========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:22:25 +0000 Reply-To: Barry@Birkey.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: BIRKEY.COM Subject: don't contact Jan anymore!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jan has told me....... his email folder "mail problems" is overcooking with more than 80 JUNO MAILS HOLD ALL JUNO MAIL TO JAN! regards, jan -- Barry Birkey Illinois, USA -------------------------------- BIRKEY.COM Web Design & Digital Illustration -------------------------------- 630.293.1181 ph > 630.293.3613 fx barry@birkey.com > http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:11:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: packaging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! I would like to find a supplier(wholesale) that sells tin or plastic canisters w/ lids..preferably these "canisters" should be from a .25 through a 2 oz size. Herb Holly-B Apiary P.O.Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:22:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert E Butcher Subject: Re: marking queens Comments: To: kentbee-l@amigabee.org.uk I would like to know if I could use white out or fingernail polish to mark queens? I'm trying to see how long these aggressive bees take to requeen. Thanks for all info. bob God Bless You Robert&Teresa Butcher bobbees@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:16:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Elizabeth Vogt Subject: Walking bees ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Beekeepers --- Someone called me with a question that I don't have an answer to; I thought perhaps a BEE-L subscriber has some knowledge re: the following: This person has a queenless yet healthy-looking hive. She is waiting for the queen to arrive shortly in the mail. Last week, the bees, by the thousands, began walking along the ground in front of the hive. They go back in in the evening. I'm guessing it is some kind of odd swarming behavior. Any answers? Thank you for your time. Sincerely, Elizabeth A. Vogt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:42:36 -0400 Reply-To: heritage.hollow@sympatico.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: TED & JOAN PICHURSKI Subject: paper sludge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have any information about the use of 'paper sludge' fertilizer. We have an opportunity to purchase 20 overwintered colonies that have been housed in an area surrounded for about 50 acres with fields fertilized using paper sludge. The product is spread several inches thick over the entire area and we are concerned about the possible affect this may have (have had) on the bees. The colonies appear relatively strong, but neighbours in the area are complaining bitterly about being bothered by large numbers of bees invading their space; it does not appear the bees are very happy with the stuff. Any advice concerning this issue would be appreciated. Further: as we are novices, is it common practice for beekeepers to make 'nukes' from overwintered colonies prior to placing them for sale? Further: Could someone let me know what is the 'average' poundage of wax per super accumulated through the extraction process? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:30:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator Subject: Re: paper sludge Comments: To: heritage.hollow@sympatico.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/22/98 7:27:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, heritage.hollow@sympatico.ca writes: << Does anyone have any information about the use of 'paper sludge' fertilizer. We have an opportunity to purchase 20 overwintered colonies that have been housed in an area surrounded for about 50 acres with fields fertilized using paper sludge. The product is spread several inches thick over the entire area and we are concerned about the possible affect this may have (have had) on the bees. The colonies appear relatively strong, but neighbors in the area are complaining bitterly about being bothered by large numbers of bees invading their space; it does not appear the bees are very happy with the stuff. Any advice concerning this issue would be appreciated. Paper used to be notorious for lead and heavy metal content. Printing was a lead based process and color inks also contained many metals. Nowadays printing is based more and more on offset technique with soy based printing inks, and non toxic dyes. So the quality of the paper sludge used is based on what printing was used on the original papers, and could only be determined by tests. That much paper pulp used on the land would mulch it so heavily it would kill much of the vegetation and probably the bees have little to forage. << Further: as we are novices, is it common practice for beekeepers to make 'nukes' from overwintered colonies prior to placing them for sale?>> If you purchase them early, you will probably get the entire colony, but, as swarm season approaches, many beekeepers make nucs to replace losses and have some extra bees for sale. If an honest beekeeper has made some nucs, he has taken care of your swarm control management for a while. If a dishonest beekeepers sells you splits, they may be too weak to do much. I have one customer who buys 40 50 nucs from me each year. We have had a surplus of rain this season and the nucs are not building as normal. So I just called him to delay his pickup date by a week. I am going to give each nuc an extra frame of brood and another round of feeding. I think he will appreciate the difference. So your most important point is to determine if you are dealing with an honest beekeeper, or a fast buck artist. You don't want to buy "colonies" that are just a couple frames of bees, nor do you want unmanaged colonies that are just about to blow a lot of swarms. <> I've never kept records, but I believe the cappings wax will run around 5-10 lbs per drum of honey, but it is quite variable, depending on the efficiency of your system. Usually there is someone in the area who can take your slumgum (the crud left after wax extraction) and, for a portion of the results, extract more wax. Ask other beekeepers who does this in your area. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 06:54:00 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: paper sludge In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > We have an opportunity to purchase 20 overwintered colonies > > that have been housed in an area surrounded for about 50 acres with > > fields fertilized using paper sludge. > That much paper pulp used on the land would > mulch it so heavily it would kill much of the vegetation and probably the > bees have little to forage. If your bees forage roughly a half mile in each direction, then they forage over an area of over 500 acres. The 50 acres is only 10% of that. I guess it depends on what is growing on the other 90%. Moreover, if your bees forage up to a mile, which they will if nothing is nearby and the weather is decent, they will have access to over 2,000 acres. If they go 1-1/2 miles, then they are working on 4,500 acres. This figuring also illustrates the futility of growing forage specifically for bees amongst other things. -- Buy, sell, trade, get a job, hire help, announce a meeting, advertise a business or publication... For free *beekeeping related* classified ads, visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BeeAds/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:00:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Schriner, Jeff" Subject: Paper sludge & wax production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain My limited experience has shown that cappings from a standard deep super with ten frames will yield a total of about 4-5 ounces of "refined" wax from my solar melter. I take rather deep slices off my frames using the top and bottom bars as guides. Forget pounds per hive--20 hives might yield a total of 12-15 pounds if the bees have a really good year and you have the supers to support their production. Can't help you with your paper sludge question. bees, like anything, are a product of the environment. As Andy Nachbaur has aptly pointed out--you can't separate the two. If there are problems associated with paper sludge chemicals they can manifest themselves in the hives for years. (contaminated comb) More realistically, these problems, if they exist, will go away with the next new generation or two of bees, a new queen, and the depletion of any existing food stores in the hive. Best regards, Jeff Schriner cc: bcc: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:44:16 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Transport of Hives/Colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anthony Morgan asks about hives transported to Australia in the early day= s. My research has shown the following. In 1805, Gregory Blaxland asked for space for "a swarm of bees in cabin, = with wire cage over hive". To date, I have not found a record of if this= every was placed on board or came to Australia. I would assume the hive= would have been a skep type as there were no moveable frame hives at tha= t time. In 1810, Rev. Samuel Marsden wrote about hives he had obtained in Rio de = Janeiro that "I also took out 2 hives of bees and have got them out safe,= but am afraid that many of them are dead, as I have had no time to atten= d to them since we landed. I really forgot them and left them in the Gov= ernor's garden, where I fear the heavy rains have injured them." In March 1822, there were 7 hives put up for auction that had arrived fro= m England. In June 1822, there is an article about one hive which was = not sold at auction. It says "When the hive landed the number of bees = were reduced to 476, and the quantity of honey to little more than half-a= -pound; but now, although the depth of winter, the number of bees exceeds= 6,000 and their stock of honey, about eighteen pounds. Mr Parr will eng= age that this hive will cast a swarm in July next, and before Christmas = three others may be expected." There is an interesting account of bees coming from California in 1877. = The account is too long to put in full here but I will select some inter= esting parts. "I got them from Harbison, of the Santa Clara Valley! They= were in a Harbison hive, about 20inches square at sides and about three = and a half feet high. There were millions in it!.....(They were put on = a ship, City of New York.).......The bees suffered fearfully. During sev= eral days I took out fully a quarter of them daily, assuming they would = all perish, as 3 or 4 lots sent out as freight had done. I got up early = in the morning, very early, before daybreak and edged the big hive out = on the deck, to give the bees air.........(The ship docked at Honolulu = at 4.30am)........The bees were let loose! Poor things! Thousands of = them had been born at sea, and they fell sprawling on the deck in masses,= ejecting matter which their bodies were gored, for want of exercise. = But, within a half hour of arrival, they were streaming back to the hive = loaded with pollen and honey.....How the bees worked that day........Well= , by the tme the word "Let's go!" was given it was dark then. I do not = think there was an absent bee that was abe to fly back......" They arriv= ed safely in Australia. So it can be seen that bees have been transhipping in Honolulu for many = years . There are drawings of the Strgar export cage in 1932 and the Penna export= cage in 1931. We had a beekeeper in Australia in a newspaper report in = 1896 who was sending stocks to "all parts of Australasia, North America, = South Africa and most of the English speaking countries and colonies". This is just a selection that may spark some interest. If people want = more details, maybe best to contact me directly as it is not strickly "be= e biology". Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:44:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK Subject: Re: marking queens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sure, white-out works, but it wears away depending on brand and how heavy the application. Why not use Tester's Model Paint in the fountain pen style - I have used it for years, and it never comes off. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:07:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Marking queens, new FAQ entry! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Questions about marking queens are perennial on BEE-L. Searching the archives yields about 20 hits. Discussion has been extracted, requoted material has been removed and the results can be had by sending a service request to the server: LISTSERV@cnsibm.albany.edu that reads: GET B-L-FAQ MRKQUEEN Aaron Morris - thinking marking queens is a good thing! so does Martha Stewart ;-) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 07:01:24 +0000 Reply-To: tlc1@well.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Chester Subject: mold in stored supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I live in San Francisco where winters are cool and damp rather than cold. For the off-season, I had my supers stored in an area where they were protected from rain but otherwise exposed to dampness. This was a very damp winter, too. As a result, the supers developed a bad case of mold. It is especially bad in comb that had been used to raise brood, where many of the cells are full of mold. Even the wooden frames of my honey supers have mold growing on them. Could the mold in the brood comb be harmful to the bees, and, in the case of mold on the frames of my honey supers, could it be harmful to the honey? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:19:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Bogansky Subject: Handling Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I have always enjoyed finding the queen when working a colony, but I generally refrain from touching her. I really don't like handling queens. I guess it is like picking up a baby for the first time; your are sure you will "break it". I know Andy talks about putting queens in his mouth to hold them, and I am sure most commercial beekeepers and a number of you don't have this problem, but there are probably a few who are like me. I watched a queen breeder in my area catch queens and place them in cages. He made it look so easy. I order my queens marked so when I do see them I know if it is the one I placed there or a supersedure. I have also raised, or at least allowed the bees to raise, there own queen. I would like to track these queens by marking them. This means catching and holding the queen in order to mark her. I tried doing this by hand and was not very successful (dropping queens on the ground, etc.). I even practiced on drones but still had trouble with queens. I just tried something new. I bought a queen catching device and a queen marking tube. The catching device is a plastic butterfly clip that allows you to pick up the queen without hurting her. There are openings large enough for workers to pass through but not large enough for the queen. I then take the queen and place her in the marking tube. This is a plastic tube with a soft plunger and a screen at one end. You gently push the queen against the screen and mark her. I use Testors' model paint pens. I think they are easier then working with bottles. I wait a few minutes for the paint to dry and drop the queen back in the colony. I am not sure how long to wait (3 to 5 minutes?) to ensure the odor of the paint dissipates so I give the hive a few puffs of smoke. I don't know if this is necessary. I know there is also a queen marking device available that holds the queen directly on the frame while marking. I intend to give it a try also. Even if you don't believe in marking queens, there are times when catching and holding a queen is useful. The queen catching device would really work for those occasions. Actually the more I use this the more at ease I feel handling the queens. Maybe someday I won't need the "training wheels". Still learning. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, PA First swarm call 4/18/98, a full three weeks before what is normal for this area. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:02:38 +0300 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: don't contact Jan anymore!!test 1 Comments: To: Barry@Birkey.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit anymore!! is that not a little bit to rigid?? ;-) test test only fur the juno's seen that my "old" signatur contains a 8 bit character it was the sign for degree on F or C this goes MINE encoding some (please not all) junos will replay me if they can read this greeting, jan ------------------------------------------------- home of the drone frame method. de darreraat methode ------------------------------------------------- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html Jan Tempelman / Ineke Drabbe | mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl Sterremos 16 3069 AS Rotterdam, The Netherlands Tel/Fax (SOMETIMES) XX 31 (0)10-4569412 ------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:12:25 +0300 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: test 2 Comments: To: Barry@Birkey.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: don't contact Jan anymore!!test 1 Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:02:38 +0300 From: Jan Tempelman this goes 5 min later test test only fur the juno's seen that my "old" signatur contains a 8 bit character it was the sign for degree on F or C this goes "as is" some (please not all) junos will replay me if they can read this greeting, jan ------------------------------------------------- home of the drone frame method. de darreraat methode ------------------------------------------------- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html Jan Tempelman / Ineke Drabbe | mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl Sterremos 16 3069 AS Rotterdam, The Netherlands Tel/Fax (SOMETIMES) XX 31 (0)10-4569412 ------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:18:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Goldblatt/Hilary Hamilton Subject: Re: Extender Patties Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resistance to pesticides or antibiotics is inevitable if and only if the substance is used incorrectly. By incorrectly I mean either not long enough (sporadically) or too long (continuously). To avoid resistance it is paramount to use the product according to the directions which are based on the best research we have. Let me explain how this works. If you use a pesticide (or antibiotic, which is really a type of pesticide) for a short period of time, you kill only the most susceptible pests. Lets say that by using terramycin for only for days you kill the most susceptible 25% of the foulbrood bacteria. That leaves you with the most resistant 75% which will reproduce happily until your next treatment. The next time, four days of treatment will not kill as many bacteria because all the bacteria come from those more resistant 75%, so you may only kill 10% of the bacteria in the hive. Once again you've killed the most susceptible and left the most resistant to continue to grow. In a very short time you'll have a totally resistant strain of foulbrood. This is why it's so important to complete the full course of antibiotics when your doctor prescribes some for you. Now, if you use the pesticide continuously you'll also develop resistant pests. This is because no treatment is ever 100% effective. There will always be a few bacteria which are totally resistant to the treatment. If you leave the terramycin in the hive all the time you will kill off all the susceptible bacteria, and the totally resistant ones will reproduce freely. Now you've again got a resistant strain of foulbrood. It may at this point seem that resistance is inevitable if you've only got one method of treatment. This may be the case, but if you treat properly you can make it take a very long time to develop if it ever does. The key is to kill off enough of the disease that it doesn't easily bounce back, but not so much that all you have left are resistant organisms. You also rely on the host (in this case the bees) to be able to fight off the remaining disease on its own. In addition, you hope that there remains in the wild a reasonable quantity of susceptible disease, and that what remains in your treated host may mutate and become less resistant during the long periods without treatment. It's a tricky balancing act. So, the long and short of it is, if you use extender patties don't leave them in there any longer than you'd treat with the dust method. This info applies to other beekeeping treatments too. Don't leave apistan or menthol in the hive longer than it says on their packages. In fact, for diseases like varroa which you can actually see, it's a good idea not to treat at all until you actually see signs of a reasonable infestation. I find that I usually have no varroa in the spring, so I don't treat then (unless I find some). By the fall, I usually have a good crop of varroa in the hive, so I treat for the recommended time period at the recommended dosage and then remove the strips. The bees generally do fine until the following fall. With foulbrood you can't treat that way because once you have a real infestation the terramycin won't work. So you need to treat preventively, ideally once in the spring and once in the fall. Please don't treat more than this! I'll stop ranting now. -Alan Goldblatt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:56:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kenn Tuckey Subject: Bees and Canola Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hello All: I am trying to write an article about canola. In part of the artcile I wish to discuss the effect on seed yield when honey bees are present or absent. Please Note: I am NOT talking about the absolute requirement for pollinating insects to produce hybrid canola seed. My interest is in the fields grow by the average farmer. I am also interested in information on nectar yields from the two Brassica species - Polish or Argentine. Which produces the largest honey crop? I am interested in anecdotal evidence from beekeepers but I am especially interested in any studies that have been conducted on these subjects. As beekeepers we feel we play an important part inthe success of canola growers. However a study of the information on the Home Page of the Canola Council of Canada is very humbling. http://www.canola-council.org/ The ONLY mention of honey bees is to watch for them when spraying. The concern was that the beekeeper would be harmed - not that loss of bees could reduce crop. You can reply directly to me or , I suppose this could open a new thread. If there is lots in the archives please let me know and I will look. I may look anyway, if I can remember how to do it. Thanks for any help. Kenn Kenn Tuckey Provincial Apiculturist, Alberta Agriculture, Food and Rural Development 17507 - Fort Road, R.R. #6, Edmonton, AB T5B 4K3 Phone 403-415-2314 Fax: 403-422-6096 Mailto:tuckey@agric.gov.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:30:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Rupert, Rod" Subject: Re: honey bound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD6DF2.D55FCAE0" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD6DF2.D55FCAE0 Content-Type: text/plain If there are significant stores left over from last year, some, if not most, having been collected while medication was being applied, should I be concerned that the bees might move some of this into the supers that will be extracted for human consumption? Rod > -----Original Message----- > From: CSlade777 [SMTP:CSlade777@AOL.COM] > Sent: Monday, April 20, 1998 5:48 PM > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: honey bound > > If it is HONEY and not bee-processed sugar in the frames, simply give > the bees > room in supers. If they need the space for brood and have somewhere > else to > put the honey they will move it. They know how they want their larder > arranged > far better than you do. If the frames contain non honey stores, remove > them to > avoid contamination of the real thing. Use them to feed nuclei or > weak > colonies. > Chris Slade > ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD6DF2.D55FCAE0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiUSAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQWAAwAOAAAAzgcEABYADQAeACMAAwBAAQEggAMADgAAAM4HBAAW AA0AHgAkAAMAQQEBCYABACEAAAA4Q0UyODU0QURERDlEMTExODJCMTAwNjAwODAxQ0FGRAAqBwEE gAEAEAAAAFJFOiBob25leSBib3VuZABMBQENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABA5AGAIQIAAAsAAAACwACAAEA AAADAC4AAAAAAAIBMQABAAAAvwAAAFBDREZFQjA5AAEAAgBKAAAAAAAAADihuxAF5RAaobsIACsq VsIAAG1zcHN0LmRsbAAAAAAATklUQfm/uAEAqgA32W4AAABDOlxXSU5OVFxvdXRsb29rLnBzdAAY AAAAAAAAADpYwkOweNERgi8AYAgByv2igAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAOljCQ7B40RGCLwBgCAHK/cKA AAAQAAAAjOKFSt3Z0RGCsQBgCAHK/RAAAABSRTogaG9uZXkgYm91bmQAAEAAOQAwfdK9HG69AR4A cAABAAAAEAAAAFJFOiBob25leSBib3VuZAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvW4cvHhKheKN2d0R0YKxAGAI Acr9AAAeADFAAQAAAAgAAABSUlVQRVJUAAMAGkAAAAAAHgAwQAEAAAAIAAAAUlJVUEVSVAADABlA AAAAAAIBCRABAAAAeQMAAHUDAADdBAAATFpGdcXVWMrTAAoBCjM2AeggAqQD4wkCAGNoCsBzZXQw HiAHEwKDAFAPlnBycZoyEJZ9CoAIyCA7CW+YMjU1AoAKgXVjAFANCwNjAEELYG5nMTAEMzMLpDE4 IElmyCB0aASQZSAKwBdwxQCQZwMAZmljAHAFQCxzdAWwB5FsAXEgb1p2BJAgA1IY8GEYkCC0eWUK wCwXwANwZRqA8QaQIG5vBUAEYBiQGoBFECB2C4BnIGIJ4SATCOEZAGN0CYAgd2iXAxAXcAeAZBgx dGkCIM8dIBoAHDEcAmFwC1AIkFZkGoAXwGgIYGwdEEnzHDEcgW5jBJEdARcwHeDXFyIcMgQgbRfg aBtSGWC/GpMZQBcSBAAa8AIwbyEj+HN1cASQBCAg4wPwHLDhIAJleHRyANAc8gIQuQXAaHUDgiBB I9BtBTD9HgE/CqIKhAqACAALMSc4/ycYCzAfEA5xFaEBQBHgG0BDHNERJDE2IC0rIk89BRBnC4AH QAXQB5BzYfxnZSsjJxYqNCoBCxMqNuBpLTE0NAFAHxAW0I4wAUAM0C7DYiBGA2HKOgyDYhCAQ1ML YAEAAjcxQCBbU01UUAI6MOdAQU9MLkP4T01dJxUv8AZgAjAwV6JNAiBkYXkagEER4EcDEQHQGoAx OTkW4DUkOjQW4FBNMwdUbwEwV0JFRS1MQEMATlNJQk0uQUwAQkFOWS5FRFUxMwh1Ymoc0TBXUmXm OhvAAiBleRwwCGA0gL8szy3aKYQLticjFwFpBUDBIxFIT05FWReANID7GyMcQS0qISBwBBAdASPQ 3mcKwQuAISMDUGEHgRqB/wdwC1A7ACugIkEhNicUA2D3GcFBISPULh9gFwQ7ACCg3yCzF7EKsCBw JaNiQ7EdEJ8/YhvRIlQdMBdSZWwQUOUXIG8nFHB1IRQ6xETzrySTIiM+oESQVEUCaxswvwfgH5AH 4Em0GFIXMWkFwP8LYAsgGXEKwCVAFhAJgCcUfmYKwRxAAkAZcSDhA6B58QhgIGRvRJAXBEGFIDL/ AZBBIRswA6A6xBiUGoAJcJ8iIxcxGdBIVhvgb2kdEP9QcyHAK8Ad8yLDF3AJcCvR9yLxFhBEkVVI IlKUGZBFUrZuFSAZAGkZQAXAdxpQXmsnFAjiAwAHkC4nFEO+aAUQBkExAicaEqEAWsAAAAAeAEIQ AQAAAAEAAAAAAAAACwADgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAA4UAAAAAAAADAACACCAGAAAAAADA AAAAAAAARgAAAAAQhQAAAAAAAAMABIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFKFAAB0EAAAHgAFgAgg BgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAVIUAAAEAAAAFAAAAOC4wMgAAAAADAAaACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAA RgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAsAB4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAA6FAAAAAAAAAwAIgAggBgAAAAAA wAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADAAmACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAAAB4ACoAI IAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAAuACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAA AAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgAMgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAA AAMA8T8JBAAAAwD9P+QEAAADACYAAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAAwCAEP////8CAUcAAQAAAC4AAABjPVVT O2E9IDtwPUFFQ0k7bD1IUUNPUkVYQy05ODA0MjIxODMwMzVaLTM3NDAAAAAeADhAAQAAAAgAAABS UlVQRVJUAB4AOUABAAAACAAAAFJSVVBFUlQAQAAHMBBzz70cbr0BQAAIMMAZDr4cbr0BHgA9AAEA AAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAAeAB0OAQAAAAwAAABob25leSBib3VuZAAeADUQAQAAADsAAAA8QTE2RTRC RjQxNkQyRDAxMUJBOTgwODAwMkJFNjJEMEYxNUU5REJAaHFjb3JleGMuYWVjaS5vcmc+AAALACkA AQAAAAsAIwABAAAAAwAGEB6Zwm4DAAcQpAIAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAEAAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABJ RlRIRVJFQVJFU0lHTklGSUNBTlRTVE9SRVNMRUZUT1ZFUkZST01MQVNUWUVBUixTT01FLElGTk9U TU9TVCxIQVZJTkdCRUVOQ09MTEVDVEVEV0hJTEVNRURJQ0FUSU9OV0FTAAAAAAIBfwABAAAAOwAA ADxBMTZFNEJGNDE2RDJEMDExQkE5ODA4MDAyQkU2MkQwRjE1RTlEQkBocWNvcmV4Yy5hZWNpLm9y Zz4AAArh ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD6DF2.D55FCAE0-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:55:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Gosswiller Subject: confused bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I have two hives in my back yard that are strong and healthy. I also have some old hives that I have stacked about 30 yards away that have 4 frames of old brood comb in them. My question is this: why have so many bees decided to build more comb and bring in honey to the extra hive that I am not using, and for sure there isn't any queen in there. They have actually started building comb off the cover board. They aren't bringing in any pollen to that hive. But why would they waste their time building comb in that hive when they have a perfectly good one with a queen a few yards away. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:31:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Elizabeth Vogt Subject: Walking bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, noone from BEE-L responded to my question re: bees from a queenless colony walking/crawling, in large numbers, along the ground ... I think I may have an answer, altho. it appears there isn't an interest in this phenom ... I'll just send this hypothesis out anyway in case it happens again ... I think the bees are foraging for food ... the gal who called me, later told me that she had put honeycomb on the ground for the bees to feed on (as opposed to sugar syrup from a board feeder, etc.; I don't really know why she did this); I'm thinking that she has actually "trained" her bees to forage along the ground ... Sincerely, E A Vogt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:49:12 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777 Subject: Re: extender patties Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The UK remedy for AFB is one we are very happy with here. There is no apparent resistance either by the beekeeper or the spores. Since it has been in use it has reduced the incidence of AFB to around 1% of colonies from a figure many times that before the remedy was introduced. The remedy is to dig a pit, kill all the bees with petrol (at dusk when all the foragers have returned), put the entire contents of the hive in the pit, burn with more petrol, thoroughly scorch the hive body with a blow lamp. Fill in the pit giving a good covering of soil. Bee Diseases Insurance Ltd pays out at a set rate for brood combs, shallows etc. The premiums are cheap because the risk has now been reduced to such a low level. Even better there is absolotely no risk of contaminating honey or beekeepers with unwanted antibiotics. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:49:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777 Subject: Re: Beesue; beekeeper liability Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Join the British Beekeepers' Association. The annual subscription of ab= out=0A=A37 (Say $10) includes =A31,000,000 ( about $1,700,000) public lia= bility=0Ainsurance cover among other benefits. Chris Slade=0A ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:49:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777 Subject: Re: Otto cycle Comments: To: biojdsx@panther.Gsu.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Jim, This is a digression from my main point which was that education is important for its own sake rather than just as a means to an end. Possibly I chose a bad example in comparing bees with mankind. My only motive in doing so was to introduce the subject of bees into the mail, having dealt with the Otto cycle and education, as I could feel the threat of Aaron's editorial pencil hovering over the conversation like the sword of Damocles. However, I enjoy digresssions. I am not a biologist or any other kind of scientist so I am liable to be shot down in flames by somebody with edu in his e.mail address. My understanding of Lamarck's idea is that he thought acquired characteristics can be inherited. For example you could inherit your grandfather's wooden leg as well as his red hair and his temper. Of course you can't (unless he leaves it to you in his will). I suggest M. Lamarck would have modified his theories if he had the foresight to read the works of Darwin and of Mendel. Having given the matter more thought than I did before I still stand by my previous statement. Fossil evidence shows that, at the time that bees were pretty much as they are now, they co-existed with a primitive ancestor of mankind and countless other species of mammals. Beekind (Apis) now has only 5 species (that we know of) whereas many more species have evolved from the mammalian common ancestor occupying a far greater range than Apis. I do not say that they evolved the way they did because of what they did, rather that their exploratory habit (in their genes already?) put them into places where Messrs Darwin and Mendel could go to work on them. If left to themselves bees may be in a very long evolutionary cul de sac. Genetic engineers may be plotting a new apis species with a long tongue, the ability to work at all temperatures, pest and disease resistance, regular and predictable reproductive habits and no sting. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:35:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777 Subject: Re: marking queens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Don't use anything with acetone in as it smells like alarm pheremone and may lead to balling. Experiment on a few drones first to see whether there is any adverse reaction. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:22:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Re: Beesue; beekeeper liability Your proposal sounds interesting. One would get the benefits of the British Beekeepers' Association publications, as well as the insurance. Do you know if the insurance is good in the United States? Lloyd LloydSpear@email.msn.com -----Original Message----- From: CSlade777 To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Beesue; beekeeper liability Join the British Beekeepers' Association. The annual subscription of about #7 (Say $10) includes #1,000,000 ( about $1,700,000) public liability insurance cover among other benefits. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:22:20 +0300 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: Re: Walking bees ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elizabeth Vogt wrote: >The bees, by the > thousands, began walking along the ground in front of the hive. They go > back in in the evening. I'm guessing it is some kind of odd swarming > behavior. I think they are lokking for the queen. They seen to bee hopeless queenless no eggs to make a new queen so the workers will be start to lay eggs AT THAT TIME IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ATTACH A NEW QUEEN!!! So look out, be carefull!! Drop the new queen in a cage with many sucker the bees must have several days to be usefull to her (or visa versa) ggood luck jan ------------------------------------------------- home of the drone frame method. de darreraat methode ------------------------------------------------- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html Jan Tempelman / Ineke Drabbe | mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl Sterremos 16 3069 AS Rotterdam, The Netherlands Tel/Fax (SOMETIMES) XX 31 (0)10-4569412 ------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:45:31 +0300 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: For the junos and all interested in problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit only email problems !!!!! seen we (i) solved the problem my signature (a simple text file) did contains a 8 bit character the sign for degree for C or F On my apple>> shift-alt 8 Most of the servers try to convert this and than something went wrong Normal computers don't do that; that users can read ALL after i make a simple ----- from it , and seens we (I) solved it that what You was missing>>>>>>>........ the latest mails - about the 1875 drory hive orginal text ( see site under: " do it your self"/self builders) BTW.: today; a cath the first swarm in Rotterdam, and hived it in that box - RossRounds (see site under "Rossrounds") and the most funny email was: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- test, test some of the BEE-L readers get my mail as "garbage" SSB3b3VsZCBzdWdnZXJlciBvZiB0aGUgUm90dGVyZGFtIEJl some other BEE-L readers can read my mail and find it also "garbage" ;-) test test ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- no more friendly fanmail like this. ;-( ;-( ----- 22 Dec 1997 From: awneedham@juno.com To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Jan Tempelman writes: >PiBJZiBzbywgd291bGQgdGhpcyBob25leSBiZSBoYWxsdWNpbm9nZW5pYyAoYW5kIGlsbGVn...... Love your great poetry Jan! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- no more poet ;-( peace, jan ------------------------------------------------- home of the drone frame method. de darreraat methode ------------------------------------------------- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html Jan Tempelman / Ineke Drabbe | mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl Sterremos 16 3069 AS Rotterdam, The Netherlands Tel/Fax (SOMETIMES) XX 31 (0)10-4569412 ------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:24:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "James B. Riley" Subject: Read: honey bound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgMWAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAIAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5SZWFkIFJlY2VpcHQAAwsBDYAEAAIAAAACAAIAAQqAAQAhAAAAOENFMjg1NEFE REQ5RDExMTgyQjEwMDYwMDgwMUNBRkQAKgcBA5AGAFwEAAAiAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsA KQAAAAAAAgExAAEAAAC/AAAAUENERkVCMDkAAQACAEoAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAA bXNwc3QuZGxsAAAAAABOSVRB+b+4AQCqADfZbgAAAEM6XFdJTk5UXG91dGxvb2sucHN0ABgAAAAA AAAAOljCQ7B40RGCLwBgCAHK/aKAAAAAAAAAGAAAAAAAAAA6WMJDsHjREYIvAGAIAcr9woAAABAA AACM4oVK3dnREYKxAGAIAcr9EAAAAFJFOiBob25leSBib3VuZAAAQAAyAKBI8Ag8br0BAwA2AAAA AAACAUMAAQAAADoAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDdAQ9UAgAAAABSdXBlcnQsIFJvZABTTVRQAHJy dXBlcnRAYWVjaS5vcmcAAAAeAEQAAQAAAAwAAABSdXBlcnQsIFJvZAAeAEkAAQAAABAAAABSRTog aG9uZXkgYm91bmQAAgFMAAEAAABuAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAASW5mb3JtZWQg RGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvZiBCZWVrZWVwaW5nIElzc3VlcyBhbmQgQmVlIEJpb2xvZ3kAU01UUABCRUUt TEBDTlNJQk0uQUxCQU5ZLkVEVQAAAB4ATQABAAAAOQAAAEluZm9ybWVkIERpc2N1c3Npb24gb2Yg QmVla2VlcGluZyBJc3N1ZXMgYW5kIEJlZSBCaW9sb2d5AAAAAEAATgAwfdK9HG69AUAAVQAAh9tY IW69AR4AcAABAAAAEAAAAFJFOiBob25leSBib3VuZAACAXEAAQAAABsAAAABvW4cvHhKheKN2d0R 0YKxAGAIAcr9AAfTHoUAHgByAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AcwABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAHQAAQAAABgA AABCRUUtTEBDTlNJQk0uQUxCQU5ZLkVEVQALAAgMAAAAAAIBHQwBAAAAHQAAAFNNVFA6UklMRVlK QkBNQS5VTFRSQU5FVC5DT00AAAAACwABDgEAAAALAB8OAQAAAB4AARABAAAAFQAAAE1lc3NhZ2Ug d2FzIHJlYWQgb246AAAAAAMABhAAAAAAAwAHEAAAAAAeAAgQAQAAAAYAAABkDA4BBAAAAAMAEBCU +1gCAwAREOQEAAACAfgPAQAAABAAAAALmLzLu1G8EbtMHkksHtemAgH6DwEAAAAQAAAAC5i8y7tR vBG7TB5JLB7XpgIB+w8BAAAAUAAAAAAAAAA4obsQBeUQGqG7CAArKlbCAABQU1RQUlguRExMAAAA AAAAAABOSVRB+b+4AQCqADfZbgAAAEM6XFdJTkRPV1Ncb3V0bG9vay5wc3QAAwD+DwUAAAADAA00 /TcAAAIBfwABAAAAMQAAADAwMDAwMDAwMEI5OEJDQ0JCQjUxQkMxMUJCNEMxRTQ5MkMxRUQ3QTYy NDNFM0EwMAAAAADq+g== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:38:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Walter T. Weller" Subject: Re: Read: honey bound Garbage (see below). You might want to read the recent Jan Templema thread. Incidentally, I'm a Juno user. Walter Weller Post Office Box 270 Wakefield, Louisiana 70784 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:24:03 -0400 "James B. Riley" writes: >eJ8+IgMWAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAIAAAAElQTS5NaWNy >b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5SZWFkIFJlY2VpcHQAAwsBDYAEAAIAAAACAAIAAQqAAQAhAAAAOENFMjg1NEFE >REQ5RDExMTgyQjEwMDYwMDgwMUNBRkQAKgcBA5AGAFwEAAAiAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsA >KQAAAAAAAgExAAEAAAC/AAAAUENERkVCMDkAAQACAEoAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAA >bXNwc3QuZGxsAAAAAABOSVRB+b+4AQCqADfZbgAAAEM6XFdJTk5UXG91dGxvb2sucHN0ABgAAAAA >AAAAOljCQ7B40RGCLwBgCAHK/aKAAAAAAAAAGAAAAAAAAAA6WMJDsHjREYIvAGAIAcr9woAAABAA >AACM4oVK3dnREYKxAGAIAcr9EAAAAFJFOiBob25leSBib3VuZAAAQAAyAKBI8Ag8br0BAwA2AAAA >AAACAUMAAQAAADoAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDdAQ9UAgAAAABSdXBlcnQsIFJvZABTTVRQAHJy >dXBlcnRAYWVjaS5vcmcAAAAeAEQAAQAAAAwAAABSdXBlcnQsIFJvZAAeAEkAAQAAABAAAABSRTog >aG9uZXkgYm91bmQAAgFMAAEAAABuAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAASW5mb3JtZWQg >RGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvZiBCZWVrZWVwaW5nIElzc3VlcyBhbmQgQmVlIEJpb2xvZ3kAU01UUABCRUUt >TEBDTlNJQk0uQUxCQU5ZLkVEVQAAAB4ATQABAAAAOQAAAEluZm9ybWVkIERpc2N1c3Npb24gb2Yg >QmVla2VlcGluZyBJc3N1ZXMgYW5kIEJlZSBCaW9sb2d5AAAAAEAATgAwfdK9HG69AUAAVQAAh9tY >IW69AR4AcAABAAAAEAAAAFJFOiBob25leSBib3VuZAACAXEAAQAAABsAAAABvW4cvHhKheKN2d0R >0YKxAGAIAcr9AAfTHoUAHgByAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AcwABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAHQAAQAAABgA >AABCRUUtTEBDTlNJQk0uQUxCQU5ZLkVEVQALAAgMAAAAAAIBHQwBAAAAHQAAAFNNVFA6UklMRVlK >QkBNQS5VTFRSQU5FVC5DT00AAAAACwABDgEAAAALAB8OAQAAAB4AARABAAAAFQAAAE1lc3NhZ2Ug >d2FzIHJlYWQgb246AAAAAAMABhAAAAAAAwAHEAAAAAAeAAgQAQAAAAYAAABkDA4BBAAAAAMAEBCU >+1gCAwAREOQEAAACAfgPAQAAABAAAAALmLzLu1G8EbtMHkksHtemAgH6DwEAAAAQAAAAC5i8y7tR >vBG7TB5JLB7XpgIB+w8BAAAAUAAAAAAAAAA4obsQBeUQGqG7CAArKlbCAABQU1RQUlguRExMAAAA >AAAAAABOSVRB+b+4AQCqADfZbgAAAEM6XFdJTkRPV1Ncb3V0bG9vay5wc3QAAwD+DwUAAAADAA00 >/TcAAAIBfwABAAAAMQAAADAwMDAwMDAwMEI5OEJDQ0JCQjUxQkMxMUJCNEMxRTQ5MkMxRUQ3QTYy >NDNFM0EwMAAAAADq+g== > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:51:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert E Butcher Subject: Re: Read: honey bound Hi James ,sorry to say that you have the same thing happening as Jan had God Bless You Robert&Teresa Butcher bobbees@juno.com On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:24:03 -0400 "James B. Riley" writes: >eJ8+IgMWAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAIAAAAElQTS5NaWNy >b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5SZWFkIFJlY2VpcHQAAwsBDYAEAAIAAAACAAIAAQqAAQAhAAAAOENFMjg1NEFE >REQ5RDExMTgyQjEwMDYwMDgwMUNBRkQAKgcBA5AGAFwEAAAiAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsA >KQAAAAAAAgExAAEAAAC/AAAAUENERkVCMDkAAQACAEoAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAA >bXNwc3QuZGxsAAAAAABOSVRB+b+4AQCqADfZbgAAAEM6XFdJTk5UXG91dGxvb2sucHN0ABgAAAAA >AAAAOljCQ7B40RGCLwBgCAHK/aKAAAAAAAAAGAAAAAAAAAA6WMJDsHjREYIvAGAIAcr9woAAABAA >AACM4oVK3dnREYKxAGAIAcr9EAAAAFJFOiBob25leSBib3VuZAAAQAAyAKBI8Ag8br0BAwA2AAAA >AAACAUMAAQAAADoAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDdAQ9UAgAAAABSdXBlcnQsIFJvZABTTVRQAHJy >dXBlcnRAYWVjaS5vcmcAAAAeAEQAAQAAAAwAAABSdXBlcnQsIFJvZAAeAEkAAQAAABAAAABSRTog >aG9uZXkgYm91bmQAAgFMAAEAAABuAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAASW5mb3JtZWQg >RGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvZiBCZWVrZWVwaW5nIElzc3VlcyBhbmQgQmVlIEJpb2xvZ3kAU01UUABCRUUt >TEBDTlNJQk0uQUxCQU5ZLkVEVQAAAB4ATQABAAAAOQAAAEluZm9ybWVkIERpc2N1c3Npb24gb2Yg >QmVla2VlcGluZyBJc3N1ZXMgYW5kIEJlZSBCaW9sb2d5AAAAAEAATgAwfdK9HG69AUAAVQAAh9tY >IW69AR4AcAABAAAAEAAAAFJFOiBob25leSBib3VuZAACAXEAAQAAABsAAAABvW4cvHhKheKN2d0R >0YKxAGAIAcr9AAfTHoUAHgByAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AcwABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAHQAAQAAABgA >AABCRUUtTEBDTlNJQk0uQUxCQU5ZLkVEVQALAAgMAAAAAAIBHQwBAAAAHQAAAFNNVFA6UklMRVlK >QkBNQS5VTFRSQU5FVC5DT00AAAAACwABDgEAAAALAB8OAQAAAB4AARABAAAAFQAAAE1lc3NhZ2Ug >d2FzIHJlYWQgb246AAAAAAMABhAAAAAAAwAHEAAAAAAeAAgQAQAAAAYAAABkDA4BBAAAAAMAEBCU >+1gCAwAREOQEAAACAfgPAQAAABAAAAALmLzLu1G8EbtMHkksHtemAgH6DwEAAAAQAAAAC5i8y7tR >vBG7TB5JLB7XpgIB+w8BAAAAUAAAAAAAAAA4obsQBeUQGqG7CAArKlbCAABQU1RQUlguRExMAAAA >AAAAAABOSVRB+b+4AQCqADfZbgAAAEM6XFdJTkRPV1Ncb3V0bG9vay5wc3QAAwD+DwUAAAADAA00 >/TcAAAIBfwABAAAAMQAAADAwMDAwMDAwMEI5OEJDQ0JCQjUxQkMxMUJCNEMxRTQ5MkMxRUQ3QTYy >NDNFM0EwMAAAAADq+g== > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:54:08 -0500 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: a queen out for a cruise? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------CBDD9E42085F87EC1599D8C7" --------------CBDD9E42085F87EC1599D8C7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just had an interesting experience. Last fall I requeened a few of my hives with Buckfast queens. (I keep about a dozen hives.) This spring they were all doing well. This PM I was out checking the sugar water supply, and to my surprise I see one of my Buckfast ladies - large, dark, not looking like a virgin queen out for a flight - on the back of one of the hives. No court, just her. I was about to place her in a queen cage... not being sure what I was going to do with her then... when she took flight and after inspecting the entrance of one hive, entered another. She was not challenged. In fact, it appeared she was not even noticed. Except for a virgin queen or a swarm, I have never seen a queen outside the hive before. I am not quite sure what to make of it. Any thoughts? Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA --------------CBDD9E42085F87EC1599D8C7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just had an interesting experience.  Last fall I requeened a few of my hives with Buckfast queens.  (I keep about a dozen hives.)  This spring they were all doing well.  This PM I was out checking the sugar water supply, and to my surprise I see one of my Buckfast ladies - large, dark, not looking like a virgin queen out for a flight - on the back of one of the hives.  No court, just her.  I was about to place her in a queen cage... not being sure what I was going to do with her then... when she took flight and after inspecting the entrance of one hive, entered another.  She was not challenged.  In fact, it appeared she was not even noticed.

Except for a virgin queen or a swarm, I have never seen a queen outside the hive before.  I am not quite sure what to make of it.  Any thoughts?

Larry Krengel
Marengo, IL  USA --------------CBDD9E42085F87EC1599D8C7-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:06:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter Subject: Marking Queens Finding Queens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Some time ago mention was made of someday having a gadget to locate queens amidst the activity in a hive. What comes to mind is to mark the queen with flourescent paint and use a UV light source to make her stand out brightly. There are some blacklight paints that really light up well and a little shade would enhance the effect. When time permits I will try this in my observation hive and report back. Tom in CT ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:55:15 -0400 Reply-To: anscsche@entelchile.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andreas Sch|ck Subject: Re: marking queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Robert E Butcher wrote: > > I would like to know if I could use white out or fingernail polish to > mark queens? I'm trying to see how long these aggressive bees take to > requeen. Thanks for all info. > > bob > > God Bless You > Robert&Teresa Butcher > bobbees@juno.com > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] You can use the fingernail polish to mark your queens trouble free. We use to mark our queens since years this way. It4s easy, fast, cheap and the mark will last for enough time. Andreas Schuck Paine-CHILE ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:00:52 -0700 Reply-To: jcbach@yvn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James C Bach Subject: Elizabeth asks about walking bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Part of communicating on this list is to learn, right? But we can't forget humor, can we? You say this person has a healthy-looking hive. This is not important because it doesn't matter if the hive looks poorly or looks good. We need to know more about the colony of bees within the hive. (Subtle aren't I?) How many combs of bees are in the cluster? How long has the colony been queenless? How long have they been exhibiting the aberrant behavior of crawling on the ground? Have they been observed to cluster above or below the hive entrance? What is the previous history of the hive of bees? The bees aren't likely to be looking for their queen. They know about her loss within a few minutes to 20 minutes (depending on the colony size) of being without her. I suspect that a number of things are going on here. There might have been a significant Honey Bee Tracheal and/or Varroa mite problem. If the colony has been queenless for a week or more, they sometimes exhibit strange behaviors like clustering on the outside of the hive (front or side). Add the stress of mites to queenlessness and new behaviors may be exhibited. Several beekeepers here are reporting bees clustering up the front of hives even on days when the temperatures are in the mid 50s F. When asked about the crowded conditions in the hive they reply that it is full of bees. When they add supers as appropriate the heat clustering stops and the bees remain inside the hive. An odd swarming behavior may be a good guess if the colony had a queen and they were actually swarming. I've seen some odd things with a swarming queen with a clipped wing. James C. Bach WSDA State Apiarist Yakima, WA jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:13:35 -0700 Reply-To: jcbach@yvn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James C Bach Subject: Mark Gosswiller - confused bees in a queenless colony building comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit More information is needed. How long has the colony been in the hive? How large is the colony? Do they appear to be quietly organized as a colony? Do they sound queenless? It is quite likely that a swarm moved into the equipment. The queen may be a virgin and so small that you didn't see her. In a week or so she may get mated and start laying. It is unlikely that bees moved into the hive without a queen, but it is not impossible. James C. Bach Yakima WA jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:15:59 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeemanNick Subject: Job's Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit For a school class I have to "pick" a job. So I picked Commercial beekeeping. I need the following What you do, Daily hours, Wage (good bad years) training Education Thank you Nick 14 years old 18 hives ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:02:30 -0500 Reply-To: gmc@vci.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: beeman Organization: Honey Ridge Apiaries Subject: bees/juno email MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, i am sorry to send this to the whole group, but i thought this list was being "monitored" i am sorry that some peoples email isn't working correctly, but what does it have to do with bees??? sorry to start a flame.. but enough already! try www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:15:26 -0500 Reply-To: khavens@tds.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kenneth Havens Subject: Read: honey bound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhsDAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAIAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5SZWFkIFJlY2VpcHQAAwsBDYAEAAIAAAACAAIAAQqAAQAhAAAAOENFMjg1NEFE REQ5RDExMTgyQjEwMDYwMDgwMUNBRkQAKgcBA5AGABwEAAAdAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsA KQAAAAAAAgExAAEAAAC/AAAAUENERkVCMDkAAQACAEoAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAA bXNwc3QuZGxsAAAAAABOSVRB+b+4AQCqADfZbgAAAEM6XFdJTk5UXG91dGxvb2sucHN0ABgAAAAA AAAAOljCQ7B40RGCLwBgCAHK/aKAAAAAAAAAGAAAAAAAAAA6WMJDsHjREYIvAGAIAcr9woAAABAA AACM4oVK3dnREYKxAGAIAcr9EAAAAFJFOiBob25leSBib3VuZAAAQAAyAMCr9Q9mbr0BAwA2AAAA AAACAUMAAQAAADoAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDdAQ9UAgAAAABSdXBlcnQsIFJvZABTTVRQAHJy dXBlcnRAYWVjaS5vcmcAAAAeAEQAAQAAAAwAAABSdXBlcnQsIFJvZAAeAEkAAQAAABAAAABSRTog aG9uZXkgYm91bmQAAgFMAAEAAABuAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAASW5mb3JtZWQg RGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvZiBCZWVrZWVwaW5nIElzc3VlcyBhbmQgQmVlIEJpb2xvZ3kAU01UUABCRUUt TEBDTlNJQk0uQUxCQU5ZLkVEVQAAAB4ATQABAAAAOQAAAEluZm9ybWVkIERpc2N1c3Npb24gb2Yg QmVla2VlcGluZyBJc3N1ZXMgYW5kIEJlZSBCaW9sb2d5AAAAAEAATgAwfdK9HG69AUAAVQAAbRDe HG69AR4AcAABAAAAEAAAAFJFOiBob25leSBib3VuZAACAXEAAQAAABsAAAABvW4cvHhKheKN2d0R 0YKxAGAIAcr9ABJU3z0AHgByAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AcwABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAHQAAQAAABgA AABCRUUtTEBDTlNJQk0uQUxCQU5ZLkVEVQALAAgMAAAAAAIBHQwBAAAAFQAAAFNNVFA6S0hBVkVO U0BURFMuTkVUAAAAAAsAAQ4BAAAAAwAUDgEAAAAeAAEQAQAAABUAAABNZXNzYWdlIHdhcyByZWFk IG9uOgAAAAACAfgPAQAAABAAAACA5lKGb6TPEYJiCAAJwVsIAgH6DwEAAAAQAAAAgOZShm+kzxGC YggACcFbCAIB+w8BAAAASQAAAAAAAAA4obsQBeUQGqG7CAArKlbCAABtc3BzdC5kbGwAAAAAAE5J VEH5v7gBAKoAN9luAAAAQzpcZGF0YVxtYWlsYm94LnBzdAAAAAADAP4PBQAAAAMADTT9NwAAAgF/ AAEAAAAxAAAAMDAwMDAwMDA4MEU2NTI4NjZGQTRDRjExODI2MjA4MDAwOUMxNUIwODY0RUE4NzAw AAAAAG/y ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:36:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: Read: honey bound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjsDAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAIAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5SZWFkIFJlY2VpcHQAAwsBDYAEAAIAAAACAAIAAQqAAQAhAAAAOENFMjg1NEFE REQ5RDExMTgyQjEwMDYwMDgwMUNBRkQAKgcBA5AGAFgEAAAiAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsA KQAAAAAAAgExAAEAAAC/AAAAUENERkVCMDkAAQACAEoAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAA bXNwc3QuZGxsAAAAAABOSVRB+b+4AQCqADfZbgAAAEM6XFdJTk5UXG91dGxvb2sucHN0ABgAAAAA AAAAOljCQ7B40RGCLwBgCAHK/aKAAAAAAAAAGAAAAAAAAAA6WMJDsHjREYIvAGAIAcr9woAAABAA AACM4oVK3dnREYKxAGAIAcr9EAAAAFJFOiBob25leSBib3VuZAAAQAAyAIABuw5pbr0BAwA2AAAA AAACAUMAAQAAADoAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDdAQ9UAgAAAABSdXBlcnQsIFJvZABTTVRQAHJy dXBlcnRAYWVjaS5vcmcAAAAeAEQAAQAAAAwAAABSdXBlcnQsIFJvZAAeAEkAAQAAABAAAABSRTog aG9uZXkgYm91bmQAAgFMAAEAAABuAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAASW5mb3JtZWQg RGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvZiBCZWVrZWVwaW5nIElzc3VlcyBhbmQgQmVlIEJpb2xvZ3kAU01UUABCRUUt TEBDTlNJQk0uQUxCQU5ZLkVEVQAAAB4ATQABAAAAOQAAAEluZm9ybWVkIERpc2N1c3Npb24gb2Yg QmVla2VlcGluZyBJc3N1ZXMgYW5kIEJlZSBCaW9sb2d5AAAAAEAATgAwfdK9HG69AUAAVQAAAsvo HG69AR4AcAABAAAAEAAAAFJFOiBob25leSBib3VuZAACAXEAAQAAABsAAAABvW4cvHhKheKN2d0R 0YKxAGAIAcr9ABMUkNwAHgByAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AcwABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAHQAAQAAABgA AABCRUUtTEBDTlNJQk0uQUxCQU5ZLkVEVQALAAgMAAAAAAIBHQwBAAAAGgAAAFNNVFA6TElCQkVF QEVNQUlMLk1TTi5DT00AAAALAAEOAQAAAAsAHw4BAAAAHgABEAEAAAAVAAAATWVzc2FnZSB3YXMg cmVhZCBvbjoAAAAAAwAGEAAAAAADAAcQAAAAAB4ACBABAAAABAAAANwK/QADABAQKPscAgMAERDk BAAAAgH4DwEAAAAQAAAAjVjN74bzuxGUjBpGwZ4WpgIB+g8BAAAAEAAAAI1Yze+G87sRlIwaRsGe FqYCAfsPAQAAAFEAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAAUFNUUFJYLkRMTAAAAAAAAAAATklU Qfm/uAEAqgA32W4AAABDOlxFeGNoYW5nZVxNQUlMQk9YLlBTVAAAAAADAP4PBQAAAAMADTT9NwAA AgF/AAEAAAAxAAAAMDAwMDAwMDA4RDU4Q0RFRjg2RjNCQjExOTQ4QzFBNDZDMTlFMTZBNkU0ODEy NjAwAAAAADD8 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:51:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roger Sonnenberg Subject: mold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a few frames that got lost in the shuffle and have consequentially become moldy. Are they safe to feed back to the bees. and at this time of year, is that something I really want to do? Thanks, Roger ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:49:59 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Extender Patties In-Reply-To: <3.0.4.32.19980422131815.006aea28@RR1.connriver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Well, I thought of responding line by line to the articles preaching doom (in very general terms) regarding resistance, but on reflection, it occurs to me that there is not, so far, any fact to debate, and so far there are only repetitions of opinions. These dire warnings appear to me to be merely generalisations based on a sketchy understanding of some specific cases that are not necessarily applicable in any other situation -- including the present one. Rather than to try to debate with opinion, I'll make my points and challenge those who believe that they understand the development of resistance to prove their case. If we see that they in fact can provide a specific consistent factual argument that applies to AFB and oxytetracycline, I will accept their wisdom and it shall prevail (I'll lick their boots). Otherwise I will have to continue to regard these rants as I do all urban myths: there things that people somehow want to believe, and which are oft solemnly repeated as fact, but which are, alas, totally unsupported by objective analysis. The challenge: First I need to know about the specific pest is being discussed and about the control to which it is expected to develop resistance. Then I need to know how the pest reproduces, whether sexually or asexually or both and the existing genetic variation in the population and the potential for interbreeding. I need to know the mechanism by which the control works on the pest. Then I need to know the evolutionary mechanism by which resistance is expected to occur in the pest (my expectations being either mutation or selection from an existing resistant sub-population. Are there others? ...Spontaneous generation of resistant specimens?). What is the exact mechanism by which the resistance will increase. How do the pest organisms live? Is it a simple live/die scenario? Are there several scenarios? These are only the tentative questions posed by a rather dim intellect which has been subjected to over half a century of groping with existence (and, more recently, several measures of good honey found in close proximity to Saccaromyces Bayanus). I am sure that younger and fresher minds will subject this question to closer questioning. I sure hope so! There will be other factors, naturally, and any good model will include allowance for initial levels of infestation, natural resistance by the host, effect of a number of (possibly random) outside factors and more... If we really understand what is going on in the development of a specific resistance, the process should be able to be expressed mathematically. Once we have done that, then, of course the amount of pressure from the control -- as expressed as dose or timing -- will be found to be a factor. HOWEVER, in many possible models (*possibly* including this one) that factor may turn out to be minor or inconsequential in relation to some of the other factors. In some cases, it will turn out that high pressure may be preferable, in others less pressure may be desirable and in others, it may not have any direct effect on the theoretical time to resistance. This is not the same as the varroa/Apistan case which, I submit, was predictable from the start. And not due to abuse of the controls. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:13:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: wd6esz Subject: Re: a queen out for a cruise? Comments: To: Larry Krengel In-Reply-To: <353E8320.6DD93506@mc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Larry, Very similar to my queen that was at a few months ago about early January. Just out for no reason. And nobody on the list here had an answer for me then. Rich On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Larry Krengel wrote: > I just had an interesting experience. Last fall I requeened a few of my > hives with Buckfast queens. (I keep about a dozen hives.) This spring > they were all doing well. This PM I was out checking the sugar water > supply, and to my surprise I see one of my Buckfast ladies - large, > dark, not looking like a virgin queen out for a flight - on the back of > one of the hives. No court, just her. I was about to place her in a > queen cage... not being sure what I was going to do with her then... > when she took flight and after inspecting the entrance of one hive, > entered another. She was not challenged. In fact, it appeared she was > not even noticed. > > Except for a virgin queen or a swarm, I have never seen a queen outside > the hive before. I am not quite sure what to make of it. Any thoughts? > > Larry Krengel > Marengo, IL USA > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:13:58 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Otto cycle Greets Curtis and All You mention that Apis itself may be in an evolutionary cul de sac. I beg to differ on a philosophical level. If we look at successful organims I am tempted to classify them as things that can use lots of resources and defend their right to do so. Humans (depending on brand name) occupy and use lots of resources from Antartica to the top of the other side. Rats by means of their intelligence and adaptibility occpuy a similar niche by cohabiting with humans. E.coli, our friendly gut bacteria manages to live at the same range of humans by living in the human gut and actually piggy backing on our rampant sexual nature to transfer itself regularily throughour the human population. (I read somewhere that through a combination of handshakes and sexual activity it takes the offspring of one original e coli cell on a contact organ about five weeks to be present on all continents!!) But Bees such as the Apis mellifera species occupy a range from Denmark to Cape town at the tip of africa and without man being here they would do it just as welll if not better. (in africa bees would love not having humans around which would make up for the little loss in the north) A social insect, using a brain the size of a pinhead almost has the same range as us and a better political system!! Now as far as the otto cycle is concerned, when watching a beehive one will see how bees do a 'silly thing' every now and then. They just do something for the hell of it. Maybe they chew a hole through the side of their tree. This makes a cold wind blow through the hive. The next day they plug it with gum. Those are the scientist in a beehive. They test something, it does not work, so it is fixed. The hole was useless, but propolis that fixed it is quite a handy thing. Oh well. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:15:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Extender Patties MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > This is not the same as the varroa/Apistan case which, I submit, was > predictable from the start. And not due to abuse of the controls. > Allen, Could you expand on this. I'm interested, especially after all the news out of Europe that implied it was misuse that caused resistance. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:21:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Otto cycle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garth wrote: > Now as far as the otto cycle is concerned, when watching a beehive > one will see how bees do a 'silly thing' every now and then. They > just do something for the hell of it. Maybe they chew a hole through > the side of their tree. This makes a cold wind blow through the hive. > The next day they plug it with gum. Those are the scientist in a > beehive. They test something, it does not work, so it is fixed. The > hole was useless, but propolis that fixed it is quite a handy thing. Garth, Sounds more like a bunch of engineers. They always want to make something a little bit better- so why not add a hole here and there? If it works, then the scientist will come in and try to explain why. Lot more fun being an engineer. Bill Truesdell Bath. ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:39:03 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: marking queens Hi Robert I have marked a number of queens with gold and green nail polish and have found no adverse effects with the stuff made by Yardleys. I did however kill two queens with some no-name brand stuff that had a really stinky solvent. Try those sort of ultra-modern won't hurt your nails types - the logic there would be that one of the ways nail polish damages ones fingers is to dissolve stuff out of the nail. This stuff will be things like fats and waxes. Bees also have a layer of cuticular hydrocarbons that would be damaged, so try to get hold of a polish that says it won't damage your nails. I did a really silly thing a while back when I tried to superglue some little tags onto a few queens - superglue has a really terrible cyanide containing compound, that, if it does not kill the queen makes a big white stain on her!! (pays to read label first I geuss) Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:23:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Robert J. Cessac" Subject: [Fwd: Gritty Fire Ants] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------937127238A063E46E43D9637" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------937127238A063E46E43D9637 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those bee keepers that live in the southern US that have to put up with fire ants, here is a possible solution. When I moved from Louisiana long time ago, these pest were in great numbers, and hard to get rid of even with chemicals. This may be a solution for other types of ants also. Bob -- Robert Cessac K-B Ranch Natural Beef & Honey 2362 St. Rt. O Higbee, MO 65257 rcessac@mail.coin.missouri.edu --------------937127238A063E46E43D9637 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from Vulcan.taranaki.ac.nz (majordom@vulcan.taranaki.ac.nz [203.97.67.70]) by coins0.coin.missouri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA27122 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:35:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by Vulcan.taranaki.ac.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13401 for graze-l-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 00:10:45 +1200 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980423061235.0069d018@mail.koyote.com> X-Sender: ezhandle@mail.koyote.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 06:12:35 -0500 To: Graze List From: Jon Alan Gammon Subject: Gritty Fire Ants Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-graze-l@Vulcan.taranaki.ac.nz Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Jon Alan Gammon Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by coins0.coin.missouri.edu id IAA02389 April 23, 1998 A lot of folks on this list have a problem with fire ants. We have been looking for a solution to them for awhile. The act of intensive grazing = is a very good solution as the creatures don=92t like to be disturbed and mo= ve to the fence rows quickly under intense grazing. However, death is what is wanted not relocation and preferably low cost without herbicides. We have heard from the organic folks that Grits applied to a mound will eradicate them. We have now tried this several times and it does appear = to work. We have now gotten rid of quite a few mounds and are looking at broadcasting the Grits for wide area treatment. I would suggest to those with the pest from Mobile, that they give this a try. I don=92t know how little can be used as Barbara was fairly liberal= in her application on these mounds, but the effect was very clear after a couple of weeks. The only thing we can figure is that they feed the quee= n and she explodes when the Grit expands. It also appears that the Grits need to be fresh, right out of the box or bag. I realize that the problem and the solution are a bit foreign to many of our Midwestern friends. This might be a good time to start learning about other real parts of the world outside of that area. You might also be pleased to know that Grits are made from good corn grown in the Midwes= t as well as elsewhere. This could be another good market for those skille= d in its growth. Best Regards, Jon Alan Gammon P.O. Box 559 Ben Franklin, Texas 75415 - 0559 903 325 4210 phone 903 325 4322 fax ezhandle@koyote.com Replacement Dairy Heifers and Equipment dedicated to pasture productivity --------------937127238A063E46E43D9637-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:18:00 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Graham Read EOS Subject: UK parliament debate on the threat of Varroa Archie Norman (MP for Tunbridge Wells) tabled a set of questions for a debate in parliament yesterday (22nd April) regarding the threat of Varroa & a lack of alternative treaments in the UK, in particular the recent change to the legal status of Apistan as a chemical treatement. ".. since 11 August 1997, the (UK) Government .... .... redefined bees as food-producing animals. The consequence of that seemingly innocuous measure was to outlaw for use in beekeeping some of the crucial pesticides that could help to tackle the problem--notably, a pesticide called Apistan. Apistan is the most widely used chemical for dealing with the varroa mite in southern Europe, Germany and the United States. We now depend almost wholly on a single pesticide, Bayvarol.... " For a rather lengthy read see the full text of yesterday's debate at the UK parliament web site: http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199798/cmhansrd/cm9 80422/debtext/80422-06.htm#80422-06_head0 Regards Graham Read (2 hives, Hampshire, UK) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:48:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: wax worms in honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I have a bucket full of honey I extracted from a super which had a little wax worm larvae in it, as well as what appears to be their waste. I have so far hesitated to sell this, but since I am now out of honey except for this, I am wondering if it is ok to sell it. I use a fine mesh filter bag which is sold at most bee supply places; I think you know the one I mean. I am told it is finer than what is required to qualify honey as "Canada Grade A". Is it normal to have the odd wax moth larvae in comb, and to sell the extracted honey? And therefore....is it ok for me to sell this? Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 6 colonies, soon 12....:) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:33:48 -0400 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: wax worms in honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian Watson wrote: > Is it normal to have the odd wax > moth larvae in comb, and to sell the extracted honey? > And therefore....is it ok for me to sell this? I think it is a bit unusual to get wax worm larvae in extracted honey, but if brood is present in honey super frames, small bee larvae can easily get spun into the extracted honey. I would not sell honey containing wax worm larvae or their droppings, even if it were strained. (However, I might use it myself if it were adequately cleaned.) On the other hand, I would sell honey if strained free of bee larvae. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:58:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: wax worms in honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian, When I extract I expect to see bees, bee larva, bee parts, propolis, pollen, even an occasional splinter from a frame, but it all gets filtered out by the double mesh screens I use. My guess is that most all beekeepers have a bunch of junk come out of the extractor but it is cleaned out by filtering. Are you sure they are wax moth larva and not bee larva or pupa parts? Anyway, it sure is *raw* honey with a protein supplement. May fetch premium prices. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME Ian Watson wrote: > Hi all > > I have a bucket full of honey I extracted from a super > which had a little wax worm larvae in it, as well as what > appears to be their waste. I have so far hesitated to > sell this, but since I am now out of honey except for > this, I am wondering if it is ok to sell it. I use a fine > mesh filter bag which is sold at most bee supply > places; I think you know the one I mean. I am told > it is finer than what is required to qualify honey as > "Canada Grade A". Is it normal to have the odd wax > moth larvae in comb, and to sell the extracted honey? > And therefore....is it ok for me to sell this? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:57:31 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Durk Ellison Subject: Apitherapy Knowledge Review Course MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, The American Apitherapy Society (AAS) has announced that the Apitherapy Knowledge Review Course (AKRC) will run in conjunction with the preliminary course offerings of the Eastern Apicultural Society (EAS) meeting this summer, July 13 to 15. The AKRC will be held at Seven Springs Ski Resort in Champion, Pennsylvania. This 2-1/2 day course will provide two levels of study for individuals interested in the healing properties of products from the beehive. The information will be presented by a recognized and experienced group of practicing apitherapists. They have designed the course for other apitherapists, patients of apitherapy, beekeepers and medical practitioners. All educational materials and certificates of attendance will be provided by the AAS. The cost for each level of training is $250 with an early registration discount of $225 for those signed up by May 15. Lunches and lodging are available through the ski resort at special rates. For registration information contact : Linda Day, American Apitherapy Society e-mail : Linda.Day@hopewell.net Regards from: Durk Ellison Vantaa, Finland BeeNet : 240:346/300.8 e-mail : Durk.Ellison@beenet.pp.sci.fi Packet : oh2zas @ oh2rbt.#hki.fin.eu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:08:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: wax worms in honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Bill Truesdell >Are you sure they are wax moth larva and not bee larva or pupa parts? Hi Bill Yes, it is moth larvae. I should have mentioned that we didn't extract the supers right away, and while they were sitting in my brothers kitchen, the wax moths were able to get in. I wasn't expecting it to happen, or I would have either extracted sooner, or put the supers in the freezer. We also use queen excluders, so I know they are wax moth larvae. >Anyway, it sure is *raw* honey with a protein supplement. May fetch >premium prices. Hehehe....actually, I thought of putting "high protein" on the label. (just kidding..;) Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 6 colonies; soon 12...;) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:16:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Fw: Terramycin being stored? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I sent this question the the list a few days ago but got no responses, so I am sending it again in case it didn't make it through the first time:) We were out de-queening hives the other day in preparation for new queens, and I noticed in one strong colony, which I had treated with terramycin and dextrose (because it's very fine and mixes well) that it appeared the bees had stored the dust in the comb, in the outer area where they would normally put pollen. I didn't know they did this, although it seems to be a good idea. Is this normal? Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 6 colonies and soon 12 :) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:43:17 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777 Subject: Re: Beesue; beekeeper liability Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit For British Beekeepers' Association information ask Sally/Adrian@BBKA.DEMON.CO.UK Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:43:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777 Subject: Re: Otto cycle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Good point, Garth, Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:43:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777 Subject: Re: Extender Patties Comments: To: allend@internode.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Does saccaromyces bayanus+ honey produce mead? As various species and strains of saccaromyces, for example saccaromyces carlsbergiensis, may be selected for high tolerance to their own waste products, surely mites will be selected for tolerance to chemical controls. As mites breed at a slower rate than yeasts and bacteria the process will probably take longer. I agree that scientific tests rather than anecdote and hype are needed. Who's going to pay? Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:38:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: petty Subject: real science MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit science is useful in that it is often offers a key to deeper understanding which can open doors to the exquisite beauty of the world around us. does it have practical everyday use? hasn't anyone ever asked you how your bees know where they are going? where do you draw the line between science and 'everyday stuff that you need to know'? does a beekeeper NEED to know how bees navigate? only if she wants to really celebrate the wonder of bees in yet another way! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:46:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Elizabeth Vogt Subject: Re: real science MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AGREE!! Thanks for your succinct and meaningful contribution ... Elizabeth ---------- > From: petty > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: real science > Date: Thursday, April 23, 1998 4:38 PM > > science is useful in that it is often offers a key to deeper understanding > which can open doors to the exquisite beauty of the world around us. > > does it have practical everyday use? hasn't anyone ever asked you how your > bees know where they are going? > where do you draw the line between science and 'everyday stuff that you > need to know'? does a beekeeper NEED to know how bees navigate? only if > she wants to really celebrate the wonder of bees in yet another way! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:27:11 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Peter Amschel Subject: Re: Otto cycle In-Reply-To: <02264772201606@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, Chris, but it is God who gets the credit for making bees, not evolution or genetic scientists. > If left to themselves bees may be in a very long evolutionary cul de sac. > Genetic engineers may be plotting a new apis species with a long tongue, the > ability to work at all temperatures, pest and disease resistance, regular and > predictable reproductive habits and no sting. > > Chris Slade > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:26:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Elizabeth Vogt Subject: "Extra" comb ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tomorrow is my 1st week inspection of my 5 hives that I set up last week (from bee packages via Ruhl's in Portland). This evening, after replacing their sugar syrup in the board feeders, I couldn't help myself and peeked into each hive, removing the outer lid, then slightly lifting up the inner, masonite lid. Each hive had comb hanging down from the inner lid into the hive box between the frames ... This comb had no larvae, and I didn't lift out any frames to see if there were brood (thus ofcourse a productive queen), bc. I'll be doing that tomorrow with the aid of my smoker ... I don't recall reading about this "extra" comb, nor hearing about it in my bee class. Is this "normal"? Sincerely, Elizabeth ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:49:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Otto cycle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, Chris, but it is God >who gets the credit for making bees, not evolution or >genetic scientists. I really should know better, but I can't resist answering this simplistic comment. I suppose the world was created in about 6000 years also, and man co-existed with the dinosaurs, along with other nonsense, despite the plethora of scientific evidence to the contrary. Maybe God believes in evolution too? Ian Watson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:02:28 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Extender Patties Comments: To: CSlade777 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Does saccaromyces bayanus+ honey produce mead? Yup, and darn good mead too! > As various species and > strains of saccaromyces, for example saccaromyces carlsbergiensis, may be > selected for high tolerance to their own waste products, surely mites > will be selected for tolerance to chemical controls. As mites breed at a > slower rate than yeasts and bacteria the process will probably take > longer. I agree that scientific tests rather than anecdote and hype are > needed. That's the truth. > Who's going to pay? We can pay now... or we can pay later (and pay and pay). Allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:31:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: "Extra" comb ? About comb hanging down from the inner lid into the hive box between the frames I have several questions: 1) How many frames do you have in each box? 2) How far apart are they spaced? 3) Do the frames have foundation wax sheets in them? I believe that if you have the right number of frames and they are spaced correctly that it will be almost impossible to see what you have described. The frames should be close enough to touch each other with a small gap at each end of the box (next to the wall). I assume you are using the 10 frame standard Langstroth box. Normally Italian honeybees build their comb centered 1 3/8 inches (35 cm) apart. That's the shoulder to shoulder width of normal frames. On the other hand, I've also had bees build comb hanging from the top bar right next to sheet of foundation even though I had my frames side by side and touching shoulders, but I've only had them hanging from the lid if I left too big a gap somewhere (for example if I was missing a frame or two). Layne Westover College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:12:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Elizabeth Vogt Subject: Re: "Extra" comb ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you Musashi --- I have 9 frames in each hive, as was recommended by several beekeepers ... and they are not perfectly spaced ... I thought perhaps it was a spacing problem ... Yes they have foundation wax in them ... Next question: should I remove this "extra" comb when I open my hives tomorrow? Thanks. Elizabeth ---------- > From: Musashi > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: "Extra" comb ? > Date: Thursday, April 23, 1998 9:31 PM > > About comb hanging down from the inner lid into the hive box between the frames > I have several questions: > 1) How many frames do you have in each box? > 2) How far apart are they spaced? > 3) Do the frames have foundation wax sheets in them? > I believe that if you have the right number of frames and they are spaced > correctly that it will be almost impossible to see what you have described. > The frames should be close enough to touch each other with a small gap at > each end of the box (next to the wall). I assume you are using the 10 frame > standard Langstroth box. Normally Italian honeybees build their comb centered > 1 3/8 inches (35 cm) apart. That's the shoulder to shoulder width of normal > frames. > > On the other hand, I've also had bees build comb hanging from the top bar > right next to sheet of foundation even though I had my frames side by side and > touching shoulders, but I've only had them hanging from the lid if I left too > big a gap somewhere (for example if I was missing a frame or two). > > Layne Westover > College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:28:03 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Hive beetles Hi All I just saw Ians post about the wax worms in the supers. I have once or twice had the experience of having a few 'worms' appear in honey when I extracted it. What happens here is that if a hive has capped honey and some pollen reserves stored together there are these little black beetles that will lay an egg or twenty in each cell filled with pollen. These are a huge pest actually and will also damage brood in weak hives. If one extracts a pollen/beetle/honey frame, you get little white jobbies in the honey, that require quite intensive straining to get rid of. Of late I have beun trying to get my bees not to store in supers by giving ample storage space in brood boxes so as to avoid this issue. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:52:38 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Misuse of drug ? In-Reply-To: <353F5B14.9E437354@clinic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Allen Dick wrote: >> This is not the same as the varroa/Apistan case which, I submit, was >> predictable from the start. And not due to abuse of the controls. and Bill Truesdell asked: >Could you expand on this. I'm interested, especially after all the news out of >Europe that implied it was misuse that caused resistance. I could not agree more with the conclusions of Allen : it's not the misuse but the *exclusive* use of the fluvalinate drug which induced the Varroa resistance ! The *misuse* increase the velocity of the process. Mechanism = You kill the Varroas with this drug, all of them but *one or two*. These two are really not resistant yet but are only groggy for some reason. They'll begin the ancestors of all the future Varroas of your colony. The next time you'll use "the same drug" : more Varroas will not be quite killed but only will remain groggy, etc. Thus : It's important to dispose of "some" "different" means to attack Varroa ! It's not what people was doing : Apistan *was* too easy to use (WAS!!!). Actually, here, it's *out* of use ! Definitely ! Jean-Marie Owner of the french list "ABEILLES" on majordomo@fundp.ac.be ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:31:42 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: IBRA Subject: Re: Bees and Canola In-Reply-To: <19525256600560@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, Why not become a member of IBRA? we already have the answers to a lot of the questions you are about to ask in your search for material on pollinators. The IBRA information is available to non Members but members get it at a cheaper rate! Check out our web site @ http://www.cf.ac.uk/ibra/index.html Good luck Richard Jones =================================================== Richard Jones, Director International Bee Research Association 18 North Road, Cardiff CF1 3DY, UK Tel: (+44) 1222 372409 Fax: (+44) 1222 665522 Email: ibra@cf.ac.uk =================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 04:51:32 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Misuse of drug ? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > The *misuse* increase the velocity of the process. Thanks for the support, and the explanation. I still think though that it has not been adequately *proven* that misuse accelerated the development of resistance. Repetition of a theory by many people and publications does not make it any more proven, only more popular. And any student of history is well aware of the bizarre things people have believed and continue to believe en masse and worldwide. *Perhaps* misuse did accelerate resistance -- but has this actually been proven? Or is it just a guess? (and a convenient guess that lets the regulators, researchers and chemical companies off the hook, but blames the beekeepers for the inevitable? Granted, unapproved uses did occur, but is there *any* real; proof that they were involved in the resistance process, or were they just "first at the scene of the crime"? Or "in the neighbourhood at the time"? I've heard it said that it was known from the start by researchers that fluvalinate would have a probable maximum useful life as a varroa control of around ten years before resistance could be expected to appear if it were employed widely. According to that line of thought, that known fact was one reason why Apistan was marketed at such amazingly high prices compared to actual material cost. The convenience and reliability features of the product justified the high cost to enough buyers to get a quick payback -- and hopefully a profit -- for the manufacturer during the projected short product life, but it was known from the start that it also would unavoidably encourage alternate home-made formulations to be used. It was a trade-off: the best possible under the circumstances. If the marketer had confidence in the longevity of the product and the ultimate long term profit stream and there was a real, rather than stated, threat of loss of product effectiveness from alternate fluvalinate use, a pricing more competitive with the raw chemical used could have removed the incentive to make home treatments. Whether this is just a convenient interpretation of the facts or actual history is pretty well impossible to prove, and I guess -- as in most things -- people will choose their preferred explanation amongst the equally plausible ones according to personal taste. Personally, I assume that chemical companies and their marketing people behave rationally, and this explanation fits. Moreover, it suggests that 1.) either the chemical company could not achieve a price sufficiently low to effectively eliminate the incentive to make alternate home formulations, or 2.) that they knew such formulations were not a real threat and that their commercial product would be dead in a bit more than ten years regardless of what anyone did. (The only other move on the board would have been to provide an alternate chemical treatment and schedule for alternating applications, perhaps even making and distributing completely different strips in alternating years -- and that was a tall order). If it were not a difficult enough problem to come up with a product that worked, the marketer and the beekeepers were hamstrung by a system that makes licencing a product risky and very costly in the name of consumer and environmental protection. Moreover, the civil legal system in some countries strongly discourages participation in anything but very safe or very profitable products, so marketing economical alternate treatments, although technically quite feasible was not attractive. Anyhow, back to the issue here: it is very interesting that resistance is appearing simultaneously and independantly at widely separated locales after about ten years of use -- if I've gotten this right. I guess we have to ask: is this phenomenon originating only in beehives where alternate fluvalinate formulations were used? If so, *when* were they used? Were these hives ones that were among the very first to use fluvalinate? Is cause and effect actually proven here _or only inferred_? I lack the detailed information to make a conclusion. Maybe the facts have been independantly researched and are known. Maybe a scientific study of the ocurrance has been made, reviewed, and published. If so, then I'd like to know about it. If not, I presume it is like many news stories: inadequately researched., sensational, lacking depth, and serving an agenda. I think that it is far from properly established that the resistance is due to unapproved use, or 'abuse' as some like to term it. But maybe I am just short on facts. If so, please fill me in. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 07:55:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Misuse of drug ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen, Thanks. Any thoughts, guesses why resistance is in Italy and Florida first and seems to not have taken hold in northern climes in Europe... or has it? Bill Truesdell Bath, ME Allen Dick wrote: > I've heard it said that it was known from the start by researchers that > fluvalinate would have a probable maximum useful life as a varroa control > of around ten years before resistance could be expected to appear if it > were employed widely. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:20:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: packaging In-Reply-To: <002201bd6d6a$0933e9c0$d632e8d0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Herb, Mid-Con sells both plastic and tin containers in those sizes.Brushy Mountain sells only the two ounce tin containers(for Beeswax furniture polish).I don't have their phone numbers at hand. Good Luck, Garry Libby Boston,USA LibBEE@email.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:05:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Misuse of drug ? In-Reply-To: <3540A7E8.D28E00B6@clinic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ...another question is: how closely or distantly related are the European vs. North American mites? I wonder if this has been determined. One or the other (it's been claimed) is closer to the Asian native varroa. Are we then dealing with a different strain than the Europeans, and what might be the implications? of this? Perhaps this is a moot point, given that tolerant mites are already present in Florida. But it would be helpful in understanding just what is taking place. I'd also be very interested in any comments with regard to Bill's query. >Allen, >Thanks. Any thoughts, guesses why resistance is in Italy and Florida first and >seems to not have taken hold in northern climes in Europe... or has it? >Bill Truesdell >Bath, ME > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:17:19 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Re: Misuse of drug ? In-Reply-To: <3540A7E8.D28E00B6@clinic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello all ! >Bill Truesdell wrote >Thanks. Any thoughts, guesses why resistance is in Italy and Florida first and >seems to not have taken hold in northern climes in Europe... or has it? Salut Bill ! For your guidance, we are here in Belgium with a lot of Varroa which are resistant to Fluvalinate and our climate if quite not the one of Florida :-) I'm thinking that, this year we had not yet 10 days with more than 20 deg C. Perhaps in Denmark or Sweden (more than 1000 miles more in the North. This winter and spring many colonies collapsed in Switserland and in Alsace for the reason of too much Varroa in spite of the normal correct Apistan treatment. >Allen Dick wrote: >> I've heard it said that it was known from the start by researchers that >> fluvalinate would have a probable maximum useful life as a varroa control >> of around ten years before resistance could be expected to appear if it >> were employed widely. OK Allen ! For the first and our misfortune there are about 10 years we are using APISTAN strips. And the second, we are observing a migratory flow across Belgium the South is more contaminated than the North, in spite of a harder climate in the South. Hope this helps, but doesn't give any consolation ! IMHO : the worst will come yet :-(( Jean-Marie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:10:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rod Billett Subject: Replacing frames with old comb.. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm a new-bie to this beekeeping hobby, and have just recieved and set up my first hive earlier this week. And I have a couple of questions... Since yall will probably ask about geography, I am located in the SouthEastern US (SouthCarolina) We have relativly mild winters, 10-15F is about the lowest temperatures, but we do have a few days in the 60F range in Dec, Jan, and Feb. - I ordered my bee's as a 4 frame Nuc, and the comb on the frames that I recieved is very very dark or "We'll Used"! I have heard that older comb, altho not necessarily bad, isnt all that good either. Therefore I am wishing to implement a plan that will allow me to remove these 4 frames from the hive. I am running 10 frames in the hive, so the four nuc frames are in the center, with three new foundation frames on either side. What I have thought about doing, is as the neighboring frames with foundation get completely/nearly drawn into comb (on both sides of the foundation) I will move those two frames into the center, and shift the old combs towards the sides. Repeating this until the old frames are the outermost frames. O - Old Frame N - New Frame N N N O O O O N N N - Current Setup N N O O N N O O N N - First 'Shift' N O O N N N N O O N - Second 'Shift' O O N N N N N N O O - Third 'Shift' Now to throw a wrinkle into the whole picture... I am wanting to divide the hive into two. If I can maintain a healthy strong hive, would it be possible to divide and requeen late this summer (say, August) (I am not too concerned about surplus honey this year). I am willing to feed them (Pollen/Sugar water) to promote vigorus population growth this summer, and to sustain them over the winter. Or should I wait until early next spring?? What is concerning me, is that we had quite a few beekeepers report swarms in early march this year, and I wouldnt want to 'lose' my efforts to a swarm because I didnt divide this year, yet I dont want to lose them all because I did divide this year. Once I do the divide, (and given the anticipated layout of the frames with Honey, Pollen, and Brood) here is how the frames might be organized. O1 - Old Frame (Hopefully Honey) O2 - Old Frame (Hopefully Pollen/Honey) N - New Drawn Frames (Hopefully Brood ) F - Frames with Foundation (added after the divide) O1 O2 N N N N N N O2 O1 - Before Divide F F O1 N N N O2 F F F and F F O1 N N N O2 F F F I can then go through the 'shifting process' to eliminate the old comb by the end of next year. While at the same time, Given good nectar flows, I should be able to expect some surplus honey. I would welcome and value feedback from anyone to help me understand if this is an OK plan, or if I am possibly subjecting myself to a disaster. Thanks Rod Billett Columbia, South Carolina, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:25:54 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Origins of Varroa (was: Misuse of drugs?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I have heard of two "origins" of Varroa which are present in the US: varroa that came into the states from Europe and varroa that came into the states from Japan. This is hearsay, second hand from a beekeeper who got it from a researcher who also keeps bees. In other words, I CANNOT document it. But my understanding is that there are two distinct strains of Varroa (European and Japanese) both with a common ancestry (SE Asia). It may be perhaps that one strain is more prone to developing resistense to Apistan than the other strain, possibly the influence of genetic selection in an island environment vs a mainland environment. I do not know the geography of Italy enough to know exactly where the resistant strain first originated, but might "islands" or "oceans" be a common denominator rather than "product misuse"? I don't think that assertions that resistence has not taken hold in Northern climes are valid. Pockets of resistence have been documented in the US in both South Dakota and Pennsylvania, with a common bond that the bees had been in Florida. And again there's the possibity of an ocean influenced environment. Admittedly this is stretching it, but this functional geographic illiterate pictures the ocean's (sea's) influence on the climates of Japan, Italy and Florida to be at least a remote possibility. Hey, why not? Anyway I don't think, no, I'm sure no one really knows. In the meantime look for resistent mites coming to a neighborhood near YOU! Aaron Morris - thinking better answers only come from better questions! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:45:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Elizabeth Vogt questions Elizabeth Vogt s bees built comb down from her inner cover in between her frames of foundation. Elizabeth, I am afraid that your beekeeper friends gave you advice that was not the best. In supers, it is best to have nine combs and some even advocate eight. This because it has been demonstrated that when the bees build out the combs deeper, which they will do with fewer combs, the extra honey that is stored significantly exceeds that which would be stored with ten frames. In other words, nine combs will hold more honey than ten, and eight will hold even more! In addition, when the combs are built out well beyond the wooden frames, uncapping, for extraction, is much faster and easier. However, in a brood nest, which you are trying to have the bees construct, ten frames should be used. Under normal circumstances, the queen will not lay in the two end frames and they will be kept more or less full of honey and pollen. That leaves eight frames for brood. If you only have nine frames in a brood nest, the queen still will not lay in the end frames, so that leaves only seven frames for brood. That is a reduction of 1/8th or 12.5% for brood! Use ten frames in the brood nest. Further, even in a super, you should not start the bees on nine frames of foundation, or they will do just what you experienced. Instead, start them on ten frames so there will not be any extra spacing. The bees will start drawing comb in the center frames and go outwards, leaving the end frames until last. When you have eight frames at least 50% drawn (some will be 100% drawn), remove both end frames. Put one back, in the center, take the center frame and put it on one end. Re-space the nine frames, more or less equally. A finger works well for that. Now the bees will continue to drawn out the frames properly to fill the super. Hope this helps. Lloyd LloydSpear@email.msn.com Owner, Ross Rounds the finest in comb honey production. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:04:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Elizabeth Vogt Subject: Re: Elizabeth Vogt questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Lloyd and others for setting me straight re: the need for 10 frames in the brood hives ... I take responsibility for messing up, i.e., I think I'm the confused one, not those with whom I have spoken. I will add that 10th frame this morning, and re-space! Sincerely, Elizabeth ---------- > From: Lloyd Spear > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Elizabeth Vogt questions > Date: Friday, April 24, 1998 7:45 AM > > Elizabeth Vogt s bees built comb down from her inner cover in between her > frames of foundation. > Elizabeth, I am afraid that your beekeeper friends gave you advice that was > not the best. In supers, it is best to have nine combs and some even > advocate eight. This because it has been demonstrated that when the bees > build out the combs deeper, which they will do with fewer combs, the extra > honey that is stored significantly exceeds that which would be stored with > ten frames. In other words, nine combs will hold more honey than ten, and > eight will hold even more! In addition, when the combs are built out well > beyond the wooden frames, uncapping, for extraction, is much faster and > easier. > However, in a brood nest, which you are trying to have the bees construct, > ten frames should be used. Under normal circumstances, the queen will not > lay in the two end frames and they will be kept more or less full of honey > and pollen. That leaves eight frames for brood. If you only have nine > frames in a brood nest, the queen still will not lay in the end frames, so > that leaves only seven frames for brood. That is a reduction of 1/8th or > 12.5% for brood! Use ten frames in the brood nest. > Further, even in a super, you should not start the bees on nine frames of > foundation, or they will do just what you experienced. Instead, start them > on ten frames so there will not be any extra spacing. The bees will start > drawing comb in the center frames and go outwards, leaving the end frames > until last. When you have eight frames at least 50% drawn (some will be > 100% drawn), remove both end frames. Put one back, in the center, take the > center frame and put it on one end. Re-space the nine frames, more or less > equally. A finger works well for that. Now the bees will continue to drawn > out the frames properly to fill the super. > Hope this helps. > Lloyd > LloydSpear@email.msn.com > Owner, Ross Rounds the finest in comb honey production. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:49:23 CST6CDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BLANE WHITE Organization: Minnesota Dept of Agriculture Subject: Re: Origins of Varroa (was: Misuse of drugs?) In-Reply-To: <980424.103640.EDT.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> Hi Aaron and all, Work done at the Baton Rouge Lab indicates that the varroa mites in Europe and the US are similar to the mites in Russia and different from the varroa in South America and Japan. This would indicate that our mites here in the US were most likely imported from Europe. As far as where fluvalinate resistance is someone commented earlier about spread this spring up the east coast out of Flordia but they are actually a year late. Since the resistant mites were found in Flordia after the spring shipping season and were later found in SD and other states in bees shipped out of Flordia they were most likely spread to scattered areas across the eastern half of the US last spring. All beekeepers should check after treatment with apistan to make sure it actually worked as we don't know where these mites have already spread to. The recent reports here indicated spread continues in Europe and here it will be faster since we move bees more here in the US. Many of those bees in Flordia are only there during the winter and are in the northern US during the summer so I don't really think that weather in Flordia has anything to due with development of resistance exposure to fluvalinate is the cause. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White State Apiary Inspector Minnesota Department of Agriculture 90 W Plato Blvd St Paul, MN 55107 http://www.mda.state.mn.us phone 612-296-0591 fax 612-297-2504 blane.white@state.mn.us ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:01:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: "Extra" comb ? Elizabeth, Lloyd Spears gives excellent advice on how to manage comb building in brood boxes and supers for honey production, and yes, if it were me, I would remove this extra comb from the inner lid when you open your hives tomorrow to respace the frames. If they just have honey in them, after brushing off the bees I would just pop them into my mouth and enjoy. I don't intentionally make mistakes with my bees, but it always amazes me how much more I learn from my "mistakes" than I do from my "successes." For learning, do what you think is right and see what happens. As many others have so aptly stated: "The bees will let you know." Layne Westover College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:11:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: "Extra comb?" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Elizabeth et al: When experienced beekeepers recommend using only 9 frames in the brood nest, they are usu. talking about older, used frames. With new frames and foundation, always use the full complement of 10 frames, so all combs are built nice and even, and to uniforn thickness. And make sure the frames are pressed tight together, shoulder-to-shoulder when you are closing up the hive. (The extra space should be about equal at both side-walls.) After a few seasons, there will be some buildup of wax and propolis on the frames, and sometimes they swell a bit due to moisture. For that reason, many beekeepers DO use only 9 frames in the hives. I for one certainly prefer this. The combs are almost (not quite) as close together as with 10 frames, and the balance of the extra space remains at the side-walls. This arrangement improves ventilation and makes hive inspection a bit faster (which is more important if you are operating larger numbers of hives). Some would argue against this, but it is more of a personal preference. Brood comb spacing in nature is usually around 1 3/8 " center-to-center, but it can vary to more like 1 1/2", and some hives in Europe are actually designed to maintain the wider spacing (frames are 1.5" wide). I must disagree with Lloyd about 9 vs. 10 frames for brood, though. He mentioned that the queen won't use the end combs, so you only end up with 7 containing brood. I find that this is not necessarily so. I have often seen brood right out to the walls, and even so, since virtually all brood chambers are comprised of two boxes, not just one, there is never any lack of space for the queen's laying anyway. She certainly doesn't need all of 18 or 20 combs, so this whole issue really isn't of any significance in that regard. Well, anyway, I hope you find this information helpful. Regards, Joel Govostes Freeville, NY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:32:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T'N'T Apiaries Subject: Re: Job's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >For a school class I have to "pick" a job. So I picked Commercial beekeeping. You don't seem to be getting much help on this one Nick. Your question seems as relevant as the others on the list these days and it was topic of conversation as we went through a couple of yards yesterday. Hope this gives you a little different view. Someone will likely list out all the "beekeeping" jobs of their commercial apiary for you. There are books and articles that follow through the season and depending where the operation is located they will very greatly. Commercial beekeeping covers a wide area. We are honey producers, but there are also queen and nuc producers, pollinators and combinations of the all these. >What you do, We thought the following expression fits this occupation very well: Jack of All Trades, Master of None. We are just getting going for the season so things are quite varied. Resently I have been the following: Mechanic - Changed two pinion seals and a power steering hose. Financial Officer - Finished the Income Tax Forms and got all the paper work in to the bank for another year. Carpenter - Finished cutting pieces for new lids and intalled a new exterior door in the shop. Plumber - Installed a new hot water tank and changed some lines around. Ranchhand - Built two new access gates to pastures and helped move a landowners bulls to the next field so they'd leave my hives alone. Personel Officer - Interviewed and hired some more staff. Truck Driver - Made a 1000 mile run for some equipment. Light Equipment Operator - Rebuilt and graveled the accesses to a some of our yards. Company Publicist - Went to annual machinery auction and chatted up the local landowners. Computer Programer - Build a couple of programs for our specific needs. Painter - Always painting to do. Pest Control -Built bear fences. Baited skunks and rodents. Welder - Modified some equipment and worked on a couple of new ideas. Arbourist - Removed or modified the vegetation & trees in and around some of our sights and access roads. I'm sure I'm forgeting something and who knows what I'll be next week. My neighbouring Beekeeper was sandblasting and repainting a 1 Ton. Autobody Repairman? "Real" Beekeeping? We looked in some hives yesterday to assess queens and feed. >Daily hours, From March 1st to the end of October or middle of November, I'm up by the latest six thirty and may go to bed by eleven. Other than meals most of these hours are related to the business. Now that I have a infant daughter I intend not to work Sundays this season. It has been traditionally the day for repairs and to line up things for the crew to do during the next week. During the winter there is still work to be done, but we pick our hours and days. If we want to hold down the couch for the day or travel it's our choice. Most of the operations in the area keep similar hours. >Wage (good bad years) Tough question for us, because we don't break it down (Don't think we really want to know what an hour of our time is worth). We are making a good return on investment and for the most part we enjoy the life. On average the business gives us the finances to do the things we want to do and put some away. We say on average, because like most forms of agriculture, some years you make money and others you have losses. >training Education As much practical experience as possible in different areas, because you'll use it (See above list of Occupations) . I would recommend at least a 1 year College or night school course in business: Basic Accounting, tax law, employment skills, etc. It maybe a lifestyle choice for you, but it is still a business and you have to deal with other businesses, banks and government. When it comes to beekeeping. Experience, experience, experience. Volunteer to help other beekeepers in your area. Even when I had a couple hundred hive of my own, I would offer a hand to beekeepers running what I thought were sound operations. Many times I would receive help or equipment in return. This was really nice, but the experience was the real payback. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:31:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Shilliff Subject: essential oils Does anyone have any new info/updates/successes on treatment of mites using essential oils? Bob Noel did some good research 2 years ago and not much has been published since then. Nick Shilliff shilliff @juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:54:43 +0300 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: Re: Elizabeth Vogt questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > In supers, it is best to have nine combs and some even > advocate eight. This because it has been demonstrated that when the bees > build out the combs deeper, which they will do with fewer combs, the extra > honey that is stored significantly exceeds that which would be stored with > ten frames. In other words, nine combs will hold more honey than ten, and > eight will hold even more! In addition, when the combs are built out well > beyond the wooden frames, uncapping, for extraction, is much faster and > easier. nine to ???? eight in what space??? and the queen will never start to lay eggs in that deeper cells!!! and with a "small" beespace between the combs in the broodbox; only "one" bee can be in. With the wider spacing in the broodchamber it needs "two" bees to fill the space They have to fill that space to avoid the leak of warmth. And two bees are more than one to do that, so two time more bees to warmth the hive "Beestreets are for one bee" Center-to-center is 35 mm. or 1 3/8" Ask them self; they will tell you!!! regards to all and specialy to the junos ;-), jan ------------------------------------------------- home of the drone frame method. the only solution after the resistence again fluvalinate ------------------------------------------------- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html Jan Tempelman / Ineke Drabbe | mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl Sterremos 16 3069 AS Rotterdam, The Netherlands Tel/Fax (SOMETIMES) XX 31 (0)10-4569412 ------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:43:03 -0500 Reply-To: cspacek@flash.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Curtis Spacek Subject: Re: Misuse of drug ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit this is probably due to the longer break in the brood cycle in the more northern climates.I agree,it certianly is odd these two areas are on opposite sides of the planet. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:18:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeemanNick Subject: Re: Job's Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Well I was on the Idea of Honey/Pollinator What can one "Likely" make a month? What are prices's for varius crops (Almonds, and others) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:29:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator Subject: Re: "Extra" comb ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/24/98 1:10:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eavogt@myhome.net writes: <> You got bad advice. When you use foundation, always use ten frames. Some beekeepers use nine frames with drawn comb, which I can't recommend in the brood chamber either, but it isn't quite as bad a problem. If you do use nine frames, after the comb is drawn, be careful to space them, or use frame spacers. The outside frame should have a little more space between it and the wall. Ten frames in the brood chamber will save a lot of burr comb, and give the queen one more comb to fill in the spring, before the bees think of swarming. <> YES, unless you want your foundation chewed up. ASAP. Dave, (Dog Tired) in South Carolina Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:22:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Origins of Varroa (was: Misuse of drugs?) In-Reply-To: <980424.103640.EDT.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:25 AM 4/24/98 -0400, you wrote: >Anyway I don't think, no, I'm sure no one really knows. In the meantime Arron, I think you got the part right about...."no one really knows",.... but the Shadow knows, APISTAN! Anyhow from my perspective as one who has lived agriculture all his life it really sounds to me like bee keepers are sounding more like farmers everyday. Once a chemical does not work, or quits working down on the farm the first thing a well educated, well read, well indoctrinated, and well financed farmer does is yell, RESISTANCE, and looks for another better farming through chemistry solution from his local dusty, backed up 1000% by a local farm advisor or the friendly farm agent. I like to called them farm agents myself because so many of them are really agents of the agro-chemical industry that keeps them well supplied with the latest advances in modern chemical warfare and many perks. I accidentally have attended several of their meeting myself,..farm agents/chemical /regulatory agents and farmers, and find it hard to believe that today's entomologists and yesterdays bee keepers were as once as close as two bees in a hive. We sure missed the boat going our separate ways, bee keepers to keeping bees, producing honey, pollinating flowers and entomologists selling chemicals,...at least as far as the perks go. I don't think bee keeper suppliers are good for more then a free drink or two at most bee meetings today and what a farm advisors/pesticide pimp can make off with at one chemical meeting is more then most bee keepers can earn in a year. And beekeepers wonder why when it comes to pesticide problems it is always comes down to a value judgement, the value of the bees vs the value of the crop, or more realistic its always been the value of the farm chemicals sales on that crop. >look for resistent mites coming to a neighborhood near YOU! Why not look for resistant beekeepers? Beekeepers who are resistant or deaf to the call of the chemical sales man or dusty's. Or resistant bees, of course to find a resistant bee one would look at bees that have not been treated with chemicals, according to the promotion I hear there are none of these rare breeds around anymore.. Maybe at the most bees only treated with one of the legal but not registered alternatives, and then I believe for most of us we would not recognize it, resistance, if we saw it anyway as for sure if a law was passed yesterday barring all treatments beekeepers would be treating their bees same as $1.00 for each butt is not going to stop the smoker who thinks he needs just one more drag on that weed. I have not heard from even one bee keeper for about a year complaining about dramatic bee losses from anything but pesticides, or have I heard from anyone reporting a build up of mites that needed extra efforts to control with the exception of what has been reported in the bee journals and having had one of the main participants here for two weeks this spring there is more to the story them what has been made public. It is a hoary story of chemicals, mites, and bee keeper inactive with a satisfactory ending as the bees were saved, even if not repeatable, but has really little to do with resistance of bees or mites to any one chemical. I will say I would not be surprised that if the same tests that are being tauted as showing this so called resistance in the US were re-done on the same bees in the same areas they would come up with different results. This is just my personal opinion as always and was not colored by the long letter of exclamation I and many others received from the Zoecon-man sales department which in effect said no more then "not to worry" we are looking out for your interests and our multi million sweet heart deal with the regulatory industry. (Who me worry, naa I'm just a bee man.) Don't panic and don't use any competitors products as they are illegal even if they work better then ours and we don't send perks to any jail house addresses. Well maybe something was left out of my translation of that letter, but I hope more bee keepers are worrying about putting on supers, and extracting honey then about mites or the misuse of drugs, other then what the kids are buying at school these days. Which is why the farmer's chemicals quit working in the above, not by buying cheep chemicals off the street but because they misused them. Misuse is using any chemicals that does not work by definition, does not matter they just maybe that chemical never did work anyhow. But you know for a fact some farmers around here did not buy that chemical company line of BS (not Bee Science) and after years and years of court battles which I am today not even sure who one, but I am sure that they proved the chemicals sold them did not work. Today they are going more to using less and fewer chemicals. Some are such hard heads that they don't use any, other are harder heads and use all the chemicals anyone will sell them because they don't want anyone telling them what they can do and you know the difference in the crop yields is little different, except the one's who use none or little make more because they have less expense. And in some years they all have pest damage to their crops, and in those years those who use little or no chemicals even do better. ttul, the OLd Drone open soon again at http://beenet.com until then try our new secure server store setup and buy a Bee Wind Sock or the Pooh & Some Bee's book http:/290.7650.54 (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:58:14 +0000 Reply-To: aweinert@tpgi.com.au Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: aweinert MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT search pollen trap plans Andrew Weinert When standing at the edge of a cliff a step back can be said to be a step in the right direction ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 00:12:56 -0400 Reply-To: vcoppola@froggernet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Origins of Varroa (was: Misuse of drugs?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BLANE WHITE wrote: > Work done at the Baton Rouge Lab indicates that the varroa mites in > Europe and the US are similar to the mites in Russia and different > from the varroa in South America and Japan. This would indicate that > our mites here in the US were most likely imported from Europe. Hi all, Heard Dr. DeGuzman at AHPA 2 yrs ago. She has investigated the source of varroa in North America by DNA analysis. She told us that both strains of mites are here. She thought the Japanese type may have come thru Peru, possibly on queens or bees imported from Japan. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:05:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JonDeGroot Subject: Re: Replacing frames of old comb Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Rod Billet was planning to replace 4 nuc originated frames of old comb by gradually displacing them toward the outside >>O - Old Frame >>N - New Frame >> >>N N N O O O O N N N - Current Setup >>N N O O N N O O N N - First 'Shift' >>N O O N N N N O O N - Second 'Shift' >>O O N N N N N N O O - Third 'Shift' I've done that myself last year and lost brood during a cold snap due to 'chilled brood'. I was only spreading the nest by one frame at a time. I suggest an alternative that will take more shifts and more time but will not divide the brood nest and should avoid any risk of chilled brood losses. Try this: NNNOOOONNN NNNNOOOONN NNNNNOOOON NNNNNNOOOO FNNNNNNOOO F = foundation or 'new-new' FFNNNNNNOO FFFNNNNNNO FFFFNNNNNN The bees will gradually cease using the old frame as it moves to wall-side position, and you can remove them. Luck to you whichever method you use. John de Groot ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 06:01:16 -0400 Reply-To: beekeepr@bellsouth.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Not read: honey bound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhEKAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAFwAAAFJFUE9SVC5J UE0uTm90ZS5JUE5OUk4AtwYBDYAEAAIAAAACAAIAAQqAAQAhAAAAOENFMjg1NEFEREQ5RDExMTgy QjEwMDYwMDgwMUNBRkQAKgcBA5AGAJAEAAAiAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAgEx AAEAAAC/AAAAUENERkVCMDkAAQACAEoAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAAbXNwc3QuZGxs AAAAAABOSVRB+b+4AQCqADfZbgAAAEM6XFdJTk5UXG91dGxvb2sucHN0ABgAAAAAAAAAOljCQ7B4 0RGCLwBgCAHK/aKAAAAAAAAAGAAAAAAAAAA6WMJDsHjREYIvAGAIAcr9woAAABAAAACM4oVK3dnR EYKxAGAIAcr9EAAAAFJFOiBob25leSBib3VuZAAAQAAyAOCmUnX6b70BAwA2AAAAAAACAUMAAQAA ADoAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDdAQ9UAgAAAABSdXBlcnQsIFJvZABTTVRQAHJydXBlcnRAYWVj aS5vcmcAAAAeAEQAAQAAAAwAAABSdXBlcnQsIFJvZAAeAEkAAQAAABAAAABSRTogaG9uZXkgYm91 bmQAAgFMAAEAAABuAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAASW5mb3JtZWQgRGlzY3Vzc2lv biBvZiBCZWVrZWVwaW5nIElzc3VlcyBhbmQgQmVlIEJpb2xvZ3kAU01UUABCRUUtTEBDTlNJQk0u QUxCQU5ZLkVEVQAAAB4ATQABAAAAOQAAAEluZm9ybWVkIERpc2N1c3Npb24gb2YgQmVla2VlcGlu ZyBJc3N1ZXMgYW5kIEJlZSBCaW9sb2d5AAAAAEAATgAwfdK9HG69AUAAVQCAmGPpHG69AR4AcAAB AAAAEAAAAFJFOiBob25leSBib3VuZAACAXEAAQAAABsAAAABvW4cvHhKheKN2d0R0YKxAGAIAcr9 AHduNgUAHgByAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AcwABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAHQAAQAAABgAAABCRUUtTEBD TlNJQk0uQUxCQU5ZLkVEVQALAAgMAAAAAAIBHQwBAAAAHAAAAFNNVFA6QkVFS0VFUFJAQkVMTFNP VVRILk5FVAALAAEOAQAAAAsAHw4BAAAAHgABEAEAAAAZAAAATWVzc2FnZSB3YXMgbm90IHJlYWQg Ynk6AAAAAAMABhAAAAAAAwAHEAAAAAAeAAgQAQAAAAYAAAB8OQ4BBAAAAAMAEBCU++cBAwAREOQE AAACAfgPAQAAABAAAABK5nKgdVq9EbDI/vC6LxG1AgH6DwEAAAAQAAAASuZyoHVavRGwyP7wui8R tQIB+w8BAAAAggAAAAAAAAA4obsQBeUQGqG7CAArKlbCAABQU1RQUlguRExMAAAAAAAAAABOSVRB +b+4AQCqADfZbgAAAEM6XFdJTkRPV1NcUHJvZmlsZXNcRnJhbmtcQXBwbGljYXRpb24gRGF0YVxN aWNyb3NvZnRcT3V0bG9va1xvdXRsb29rLnBzdAAAAAMA/g8FAAAAAwANNP03AAACAX8AAQAAADEA AAAwMDAwMDAwMDRBRTY3MkEwNzU1QUJEMTFCMEM4RkVGMEJBMkYxMUI1QzQwNDIxMDAAAAAAihU= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:21:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Bartlett Subject: Re: Origins of Varroa (was: Misuse of drugs?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Andy, Thanks for the fine disertation. How sad it is that the bottom line for so much these days is the dollar ( pound, lire,mark etc.) I believe I saw this here: "One day we will realize that we can't eat money" Some science is good, but we all know stories of bad chemicals (DDT). I still do not like to put something in my hives that it is reccommended that you wear gloves when installing. billy bee ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:19:09 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Beekeeperc Subject: Re: packaging Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Brushy Mountain phone number is: 1-800-BEES WAX Norm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:52:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Advice for new beekeepers As Joel Govostes responded to Elizabeth Vogt s questions concerning the number of frames in a deep, he pointed out that if one has two deeps for brood, nine frames in each does not restrict brood space. Joel is a very knowledgeable beekeeper and, of course, he is correct. However, this exchange again reminds me of the challenges new beekeepers face as they receive different advice, all of which can be and often is correct. All of my brood space is a 1 = story hive, with a deep on top and a 6 5/8 (Illinois, or Western) super underneath. The advantages of this compared to two deeps are considerable and have to do with reduced lifting and overall effort. In fact, in private e-mail not too long ago I listed a few advantages to Joel, and he responded by listing another 5-6 that had not occurred to me at the time. In this set-up, which I mentally had in mind but did not express, I recommended to Elizabeth that she should always have 10 frames in her brood nest. The result of this was that Elizabeth received two quite different suggestions concerning how her brood nest should be established, both of which were correct , but neither of which may fit her needs or local conditions. I wish all new beekeepers had the opportunity to join a club in their area. There are many ways to keep and manage bees, none are foolproof, and many are successful. Often what is most successful depends on local conditions, and even one s personality or preferences. By joining a bee club, one is likely to find a mentor who is successful in the area and can be counted on to take the five minute phone call that can often make the difference between success or failure for an entire season! I maintain an up to date list of bee clubs in the US and will be glad to respond to those who want to give me their geographic area and wish local contacts. This list is also available once a year in Bee Culture. Lloyd LloydSpear@email.msn.com Owner, Ross Rounds the finest in comb honey production. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:08:08 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Advice for new beekeepers In-Reply-To: <0967a3850141948UPIMSSMTPUSR01@email.msn.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > In this set-up, which I mentally had in mind but did not express, I > recommended to Elizabeth that she should always have 10 frames in her > brood nest. FWIW, I ran many hives in Ross Rounds production for many years and used both nine (Stoller spaced) and ten frames (self spaced) in the brood area of single brood chamber hives as standard procedure. I *never* was able to detect *any* difference in brood production, etc. between them. A good queen in peak season will often go to one wall or the other if the combs are good. Moreover, young queens will compete for space against nectar and pollen if there is any storage space in the supers and I can't recall ever seeing one that ran out of space in a single -- either 9 or 10 frame. The quality and uniform spacing of the combs is far more important in determining whether the queen has adequate space. Warped or distorted combs and/or crowding with honey and pollen are common causes of loss of laying space. > I wish all new beekeepers had the opportunity to join a club in their area. I couldn't agree more. Allen -- Buy, sell, trade, get a job, hire help, announce a meeting, advertise a business or publication... For free *beekeeping related* classified ads, visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BeeAds/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:44:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Origins of Varroa (was: Misuse of drugs?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is interesting that chemical companies and scientists are roundly condemned when we have to pay for the treatment of our bees, but let sickness enter our lives and cost is of no concern and the latest science is demanded. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:08:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: tomas mozer Subject: [Fwd: Varroasis, and Parliament] Comments: cc: gwnjbh@alltel.net, rhz@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: tomas mozer To: tomasmozer@juno.com Subject: [Fwd: Varroasis, and Parliament] Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:08:54 -0700 Message-ID: <353F91C6.4A8E@juno.com> From: "Kidney John" Newsgroups: sci.agriculture.beekeeping Subject: Varroasis, and Parliament Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:36:24 +0100 Lines: 46 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-197.dial.nildram.co.uk Message-ID: <353f44ad.0@mercury.nildram.co.uk> Path: Supernews70!Supernews73!supernews.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!194.72.7.126!btnet-peer!btnet!news.freedom2surf.net!peer.news.nildram.co.uk!mercury.nildram.co.uk!pm1-197.dial.nildram.co.uk Xref: Supernews70 sci.agriculture.beekeeping:11054 >From today's (Thur, 24, April, '98) Guardian......... "Old remedies are urged to ease plight of bee" "MPs were yesterday given a bleak picture of a countryside without birds or bees, fruit trees or crops, caused by the devastation of the honey bee from the bloodsucking Varroa mite. The Asda chairman and Tunbridge Wells MP, Archie Norman, the man whose day job it is to save the Tory party, last night warned the Government: Unless we take action now it may well be that we will see partial extinction of the honey bee in the U.K. It is almost literally a question of to bee or not to bee." The junior agriculture Minister, Eliot Morley, promised a #400,000 research project into fungicidal control of the parasite. But Opposition MPs were unimpressed. Mr. Norman said that he had been alerted to the crisis by a constitiuent who had lost more than #25,000 and 165 bee colonies to the Varroa mite. It has already conquered North and South America and most of Europe, and has made rapid inroads in Britain since it was first identified in 1992 in Devon. Domestic honey production has been halved. Only one jar in 10 at supermarkets are home-grown. Mr. Norman attacked the Government's decision last autumn to outlaw traditional practices such as dowsing bees in talcum powder and to licence only one alternative treatment. It would, he said, lead to the devastation of the British beekeeping industry. No bees meant no pollination, no pollination meant no seeds, and no seeds meant no birds. Announcing the research project, Mr. Morley told MPs there was nothing to stop manufacturers from seeking approval for their cures orl beekeepers from asking whether their traditional remedies were still allowed." (Anne Perkins, Political Correspondent) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Eliot Morley is my constituency MP. I write to him occasionally, about divers matters. Any comments on the above, can be e-mailed to bees@geminidotnildramdotcodotuk : I will collate them and send 'en masse' to him. '#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#'#' John jaf@gemini.nildramnilspam.co.uk Sign Charter88. See http://www.charter88.org --------- End forwarded message ---------- _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:53:28 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Thomas W. Culliney" Subject: Re: Out o' cycle In-Reply-To: <01bd6f33$faff6a20$1b3b05d1@k6200.niagara.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, Ian Watson [quoted, then] wrote: > >Sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, Chris, but it is God > >who gets the credit for making bees, not evolution or > >genetic scientists. > > > I really should know better, but I can't resist answering this simplistic > comment. I suppose the world was created in about 6000 years also, > and man co-existed with the dinosaurs, along with other nonsense, > despite the plethora of scientific evidence to the contrary. > > Maybe God believes in evolution too? God created hydrogen. Evolution took it from there. ************************************************************************* Tom Culliney Hawaii Dept. of Agriculture, Division of Plant Industry, 1428 South King St., Honolulu, HI 96814, U.S.A. E-mail: culliney@elele.peacesat.hawaii.edu Telephone: 808-973-9528 FAX: 808-973-9533 "To a rough approximation and setting aside vertebrate chauvinism, it can be said that essentially all organisms are insects."--R.M. May (1988) "Bugs are not going to inherit the earth. They own it now. So we might as well make peace with the landlord."--T. Eisner (1989) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 19:43:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Elizabeth Vogt Subject: Re: Advice for new beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Lloyd, Allen, et al. re: advice for new beekeepers: I just returned from Bee Day at Colton, OR , an all-day series of hands-on workshops for the beeginner, sponsored by the Oregon State Beekeepers Assoc, Ruhl's Bee Supply of Portland, and a private, large-scale commercial beekeeper ... It was great! Many topics were covered, and many hives were available to work with ... I met and talked with a range of bee folks, both "havers" and "keepers" (mostly "keepers" !) and several "old timers". It was a wonderful opportunity to learn. Anyway, exactly what Lloyd and Allen discussed (in their 4/25 email messages re: advice) occurred, i.e., experienced "successful" keepers sometimes gave very different answers/solutions/procedures, etc., to the same question. However, rather than confusing me and other beginners, it actually served to illustrate that AFTER one has some basic experience (a few years ???), and done lots of homework, and kept up as best one can with reliable research, and attended club meetings, and at every opportunity observed and listened to what the bees have to say about it all, that there are indeed (sometimes) a variety of approaches. I am really excited about all of this!! And, as one presenter at the workshop commented, some of the "slowest learners" he knows in beekeeping have a PhD (that would be me) and are actually entomologists (that would be me too!). So, now I'm not feeling quite so silly about my basic questions. And, I think my learning curve significantly shifted today! Thanks to every one for your great input. Sincerely, Elizabeth ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 20:48:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Robert A. Roach" Subject: Grits! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, It is indeed wonderful news that grits will eradicate the imported fire = ant. This could be the answer for the California Department of Food and = Agriculture. They have been trying to eradicate a fire ant infestation = from an almond orchard in Kern County, the ants having been brought into = the state with bee hives. They are using a pesticide on the ants, with = no success so far. Also, the pesticide has no tolerance established for = almonds, so the grower cannot harvest his nuts from the trees were it is = applied to the ground. Since grits are already approved for use in = food, I will recommend to CDFA that they immediately request from the = U.S. EPA an Exemption from Tolerance for grits when used to control = imported fire ants. If this is granted with their characteristic speed, = aerial applications of grits could begin as early as next year. In addition, the University of California may want to begin research on = other elements of Southern cuisine that may be efficacious for the = control of bee pests. I think Mint Julep may show some promise for = control of the Varroa mite. And have you noticed that Africanized honey = bee has failed to penetrate the southeastern tier of states? Could it = be that collard greens, or some other as yet unidentified substance use = in the South is halting their advance? Bob Roach ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 00:42:29 -0500 Reply-To: ktate@geocities.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kathy Tate Subject: Re: Grits! MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Who knows, grits may or may not be the answer...they did little for my fire ants. Here in Texas they have become a major pest around the bee yard. In some cases completely destroying hives! For fire ant control around the bees, you might try a mixture of compost (or cow manure) "tea", liquid molassas, and citrus oil. That seems to at least run them off. Howard Garrett has a good web site for "organic" remedies including the fire ant mixture above. Check out: http://www.whitehawk.com/dirtdoctor If anyone has a better solution that doesn't hurt the bees, let me know! Thanks, Kathy Tate Stephenville, TX ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:26:56 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Walton Subject: Re: Handling Queens In-Reply-To: <"NPlex-HUB-980322112016(31571)*/S=BOGANSRJ/PRMD=apci/ADMD=attmail/C=us/"@MHS> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <"NPlex-HUB-980322112016(31571)*/S=BOGANSRJ/PRMD=apci/ADMD=at tmail/C=us/"@MHS>, Ron Bogansky writes > I >know there is also a queen marking device available that holds the queen >directly on the frame while marking. I intend to give it a try also. Ron, Try the press-in cage (a ring of pins that you put over the queen and press into the surface of the comb). It is so much easier than the method you describe. You can also buy a pen that contains paint suitable for marking queens. I buy mine from Thornes (www.thorne.co.uk) but I am sure that some of your suppliers in the US will sell them too. -- Paul Walton Email : Paul@adrem.demon.co.uk Bedfordshire. England ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:37:56 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Is nectar supplied continuously to blossom? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am curious as to whether trees continually draw moisture to supply nectar to their blossoms until full pollination has occurred or whether there is a pre-set amount according to the seasonal conditions. In this part of Australia Eucalyptus Cosmophylla (Cup Gum) has been flowering for 4 to 6 weeks. The early flowers were dry although the bees visited blossoms for pollen. Two weeks ago season breaking rains occurred and Cup Gum blossoms now brim with nectar. Can anybody shed light on whether trees re-supply their blossoms with nectar daily and whether there is a limitation on the amount of nectar supplied, given that ground water is available to the root system. Is it a case of the more you take, the more you get? Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Spacing for Drones Hi All Elizabeths thread about spacing gave me an idea. I often get a bit of drone comb in the supers, but have noticed how bees well never place two sections of drone comb next to each other in the brood box, but do in my 9 frame supers. So does anybody out there who breeds queens use 9 frame spacing in the brood boxes, say pushing a bit of a gap around the drone frames inserted near the brood nest centre?? Theoretically this would allow for more drone brood production as one could get facing frames both with drone brood?? Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 17:15:44 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Varroacides vs viruses - stones vs computers Greets All As regards the resistance to fluvalinate and so on - we are nearing the end of an era. Adding poisons to beehives will soo probably be considered to be as dangerous as it is - those chemicals are designed/used to denature an aspect of the bugs lifestyle. Bugs are not especially dissimilar from us biologically and some of that effectiveness usually works on humans too. Newer technologies would be worth more investment. It was mentioned a while back that bacillus species (bacteria) have been used to control hive moth. Why not find a similar 'cure' for varroa. In a way, humans have introduced a new species of mite to an existing range of bees. If we die in that range, it is conceivable that bees may also become extinct for a while because we moved bugs around that they cannot control. We therefore have some sort of obligation to fix that. A rather interesting piece of work done recently on tomatoes I think resulted in a toxin used by little spiders to kill red spider mite being cloned directly into the DNA of the tomatoe. Result - leaves expressed the toxin and the mites cannot eat the leaves. They died. Similarily, a virus affecting for instance varroa could be found. In five to ten years it is conceivable that the technology will exist to transfer the genome of a virus killing varroa into a bee, such that at some crucial point in the brood development cycle, the brood will begin synthesizing virus as well. Any varroa present will die. Once that stage is passed, the DNA with the viral information in it will be zipped up and will never be used again (eg the section that codes for enzymes used in synthesis of brood pheremone - this section of DNA would only be accessed during brood stages, so hence the bee would only synthesize virus then). Expense?? Well it would be quite expensive, but then again would we all not rather have the profits of this sort of stuff going to queenbreeders breeding specific modified strains rather than to companies which are a bit out of date?? So, maybe at some point we can stop using stone implements to kill bugs, and join the information age in treating problems - after all DNA is information, and information is power. Keep well GArth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:20:56 -0400 Reply-To: wwfarm@WCTEL.NET Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carolyn Ehle Organization: Wood Widgeon Farm Subject: Grits and better MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I had no luck with grits (my Labradors ate them anyway). Dish detergent does work, however. It was suggested on a local (Augusta GA) radio program and for weeks got glowing testimonials, until the station was informed dish detergent was not EPA registered for this use and they should not discuss it on-air. I've used it for years around catfish ponds as follows: Tools: bottle dish detergent (I use anything clear, no dyes), bucket or hose of water, 3+ foot stick. Method: Put ring of soap around stick (for protection), poke holes as deep as possible throughout the mound. Trickle a tablespoon or two of soap into each hole. Add enough water to bubble soap out of the mound without too much dilution. Poke and prod with the stick, adding soap and water as needed, to get the brood and hopefully the queen. All insects that contact soap die, so right near a hive you may want to flush the surface. A repeat may be necessary in a week or two if you missed queen or brood, but the new hill will start very small. I treat about once a month or so. The treated spot stays empty for months, unless you have a ton of rain, but new mounds spring up occasionally. For huge areas it may be impractical, unless you can get some youngsters who enjoy ant killing. Of course its impractical to spend big bucks on very toxic stuff that still doesn't work! If we could teach the ants to pour formic acid correctly in the hives... I'm a newbee, been sponging up the list avidly, figure in about 30 years I might know something. IMHO we need everyone, scientist, beekeeper, beehaver, etc. I was raised in the tropics. When I was a professional biologist my best sources on the ecology were often illiterate farmers and fisherman. Combine hands-on, seat-of the-pants with good science and an open mind you've got something... at least until the chemical companies come... Carolyn Ehle, Plum Branch, SC Wood Widgeon Farm-- Catfish, fishing, camping, deer processing, pork and sausage, organically grown vegetables, herbs and nutrition counseling, and especially bees! All bee types welcome, prepare to have your brains picked! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:23:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Barricklow, Walt" Subject: old hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently put two new package bee hives in a new location for me, but there is one old hive that is a double deep super hive already there. I opened it up to examine it as the owner requested, and found that one: It is FULL of bees. 2. It has very few open space to lay in. 3. Brood in top and bottom. Full of honey and pollen. The hive looks very industrious. I believe that the hive should be split, but did not have time. I put on a shallow super just to give the bees more room. Problem: I found what looks like larvae in open comb on top of the frames, hanging on the side and bottom, just all over the hive. It looks like small canned shrimps almost no color, but not in combs. There is a small amount of what looks like pollen pieces or crumbs on the bottom board, and at the entrance. It is a brown color, like sand. I don't know what to do. I am due for surgery in 3 days and wonder about this old hive. My 2 new hives look very well and are drawing lots of comb, good brood etc. HELP. What should I do. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:22:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: National Organic Standards Rule (USA) I realize that this subject has been previously discussed. Anyway, in checking out the "Dirt Doctor's" Web Site, I see that there is, imho, a well reasoned dissertation on why the USDA's National Organic Standards Rule is a bad piece of work ( 'not good' for Beekeepers). Check out: http://www.whitehawk.com/dirtdoctor/nosr.html US Citizens have until May 1st this year to 'comment on this proposal. According to the above page, there is a "link' for you to 'comment online'. Al, ...................................................................... <"Mailto: awneedham@juno.com" > Scituate,Massachusetts,USA The Beehive-Educational Honey Bee Site Visit Ye Olde Honey Bee Book Shoppe http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:34:11 -0700 Reply-To: jcbach@yvn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James C Bach Subject: Removing older combs of nuc from the hive, and dividing the colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rod Billett asks how or if he should remove the older combs he received with his purchased nuc from his new hive. No. Concentrate on building the colony up so that it will successfully winter. The older combs can be moved to the side of the brood rearing area after the queen is laying in the second brood nest, or even next year. If all goes well, you can make a divide next year. James C. Bach Yakima WA jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:40:39 -0700 Reply-To: jcbach@yvn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James C Bach Subject: Terramycin being stored? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian Watson states that the terramycin and dextrose appear to be stored in the comb where bees normally store pollen. Unless you analyze the stored material if would be impossible to know if the bees just stored the dextrose, or the TM and dextrose. My guess would be that they stored only the dextrose, a form of sugar, but not the TM. Most of the time bees know what they are doing, and do not store substances that would be hazardous to their health. I have seen bees store the powdered sugar from a TM/pwd. sugar mix, but put the TM on the landing board. I presume, but do not conclude, that this has occurred in your situation. James C. Bach Yakima WA jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 17:20:03 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carlos Aparicio Subject: Re: Is nectar supplied continuously to blossom? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The nectar supply to the flower is constant with independence of the seasonal conditions. Of course an extended drought can reduce the nectar supply, but this is difficult that occur at the very least in the means in which I know, given to the fact that the roots of the eucalyptus are very deep and the droughts in Uruguay do not tend to have so much duration. In the zone where my beehives are located there is a strong predominance of the Tasmanian Blue Gum . This tree blossoms in autumn - winter, and consequently their/its flowerings are usually affected for rains. The people says that the rain "washes the flowers", but the idea is that the tree will follow producing agreed nectar to the needs of the flower and of the pollination. The above oppinion is just an observation, and I no have strong evidence about it. Further evidence will be needed for definitive conclussions. Regards Carlos Aparicio At 08:37 PM 26/04/1998 +0900, j h & e mcadam wrote: >I am curious as to whether trees continually draw moisture to supply nectar >to their blossoms until full pollination has occurred or whether there is a >pre-set amount according to the seasonal conditions. > >In this part of Australia Eucalyptus Cosmophylla (Cup Gum) has been >flowering for 4 to 6 weeks. The early flowers were dry although the bees >visited blossoms for pollen. Two weeks ago season breaking rains occurred >and Cup Gum blossoms now brim with nectar. > >Can anybody shed light on whether trees re-supply their blossoms with nectar >daily and whether there is a limitation on the amount of nectar supplied, >given that ground water is available to the root system. > >Is it a case of the more you take, the more you get? > >Betty McAdam >HOG BAY APIARY >Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island >J.H. & E. McAdamhttp://kigateway.eastend.com.au/hogbay/hogbay1.htm > >Why not visit the South Australian Superb Websites Ring? >http://kw.mtx.net/sawebring/sawebring.html > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 18:23:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: Fw: Bee Venom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01BD7140.6CBFD9C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BD7140.6CBFD9C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings! I received the below message,today. Maybe, some one can help him? Holly-B Apiary P.O.Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee -----Original Message----- From: dea@emirates.net.ae To: midnitebee@cybertours.com Date: Sunday, April 26, 1998 5:45 PM Subject: Bee Venom Dear Sir; I'm trying to locate the email or fax of institutions who need bee = venom, in usa and Europe, as I have a good quantity to sell. I would appreciate any help links or contacts you could supply me with. = or directions on how to go about it. Thanking you, Berestinov, Dimitri ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BD7140.6CBFD9C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greetings!
I=20 received the below message,today.
Maybe, some one can help = him?
Holly-B = Apiary
P.O.Box=20 26
Wells,Maine 04090-0026
http://www.cybertours.com/= ~midnitebee
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 dea@emirates.net.ae = <dea@emirates.net.ae>
To:= midnitebee@cybertours.com = <midnitebee@cybertours.com&g= t;
Date:=20 Sunday, April 26, 1998 5:45 PM
Subject: Bee=20 Venom

Dear Sir;

I'm trying to locate the = email or fax=20 of institutions who need bee venom, in usa and Europe, as I have a good = quantity=20 to sell.

I would appreciate any help links or contacts you could = supply=20 me with. or directions on how to go about it.

Thanking=20 you,

Berestinov, Dimitri ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BD7140.6CBFD9C0-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 18:29:15 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK Subject: Re: Fw: Bee Venom Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Can't read that dark blue background! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 18:20:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Elizabeth Vogt Subject: Two questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know these questions can probably be answered in 2 beekeeping books I have on order. But, if anyone has a moment to comment, please do. Thanks. 1) I keep reading about newly-drawn comb and cappings as being "white" or "light colored". Mine are bright yellow to brown. Is this due to the pollen (substitute) patties each hive has and/or the 1:1 sugar syrup provided? 2) I've learned my lesson, re: the importance of evenly spacing frames (10) when starting a new hive, i.e. using new wax foundation. In 4 of my 5 hives, there is one terribly misshapen frame of drawn comb, some of it not even attached to the frame, and bees walking between the drawn comb and the sheet of foundation. Fortunately, in all hives I have a good queen; I'm seeing lots of of larvae, and some of the other behavioral indicators that the hive is queenright. My question is: do I remove the frames of misshapen comb, make sure the queen is not on them, put in a new frame and foundation, brush the bees back into the hive, and discard the bizarre looking comb ? Sincerely, Elizabeth ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:45:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeemanNick Subject: Re: Two questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/26/98 7:18:56 PM CST, eavogt@myhome.net writes: << 1) I keep reading about newly-drawn comb and cappings as being "white" or "light colored". Mine are bright yellow to brown. Is this due to the pollen (substitute) patties each hive has and/or the 1:1 sugar syrup provided? >> As i have understood the brown part would be in part of "track" marks somthing that happens with time. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:48:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Advice for new beekeepers / frame spacing In-Reply-To: <0967a3850141948UPIMSSMTPUSR01@email.msn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lloyd Spear commented: ... >All of my brood space is a 1 = story hive, with a deep on top and a 6 5/8 >(Illinois, or Western) super underneath. The advantages of this compared to >two deeps are considerable and have to do with reduced lifting and overall >effort. (many thanks for your followup comments, Lloyd) The system he describes does have a number of advantages. Incidentally, this is also how the giant Powers Apiaries operation is managed. Having the deep on top allows one to make up nuclei using standard brood frames; or if you need to pull some brood out as swarm control, it can be compiled in a regular deep brood box thereby creating or strengthening other colonies. You can also pry and tip up the deep chamber to look for swarm cells, etc. All this would not be so easy if the deep were down on the bottom. Another advantage (Walter Kelley mentioned this) is that having a shallow/medium super between the floor and the deep brood box keeps the deep brood combs in better shape, since the bees aren't so apt to chew away the bottom edges. One dis-advantage is that you are messing with two sizes of brood frames. This is not much of a concern, though, and in the normal routine of things, you don't ever have to mess with the shallower combs down in the bottom box. This arrangement, still, provides considerably more space than a single-story hive. More like 1-1/2 or 1-3/4, at least during the height of brood production. There is still lots of excess comb-area beyond what even an exceptional queen would require for laying, even if only 9 frames are used. I should add that with the wider spacing, the faces of the brood combs are not drawn out more, except a little at the top, if there is nectar at the upper corners. They will do this with ten combs some seasons. As far a wintering goes, Chas. Dadant swore up and down that he got BETTER wintering with 1 1/2" on-center comb spacing than with the 1-3/8". That was one of several reasons why the Dadant/Modified Dadant hive was designed with the wider spacing in the brood nest. I'd also contend that the slightly-wider brood spacing can contribute towards more successful wintering. Reason being, there are more bees in contact within the actual cluster, instead of their being more isolated in thin layers between the combs. Temperature regulation would therefore be more efficient, not less. I have not seen winter-kill or partial-divided clusters due to this isolation since going to 9 combs. (No hard data to offer, but bees apparently do very will with this setup.) Granted, uneven or haphazard spacing of 9 brood combs can produce a real mess, and can make hive manipulations a great deal worse, not easier. (again, had I new (or at least newer!) equipment, I'd probably use all 10 brood-frames throughout... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:24:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK Subject: Re: Two questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Elizabeth: You received pretty good replies. !) BROOD cappings are light yellow getting darker daily as the bees tread their DIRTY FEET on them. You will learn through experience about how old the pupa is by the capping color. HONEY cappings tend to be white to light yellow. Two parameters control this: Certain races of bees make water white cappings compared to other races; and this MAY be a consideration of a COMB HONEY PRODUCER; and, repeating, bees have dirty feet, so the longer capped honey is left in the colony, the more yellow the cappings become. As long as I am writing to you again, I will chat with you a tad. Did you know Dr. Orly Taylor at Kansas State? I worked with him on the AHB in South America. If you get THE HIVE AND THE HONEYBEE, accept nothing but the 1992 Revised Edition. Forget 1200 of the 1300 pages and memorize Chapter 8 by Dr. Norm Gary about BEE BEHAVIOR. Understanding bee behavior (thinking like a bee) is the difference between HAVING bees and KEEPING bees. I hope Diana Sammanturo second printing is out. It was due 4/15 with Larry Connor. SUPER beginners book! I almost forgot your second question. GOOD beekeepers try to keep their brood frames CHOICE (like good steak). Bad comb leads to drone brood, no brood, burr comb joining two frames, and killing bees or the queen as you handle them. Hence, even though a loss now, Deep Six that bad comb, and put all frames tight together, leaving any left over space between frame #1 and hive wall and #10 and hive wall. ALWAYS DRAW FOUNDATION WITH 10 FRAMES. If you would prefer to 9 frames, you only do it with DRAWN COMB FRAMES, never foundation. I use 10 frames for brood, and 9 frames for honey; both made from Dadants Plasticell foundation. If that had been invented 65 years ago when I started, I would have been their first buyer. Except for comb honey production, I wouldn't go back to wax foundation if it was free with the frame wiring, distortion, breakage in cold weather, etc, etc. DR. James Bach, Chief apiary inspector up in Yakima, Wash. is not too far from you and knows Oregon. His e mail address is: jbach@agr.wa.gov or jcbach@yvn.com Jim is very sharp, likes to teach and help, and your doctorate in entomology will attract him. Tell him "Old George said get hold of Jim Bach" Your Oregon man, Mike Bergeot is supposed to be at EAS this July; maybe he will come to my queen workshop, and I will mention you to him. Good luck, and LEARN, LEARN! George ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:54:50 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Queens Piping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Well, we had a nice drive this afternoon to meet Morely at a country intersection about 60 miles from here to get our Australian queens. It went down like a drug deal at the side of the road. Had hoped for 100, but settled for 50. Nice queens. Anyhow, when we got them home and were about to give them their Fumidil a la Roy Thurber, we noticed they were piping nicely. So we got out the mic and decided to share the sound with you. Of course they clammed up immediately that they saw the mic, but we did get some recordings. Go to http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/queens.htm to see and hear. Be prepared to wait a (long) while for the sound. It is several megs (my ISP is gonna KILL me :) I'll erase it in a few days. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 22:17:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert E Butcher Subject: speed of a worker bee Hi everybody, Does anyone know how fast a worker bee travels, when it is loaded and goes home and comes back ? I've tried putting a dozen bees in a jar and letting one go at a time, it didn't work for me. I'd like to mark abee and see how long it took for it to come back to get more sugarand to find out where it's home is. Any thoughts are welcome. Thanks for your help keepers of the bees! God Bless You Robert&Teresa Butcher bobbees@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 22:18:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: HENRY BOLANOS <104047.270@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Advice for new beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, You are absolutely correct. We know too much. That's why I always recommend Ed Weiss's Book the" Queen and I",to new beekeepers. It's a simple how to book , that covers the basics with sketches and drawings from assembling the wood to how to harvest. I don't know a beekeeper who follows any rigid rules, but the good ones have a foundation of fundamentals to fall back on. I keep this book around for reference and use it as a refresher from time to time. Regards, Henry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:11:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dr Max Watkins Subject: Re: [Fwd: Misuse of drug ?] Comments: To: vcoppola@froggernet.com Comments: cc: allend@internode.net In-Reply-To: <354162DB.9A5DCC2F@froggernet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Dear Allen, Please excuse my late reply; I've been ex-communicated from Bee- Line for a couple of weeks and am onmly just signing on again. I've inserted some comments into your text below. In message <354162DB.9A5DCC2F@froggernet.com>, Vince Coppola writes >Can you make a response to this post I found on bee-l? > >Allen Dick wrote: >> >> > The *misuse* increase the velocity of the process. >> >> Thanks for the support, and the explanation. >> >> I still think though that it has not been adequately *proven* that misuse >> accelerated the development of resistance. Repetition of a theory by many >> people and publications does not make it any more proven, only more >> popular. And any student of history is well aware of the bizarre things >> people have believed and continue to believe en masse and worldwide. >> >> *Perhaps* misuse did accelerate resistance -- but has this actually been >> proven? Or is it just a guess? (and a convenient guess that lets the >> regulators, researchers and chemical companies off the hook, but blames >> the beekeepers for the inevitable? Granted, unapproved uses did occur, >> but is there *any* real; proof that they were involved in the resistance >> process, or were they just "first at the scene of the crime"? Or "in the >> neighbourhood at the time"? It would be difficult to give absolute proof that varroa resistance to pyrethroids (not just to tau-fluvalinate) originated through misuse; however, I've been involved in this study for some years now, since the rumours of poorer efficacy of "Apistan" began in southern Italy and Sicily and can tell you that the resistance we see today throughout the major part of Italy originated in the south, around 1991. Apistan was not sold or used in the south of Italy but there was widespread use of home-made "Apistan" - ie wooden strips or cloth soaked in indeterminate quantities of Mavrik. This, as you know, is a common practice in many countries but something - be it climate, race of bee, type of mite but most of all chance - something was favourable for a mutation to occur in the varroa mite in southern italy so that it could tolerate higher doses of tau-fluvalinate/pyrethroid than normal susceptible mites. With greater and greater selection pressure put on it (continuous exposure by treating the hives 12 months of the year and at very variable dose rates) a resistant strain of varroa emerged and has been moved around Italy by migratory beekeeping. It has since diffused to some neighbouring countries also. This is very well documented but as to proof, no there is no proof. If you look at the facts 'though and compare the situation to what is also well documented for resistance evolution in many, many other species of mite, it is pretty conclusive evidence that this is how it happened. It's nobody's fault it happened. This is a natural phenomenon, of natural selection. Wherever a strong selection pressure is applied for long enough in the right conditions, mutation/evolution occurs. That's life. In my own opinion, resistance would have occurred anyway, at some point, even if Mavrik [or Klartan as it is sold in some countries] had not been invented. The difference is in the speed of evolution. I think we would would had another 10 to 15 years lead time of continuous use of Apistan alone in every bee hive before resistance became an issue. Apistan is a damn good treatment but it's not the only remedy for varroa and use of alternative products/methods with a completely different mode of action should be practised where at all possible, to reduce the liklihood of resistance emergence. >> >> I've heard it said that it was known from the start by researchers that >> fluvalinate would have a probable maximum useful life as a varroa control >> of around ten years before resistance could be expected to appear if it >> were employed widely. See my comments above. > According to that line of thought, that known fact >> was one reason why Apistan was marketed at such amazingly high prices >> compared to actual material cost. Most beekeepers do not agree that the price of Apistan is amazingly high. Granted you can make a Mavrik strip very cheaply but if you want a reliable product that has been thoroughly tested and registered for the specific use of varroa control in beehives - ie is legal, it costs more than a Mavrik strip. > The convenience and reliability >> features of the product justified the high cost to enough buyers to get a >> quick payback -- and hopefully a profit -- for the manufacturer during >> the projected short product life, but it was known from the start that it >> also would unavoidably encourage alternate home-made formulations to be >> used. It was a trade-off: the best possible under the circumstances. >> >> If the marketer had confidence in the longevity of the product and the >> ultimate long term profit stream and there was a real, rather than stated, >> threat of loss of product effectiveness from alternate fluvalinate use, a >> pricing more competitive with the raw chemical used could have removed >> the incentive to make home treatments. >> >> Whether this is just a convenient interpretation of the facts or actual >> history is pretty well impossible to prove, and I guess -- as in most >> things -- people will choose their preferred explanation amongst the >> equally plausible ones according to personal taste. Personally, I assume >> that chemical companies and their marketing people behave rationally, and >> this explanation fits. >> I can't comment as to what the marketing arm proposed as I was not involved on the commercial side but the product never has been expected to have a short life as you suggest. It was developed with long-term use and sales envisaged. You have to remember that Zoecon as it used to be, was a speciality company developing specific niche products and they developed the product Apistan. Sandoz produced agrochemicals, dyes, seed dressings and pharmaceuticals. Zoecon was constantly in competition with Sandoz as one produced a bee product and the other the agro product, both with the same active ingredient - and beekeepers knew and exploited that. What I'm saying is I don't think your assumptions about the development and marketing of Apistan are correct as Zoecon had very different aims to Sandoz. >> Moreover, it suggests that 1.) either the chemical company could not >> achieve a price sufficiently low to effectively eliminate the incentive to >> make alternate home formulations, or 2.) that they knew such formulations >> were not a real threat and that their commercial product would be dead in >> a bit more than ten years regardless of what anyone did. (The only >> other move on the board would have been to provide an alternate chemical >> treatment and schedule for alternating applications, perhaps even making >> and distributing completely different strips in alternating years -- and >> that was a tall order). >> >> If it were not a difficult enough problem to come up with a product that >> worked, the marketer and the beekeepers were hamstrung by a system >> that makes licencing a product risky and very costly in the name of >> consumer and environmental protection. Moreover, the civil legal system >> in some countries strongly discourages participation in anything but very >> safe or very profitable products, so marketing economical alternate >> treatments, although technically quite feasible was not attractive. >> Bees are very sensitive creatures. Most chemicals, natural or synthetic kill honeybees or else produce unacceptable hive residues before killing the varroa mite. That is another reason why there are so few hive treatments worldwide. >> Anyhow, back to the issue here: it is very interesting that resistance is >> appearing simultaneously and independantly at widely separated locales >> after about ten years of use -- if I've gotten this right. I guess we >> have to ask: is this phenomenon originating only in beehives where >> alternate fluvalinate formulations were used? If so, *when* were they >> used? Were these hives ones that were among the very first to use >> fluvalinate? Is cause and effect actually proven here _or only inferred_? >> Difficult to answer. I doubt there 100% proof. What we found in Europe is that from the shape of the LD50 curves, the resistant strain most probably had just one point of origin; southern italy. Where we've found resistance in the rest of Italy in points of Switzerland, France and Austria the shape of the curve fits exactly the original. Once it has evolved and is stable resitant strains of mite spread as fast as other varroa to other hives, by swarming and migratory beekeeping especially. If a colony has resistant mites, the effect of Apistan will be less than optimal - probably not zero but lower than normal. In the early nineties when we were looking at field efficay vs resistance the control levels within the same apiary could be stagering. In one hive there could be 98% control, in the next 10% in the next 76%, in the next 25%. The difference was therefore as marked between apiaries and regions. How did resistance originate in the US? Who knows? It may indeed be as you suggest that it is solely from Apistan use. But I doubt it. What is clear is that continuous overexposure to pyrethroid will eventually render that chemical class useless as a control agent for that target species. You will get resistance. Apistan should be used only as is stated on the label. Do not leave it in the colony for 12 months. Over winetr is bad enough but sometimes unavoidable. At least there's little mite reproduction going on during this period so the chances of mutation are lower than when it starts warming up. {It's still not recommended}. >> I lack the detailed information to make a conclusion. Maybe the facts >> have been independantly researched and are known. Maybe a scientific >> study of the ocurrance has been made, reviewed, and published. If so, >> then I'd like to know about it. If not, I presume it is like many news >> stories: inadequately researched., sensational, lacking depth, and >> serving an agenda. >> No there's lots of data, at least outside the USA. >> I think that it is far from properly established that the resistance is >> due to unapproved use, or 'abuse' as some like to term it. But maybe I am >> just short on facts. If so, please fill me in. >> I'd like to know too. >> Allen> The *misuse* increase the velocity of the process. > >Thanks for the support, and the explanation. > >I still think though that it has not been adequately *proven* that misuse >accelerated the development of resistance. Repetition of a theory by many >people and publications does not make it any more proven, only more >popular. And any student of history is well aware of the bizarre things >people have believed and continue to believe en masse and worldwide. > >*Perhaps* misuse did accelerate resistance -- but has this actually been >proven? Or is it just a guess? (and a convenient guess that lets the >regulators, researchers and chemical companies off the hook, but blames >the beekeepers for the inevitable? Granted, unapproved uses did occur, >but is there *any* real; proof that they were involved in the resistance >process, or were they just "first at the scene of the crime"? Or "in the >neighbourhood at the time"? > >I've heard it said that it was known from the start by researchers that >fluvalinate would have a probable maximum useful life as a varroa control >of around ten years before resistance could be expected to appear if it >were employed widely. According to that line of thought, that known fact >was one reason why Apistan was marketed at such amazingly high prices >compared to actual material cost. The convenience and reliability >features of the product justified the high cost to enough buyers to get a >quick payback -- and hopefully a profit -- for the manufacturer during >the projected short product life, but it was known from the start that it >also would unavoidably encourage alternate home-made formulations to be >used. It was a trade-off: the best possible under the circumstances. > >If the marketer had confidence in the longevity of the product and the >ultimate long term profit stream and there was a real, rather than stated, > threat of loss of product effectiveness from alternate fluvalinate use, a >pricing more competitive with the raw chemical used could have removed >the incentive to make home treatments. > >Whether this is just a convenient interpretation of the facts or actual >history is pretty well impossible to prove, and I guess -- as in most >things -- people will choose their preferred explanation amongst the >equally plausible ones according to personal taste. Personally, I assume >that chemical companies and their marketing people behave rationally, and >this explanation fits. > >Moreover, it suggests that 1.) either the chemical company could not >achieve a price sufficiently low to effectively eliminate the incentive to >make alternate home formulations, or 2.) that they knew such formulations >were not a real threat and that their commercial product would be dead in >a bit more than ten years regardless of what anyone did. (The only >other move on the board would have been to provide an alternate chemical >treatment and schedule for alternating applications, perhaps even making >and distributing completely different strips in alternating years -- and >that was a tall order). > >If it were not a difficult enough problem to come up with a product that >worked, the marketer and the beekeepers were hamstrung by a system >that makes licencing a product risky and very costly in the name of >consumer and environmental protection. Moreover, the civil legal system >in some countries strongly discourages participation in anything but very >safe or very profitable products, so marketing economical alternate >treatments, although technically quite feasible was not attractive. > >Anyhow, back to the issue here: it is very interesting that resistance is >appearing simultaneously and independantly at widely separated locales >after about ten years of use -- if I've gotten this right. I guess we >have to ask: is this phenomenon originating only in beehives where >alternate fluvalinate formulations were used? If so, *when* were they >used? Were these hives ones that were among the very first to use >fluvalinate? Is cause and effect actually proven here _or only inferred_? > >I lack the detailed information to make a conclusion. Maybe the facts >have been independantly researched and are known. Maybe a scientific >study of the ocurrance has been made, reviewed, and published. If so, >then I'd like to know about it. If not, I presume it is like many news >stories: inadequately researched., sensational, lacking depth, and >serving an agenda. > >I think that it is far from properly established that the resistance is >due to unapproved use, or 'abuse' as some like to term it. But maybe I am >just short on facts. If so, please fill me in. > >Allen > > -- Dr Max Watkins ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:44:30 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Two Things. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT First: I cut the sound file on the queens piping down to 107 K, so it won't take long to d/l. The quality seems still okay, but it is no longer CD quality. Andy mentioned he did not get any sound, so I put a button to push if necessary. Anyone who cannot get a peep can email me and I'll mail the .wav file when I have time. Second: Glad to have the thoughtful response from Max. (Thanks). Hope to find time to respond a bit to it shortly, but we are on the upswing of the craZY bee season now, and it is also tax time (ugh). Allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:07:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Bogansky Subject: Marked Purchased Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Every time I buy queens that are marked, they come with the color appropriate for the given year. A friend purchased queens last week. Two arrived dead and he still had them. They were marked yellow. That was last year's color. My daughter also told me that the queens in the colonies they started at school had blue markings. I thought this years color was red. Do queen breeders not use the color/year code system regularly? All the queens I purchased in the past were marked correctly. Just wondering. Ron Bogansky ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:30:00 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Graham Read EOS Subject: I still find Q cells 2 weeks ago I found sealed Q cells. Feeling prepared, I did an artifical swarm immediately: Moved old hive to one side. Took out Q with 2 brood frames and put in new hive on old site. Left 2 Q cells in old hive. 4 days later moved old hive to other side of new hive. Today I look in the new hive (old queen) - most bees are all clustering (3/4 bees deep) on the two frames of brood. After a lot of looking I saw the old queen and a few eggs, larvae, and also ome more Q cells, some empty and one with a young larvae in ! Why ? I thought that doing this procedure would 'fool' the old queen and her mainly older bees that they had already swarmed. Any ideas ? Is this Queen failing perhaps ? Graham ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:08:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: MArked Purchased Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Ron Boganski queried about the colors used to mark queens. Although there is a standard, "What? You Raise Green Bees!", or "When You Requeen Get the Best" (White, Yellow, Red, Green, Blue) you must remember that standards are not rules or laws, they are just suggestions. Many producers use whatever color they have on hand. The queens I purchased this year were marked white. I doubt they were two years old. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:03:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Queens Piping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Allen, for that recording. I heard my queens doing that also when I first got them, and wasn't sure if that was "piping", but now I know. It was funny listening to them. Does it mean anything when the queens pipe, or is it just something they do? Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 12 colonies ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:11:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Piping Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Queens pipe as a challenge to other queens in the same hive. Piping can start before queens emerge from their queen cells! It's a way to let their presence known to other potential rivals. Aaron Morris - thinking I'd keep quiet rather than piping in! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:44:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator Subject: Re: I still find Q cells Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/27/98 9:29:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamr@eos.co.uk writes: << Today I look in the new hive (old queen) - most bees are all clustering (3/4 bees deep) on the two frames of brood. After a lot of looking I saw the old queen and a few eggs, larvae, and also ome more Q cells, some empty and one with a young larvae in ! Why ? I thought that doing this procedure would 'fool' the old queen and her mainly older bees that they had already swarmed. Any ideas ? Is this Queen failing perhaps ? >> It is possible that the queen is failing, and you mistook supercedure cells for swarm cells. Swarm cells are usually near or on the bottom of the frame, and there may be 10-20 of them. Supercedure cells usually are nearer the center (because they are drawn out from an ordinary cell, just like an emergency cell) and there are not usually many, sometimes only one. The other possibility is simply that they think they have already swarmed and they are now superceding the queen. Most swarms, once established, will replace the old queen that went with them. If they were truly swarmy, you did the right thing. Many hobbyists will cut out cells, thinking this will stop swarming. Tearing the hive apart every few days to find the cells demoralizes the hive, and, sooner or later, the beekeeper will miss one cell, usually a small one that makes a lousy queen. Once you've got a young queen established in either hive, you can recombine them, if you don't want the extra hive. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:52:45 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Queens Piping In-Reply-To: <01bd71ed$9341e900$b93a05d1@k6200.niagara.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Does it mean anything when the queens pipe, or is it just something they > do? AFAIK, no one really knows. Some say they are calling each other to duel it out to the death. Only some of the queens were doing it when we did the recording. As I moved the mic around obver the cages, some were buzzing, others were not. Some are piping, others are silent. I'll do a better recording if they get going again and I am around. Of course they are being put into new homes as fast as we find places for them, but we will have another chance another time. Anyone know if queens being raised in California yet? I had heard they got off to a terrible start. Allen --- FAQs? There is no BEE-L FAQ - as such - but you can search for answers to most common questions by visiting http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/beel.htm or send email to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU and say Search BEE-L KEYWORD(S) ('KEYWORD(S)' means a word or words unique to your question) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:53:53 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: MArked Purchased Queens In-Reply-To: <980427.101223.EDT.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > remember that standards are not rules or laws, they are just suggestions. > Many producers use whatever color they have on hand. The queens I > purchased this year were marked white. I doubt they were two years old. Some breeders use them to distinguish between queen mothers. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:31:46 +0100 Reply-To: pungere@ibm.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Phoebe Ungerer Subject: Help! How to Bleach Bee's Wax! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would be extremely greatful if somebody could either tell me how to bleach bee's wax or direct me to any books/info. regarding this subject. People I have asked seem to be very secretive and elusive regarding this query. Thousands of blessings upon the person who helps me! I thank any of you in advance who choose to answer my query. Sincerely, Phoebe Ungerer Brighid's Hearth Candles pungere@ibm.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:34:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Gerald L Barbor" Subject: Re: speed of a worker bee/queen color No documentation, but I just heard on TV from a fellow who did a bee beard on the Carson show a number of years ago that a worker bee travels at 17 MPH. He clains he can outrun one with the proper incentive. In response to Ron's question about queen colors, having ordered from a number of breeders, I have NEVER gotten a marked queen that corresponded to to "standard" colors. I now mark my own primarily to identify supercedure. Jerry _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:03:13 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Extender patties MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On thing I did fail to mention at the time the talk of AFB resistance started was the simple fact that we placed the patty on the centre of the top bars of the upper brood chamber when we wrapped. The bees were on the bottom board and not in the top box at all. The assumption was that the bees would not actually come into contact with the drug until February or March when they would have eaten their way up through the hive to the lid and need medicating. Getting out to medicate that early in the spring is difficult and disruptive and we are always concerned about the possibility of breakdown if we don't, although actual occurances have been infrequent. From Feb/March on, the bees are only in contact with the patties until a second patty is cleaned up in May or June. We *may* repeat treatment in the Fall, but did not last year, and found zero breakdown. So, as far as I can see, our patty treatment regimen only exposes the bees to oxytet for four or five months, and this is a much shorter time than many use dusting. Moreover, we have had such good control that we have suspended using oxytet in syrup or dust, so total doses will be greatly reduced. Don't get me wrong: I am not agreeing that there is a greater likelihood of resistance occuring when grease patties are used than other methods are employed. In fact I stongly doubt it and am not at all convinced by arguments that try to suggest it, but -- FWIW -- I am using less oxytet and over less time than ever before. Allen -- Buy, sell, trade, get a job, hire help, announce a meeting, advertise a business or publication... For free *beekeeping related* classified ads, visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BeeAds/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:31:30 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Queen piping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re Allens' comments re the queens piping. Are you sure it is queens? = I know that there is a lot of talk about queen piping but I will let you know = what I have found. We hear this piping in the cages of queens and escorts when we have them= in the house prior to shipping. However, in the field I have been catching queens from nucs and held a frame of bees in my hand and heard the same = piping sound. I thought, good, the queen is on this frame as she is piping. = After looking and looking and thinking I had better go and see the eye man, = I put that frame aside and pulled another frame from the hive. There was the = queen. As she had been in the hive whilst I was looking at the frame, what bee= made the piping sound on the frame I was first looking at? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:05:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Elroy Rogers Subject: Re: raising queens in california MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: Allen Dick wrote: > Anyone know if queens being raised in California yet? I had heard they > got off to a terrible start. The el nino must of messed things up in California as far as bees go. Other beekeepers and myself have been waiting for our bees to return from the orange groves. They are usually finished with the bees by the 10th of April, we got them too early last year because of the cold spring here. This year the apple trees in my back yard are getting ready to bloom, and I found a few dandelions. I have been told that the bees won't be shipped until may 2nd. The beekeeper that I sent my bees with has been trying to get 200 packages installed in the orange groves for the past 3 weeks, but the date keeps getting pushed back. He is getting really worried about it now because he says the bees will be too jumpy to ship right after installation. I had ordered 35 queens from Glen apiaries, they will probably get here a couple days ahead of my bees. I been finding all different ways to treat bee fever in the beekeeper though, that is paint, and repair everything in sight. So much for getting an early start on some queen rearing. Maybe Andy can fill us in on California. Elroy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:48:32 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Queen piping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > As she had been in the hive whilst I was looking at the frame, what bee > made the piping sound on the frame I was first looking at? Well, I guess I failed as a doubter. Usually I try to doubt everything, but this one got by me. Actually as we were putting the mic on different cages and listening to the different sounds, I did wonder exactly what bees were making what sounds, but didn't get past wondering. My eyes aren't what they used to be and it seems the bees are getting harder to see all the time. I'd love to have someone prove that it is not the queen at all. Adrian? Allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:58:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Speed of a worker bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robert E. Butcher (bobbees@juno.com) asked: >Does anyone know how fast a worker bee travels, when it is >loaded and goes home and comes back ? I've tried putting a dozen bees in >a jar and letting one go at a time, it didn't work for me. I'd like to >mark a bee and see how long it took for it to come back to get more >sugar and to find out where its home is. Any thoughts are welcome. Thanks >for your help keepers of the bees! Consult the following reference: 1963 Wenner, A.M. The flight speed of honey bees: A quantitative approach. J. Apic. Res. 2:25-32. If you can get access to it, I can mail you a copy --- if you provide a mailing address. That study appears to be the most comprehensive available. In general, an unloaded forager flying out from the hive on its beeline travels about 7.5m per second, a speed altered only slightly by wind. By contrast, a loaded bee on its beeline back to the colony travels about 6.5m per second. To learn about the ancient art of "Beelining," you can consult the following up-to-date review: 1992 Wenner, A.M., J.E. Alcock, and D.E. Meade. Efficient hunting of feral colonies. Bee Science 2:64-70. In short, if you have bees visiting a dish of sugar solution and have some marked individually, watch for the direction of the beeline toward the home colony. Then time the COMPLETE round trip time. Multiply that time by 150 and subtract 500, and you will know the distance to the colony in meters (or yards). However, you need to measure several round trip times and take the 3rd or 4th shortest time for your calculations (sometimes bees go away and return before filling up completely). Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 893-2838 (UCSB office) Ecol., Evol., & Marine Biology (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Univ. of Calif., Santa Barbara (805) 963-8508 (home office & FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 *********************************************************************** * "...scientists are paradoxically resistant to change, even when * * confronted with evidence that virtually demands change of them." * * * * Barber, 1960 (in Greenberg, 1983) * *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:58:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Queens Piping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Allen Dick wrote: >Well, we had a nice drive this afternoon to meet Morely at a country >intersection about 60 miles from here to get our Australian queens. It >went down like a drug deal -- at the side of the road. Had hoped for 100, >but settled for 50. Nice queens. > >Anyhow, when we got them home and were about to give them their Fumidil >a la Roy Thurber, we noticed they were piping nicely. So we got out the >mic and decided to share the sound with you. Of course they clammed up >immediately that they saw the mic, but we did get some recordings. Actually, I believe I was the first ever to analyze those sounds (piping and quacking) by means of audiospectroscopy. After doing so, I generated equivalent sounds with a signal generator and telegraph key and got the queens to respond to the artificial sound --- later reporting the results in the following paper and later in the April, 1964 issue of SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN. 1962 Wenner, A.M. Communication with queen honey bees by substrate sound. Science. 138:446-447. 1964 Wenner, A.M. Sound communication in honey bees. Sci. Amer. 210:116-124. I hasten to add, though (as most of you know), that I no longer subscribe to the part in that article about the significance of waggle dancing, the sounds of which I similarly analyzed for my doctoral dissertation in the 1950s. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 893-2838 (UCSB office) Ecol., Evol., & Marine Biology (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Univ. of Calif., Santa Barbara (805) 963-8508 (home office & FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 *********************************************************************** * "...scientists are paradoxically resistant to change, even when * * confronted with evidence that virtually demands change of them." * * * * Barber, 1960 (in Greenberg, 1983) * *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:41:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator Subject: Re: Help! How to Bleach Bee's Wax! Comments: To: pungere@ibm.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/27/98 12:59:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pungere@ibm.net writes: << I would be extremely greatful if somebody could either tell me how to bleach bee's wax or direct me to any books/info. regarding this subject. People I have asked seem to be very secretive and elusive regarding this query. >> The most effective bleach is sunlight. If you run the wax through a solar wax melter, it will be bleached considerably. We have some candles near a window, that have lightened quite a bit, as well. I like the mellow yellow of cappings wax, so am not interested to bleach cappings wax myself. Dark wax from old combs can be lightened quite a bit, but never will quite get white. A second way to bleach wax is with hydrogen peroxide. Heat the wax (in a double boiler, or water jacketed container) along with water, a little vinegar (to take the calcium from the water) and hydrogen peroxide. This is not quite as effective as sunlight. Another thing that lightens wax, though not really a bleaching, is to remove impurities, which tend to be dark. If you pour the water, wax, vinegar, (and peroxide if desired) mix into a tall narrow, mold that tapers outward at the top, the water will go to the bottom; the wax will float, and the impurities will be mostly along the bottom of the wax. After it solidifies, remove from the mold and shave off the bottom layer with the impurities. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:41:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEEKPER Subject: Re: speed of a worker bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I live in Arizona where we have the Africanized honey bees (so called killer bees). I have been told that most people can out run an out of control Arican colinie and that the bees fly at about 15 miles per hour. I don't know how true this is but the iformation comes from one of the Sciencest and friend at the Carl Hayden Bee Research center. You could try to call and ask there Phone number is (520)-670-6380 or E-mail them at (medley@tucson.ars.ag.gov). This E- mail address is to Diana she is a secretary there and has alway been a great help she can get you hooked up with the right person. Good luck Rodney Mehring ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:53:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Help! How to Bleach Bee's Wax! Comments: To: pungere@ibm.net In-Reply-To: <35445E90.1FA3@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:31 AM 4/27/98 +0100, you wrote: >I would be extremely greatful if somebody could either tell me how to >bleach bee's wax or direct me to any books/info. regarding this >subject. Hi Phoebe & any other phobic bee keepers who read this. H.H. Root "beeswax" out of print but best reference if you can find a copy. I loaned my copy to a beekeeper now retired and living in Hawaii, maybe he will read this and send it back. >People I have asked seem to be very secretive and elusive >regarding this query. No wonder, first really need to know how much you are working with before I can give an intelligent answer? For the average person that wants beeswax for home use and crafts there is no better bleaching process then to put the beeswax out in the sun to bleach it. It will take several days or weeks but it will bleach to a nice white and can be re-formed and will maintain that color. You must start with clean beeswax with NO honey. This works with large or small blocks of wax, smaller sun bleaches faster. (This is not a melting process but uses the magic in the sun that causes skin cancer to do the job on the beeswax.) Now if you are working with tons and tons of wax the solar system used to work but today each wax company has a different process depending on the area the beeswax is from and what they want to do with it. Some have different process for different end users. These systems are protected from us and each other for good reason but they mostly require working knowledge of dangerous chemicals and high carbon filtration. At one time there were solvent re processors that could recover beeswax from slum gum that was normally wasted but again I have not heard if any of these are still around. BTW. At one time I received a unknown chemical to test from a research chemist at one of the large oil refiners who were the largest refiners of petrol wax. This was a "black soap" that was added to the water used in the on the bee farm beeswax rendering process. (boiling water and large pressed blocks of wax and maybe 15% honey, from beeswax honey comb capping pressed at 100 tons psi but honey was still taped in the pressed blocks.) The rest of the story........The stuff worked, it was almost to good to be true...BUT it never reached the bee farm market for several reasons, to small a market, ($) to fractured, (to many beekeepers), and the cost of research to determine if any negative effects such as chemical residues and the like would be a problem. And last of all beekeepers did and should not want to do this kind of added value work on the farm as they do not sell to the end or big retail consumers nor do they know their needs and wants as the big wax importers do. To top it off the price spread between light colored and dark wax gives no great advantage to those with the light wax. >Thousands of blessings upon the person who helps me! I could use that for sure, 1000 x 1000 would be helpful. ttul, the OLd Drone "A cult is a religion with no political power." -- Wolfe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:27:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Andy Nachbaur (by way of Andy Nachbaur )" Subject: [Fwd: Apistan and Cancer] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" *fyi* Interesting post from the beekeeping news group.****** Path: zinger.callamer.com!news1.crl.com!nntp2.crl.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.e crc.net!195.40.0.160.MISMATCH!easynet-tele!pavilion!not-for-mail From: snewport@pavilion.co.uk (Steve Newport) Newsgroups: sci.agriculture.beekeeping Subject: Apistan and Cancer Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 07:26:23 GMT Organization: Pavilion Internet's Customer USENET Server. Message-ID: <35418bfc.2374361@news.pavilion.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup2-34.pavilion.co.uk X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Xref: zinger.callamer.com sci.agriculture.beekeeping:10059 I have read a lot about Apistan on this newsgroup and attended my first bee keeping meeting (Sussex, United Kingdom,) last Sunday. When I asked about people views on the use of Apistan vs the use of mineral oil people first reaction was mineral oil ??? Once over this they had a more serious reaction to the Question of Apistan. Apparently it is illegal in the U.K ??? As it is believed to be a cancer causing drug ?? They have recommended the use of Bavyrol. As an interesting aside they also seem to be saying that there are no signs of the mite so far this spring. Anybody else have the same observation ? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:11:23 -0700 Reply-To: jcbach@yvn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James C Bach Subject: Queen piping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have observed many queens piping. They stand still on the comb face, flatten their thorax and abdomen against the comb, extend their head and mouth parts forward, and appear to pump their abdomen to make the noise (actually much like a cow or lion bellowing). When finished they stand up again and move on. They may stop several times exhibiting the same behavior. I've never seen or known workers to pipe but have found it takes some practice to tune one's ears to determine the exact location of the piping, I think because the sound is so piercing the ear doesn't easily discriminate the distance to the source. I can now usually go to the one or two frames in the immediate vicinity of the virgin queen. James C. Bach Yakima WA jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:40:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rod Billett Subject: Smoker Fuel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Once again, another new-bee question. My friend who introduced me to this fascinating hobby has always used rolled up cardboard for his smoker fuel, and one to not mess with success (and convienience), I have started using it in my smoker. Recently, during a conversation, it was mentioned that many producers are treating the cardboard with chemicals (Glue for bonding, Water resistance, reduce deterioration, etc). My question, Has anyone seen detrimental consequences in relation to using cardboard as smoker fuel? Many Thanks Rod Billett Columbia, SC, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:02:35 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mason Harris Organization: SMCOE Subject: Laying workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bee folks! Well, I first did a search in the archives under "laying workers" and got back about a 4" stack of print out with hardly any of it pertaining to laying workers. So I am asking those of you who have had experience with this problem to please help me out. I captured a swarm and I guess something happened to the queen. I had it in a deep box for about 3 weeks and I started to see signs of laying workers, ie. mutiple eggs in one cell, eggs on the sides of cells etc. I opened the hive the other day and found about 7 frames of bullet drone brood. Nothing else, just drone brood. I had tried to requeen this hive 2 times and I still have had no luck. Could some of you who know how to correct this condition please write me and give me some ideas?? I understand that shaking the frames 30' away from the hive does not work. I could combine the hive or just "off" the bad boys and try again next year. I would really like to know if there is a way to get this hive back on track with out using any of those options. Please e-mail me personally as not to bore the rest of the old timers or, if you have some real profound words of wisdom, post to the list. Thanks -- Mason Harris, MA (\ SMCOE Educational Audiologist -{ ||| 8- smharris@ed.co.sanmateo.ca.us (/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:25:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Smoker Fuel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All Rod Billett put a question on this subject. I spoke to experienced beekeepers about Smoker Fuel and they advised me to get a supply of hessian(old sacking) if possible. This is difficult to get, but I did manage to get a supply, and find it just great. I roll up the sacking into a cylinder until it just fits into the smoker box with a little space all around. To light it, I just hold a cigarette lighter to the bottom of the roll - it lights very quickly, and then slowly push the roll into the smoker box, giving the bellows short quick pushes. I recently came across an idea of sprinkling a few grains of propolis into the smoker fuel - this is supposed to have a soporific effect on the bees. I have tried this once so far, so I cannot say I have put it to a fair test. At least it did not make them any angrier!. Any comments on this.? It strikes me that cardboard could be highly suspect because of the additives that Rod mentions. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 'The Beeman from Ireland' ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:34:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rod, I started with cardboard. It does gunk up the interior of the smoker so there are things in it that may not be too good for the bees. I shifted to pine needles when I noticed that it was the fuel that continually won our State Picnic smoker contest. I won the next year with pine needles. Interesting, but the only other fuel that won was from a nuclear power plant. He would not tell us what it was. Cardboard burns hot compared to pine needles. Plus I heard the same things about glues and other treatments causing problems so it was not too hard to shift- even though I saw no problems with my bees. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME Rod Billett wrote: > Recently, during a conversation, it was mentioned that many producers are > treating the cardboard with chemicals (Glue for bonding, Water resistance, > reduce deterioration, etc). > > My question, Has anyone seen detrimental consequences in relation to using > cardboard as smoker fuel? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:23:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have found the chipped cedar and/or pine ,which is used for hamster and other small pets bedding, to be great for smoker fuel. I start the fire with bits of egg cartons, and then the wood chips and then some grass on top to stop the chips from falling out of the smoker. Also, it is relatively cheap. Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 12 colonies ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:44:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel When I first started beekeeping and asked a more experienced beekeeper what I should use as smoker fuel, he said, "Whatever you want to smell like." Since you will smell like the smoke of whatever you burn, then it's nice to have something that's the least offensive. Pine needles fit into that category for me, so I started with pine needles and am still using them. Layne Westover College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:16:30 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Laying workers In-Reply-To: <3545A935.5FC0@ed.co.sanmateo.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Could some of you who know how to correct this condition > please write me and give me some ideas?? I understand that shaking the > frames 30' away from the hive does not work. I could combine the hive or > just "off" the bad boys and try again next year. I would really like to > know if there is a way to get this hive back on track with out using any > of those options. Please e-mail me personally as not to bore the rest of > the old timers or, if you have some real profound words of wisdom, post > to the list. Actually this is a good and one that has not been beaten to death. And you started out the right way: your beginning with a search is appreciated. The deluge of unusable material you received is unfortunate. Your dilemma illustrates perfectly why moderation has been instituted. Hopefully all future logs will contain less garbage in the form of HTML posts, huge sigs, excess quotes, binaries, etc. And, who knows, maybe we will get to work and clean up some of the old logs. Volunteers? Anyhow. The most foolproof method to deal with laying workers is to combine the colony with a good one, and split again in several days or weeks -- after they have integrated. This is a good strategy from three viewpoints: 1.) It eliminates the laying workers. 2.) It puts any bees that are not too old to be useful to work. 3.) When you make the split, it will start off with balanced ages and also some brood from a good colony. By the time laying workers appear, a colony is generally past saving. This method salvages any remaining value in it. Allen --- BEE-L can be searched for items in a particular date range. The following message (To the LISTSERVER-not BEE-L) retrieves only the messages since January 1997. SEARCH formic acid IN bee-l SINCE Jan 1997 The capitals indicate commands which the LISTSERVER responds to and the small letters indicate the things that you specify. (Courtesy Don Aitken) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:17:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Robert J. Cessac" Subject: Apiary Layout MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can someone tell what is the best distance beehives should be spaced in an apiary? I plan to have 24 hives. Should they be all in a straight line, two 12 hive lines or four 6 hive lines? How far apart when in line and how far apart between lines? I realize the terrain will dictate part of this, but what is best for the bees and their flight patterns. I have 10 at the present time on southeast facing slope next to a small pond and a grove of trees. In other words, what is most efficient for the bees and what is most efficient for the beekeeper? Thanks -- Robert Cessac K-B Ranch Natural Beef & Honey 2362 St. Rt. O Higbee, MO 65257 rcessac@mail.coin.missouri.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:36:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: ZOECON gives it to Beekeepers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" All this bad press and talk about Apistan and how it is failing to control V. mites has prompted Zoecon the infamous to offer a new program for beekeepers announced to a selected few with a slick post card from their advertising agency. (GOD protect us all from those with such talents wasted on projects like this when they could be out doing good works like promoting HONEY instead of feeding off its good will and that of people who keep bees.) Following in the shadow of General Mills "Save the Bees" rip off box top offer comes the Apistan "Hive To Honey with Apistan" and ZOECON's big big bigger cash rebate program of $ 00.05 cash.Yep the big five, five cents a strip but only to those who buy a minimum 600 strips or more, limited to one person, who buys the 600 or more strips on the same day. WOW a big $30.00 discount paid for by all those who don't buy 600 or more strips at one time every day. Here's your friendly dusty company who's selling you all a product that may not work but costing you $5.00 or more per hive per year and they are going to give a big nickle of that to some big bad commercial beekeeper who more then likely is the reason you have varroa mites in the first place and you should bee happy in your work. What a deal, we all should feel a lot better now that our bees are living better through chemistry and reserve a special place for ZOECON and all dusty chemical sales man or woman in the next life. At the same time we should be trying alternatives as if nothing else by their use we are monitoring our hives better to see if they work and sending a message to those who would regulate us and their chemical company partners. Give us a break ZOECON, WELMARK International or what ever you call yourselves today. Some of us know a little about the cost of things and you have lived up to your name, WELLMARK and we bee keepers have been the "mark". Maybe a 20% or 30% reduction in price across the board would better match the reduction in efficacy of your product. ttul, the OLd Drone Final Solution to V. mites @ http://beenet.com/mites/killem.htm (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:28:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel In-Reply-To: <35463D64.F5215A53@clinic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have been using burlap potato sacks for the last few years. They seem to last a long time and give a fairly cool smoke. You cut them into strips about a foot wide , fold into three and roll them up into a bundle that fits into your smoker. I get them from the local potato growers co-op for about $.25 each. Previously, I used planer shavings with good success. The sacks are less messy, burn longer, and produce less waste. After use, I dump the remaining burlap into a (clean) paint can and put on the lid. The remnants can be used to start the smoker next time. Donald Aitken 11710-129 Street Edmonton Alberta Canada T5M 0Y7 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:48:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Beekeeperc Subject: Re: Smoker Fuel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I've read somwhere that potato sacks are treated with a pesticide for some sort of bug. I would ask the farmer if his sacks are treated. Norm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:55:22 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Moriarty Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 26 Apr 1998 to 27 Apr 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Does anyone out there have a recording of the sound a queenless hive makes? Just thought to ask as I thought it would be useful for beginners... Aloha, mike moriarty