinder block wall last summer but that was a rare exception - and, at least in suburbia, are not subjected to massive or systemic insecticides. This is my guess since I don't know for sure exceeding what tipping point(s) bring on CCD. Other than the 3 feral colonies (not the ones from the cinder block wall) last year that had quite a few mites, the rest have been very healthy, vibrant, and content (gentle). The 3 with the mites may have been swarms from managed colonies (?) as they did have different coloration (more of the Italian look). The best feral have more darker bees and the very best have had black drones. Waldemar ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 00:43:34 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Feral colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Haplotype patterns characteristic of the European races most commonly used by commercial queen breeders were found in 66% of the feral samples. No doubt, ferals absorb traits/genes of bees from breeders' bees if they are advantageous in the local area. If local beekeepers select well queens from breeders for their area, those genes will enter and be propagated in the feral population as well. On the other hand, in analyzing feral adoptations, I would want to know first the ratio of ferals to managed colonies. If you have, say, one feral colony to 30 managed, I think the managed genes will dominate unless the environment harshly selects them out because they are ill suited for that area. In fact, the influx of managed genes, if ill suited, can doom the local ferals! I once reviewed the geographic spread of my club's beekeeper members and their reported numbers of colonies to create a mental picture of the managed landscape. [While not all beekeepers are members of the club,] I was puzzled to find most feral colonies in areas not known to have beekeepers. Areas with lots of large diameter trees yielded removal calls very consistantly [although the removals were mostly from homes]. Frankly, I can't say with certainty what is the primary force driving the feral population... There are several of us doing removals in the area so the ferals are taken out to a large extent I'd think. [There seems to be no tolerance for bees in suburban homes.] Despite that, when revisiting areas were I had done removals, I see bees on blossoms! Furthermore, I maintain, evaluate, and propagate from the collected ferals so their genes are not eliminated. My best deduction is that it's a see saw. Following mild winters, I think ferals swarm, populate areas, and perhaps dominate the feral gene pool. Following harsh winters, many less ferals survive and are in a position to swarm. Then, managed colonies' contribution to the feral gene pool may be dominant. This assumes managed colonies are better prepared for overwintering by beekeepers than ferals but the opposite may be true (honey is not taken away from the ferals and their nests are undisturbed in the months prior to winter). To find correlations and some good answers, one would have to study specific areas over many seasons. I am not aware of anyone who has done that - except for Tom Seeley and if I recall correctly his forest was not surrounded by hundreds of managed hives. My observations do not paint a complete picture. Waldemar ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:07:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: CCD and Ferals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Wrote: I would love to see more data on that assumption. My "trial" this spring showed zero ferals in my area where there had been beekeepers for may years.-- -----> Not sure that the trial shows that there are 'zero ferals' in the area. The trial only shows 'zero ferals visited the bait station'. It wouldn�t be fair to assume more than that from the trial. Best Wishes, Joe ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 18:24:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Carniolan, Caucasian or Russian In-Reply-To: <49412E9D.9090904@russianbreeder.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The question below was posted on another honey bee list and I thought it ra= ther intriguing.=A0 Would any of you happen to be able to shed some light o= n this question?=A0=A0 Mike in LA .. .....=A0=A0 But at times I've encountered some good dark strains which I ca= n't differentiate from carniolan or caucasian.=A0=A0 Russian bees look the = same as these 2 to me. So what I'm wondering is whether anyone has done the= genetic research or can otherwise demonstrate that there are differences t= hat make the Russian strain unique. =20 =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:47:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Natural hives In-Reply-To: <000601c95aeb$638d2a60$0501000a@j> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10-Dec-08, at 12:18 PM, James Fischer wrote: > > There are lots of practices that are too > labor-intensive to scale up above 50, 100, or > 250 hives, but there are zero practices from > larger operations that don't "scale DOWN" to > any/all of the smaller operations. > Hi Jim and all Barrel feeding, which has recently been blamed by some for helping to spread disease etc, makes no sense in a two hive apiary, or 10. Baggie feeding in the hive, normally used by small beekeepers only, ensuring treatments(fumagillin) are taken by individual hives are starting to be seen by larger operators as worth the extra labour. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:07:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Varroa - Are there any positives? In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10812092252r64eb5e09o5cf3914de055476c@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10-Dec-08, at 1:52 AM, randy oliver wrote: >> >>> Some say that varroa has a positive side to it. > > > Hi All Just returned from the CHC, CAPA, OBA convention in Niagara Falls Ontario Canada. The "V words" (virus, varroa) were certainly high on the topic list. The only advantage I could see to varroa in Oz would be a decrease in beekeeper migration to Australia from varroa infested parts of the world. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 01:04:02 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: CCD and Ferals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> thought "the feral population is growing". >I would love to see more data on that assumption. This is not an assumption but an observation by me and others in my area. My experiences are post-varroa. Some others have been doing removals for some 20 years. They say removal calls dwindled with the varroa arrival. They have also been seeing a big increase in removal calls in the last 3-4 years. One of them, the most experienced and probably most frequently called, has established a separate yard for his collected ferals. He has never treated that yard and says they are making it from year to year and takes honey from them. >>My "trial" this spring showed zero ferals in my area where there had been beekeepers for may years. Your area need not be representative of others. One could speculate that as one goes further north the feral population may be smaller and take longer to recover with the mites taxing them more in a harsher climate. >>But that is just one data point added to the two others above, actually one since AHB areas do not count. I'd think they do count. Genes enter [and leave] feral pools all the time. AHB and others. This is not a clear cut scenario. >>The obvious conclusion from "the feral population is growing" is we have a resistant bees so our problems are over. Can't draw this sort of conclusion at all. However, since beekeepers are buying queens claimed to be resistant or hygienic, these genes are entering the ferals. I hope the breeders are making good progress! All I can say is that it's very encouraging to get an increasing number of removal calls every year. I have never seen a marked feral queen and I have never seen foulbrood in ferals. Both, in my opinion, derive from managed colonies. And, in spite of my early expectations, I don't get very many calls from regions with the largest concentrations of managed colonies. Waldemar ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 01:29:01 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: van Westendorp report Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>They could find no positve correlation between varroa levels and viruses. ... Is this all becoming clear to everyone? Sure isn't to me! In statistics, they stress that correlation does not mean causation. :) I think we still have some way to go before we know more. Waldemar ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:50:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: CCD and Ferals In-Reply-To: <8c0381120812120638l74debcaewc718b94c4824a9af@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline > > >I would love to see more data on that assumption [the feral population i= s > growing]. One is by Jose Villa, Ann. Entomol. Soc. Am. 101(5): 867=D0871 (2008) I believe already discussed on the List. More data in the literature cited. Bill, I hear anecdotally of rebounds elsewhere, and see them come and go in my area. However, there are still forested areas not a half hour's drive from my apiaries that lack ferals or escapees. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:28:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Dan_Smith?= Subject: Questions about - Producing Varroa-tolerant Honey Bees from Locally Adapted Stock: A Recipe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've been lurking here for a while. This is my first post. I want to know if any of you have tried this 'recipe' and what were your results? http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/varroatolerantbee.htm Thanks, Dan ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 06:20:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Carniolan, Caucasian or Russian In-Reply-To: <988993.63698.qm@web53402.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What Can Molecular Genetics Do For You???Lanie Bourgeois USDA/ARS Honey Bee Breeding, Genetics and Physiology Unit Baton Rouge, Louisiana She has a test that is 90%+ accurate at this time for determine Russian or non Russian. Harper's Honey Farm Charles Harper charlie@russianbreeder.org labeeman@russianbreeder.com (337) 298 6261 Mike Stoops wrote: > So what I'm wondering is whether anyone has done the genetic research or can otherwise demonstrate that there are differences that make the Russian strain unique. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:09:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Huge Beekeeping Website MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I don't remember if I posted this link before, but this is a fantastic resource. It is mostly in Spanish, but English readers will find much to look at, especially at the second link. http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/wiki/index.php/Portada http://tinyurl.com/56p9nb -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:24:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Questions about - Producing Varroa-tolerant Honey Bees from Locally Adapted Stock: A Recipe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > In the November 1998 issue of The American Bee Journal (pp. 828-832) we reported the results for the first two years of our effort to develop a Varroa-tolerant population of honey bees (Erickson et. al., 1998). We demonstrated that it is relatively easy to find Varroa-tolerant colonies among those in managed apiaries, and to propagate and maintain Varroa-tolerant honey bees in the absence of other mite control measures. Also reported were corroborating data obtained from collateral studies which clearly showed that some beekeepers/bee breeders are currently doing this. In this brief article we provide an update on the continuing research. Our methods remain unchanged from those first reported except that we now sample the colonies less frequently. > 0ur 65 colony Varroa-tolerant study population is composed of colonies of both European and African descent and their hybrids (virtually all of Arizona is colonized by Africanized honey bees). -- Varroa-Tolerant Honey Bees Are a Reality. by E. H. ERICKSON, A. H. ATMOWIDJOJO, and L. H. HINES. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:40:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Carniolan, Caucasian or Russian Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Researchers have been persistent in studying Russian bees since they were first imported by Rinderer. Jose Villa, ARS entomologist, uncovered the bees' secret in fighting off the tracheal mites. In addition, Villa and Lilia De Guzman, another ARS entomologist, have confirmed that Russian bees are well versed to survive cold weather. After studying bee colonies for five winters in northeast Iowa, Villa and De Guzman found the Russian bees are less likely than other bees to lose hive members as a result of harsh, cold weather. Perhaps, according to Villa and De Guzman, this is because Russian bees are more frugal with their winter food supplies. from "Russian bees resistant to parasitic mites" by Amanda Davenport www.brownfieldnetwork.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:59:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kirk_Jones?= Subject: hivastan...is this a valid workable varroa tool Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, I read about the new mite control product, Hivastan, about a year ago. The active ingredient is fenpyroximate. As a beek who is responsible to not only support my family, but many others in our organization, (and let's not forget our responsibility as beeks to keep the bees alive and healthy), I have consider any tools at my disposal. I have read that the active ingredient is put into a form of patty to be set in the hive. My understanding is that the bees remove the patty as a foreign object and while doing so, spread the miticide which contacts the varroa mites and incapacitates them. I have yet to speak with anyone with firsthand knowledge and direct experience. Has anyone on the Bee-l have anything to share? Kirk ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:04:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re: natural hives In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 18:02:55 -0500 >From: James Fischer >Much longer than hundreds of years - thousands. >I'd call 75-100 hives in one yard a "high-density apiary". >Better yet, it was even an "urban" apiary, right in town. Yup man has been keeping them for a very long time. I was keeping to the present as a 100 traditional log hives (dejebbah) in N.. Africa for example just do not have the colony size or numbers as a single apiary of 50 hives. I spend about three years as a Peace Corps volunteer in beekeeping in Tunisia. I was in the mountains (Tell Bee) working with farmers that had bees--usually the grandfather. They had the traditional log hives. And already had Varroa (probably brought into the country from Yugoslavia by commercial beekeepers importing stock down in the citrus groves near the N. coast) anyhow One of the bigger traditional farmers I met had a stack of over two hundred hives. The stacks were covered with hay to provide protection from water in the winter & the heat of the N. African summers. Rarely were all the hives full ( a cylinder 9-12 inches X tree foot long) and even if they were there would not be the numbers of bees or harvest seen from a modern hive. Don't openly dismiss the management skills beekeepers from whatever era. One thing that really impressed me was that these old Hadj's (old gentleman beekeepers) was their insight into bees. They probably could not read or write but their observations were dead on. They could observe the entrance & identify the health of a colony & determine if it was queen right, diseased or identify wether a flow was on etc. They had the time to lounge amongst the bees & watch & ponder-something that we do nt have the luxury of today. I know I don't. They were also beekeepers in every sense, trying new & innovative activities like feeding--dryed milk or powdered chickpeas. Not knowing the science behind it, they understood the colony needed additional protein, not just sugar. Their management usually revolved around catching swarms--as the tell bee would cast huge numbers of swarms. I saw one dejebah one afternoon throw about 16. The last was about the size of a tangerine. The Hadj sent the grandson off with directions to catch as many as he could. This kid would come running back after each catch (about 8 or 9) and the bees would be stuck in a dark shed off the main house awaiting dusk to then be placed in an empty dejebbah in the stack. Numbers were more important than individual colony strength--that was perhaps one of the biggest obstacles I kept running into. That & the ministry wanted everything in a Modern hive and there was not the infrastructure to maintain modern beekeeping ( in the hills where I was anyway) Now the commercial beekeepers down at the coast were beholden to a whole different set of values--they were migratory beekeepers with good stainless equipment from europe & good italian or yugoslavian stock also imported. This was 25 years ago--but I bet there has been less change than has been seen here in the US as life is slower & change much less accepted in Tunisia. Thanx for the forum to rambler Mike ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 06:58:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Questions about - Producing Varroa-tolerant Honey Bees from Locally Adapted Stock: A Recipe In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Two points I notice.=A0=A0 1)=A0 Southwest (Tuscon, AZ Bee Lab) -=A0 Africa= nized bees?=A0=A0=A0 2)=A0 Isolated mating sites?=A0 - VERY difficult to co= me by.=A0 Needs to be more the 3 or 4 miles from other colonies (from what = I have gathered).=A0=A0 Premise seems to be good, but finding actual condit= ions without Africanized bees, very questionable in my mind. Mike in LA --- On Sat, 12/13/08, Dan Smith wrote: I want to know if any of you have tried this 'recipe' and what were your results? http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/varroatolerantbee.htm Thanks, Dan =0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:13:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Carniolan, Caucasian or Russian Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I posted this earlier in the year but it seems relevant. There is no doubt a genetic underpinning to behavior, but we are somewhat far from being able to identify it with the genetic tests available. That is not to say that behavioral traits linked to particular bee types cannot be observed and identified directly; this is the information that is used to label the various bees in first place. Russian bees should perform as advertised, regardless of what genes they may carry. In fact, Marla Spivak and others are moving to identifying bees by behavior rather than race, creed, or national origin. > We expected to find two, or perhaps three, QTLs [quantitative trait loci] of major effect on hygienic behavior. However in our experiment we did not find any evidence for such genes. Instead we found that the behavior seems to be inherited in a more quantitative manner. Thus although our quantitative genetic analysis of repeatability and the QTL analysis confirm Rothenbuhler�s findings that hygienic behavior has a strong genetic component (as expected by the success of selection for the character), we cannot confirm the existence of two genes of major effect that control hygienic behavior. "Seven suggestive quantitative trait loci influence hygienic behavior of honey bees" Keryn L. Lapidge � Benjamin P. Oldroyd � Marla Spivak ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:29:45 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lennard Pisa Subject: Re: Questions about - Producing Varroa-tolerant Honey Bees from Locally Adapted Stock: A Recipe In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think there is a big chance that we are selecting for a more "bee friendl= y" mite (or virus if you believe in that) if we breed for tolerance in isol= ated local stock. If I have to bet I say that mites adapt faster to bees th= an bees to mites. =20 The big test for anyone who claims to have Varroa tolerant bees is to inocu= late with strange Varroa and see what happens.=20 =20 L _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/= ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:29:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: hivastan...is this a valid workable varroa tool In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > I have yet to speak with anyone with firsthand knowledge and direct > experience [about Hivastan] HI Kirk, Not firsthand, but second. Kills mites well, as expected. Can be initial adult bee mortality, but drops off after a day. Many are wary after having been burned by coumaphos. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:26:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: CCD and Ferals In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10812120850q3906877fg32006c5eb87b4304@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit wrote: >…there are still forested areas not a > half hour's drive > from my apiaries that lack ferals or escapees. Hi Randy, The past few years with my feral bee project, my observation has shown an anomaly. Ferals appear to be recovering in small towns and sparsely populated areas, with most ferals being found within 100 yards of a structure or home. There perhaps may be some good reason for this, because in my area, old coal patch towns are abundant and often contain voids having NO insulation, and 200 plus year old border trees, abandon farms and structures are plentiful, providing a most essential part of bee habitat which are the ‘quality voids‘. I do know of a few locations of beetrees in the forest, but I do not get many calls for the forest ferals, perhaps because there are fewer eyes in these areas to report the existence of a feral colony, and they can be very difficult to find also. So I remind myself; “If a beetree falls in the middle of the forest, and there is no one there to see it, were there bees in that tree?” You can see on this site below; even though positioning is done by coordinates, it appears that ferals like to stay near roads, interstates and small towns. And on the map, many describe the locations something like,,, “in the tree is behind my home“ etc. http://www.savethehives.com/fbp/Map.html I am supportive of the feral bee project at savethehives.com because is a good first step to promote the importance, and preservation of feral honeybees, and it does illustrate well, ‘what is seen’ is most likely to get reported. --------> Replying to other letters about the difficulty experienced in baiting in feral bees: When using bait stations to find ferals, sometimes bees will not locate the bait quickly, so there needs to be a strong odor to serve as an attractant, and just such an account is given in; “Travels in the interior inhabited parts of North America. In the years 1791 and 1792”. On page 258 Patrick Campbell describes "A method of finding out bees in the woods" “...He Proceeds in the woods until he comes to the largest growth of timber he can find ; there he stops and puts up a little fire; on a flat stone in this fire, he puts a little bees wax, ...the smell of burnt bees wax will attract them.” Campbell goes on to mention other essential tools needed: “...takes with him his dog for a companion, and his gun, as no man is safe in the woods without both; a blanket to lie on at night, and a tomahawk” So don’t forget to take these things! ;) Best Wishes Joe ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * *******************************************************