From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Feb 13 07:12:55 2000 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA08301 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:12:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02298 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:12:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200002131212.HAA02298@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:12:53 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9909D" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Status: RO Content-Length: 160995 Lines: 3275 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:16:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Anti-Varroa Bottom Board MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There area at least a half dozen entries in thr bee-l archives worth taking a look at on the subject of wire mesh bottom boards. Your query prompted me to review them. It's the beginnings of a good discussion on the subject. John ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:23:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: The Take Home Message from Apimondia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's been a few days now and things have had a little time to settle. I'm still at a loss to conclude what I learned at Apimondia. The field trip was worth the buss ride just to see Babe's pallet arrangement for beehives outside the Plant health facility on Vancouver Island. I had read of it before, but never seen it. I consider the common supers to be an ingenious idea. Basically they run 8? hives on a pallet in a horizontal four queen hive arrangement. My first reaction about Apimondia itself is that I learn more at an Alberta Beekeepers Convention or ABF meeeting, but I know that isn't fair. I guess I expected to get more hard info like we do when practical beekeepers get together. At such times we get the scientists to show up and give us the latest magic bullet without expressing their deepest thoughts and misgivings. With the sort of mix we had at Apimondia, I think I came home with more questions than answers. Here is a random sampling to get things rolling... * Varroa and the problems it poses was definitely the flavour of the year. * I have in my possession some of the www.varroa.com mite strips given me by Wang. They don't even look like Apistan (R). The literature says they contain fluvalinate, but I didn't see 'fluvalinate-tau'. Hmmm. * I visited the Apistan booth and Max gave me a sample of the latest Vita treatment. It is 25% Thymol and works by the bees tracking through it. * Marva Spivak gave a really top notch talk and ended by suggesting bee breeders leave at least one yard untreated for any disease. When queried about what to do if the hives stated to 'go south', she seemed at a bit of a loss and we never did get an answer that I could understand... * There was a lot of talk about the mechanisms of resistance, but each speaker seemed to have a slightly different idea of how it works. * The consensus seemed to be that killing all the varroa -- or nearly all the varroa -- in a hive is a bad idea. Most solutions seemed to be aimed at controlling the levels of mites, but I had a bit of trouble understanding how to be sure that the levels are what they seem when one has hives scattered around the country. * The mite we think of as varroa jacobwhatever is not the one that gives us grief over here in America. There are 5 distinct species of mites that are visably different and have different ranges. If I got that right. * Sherriff style veils have taken over the bee fashion scene, with a little competition from a style that has a cloth coolie hat and tubular section that is attached by a zipper. * Pierco frames have a credible looking competitor from Nepal. * My mead is better than any I tasted all week. Aaron likes Guiness. * The new Swinger looks great. * The Billet hive loader is the answer for small to medium beekeepers who hate hiring help. * The Israeli hive platform thingy I dissed a year or so ago has some interesting possibilities, but probably not quite as many as the originators imagine. I'd dearly love to have one to play with. The cost is over $300 Canadian and it holds four hives. * Larry sold a lot of books. That's it for now. I know it's not much, but maybe this will trigger some ideas from others. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:07:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: From sci.ag.bee: Bombus vosnesenskii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit from Charlie Kroeger [ckrogrr@frankensteinface.com] via sci.ag.bee... ---- >I am looking for information on Bombus vosnesenskii. > Can anyone help? Well, not much help; but, it is a bumblebee of North America whose range is from British Columbia south to California, Nevada, and Mexico, including Baja California. The extreme color variations of bumblebee species are apparent if you see color plates of the 60 odd species within North and Central America. B. (Bombus) vosnesenskii looks superficially identical to B. californicus, and B. vandykei. If I had a fancy scanner I could include a .jpg file of the bee in question, but I don't. To pass along a quote from my source of bumblebee knowledge, "Bumblebee Economics, by Bernd Heinrich, (ISBN 0-674-08581-7 paperback) Mr. Heinrich points out this important fact: "Bees EVOLVED from their wasplike ancestors some 100 million years ago, while Homo has been on the scene for scarcely 2 million years. Yet, we consider these creatures to be below us on the evolutionary scale. If we reflect, however, that our evolutionary history (yes virginia, as apes and humans) is exceedingly brief in comparison with theirs (as bees), and that they have evolved very far along entirely different lines, then we can see that from the insect's perspective, we may well be lower. As I hate to miss an opportunity to editorialize along with a few scientific facts, I would just say that from our global behavior patterns as a species, we are obviously some kind of parasitic form of life that eventually kills it's host, rare among parasites, but true nonetheless; not a very high form of life at all. Charles Kroeger ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:26:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Winter Storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know what the winters are like in NC but assume you have periods of frosty weather. My preferred method would be to put a box over a strong hive and allow the bees to have access. They can then undertake caretaking duties and use some of the stores if they feel the need. Otherwise stack them in a cold spot with through ventillation with a queen excluder top and botton to keep mice out. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 07:42:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan B Tremblay Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 20 Sep 1999 to 21 Sep 1999 (#1999-180) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the recent recipe for propolis tincture, I neglected to mention that the amount of ethanol to use per pound of propolis is about one gallon. I use pure grain alcohol purchased from the liquor board since our tincture is often used internally. Thanks Ted Fischer for the note about ethanol. Rgds, Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 07:48:25 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: The Take Home Message from Apimondia In-Reply-To: <199909220423.AAA18383@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > It's been a few days now and things have had a little time to settle. Well, I haven't had the time. Thinking self employed is a luxury I covet but can ill afford. > I'm still at a loss to conclude what I learned at Apimondia. Ditto. > The field trip was worth the bus ride just to see Babe's pallet > arrangement for beehives outside the Plant health facility on > Vancouver Island. Yes, it was a great learning experience. And meeting Babe was one of the highpoints that goes beyond description, you just had to be there. Imagine if your grandmother kept bees. Then imagine if your grandmother was no relation, but an absolute stranger, yet she spoke to you as if she was your grandmother - as if she knew you from birth. ? No inhibitions, no holds barred, Babe was thrilled to meet you and treated you as family in spite of the fact that she knew you from Adam. A beekeepers' moment. I'll cherish it to my grave. > ... Basically they run 8? hives on a pallet in a horizontal four queen hive > arrangement. No, it was ten. Five per side. It was an arrangement to thwart bears. 5 on one side, 5 on the other, all connected so a bear would not be able to tear it as it would a wimpy single hive configuration. Honey supers were a single side, half pallet arrangement (25 frames, 2 and a half brood chambers!) and required a boom loader to take it off to allow a bee blower to extricate the bees and harvest the honey. An ingenious set up! > ... I guess I expected to get more hard info ... scientists to show up and give > us the latest magic bullet without expressing their deepest thoughts and > misgivings. I came away with an impression that "We (the scientists) really don't know". They're looing for the silver bullet, but the more they look the less they find and are only able to ask better questions. The main "take home message" that I found was that there is tenfold (perhaps more) value in attending Apimondia, or an ABF or EAS or AHPA (American Honey Producers Association) or NHB or ... or even your local beekeepers' association meetings to get first hand the information that is presented to you. What I can relay to you, or what Allen can relay, or what Jim Bach can relay to you, or what ANYONE can relay is second hand information. It may be close to what was presented, it may be left field, it's not what YOU would hear if you heard it first hand. It doesn't get any better than being there youirself. > With the sort of mix we had at Apimondia, I think I came home with more > questions than answers. Yes, but the questions prompt congitating the answers. (I know 'cogitating' is not a word). But congitate away! And, that's what BEE-L is all about! Present what we knoe, congitate solutions! University caliber discussions start with congitation(?)! > Here is a random sampling to get things rolling... > > * Varroa and the problems it poses was definitely the flavour of the year. Even more so at Gormanston. Would that the Varroa sessions didn't conflict with the AFB sessions. I know Shim put on an informative session, I regret I missed it. That was a problem with Apimondia. Usually at conferences there are a few conflicts. At Apimondis, for every session I attended there were two or three other sessions to which I would have sent my clone. > * ... www.varroa.com mite strips ... I didn't see 'fluvalinate-tau'. Hmmm. My strips made it past customs. I wonder how they'll measure up? Hmmm. Stay tuned! > * I visited the Apistan booth and Max gave me a sample of the latest Vita > treatment. It is 25% Thymol and works by the bees tracking through it. It was great to meet Dr. Watkins! It's nicer to know Max than Dr. W.! Thymol evaluation is forthcoming, although given climate conditions I'll probably wait until spring. > * Marva Spivak (seemed at a loss) when queried about what to > do if the hives stated to 'go south'... A very funny moment, you had to be there. I wonder how the translators handled it? The short of it is that you may want to leave a few hives (better yet an entire yard) untreated for mites in hopes that a resistent colony presents itself. > * There was a lot of talk about the mechanisms of resistance, but each speaker > seemed to have a slightly different idea of how it works. Or, "Everything we know is wrong!" Treatment strategies (both miths and AFB) bear revisinng, although the treatment du jour was somewhat cloudy. > ... Most solutions seemed to be aimed at controlling the levels of mite... Aiming for the "economic threshold". Did "economic threshold" ever get defined? > * The mite we think of as varroa jacob(soni)whatever is not the one that gives us > grief over here in America. There are 5 distinct species of mites that are > viaably different and have different ranges. If I got that right. Yes, the presentor claimed 5. What was most surprising was the assertion that the varroa mite to which most problems have been attriburted (Varroa jacobsoni), the mite which we have all learned jumped from Apis cerena to Apis mellifera is actually unable to reproduce on Apis melifferaa!!!! The mite devestating our honey bees is not Varroa jacobsoni, it's a different critter! Or so was said. Stay tuned for Varroa destructus! > * Sherriff style veils have taken over the bee fashion scene... I bought a Sheriff suit 3 years ago, way ahead of the fashions! I try to stay ahead of the times ;-) > ... competition from a style that has a cloth coolie hat and tubular section that > is attached by a zipper. Got one of them ten years ago from Betterbee. WAY ahead of the times! > * Pierco frames have a credible looking competitor from Nepal. And they (Nepal) have a really cool rubber frame condom that makes a great feeder! Only $2 (or a bizillion Nepaleze monatary units - I made that up). > * My mead is better than any I tasted all week. Aaron likes Guiness. Obviously Allen didn't taste the raspberry mead from Poland, but still, Guiness rules! Again, fond memories of Gormanston!!! > * The new Swinger looks great. Out of my league. > * The Billet hive loader is the answer for small to medium beekeepers who hate > hiring help. Then again, elbow grease is free. > * The Israeli hive platform thingy I dissed a year or so ago has some > interesting possibilities... Missed that one, and I was there. Truely a phenominal conference! I'm still a fan of elbow grease, although I have many a back ache :-( > * Larry sold a lot of books. Well, I did my part but I hope he sold a lot more. Larry's a great guy. Worth attending a conference just to make his aquaintence. And if you can get him singing, it's a treat! > ... maybe this will trigger some ideas from others. Congitate away! Actually, the cou de gras of attending Apimondia (or lesser conventions) is the opportunity to network. Whether it's meeting the vendors or the authors or our electronic friends and beekeeping buddies, the comoradery can't be beat! But let's not get mushy here, I hope others will weigh in! Aaron Morris - Thinking, it doesn't get better than networking! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 15:51:23 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: VACUUM AND WATER/ MOISTURE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Water is a liquid AT NORMAL TEMPERATURE AND PRESSURE. Reducing the pressure of a fluid containing water will have a similar effect to raising the temperature. There is every chance that the water content will reduce as Jan describes. Before we all start experimenting with honey buckets, sticky tape and vacuum cleaners, consider that water is not the only fluid in the bucket that will be affected by the reduction in pressure. You are likely to lose the most precious, the most volatile, the most ephemeral of essences: the subtle differences in bouquet and flavour that distinguish a fine wine from plonk. You will be selling your customers the residue. It may still be pretty good but it won't be the best. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:43:12 -0400 Reply-To: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: wtroyer Organization: Honey Hill Farm Subject: Re: The Take Home Message from Apimondia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Could you or anyone who saw the palletized 10 hive arrangement elaborate a bit more on how the supers were situated. Did I understand that the supers were common to all 10 colonies? I'm curious about how this arrangement was done. It sounds extremely efficient. Wade -- Web Site: http://www.honeyhillfarm.com E-mail: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Call Sign: W8BEE ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:07:46 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Take home message from Apimondia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thinking Aaron is right. Its the ideas and the people at Apimondia or any other beekeepers meeting that are valuable. I must have seen more than two hundred people that I've met and talked with over the years. Agreeing with Aaron - "Thinking, it doesn't get better than networking!" I enjoyed meeting Allen and Aaron and the other BEE-Lers in Vancouver. I wish I'd had more time to sit down and talk with them. Too many people to see. It was nice to be able to meet in one room Monday night and put faces to names, and share ideas about the list, its content and direction. I say again. Aaron and Allen are doing a superb job of maintaining its content within reasonable rules of professionalism, tolerance, diversity and opinion. I laud their efforts. Here are a few comments from my perspective in reference to Allen and Aaron's list of gleanings from the Congress: 1. What I learned: I heard quite a few ideas and small pieces of information on: a) create your own future - "The future is not in your rear view mirror." b) new Buckfast genetic material hasn't been introduced to the U.S. in recent years c) Scientific observation that colony behavior is affected by plant oils d) "Bee Calmer" as advertised in Bee Culture, has no remedial affect on HBTM or Varroa e) Queen sources vary in susceptibility to Nosema f) Queen cells are randomly distributed in a hive of bees g) Queens and brood are not affected by fluvalinate residues h) Bee fat body protein levels increased with consumption of pollen i) 20 percent of beekeepers are on line, 50% are over 50 years old j) ideas about publishing news and ideas in the bee press k) approximately 20 percent of beekeepers subscribe to bee journals l) Varroa on Cerana is not reproductive on A. mellifera m) Treatment research is finding bits and pieces of new information n) Clinical knowledge about bee venom therapy, its liabilities and questions of jurisprudence is improving. Much of what was presented in the sessions has been previously published. 2. What I didn't learn: a) Economic thresholds for HBTM, Varroa or Nosema. b) Answers to the so-what question resulting from scientific research. (The practical knowledge Allen was looking for.) 3. You often learn more at beekeepers meetings because you hear more practical and useful information that might be useful to you in the apiary. Your statement that you learn more at Alberta Beekeepers Convention or an ABF meeting is fair Allen. It is because scientists feel they are crossing the borders of their profession when they attempt to translate scientific knowledge to practical applications (so-called technology transfer). They leave that to the "extension specialists" however most of these folks have the same inhibitions. Bee management is not a college course you know. It takes at least five years of looking, seeing, questioning, cogitating, idea evaluation, refining observation techniques, and some study to develop a "sense" of successful bee management principles. This scientific environment is the genesis of the feelings among beekeepers that much of research is not relevant to reality and just supports the scientist's career and retirement not beekeepers' livelihoods. Beekeepers feel powerless to participate effectively in steering research to practical solutions. I think that is why beekeepers haven't enthusiastically and monetarily supported research. There is a perception of a disconnect between the scientific community and their ultimate customers. Canadian apiculture has formed a closer relationship between the scientist and industry which I've watched develop with gratification. Beekeepers fund more science in Canada. But some beekeepers still have a disconnect mind-set. 4. Allen says "scientists show up and give us the latest magic bullet without expressing their deepest thoughts and misgivings." I'm not sure that magic bullet is the right phrase. I'd just say the latest information. Their deepest thoughts and misgivings are beyond their professional boundaries. They present data or science, not their thoughts and the implications to beekeeping. One reason is because they only know a vary narrow slice of the available knowledge on any one subject. It is not to their benefit to know all the implications of all the scientific data and the likely or practical impact on bees or bee management. I only know of three who have ever talked about the things they observe while conducting their studies. Their business is to seek new knowledge, conduct science and publish it. That is why Allen "came home with more questions than answers." I often do the same. Aaron, cogitate is a word. My dictionary says it means: to think seriously and deeply about; ponder; meditate; consider. 5. Knowledge about Varroa is increasing but not much is of practical value. I've often said that beekeepers will have tolerant stock before science can understand the mechanism (genetic or otherwise) and develop strains of bees that will be of practical use in the apiary. The tolerance trait may be recessive, like HBTM tolerance, requiring expensive monitoring, development, and maintenance of the stock. Any practical impact may be 20 years in coming because it will probably take that long for the genetic factors that result in tolerance to become spread around in our genetic pool given the fragmented approach to genetic improvement. 6. Marla Spivak's comments that a breeder should leave one apiary untreated for disease is of course ideal (better than a few colonies). It is the quickest way to identify strains of bees tolerant to HBTM or Varroa. But then they should be propagated, monitored for undesirable traits and behaviors, selected for desirable traits and behaviors, propagated for the consuming beekeeper, and further monitored and tested for further improvement. What to do if the colonies start to 'go south?' Marla "seemed at a bit of a loss and we never did get an answer that I could understand." I don't think she can answer this question for three reasons: a) she may not have thought it through enough to prepare a succinct reply, b) her speaking time wouldn't allow for a complete or coherent response, c) the requested answer lies across her professional boundary as described above. The answer I would prescribe is: Define and measure the risk of colony losses as soon as sufficient information is available, their number, time of year, colony characteristics, the short and long term impact on the apiary, the whole operation including economics and management, and on the future direction of apiculture in North America. This activity would take some cogitation, a knowledge of business and economic principles, a sharp pencil, and a willingness to look at the cold hard facts. 7. Mechanisms of mite resistance: I didn't hear the talks on this subject but I gather from what I've heard and read previously that their comments probably reflect the leading edge of knowledge. This means that no one is prepared to give us a good word picture of all the possibilities, the probability of each one, and certainly not the final answer. 8. Economic threshold: I don't think anyone can accurately define this threshold because the science has not been done. To do so I think would require a definition of colony health, which hasn't been done to my knowledge. It would also require the definition and measurement of the various impacts to a colony from variations in nutrition, brood survival, the colony and hive environment, the impact of migratory movement, pesticides, colony management, and management economics. These and several others would all impact mite survival, population levels and hence the economic threshold. 9. The consensus that killing all the varroa, or nearly all, in a hive is a bad idea. Integrated pest management (IPM) theory suggests that you don't aim at killing 99 percent of a pest because you will have too small a population remaining. A small population is believed to build up tolerances to pesticides more quickly than larger populations. Instead, IPM requires several ways of treating pests, each accomplishing some level of control. 10. The only way to monitor mite populations when you have apiaries scattered around the country is to sample a representative number of colonies, or sample representative apiaries. Of course the more apiaries that are sampled, the more accurately the data reflects the probability of determining the variable levels of mites in your operation. If you can consider the bee colonies in an apiary or several apiaries in an area to be homogeneous then you could probably randomly take a one to five percent sample and come up with reliable data. The higher the percentage the more reflective the results. 11. The five species of Varroa information begs the so-what question. It is nice to know because you can more accurately define the subject population and conduct studies more pertinent, perhaps, to resolution of mite questions. But leaving apiaries untreated will bring the information sought for more quickly. 12. I had a Molson Canadian. I don't care for meads at all. I like Guiness since I first tasted it in Northern Ireland in 1994. 13. "The Israeli hive platform thingy." I don't see it as practical for economical reasons alone. One story brood nests don't work here in Washington State except with poor queens. The device requires increased management to remove brood from a crowded brood nest (but to where?). You'd need a boom or forklift to lift the supers so that you can add and work in a second brood nest. Jim James C. Bach jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:45:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: The Take Home Message from Apimondia Comments: To: beekeeper@HONEYHILLFARM.COM In-Reply-To: <199909230148.VAA23009@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...or anyone who saw the palletized 10 hive arrangement elaborate > a bit more on how the supers were situated. Did I understand that the > supers were common to all 10 colonies? I'm curious about how this > arrangement was done. It sounds extremely efficient. Yes. I'll try to handle this. The reason I thought there might be eight hives rather than the ten is that I remember the huge supers on top and thought that they must cover four hives each, not recalling thta they actually extended halfway onto the centre hives. I do recall Babe saying that there were ten hives though. I think I took pictures and that might help - later. Anyhow, the ten hives consist all of a standard and a medium (or two standards on some pallets) with an excluder on each. They are in two rows of five each facing east or west. They are strapped together with a steel strap like a belt that goes around the ten hives, and 8" X 2" X 25" angle pieces are used vertically on each corner both corner brood boxes are restrained by the one strap. The idea is to keep them together on the pallet and to make it harder for bears. Steel screening is added for when the hives are in real bear country. On top of the excluders go the two supers. They are each half the length of the whole thing, and the full width of the pallet and have a centre rib with two rabbets running lengthwise so that normal medium depth frames hang in there. More of these large supers can be stacked on in season, and then two telescoping lids that fit the supers go on top. The bees from all the ten hives can blend above the individual excluders, since the supers cover four full hives and two half hives each, so what we have in effect is a horizontal ten queen hive! The supers each have cleats so that a rope sling can lift them. Thus the whole super can be lifted by a crane and swung to one side to be blown out onto the ground before riding home. Babe's uses a Hiab mounted on the back of a tandem truck to lift the pallets and the supers. they have two such trucks, I believe. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 21:01:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Take home message from Apimondia Comments: To: JamesCBach In-Reply-To: <199909230204.WAA23323@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >...Aaron and Allen are doing a superb job of maintaining its content > within reasonable rules of professionalism, tolerance, diversity and > opinion... Thanks for the kind words. I should mention that there are currently two other more or less anonymous moderators working in parallel with us to keep the list chugging along. > h) Bee fat body protein levels increased with consumption of pollen Okay, that one got me wondering when I heard it, and I did hear it too. What is protein doing in a 'fat body'? Or is that just a term. I saw the diagram, and I guess I'd better get studying, since bee nutrition, and its effects is IMO, probably the most important single subject a beekeeper should master. I'm going to pick this up later, since you gave us a lot to chew, but I'm off to bed for now. As a last thought... If anyyone is interested in IPM and knowing what is really happening when the Apistan (R) goes in, my advice is don't take a few low level results in some yards to mean that there is no problem anywhere. We have been inserting Apistan (R) all week and watching the mite drop. Until today, nothing, BUT, this afternoon my son came home with some sticky boards just brown with mites and also saw mites on bees at the entrance and mites on the entrance in taht one ONE yard (so far). Six months ago we sampled 800 hives of our 3000 at a 10% level and did not see One Mite. Until now, levels we have found in the first quarter of the outfit have been around 20 mites or less, usually nil. This yard was at literally thousands. I wonde what else we will find? allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:48:48 +1200 Reply-To: nickw@beekeeping.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Take home message from Apimondia In-Reply-To: <199909230314.XAA26570@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Bee fat body protein levels increased with consumption of pollen G Kleinschmidt (Australia) did work on this. Initiated, I think, trying to understand why some Aussie colonies would 'collapse' before/during a flow. He monitored the protein levels to determine that for a colony to have sustainability, it needed high grade pollens X weeks before the anticipated flow... (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz 'Order' files from an autoresponder... Re-Queening Without Looking for the Queen? Email to: nolook@beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:16:28 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Re: VACUUM AND WATER/ MOISTURE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Beefriends Chris Slade writes > water is not the only fluid in the bucket that will > be affected by the reduction in pressure. You are likely to lose the most > precious, the most volatile, the most ephemeral of essences: the subtle > differences in bouquet and flavour that distinguish a fine wine from plonk. Chris is quite right. If we are in outer space, where is no external pressure, our blood will boil. Boiling is a process of liquid evaporating from all mass volume at the same time. But look at the oil refinery. First of all evaporates the liquid with the lowest boiling temperature. These who boil moonshine know it the best :) It seems to me that the essences are based on oil and therefore they have a higher boiling temperature than "water" (solution). Maybe, there is possible to choose such temperature and pressure conditions the water evaporation is much higher than of the fragrant oils ? This questions is for chemists. Cheer up Rimantas Zujus Kaunas LITHUANIA e-mail : zujus@isag.lei.lt ICQ# : 4201422 http://www.lei.lt http://gytis.lei.lt/ 55 N, 24 E ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:22:18 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Take home messages from Apimondia In-Reply-To: <199909230408.AAA28282@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Bee fat body protein levels increased with consumption of pollen > > G Kleinschmidt (Australia) did work on this. Initiated, I think, > trying to understand why some Aussie colonies would 'collapse' > before/during a flow. He monitored the protein levels to determine > that for a colony to have sustainability, it needed high grade > pollens X weeks before the anticipated flow... Graham Kleinschmidt has many papers on nutrition of honey bees. One titled "The Effect of Dietary Protein on Colony Performance" has as its summary:- "The level of body protein varied between 21% and 67% and was closely related to colony requirements. Under heavy honeyflow conditions, bees in colonies with a rapid decrease in body protein lived 20-26 days whereas in colonies which maintained body protein above 40% bees had a lifespan of 46-50 days. Colony reproduction did not completely compensate for deaths when longevity was short, whereas increased longevity allowed colonies to maintain large populations during a twelve week honey flow. Management should be designed to reduce extreme fluctuations in body protein and to maintain it above 40% whenever possible." I should also shortly put down my take home messages from Apimondia. There are many and will vary greatly from those people from North America. I was sorry that I did not get to the Bee-L meeting till it was almost over but I was attending a presentation on "Cryopreservation of honey bee embryos". Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:34:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Take home message from Apimondia In-Reply-To: <199909230204.WAA23323@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I didn't get to sleep, so here we go again, picking up where we left off. I appreciate your comments Jim and hopefully by kicking this around a bit we'll get others joining in to correct any errors and to add more things we miss... > ...Beekeepers feel powerless to participate effectively in steering research to > practical solutions. I think that is why beekeepers haven't > enthusiastically and monetarily supported research. There is a perception > of a disconnect between the scientific community and their ultimate > customers. This is always a bone of contention, since 'pure research' has a certain cachet in academic circles, and 'practical research', although loved and appreciated by the unwashed masses who pay for all research (me & my buddies, directly or indirectly) is considered a little less elevated in many scholarly circles. I'm personally not sure that I feel comfortable discriminating in favour of 'practical' work over purely scientific work, since both yield useful results beyond just pushing back the veil of Ignorance. Maybe I spent too long in school, but I do think that knowledge is power and that some of these studies into varroa for varroa's sake may just unlock the door to a permanent control or management method(s) before the various empirical studies do. Having said that, when funds were limited and I had to make a choice on projects to fund (when sitting as a board member), I chose the ones that looked most likely to put money into my pockets, and those of other beekeepers, most quickly. > 5. Knowledge about Varroa is increasing but not much is of practical value. It helps to know your enemy and his habits. > I've often said that beekeepers will have tolerant stock before science can > understand the mechanism (genetic or otherwise) and develop strains of bees > that will be of practical use in the apiary. I agree and it was interesting to hear one breeder claim tentatively to have had some good results. Time will tell. I am really interested in the HIP program that Jack Griffes is working on in conjunction with many others. They have a dogged determination that I wouldn't bet against. In fact I'd put some money on their nose. > The tolerance trait may be recessive, like HBTM tolerance, requiring expensive monitoring, development, and maintenance of the stock. I wonder about this. For one thing, I suspect that tolerance may require a combination of many traits, with a number being recessive. Speaking of recessive traits, hygienic behaviour seems to be getting a lot of talk these days, and at Apimondia, and has now apparently become something that is taken for granted as being an essential selection criterion in any serious attempt to breed bees. I can remember when hygienic behaviour was a novel idea and I think Steve Tabor was the major proponent of the idea and methods of detecting it before it became popular. FWIW, Steve Tabor has been claiming for as long as I can remember that AFB can be eliminated in short order by breeding for hygienic traits. Seems to me Bill wilson told us back in the '70's about someone (maybe him) having bred a line of noticably AFB resistant bees within about 5 generations as an experiment. There seems to be a consensus -- often expressed at Apimondia -- that hygienic behaviour is part of the solution to the puzzle that varroa has become, and I was pleased to hear reports that hygienic bees can be as productive, and did they say gentle?, as unselected bees. Hygienic behaviour is apparently recessive, and as such apparently requires that both parents possesss the gene in order for it to be expressed reliably. I learned that at Apimondia. I made me think: that means that AI is necessary, or an area -- eventually a continent -- flooded with the Right Kind of drones. > Any practical impact may be 20 years in coming because it will probably take that long for the genetic factors that result in tolerance to become spread around in our genetic pool given the fragmented approach to genetic improvement. > 8. Economic threshold: I don't think anyone can accurately define this > threshold because the science has not been done. To do so I think would > require a definition of colony health, which hasn't been done to my > knowledge. It would also require the definition and measurement of the > various impacts to a colony from variations in nutrition, brood survival, > the colony and hive environment, the impact of migratory movement, > pesticides, colony management, and management economics. These and several > others would all impact mite survival, population levels and hence the > economic threshold. This is what makes beekeeping an art, I guess. We have to intuit workability/profitability for many of the things we do, from feeding to wrapping, to buying vs raising queens... > 13. "The Israeli hive platform thingy." The Bee Guard "Easy Bee Rig" http://www.bee-guard.co.il/ > I don't see it as practical for economical reasons alone. > One story brood nests don't work here in Washington State > except with poor queens. It can accommodate double brood nests using an extension piece and the neat thing is that the supers do not have to be lifted off to work on the brood chambers. I have p[roblems with the idea that I would want to pull all the supers at once. I've seldom seen all supers on a pallet of four hives need pulling at once. And I doubt their claim that I could drive the bees down through four standards at once with BEE-Go. Anyhow it is an interesting idea, and I'd like to play with one. It's one of those things that I'd have to use to decide. I doubt it would work beyond the queen yard, but it might be the basis of some innovation on my part. Given a choice, I think like Babe's idea better. It's cheaper, and all the supers WILL be filled at once. But, I like to keep an open mind and try new things. BTW, Don't let me forget to talk sometime about 'fitness' of Apistan tolerant mites and the question of the degree of individual mite tolerance (whether it is a matter of degrees or yes/no). I have come to think -- even more than before -- that much of the discussion here on BEE-L about the mechanisms of developing tolerance by 'abuse' of Apistan may be predicated on concepts that are questionable in view of what is now known about the resistance mechanism. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:16:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Take home messages from Apimondia In-Reply-To: <199909230938.FAA01847@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Bee fat body protein levels increased with consumption of pollen ******** > > G Kleinschmidt (Australia) did work on this... "The level of body > protein varied between 21% and 67% and was closely related to colony > requirements... Management should be designed to reduce extreme > fluctuations in body protein and to maintain it above 40% whenever > possible." I guess the point I thought Jim was making that the speaker seemed to be saying that the protein was being stored in the body part called the _fat_ body, whereas all the previous discussions here mentioned (I assume) *whole* body protein assays. I had somehow imagined the protein to be distributed through the body, and perhaps the haemolymph, rather than stored in a specific organ. Of course, storage in the fat body does not preclude storage elsewhere. I am realizing how totally ignorant I am about this. The more I learn, the less I know :( I did a search for protein AND Australia at http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html and found more detailed references to the article, as well as other discussion, including some in APIS. I have some references here I got from my last IBRA search, and must get some of the papers to read, methinks. Inertia is a powerful influence, I am afraid. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:50:06 +0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: =?koi8-r?B?98XS2tXOIPAu6S4=?= Subject: Problems of third generation of bumblebees for greenhouse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We represent agricultural enterprise in Russia. We produse vegetables in = greenhouse. Two years ago we started to produce bumblebees for = polination of tomatoes and strawberries/ We have to buy queens and = colonies for production of queens abroad. This year we find features of = heteroises in those colonies. We try to produce queens ourselves but = because of foreign material we have problems in trird generation. We are = interesting of heteroisis of bumblebees. Thank you in advance. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 15:51:24 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: FGMO again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was told today that the Japanese (as members of a very polite society) find it difficult to disagree directly with people. They will use circumlocutions such as "my opinion is a little different to yours. Please allow me to explain." As we are limited to the typed word it is understandable that our poorly expressed reservations and queries about the typed words of others may result in unnecessary irritation which will often be aggravated by repeated bouts between the same communicators. This medium is in its infancy and without doubt in years to come we will be able to use voice inflection and body language to allow us to disagree with and question each other harmoniously (which may spoil a lot of fun). In the meantime it would be well if we were to make allowances and interpret generously any views of others which may have been more felicitously expressed. There is so much to learn about bees and for those of us over 50 who are probably very nearly half way through our lives it is a terrible waste of our most precious resource to spend time in acrimonious argument rather than friendly discussion. It may not be quite as much fun but perhaps we could take a lesson from Japan. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 08:08:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: VACUUM AND WATER/ MOISTURE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rimantas Zujus wrote: > It seems to me that the essences are based on oil and therefore they have a > higher boiling temperature than "water" (solution). Maybe, there is possible > to choose such temperature and pressure conditions the water evaporation is > much higher than of the fragrant oils ? > This questions is for chemists. Don't even have to be a chemist for this although I am one. If you smell it it will usually be the first thing to go, since it is already volatile enough to be leaving solution. And oils can be all over the board as far as boiling point, both lower and higher than water. Plus, fragrance and flavor do not have to be associated with oils but can be esters, alcohols, ethers... and other compounds, all with much lower boiling points than water. So Chris' comments are correct, that boiling by any method generally will reduce the fragrance of the honey. Since most all our flavor taste is based on smell, best leave the honey alone. Bill T ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:00:07 -0400 Reply-To: dublgully@fuse.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Judy and Dave Subject: Re: Terramyacin Use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scott Moser wrote: Second question is, has anyone else ever noticed that dusting the bees with TM-25 and powdered sugar causes dysentery in the bees? Scott: Does the powdered sugar contain cornstarch? Some beekeepers find that the cornstarch will contribute to dysentery. Powdered sugar without cornstarch is a bit hard to find, you have to shop around. Judy in Kentucky, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:14:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "BOGANSKY,RONALD J." Subject: Propolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, I have a question on propolis. I have an outyard located about 40 miles north of the general area I keep my other yards. It is on a farm in an area that is the beginning of a mountainous region. It is colder there then it is here in the valley area. I guess there are some trees that grow there that are not around here, like white birch, but the area is relatively the same. For the past two seasons the colonies there have collected a type of propolis unsimilar to anything I have ever seen. This is the third season for the bees at that location. The first year I didn't notice it. They collect a lot of it and it appears to "run" like melted wax down the comb during warm weather. When I first saw it I thought someone had dumped something down the hole in the inner cover. It literally dripped down across capped comb. When the substance is cooler it is hard and brittle almost like dried varnish. It does not smell funny or different and it even tastes like propolis although I have never seen propolis run. In warm weather it is usually like taffy. The colonies are somewhat shaded however we did have a very hot summer but this area would have been cooler than other locations. The bees are healthy and produced as much honey as my other colonies. I just don't know what it is. I scraped and discarded most of it but I would really like to know from what plant they are collecting. The farm grows some vegetables and pumpkins, corn and hay. No one has complained that the bees are in any buildings so I doubt that they got into something they shouldn't have. Maybe this is normal and I just don't see it in my other locations. Thoughts? Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:42:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Greg Hankins Subject: Re: Propolis In-Reply-To: <199909231421.KAA07012@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ron Bogansky asks about "runny" propolis. I don't have much insight, but thought I'd throw another propolis observation into the discussion. In the home yard hives I keep here in Piedmont NC I consistently have a striking variation in the type of propolis collected from hive to hive. More than half of my hives collect a gray-colored propolis while the remainder collect something that is very bright red. There's very little overlap. Hives are either red or gray and they are all in the same beeyard! Greg ______________________________________________________________ Greg Hankins Happy Hank's Honey House ghankins@ac.net Mt. Gilead, North Carolina ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:28:26 -0400 Reply-To: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: wtroyer Organization: Honey Hill Farm Subject: Re: VACUUM AND WATER/ MOISTURE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rimantas Zujus wrote: > Maybe, there is possible to choose such temperature and pressure conditions the > water evaporation is much higher than of the fragrant oils ? Bill Truesdell wrote: > If you smell it it will usually be the first thing to go, since it is already > volatile enough to be leaving solution. Perhaps, if someone would invent the correct distillation column, the water could be selectively removed and all the other "stuff" could be recombined leaving fragrant. almost natural honey. -- Web Site: http://www.honeyhillfarm.com E-mail: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Call Sign: W8BEE ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:15:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "BOGANSKY,RONALD J." Subject: Wax Moth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am not an expert on wax moth biology. I do know that cold temperatures kill larvae and eggs. I and other beekeepers in my area have been having problems with wax moth in honey supers than in the past two years. First I attributed it to earlier honey removal but now I think that is only part of the problem. My colonies are strong so it is not a problem with the hive but obviously there is some egg laying going on because if I have supers stored for a week or two I start seeing the worm. I also find I have to keep a closer eye on stored supers then in the past. We have had two mild winters back to back. I wonder does this have more of an affect then I first thought. I don't know how you manage it in warmer climates. I don't use QEs and that adds to the problem, but I never used them. Maybe cold winters are not that bad after all. Does a cold winter kill most of them or at least drive them South? Things are always changing and we have to change with them. Jack Methenius, a retired inspector from NJ would extract his honey in the field and place the supers back on the hives above the inner cover. He would then remove them after the bees moved down on a cool day. That doesn't work as well when you remove and replace them earlier in the season. After I extract I let the bees clean the supers before I store them. If not the bees are always in the shed trying to get at them anyway. I do this far enough away that I never had a robbing or angry bee problems. I had some supers that were still wet and we were going away for a few days. I didn't want to leave them out because I thought the neighbors daughter who was coming in to take care of our animals might be afraid. I took them down to the colonies and placed them on the inner covers. When I went down with the second load the robbing was starting and the bees were furious. I got this all under control after I was chased back to get a veil. With the warm weather the bees did not abandon them. I went down on a cool morning (~45 F) and still had bees in the supers. Removing them was a lot of extra work and they had stored honey in them again and one even had brood. At least there was no wax moth damage. Possibly putting an empty super in between may have avoided this. It is just not worth the work as I have had no problems with my current method all these years. What worked for Jack a few years ago may not be the ticket any longer. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:22:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Terramyacin Use Comments: To: dublgully@fuse.net In-Reply-To: <199909231307.JAA05100@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Does the powdered sugar contain cornstarch? Some beekeepers find that the > cornstarch will contribute to dysentery. Powdered sugar without cornstarch is > a bit hard to find, you have to shop around. We have never noticed any problems, and we have used many bags of icing sugar for dusting. The amount of corn starch in a normal oxytet dusting should not cause any problems, particularly if the bees are not confined at the time. Only a couple of spoonsful of the mixture is recommended. On the other hand, in making candy for winter feed or mixing syrup, much more sugar is used and some sources warn about bad effects from using sugar containing starch. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 14:39:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Organization: Thom's Honeybees Subject: Re: Propolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron, I saw this for the first time this year. Here, my standard practice is to prop the outer cover up with a stick to afford 1/2" space above the inner cover for improved vent. and an upper entrance. The bees don't seem to see this as a violation of bees space as it is outside the hive, above the inner cover. A colony propolized the gap in the covers nearly closed (unusual here) and was the only hive of the 6 I had there to do so. It ran, down the outside of the box. Thought I'd pass on I saw the same thing. Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA "BOGANSKY,RONALD J." wrote: > They collect a lot of it and it appears to "run" like melted wax down the comb > during warm weather. When I first saw it I thought someone had dumped > something down the hole in the inner cover. It literally dripped down across > capped comb. When the substance is cooler it is hard and brittle almost like > dried varnish. It does not smell funny or different and it even tastes like > propolis although I have never seen propolis run. > Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 14:57:55 -0400 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: Wax Moth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wet or dry supers, in my opinion, has little effect on the wax moth. What really does attract them is pollen stored in super cells, which may be left there after extraction. The second most attractive comb for moths is one in which brood has been reared. That is why I always use an excluder under the supers, and in case of damage and the queen somehow does get through, that excluder is used ever after only as a mouse guard! On the subject of open bee cleaning of wet supers - this is what I have done for 20 years without any moth problem at all. Before that I used to stack them on hives for cleanout. But I found as did Ron that often in a good year honey and even brood might be found in these supers later. That never happens in a separate stack. What about robbing? A weak hive might be robbed, but not strong ones. I even have about ten two frame nucs in the yard next to which I set my supers for cleaning, but none was attacked except two that I opened and attempted to combine. Even that was solved by grass packing of the entrance. I much, much prefer dry supers stored in my barn to wet ones. (Bees, yellow jackets and mice don't come snooping around as much.) Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 07:17:38 +1200 Reply-To: nickw@beekeeping.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Take home message from Apimondia In-Reply-To: <199909231149.HAA03218@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Seems to me Bill wilson told us back in the '70's about > someone (maybe him) having bred a line of noticably AFB resistant bees > within about 5 generations as an experiment. Again from memory, it was at Ohio State, done back in the 40s or 50s? Started with two distinct lines: one that was claimed to be somewhat resistant, one that was susceptible. By the time they had done selections and in breeding over about 5 generations, the first was so resistant they could feed it spores pretty well direct. The other was so at risk you couldn't breathe over it after working an AFB hive, so to speak. But in selecting/breeding for the one characteristic only, they lost just about everything else: the lines were outrageously hard to handle, and deficient in just about every other way. But the point was made: resistance (and susceptibility) to AFB can be changed through selective breeding... I'll go find the reference later this AM and post it here - it was very interesting work when you consider the time it was undertaken and the magnitude of the question being attempted... (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz 'Order' files from an autoresponder... Bibliography: Paraffin Wax for Preservation, AFB? Email to: paraffin@beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:49:55 +1200 Reply-To: nickw@beekeeping.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: AFB resistance through breeding Comments: To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT From: Rothenbuhler, Walter C. 1980. Necessary links in the chain of honey bee stock improvement. American Bee Journal March 1980, p 224: "The level of resistance to American foulbrood was dramatically increased by selective breeding (reviewed by Rothenbuhler, 1957; Cale and Rothenbuhler, 1975). Colonies of resistant stock, developed by selection, have taken an inoculation of 1000 scales of AFB in the middle of their broodnest without showing recognizable new symptoms of disease. Furthermore, the scales were removed from the inoculation comb and healthy brood reared immediately. Highly susceptible bees were tested simultaneously with the resistant ones to constitute a controlled experiment and they became heavily diseased." References were: Rothenbuhler, W.C. 1957. diploid male tissue as new evidence on sex determination in honey bees. Journal of heridity 48:160-168. (I think that is not the right reference; rather, I'd go for: Rothenbuhler, W.C. 1958. Genetics and breeding of the honey bee. Annual Review of Entomology 3:161-180.) Cale, G.H. Jr. and W.C. Rothenbuhler. 1975. Genetics and breeding of the honey bee, p. 157-184. In Dadant and Sons (Ed.) The Hive and the Honey Bee. Dadant and Sons, Hamilton, Illinois. (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz 'Order' files from an autoresponder... The Value of Re-Queening? Email to: qvalue@beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 07:41:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Your Real Name Subject: Re: VACUUM AND WATER/ MOISTURE > > take a honey container/bucket that you can close airtight, > > connect a vacuum pump to the container,let it work for 8 hours..... > > the water moisture of the honey will be 5 % LOWER. > > No influence on HMf or enzyme,little affect on the taste > ...consider that water is not the only fluid in the bucket that will > be affected by the reduction in pressure. You are likely to lose the most > precious, the most volatile, the most ephemeral of essences: the subtle > differences in bouquet and flavour... My opinion is a little different to yours. Please allow me to explain, CSlade777-san... I understand that vacuum has been the method of choice for removing water from honey for some time. No matter what the method, natural drying in the hive, air circulation in a hot room equipped with a drier, or vacuum pumping, the volatiles should be about equally vulnerable to loss into the atmosphere. In the hive, bees move air past the open cells, and the most volatile things are prone to leave first. The same ocurs in a hot room. When reducing the atmospheric pressure in a vessel, as proposed, I should think that the proportions of things given off would not change much, if at all. Although it seems somewhat counterintuitive, I suspect the quality will not suffer any more than in natural drying. Following this line of thought, I should mention that I saw a rather sophisticated machine at Apimondia designed to do exactly the task in question, and to handle fairly large volumes of honey each day. Seems to me it was at the Dadant booth. I was told that this unit -- rather than using a conventional vacuum pump which gets clogged up with honey stuff -- creates vacuum by using a water jet (venturi). FWIW, in the experiment that Jan mentions, a vacuum cleaner might or might not not provide sufficient suction, but also might overheat due to lack of air throughput. As he said, a vacuum pump would be required. The other question of course is whether the bucket would stand the compression or buckle over time. I also wonder how well the moisture would migrate up through a full bucket of honey. allen ---- PS: As one who has sold a lot of honey into Japan, been subjected to visits by Japanese customers, and studied a little history, I think maybe there is a tendancy to romanticise a society which has proven to be brutal and abusive in its own way. Excessive politeness is a popular and subtle way of being rude in Japan, as it is in England. People are people, and all peoples have their own ways of tormenting one another. Be that as it may, I agree very much with you and suggest that, in addition to being careful what one writes, people must be careful what they read. By that I mean that they should be very careful what they read into things. What people get out of something depends very largely on who they are themselves. What people see in what is written says a lot about them. Maybe more than it says about the writer. I often get email retorts that are based on faulty reading of an article and completely miss the point of what I have written. It is not uncommon for some to put words into my mouth that are the opposite of what I have carefully said. I'm used to it and have come to find it predictable. After many years, I figure that those who want to be offended will be offended and those who want peace will find peace -- anywhere. Amen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:45:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: VACUUM AND WATER/ MOISTURE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your Real Name wrote: > I understand that vacuum has been the method of choice for removing water > from honey for some time. No matter what the method, natural drying in the > hive, air circulation in a hot room equipped with a drier, or vacuum > pumping, the volatiles should be about equally vulnerable to loss into the > atmosphere. True if all things, namely pv/nrt is same for both processes. Difference is the bees know when to stop and cap the cells, while we run the vacuum overnight. In essence, the bees are running their version of a vacuum pump by fanning to keep air circulation over the uncapped honey. It reduces the pressure over the honey, albeit minimally, so promotes evaporation. But they take their time and have much less loss. We speed up the process and have much less control. Lots of other things would come into play with either reduced pressure or increased temperature, including ionic bonding and other molecular actions, including chemical reactions- the breakdown of the oils and esters. Would be an interesting research thesis for a grad student. As to Allen's other comments and Chris' concerning hurt feelings on this list. I doubt if any on this present list mean to offend. Sometimes it is just exasperation which can come off as an attack but not intended to hurt. If you have been on the net for a while, especially on unmoderated newsgroups, your skin thickens appreciably and you let perceived insults die. So, Allen, no need to hide any more. You can put "your real name" there. We will be kind. :) Bill T ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 08:27:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Van Roekel Subject: Re: Take home message from Apimondia In-Reply-To: <199909231951.PAA16065@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> Seems to me Bill wilson told us back in the '70's about >> someone (maybe him) having bred a line of noticably AFB resistant bees within about 5 generations as an experiment. > >Again from memory, it was at Ohio State, done back in the 40s or 50s? At the risk of being corrected by someone who has the references in front of them, I need to stand up for my home state. I believe the development of AFB resistant bees was done here in Iowa. The time frame was (I think), the 50's or 60's. I got my start in bee keeping after taking a class at Iowa State University from Richard Trump, who as I remember, worked on this project. I am not sure who else was involved, Mr. Trump apparently was just assisting. (Possibly it was Frank(?) Pellet) The resistant colonies were not maintained for very long after the experiment. The cost of maintaining the bees (budget constraints), and the development of inexpensive easy chemical treatments for AFB removed much of their appeal/value. It seems to me that Mr. Trump indicated that these resistant bees were not much different from other colonies in production or temperment. I would be happy to hear from anyone who has the references for this project (even if my story is completely wrong). FWIW Bill Van Roekel Central Iowa, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 20:15:44 +0100 Reply-To: John Burgess Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Burgess Subject: Re: VACUUM AND WATER/ MOISTURE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Rimantas Zujus > It seems to me that the essences are based on oil and therefore they have a > higher boiling temperature than "water" (solution). > This questions is for chemists. > When a mixture of essential oil and water is distilled, the vapour is a mixture of the two, known as an azeotropic mixture, even though the boiling point of the oil may be much higher than water. This is one way in which such oils are purified. Do the bees also lose much of the fragrance during the concentration process in the hive? John Burgess, Editor Gwenynwyr Cymru, The Welsh Beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:21:59 EDT Reply-To: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: Re: Fat body function in honey bee and other insects MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear b-line members, The fat body in insects including honey bees is composed of cells. Protein and glycogen are stored as granules in the fat body. The insect fat body is equivalent to the vertebrate liver. Like the vertebrate liver, the insect fat body synthesizes, stores and mobilizes lipids, proteins and glycogen. Variations in the food reserves of the fat body depend on the state of nutrition, activity and starvation. Do you know that the fat body in honey bee queens is the a major site for production of the vitellogenin (egg proteins)? This egg protein is released to the haemolymph. Then, the ovaries will absorb the protein to produce eggs. This information shows the importance of the fat body to insects including honey bees. Medhat important Medhat Nasr, Ph.D. Research Scientist, Ontario Beekeepers' Association Dept. Environmental Biology University of Guelph Guelph, Ontario, Canada N1G 2W1 Tel: (519) 824-4120 Fax:(519)837-0442 e-mail: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 22:42:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: peter dillon Subject: Wicked Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bonjour, Whist discussing our problems with Sunflowers and Bees in France on 22/9/99 with a local farmer here in France, he casually mentioned that on the T.V. the night before there was a report that Africanised Honey Bees have been found in Spain!!. Has anybody heard anything about this our is it an "untruth"? Peter. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 19:24:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bruce Guidotti Subject: Re: Anti-Varroa Bottom Board MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/20/99 2:12:39 AM, patterson@EARTHLINK.NET writes: << According to the designers experience on his colonies, this bottom board eliminates any need for chemical treatment. >> Tom: There have been many strings of e-mails on this subject. You should go to the archives. My understanding is that screened bottom boards are a help but not necessarily a replacement for chemical treatment. Diane Sammataro who has researched the subject has said it will reduce varroa approximately 10% which can help a healthy hive, but is probably not suffcient in an of itself. One big issue from my experience: I used a screened bottom board this summer over a conventional bottom board. Major downside is bees can't get to lower bottom board. I removed it when I medicated the hive a week ago. I had a MASSIVE infestation of wax moths and wax moth larvae under the board. If you use a screened board, you have to figure some way to be able to sweep the conventional bottom board under it regularly -- or some way to keep the bottom of the hive exposed. Anyone on the Bee-L have any facts or opinions about what would happen if I used the screened bottom board on the 12" deep closed in box I use for a stand on my hives? Would wax moths still be a problem since it would still be a closed in space under the hive? Only good suggestion I got from prior stings of mail was to make the bottom board accessible from the back of the hive for periodic sweeping. Since my bees aren't at my home, anyone have any less labor intensive suggestions. Bruce ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 07:40:57 +0100 Reply-To: Ruary Rudd Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: VACUUM AND WATER/ MOISTURE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: John Burgess Date: 23 September 1999 20:15 Subject: Re: VACUUM AND WATER/ MOISTURE >----- Original Message ----- >Do the bees also lose much of the fragrance during the concentration process >in the hive? > When you consider the aroma which emanates from a hive in the evening when the bees are fanning during a honey flow, the answer has to be yes. Ruary Rudd rrudd@eircom.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 21:50:04 -0400 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Drop Test. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have need to talk to someone regarding Apistan drop tests, please. If you have performed any drop tests at the end of the season, preferably on hives with no other alternative summer treatments, I would be delighted to hear from you, on or off the list. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Vest/veil combination **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 20:40:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Drop Test. Comments: To: admin@beeworks.com In-Reply-To: <199909260214.WAA17079@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have need to talk to someone regarding Apistan drop tests, please. > If you have performed any drop tests at the end of the season, > preferably on hives with no other alternative summer treatments, I > would be delighted to hear from you, on or off the list. We have done exactly that, and on a fairly large scale. We sampled a random 10% of 800 hives with Apistan (R) in July and found nothing. Later, in September, natural drop tests showed only one mite in 40 colonies 100% tested for three days. Subsequent Apistan 24 hour drop tests tests in that same one yard -- sampled 100% -- dropped the numbers shown in our recent post available at http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Subsequent trials in the same yard with formic gave one mite. We were advised that the levels were too low to justify treatment, but we thought that this could be the tip of an iceberg, and soon we found more mites in other yards, using 24 hour Apistan drops. Since then, we have put two strips of Apistan in all our hives as quickly as we can (we're half done) and put sticky boards into 3 hives chosen at random in each yard. Drops vary from zero and one in most cases to the 2,000+, 160 and 400 we got in one yard so far. Random hive examinations show that there is no sealed brood in most hives in the bad yard mentioned above, so this expalins the large number of mites hit, and because they are almost all phoretic, we expect that we should hit virtually all the mites in this yard this round. We also threw in 30 ml of formic when installing Apistan(r) as a backup, and to hit any TM. Formic gets the mites that might be Apistan(R) resistant, as well. At this time of year formic pads should be very effective, since most mites are phoretic except in weaker hives that are still catching up. Please feel free to contact me directly or through the list if you think my results and research can be of any assistance. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 18:26:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "W. Allen Dick" Subject: Re: Formic, Lactic and Oxalic Acid for Fighting Varroa >>Does anyone on the list know of the use of oxylic acid in the treatment >>of veroa, I believe someone in Italy is doing research into this. >>Is there a useful url for this topic? >...Oxalic acid - it is used as a solution together with sugar in water and >dropped on the bees in the hive. You have to be sure that there are no >brood combs (in autumn) because the varroa cannot be killed in the brood >combs... This was posted some time back, and I've been searching all over the net for any information. Can't find any. I heard that some Canadian researchers had done something on this recently, and I was told by one very knowledgeable fellow that it is a very effective and inexpensive treatment. Is anyone on the list able to supply more details, and maybe an URL? We have finally stated to use formic for treatment this fall, and I'm a bit surprised to find that it is easier and faster to use than Apistan(R). Additionally, it is much cheaper. I'm now curious about oxalic... allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 08:58:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andrew Dubas Subject: pollination: 19 of 70 colonies lost pesticide question Comments: To: Bee-L Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello, I rent 70 hives to a grower in NJ. This past spring I took in the 70 colonies at different times like probably a week to 2 weeks apart. each yard having 15 colonies and one with 10. I went yesterday to treat for mites and put in tera-patties and I lost about 19 colonies. the average loss was 4 per yard. There were not 19 actual dead maybe 10 actual dead colonies and the rest were not dead just needed to be combined. I believe its from what ever pesticide the grower is using. There were lots of dead bees out front of the hives and on the bottom boards. On the other hand there were some hives that were super strong and looked great. on a whole they seemed to be weak. and lots of dead bees. So any way my question is for pollinators what if any are some pesticides I can suggest to this grower that are not as lethal to the bees, hes growing squash, peppers, cucumbers, mellons etc. mostly all vegetabels. also anyone who pollinates in or near swedesboro, NJ what is the going rate per hive in that area ? ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 20:48:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Formic, Lactic and Oxalic Acid for Fighting Varroa In-Reply-To: <199909252226.SAA14014@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > ...I've been searching all over the net > for any information. Can't find any. > We have finally stated to use formic pads for treatment this fall, and I'm a > bit surprised to find that it is easier and faster to use than Apistan(R). > Additionally, it is much cheaper. I'm now curious about oxalic... As soon as I posted this I found that my search at Apiservices had indeed worked and I now had two URLs, both in French. No problem. Here they are: http://www.apiservices.com/articles/oxalic_fr.htm and http://www.apiservices.com/articles/varroas_fr.htm There are two methods discussed, spraying and drizzling. Here's a short quote from the one on drizzling: Dégouttement: "Cette méthode utilise une solution faite d'une part d'acide oxalique dihydraté et de 10 parts d'eau de même que de 10 parts de sucre. On déverse sur les abeilles 5 ml de cette solution par ruelle de cadre occupée au moyen du doseur de Perizin ou d’une seringue. Pour une colonie faible, il faut environ 30 ml, pour une colonie moyenne 40 et pour une colonie forte 50 ml de solution. Les traitements doivent être effectués à une température supérieure à 5°C et la solution "chambrée" avant son utilisation. Le travail requis par cette méthode est comparativement beaucoup moins important que l'application par pulvérisation car on ne doit pas retirer chaque cadre de la ruche". Although the docs are in French, it is not too hard to get the gist of it. (A person can use use Babelfish at Altavista, but it leaves gaps where one must guess, since beekeeper words are unknown to the machine). I gather that 1 kilo of oxalic acid hydrate, and 10 kilos of water and 10 kilos of sugar would make about 2.5 litres and treat 2500/50 = 50 strong colonies using the drizzle method. The spray (Pulvérisation) The instructions are to dribble 5 ml of the mixture onto the bees along each gap between occupied frames. With 9 frames of bees that would be 8 gaps and 40 ml. The only 'cons' I've heard about it is that it must be practiced on hives with no brood (hence November in Switzerland) and the bees are a bit upset for several weeks after treatment. There were some reports of unexpected winter loss afterwardes, but the researchers mentioned that local yards not treated with oxalic also suffered losses. Maybe I should go to the drug store, get a little oxalic and do an experiment. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 11:57:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Anti-Varroa Bottom Board MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So what? I don't have a copy of "Honey Bee Pests, Predators and Diseases" so I can't confirm what I recall (please correct me if I'm disemminating incorrect information here), but isn't it true that the moths are only a problem in the summer? All of the wax moths and larvae will die off with the first frost. Don't most beekeepers do "spring cleaning" at some point? At that time, when the hives are at their lightest, you can remove the screen and clean the accumulated mess, since you'll be breaking the hive down anyway. The question here seems to be which is a greater stress, the moths or the extra 10% of mites? As long as your hives are strong and healthy in the summer they won't be badly stressed by the infestation beneath the screen, at least not with as much potential for damage as they would be by the extra 10% of mites that the screen thwarts. The moths are the lesser of two evils. John ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 16:56:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Jones Subject: Help with horses Comments: To: Bee List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Visiting one of my bee yards the other day I noticed a single strand electric fence on the property line not two feet away from my hives. I have since found out that the abutting property owners are going to put horses in the enclosed field. Now I know horses and bees don't get along. Should I plan on moving my bees? Is it that big of a problem? How about if they decide on cows? Steve Jones ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:05:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: awcannon Subject: Re: Anti-Varroa Bottom Board MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: John Mitchell To: Sent: Sunday, September 26, 1999 4:57 PM Subject: Re: Anti-Varroa Bottom Board > board.> > As someone who changes his floorboards at least twice if not more times a year why not do the same you can easily clear any wax moths away as well as the muck. Also why not make a movable insert of thin ply or hardboard that you can take out at any time? cover it with vaseline and then both moths and v arroa wont be able to get away. Remember cleanliness is one of the keys to good Bee keeping. Albert W Take care and stay lucky. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 18:50:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nancy D Subject: Re: Help with horses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (Now I know horses and bees don't get along. Should I plan on moving my bees? Is it that big of a problem? How about if they decide on cows?) My bees are within two feet of the neighbors fence line and there has never been a problem with the two mixing.....cows are probably 100 ft away and that poses no problem either. I guess they all respect each other's space. When I gave the neighbors some honey they never mentioned any problem and have a great interest in the bees. No problems in Arkansas. Nancy Dalrymple, NW Arkansas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 21:18:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Take home message from Apimondia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/23/99 6:50:40 AM, allend@INTERNODE.NET writes: <> This comment really caught my attention. What, specifically, is it that we know about the resistance mechanism and how does it potentially change our understanding of how one abuses Apistan? Before asking you to explain how you seem to be debunking the concept of the abuse of Apistan as it's currently understood, I think a strong disclaimer is called for that asserts that however lucid and convincing the dialogue is that takes place here on BEE-L, one should always follow the directions on the package, until those directions are changed. John ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 21:35:55 -0400 Reply-To: String & Linda Monteith Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: String & Linda Monteith Subject: Re: Help with horses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now I know horses and bees don't get >along. Should I plan on moving my bees? Is it that big of a problem? >How about if they decide on cows? I don't understand. I've had my bees next to a farm with horses, cows, hogs, buffalo, goats, turkeys, chickens, donkeys, emus and heaven only knows what else (Yes, all on the same farm) for over 2 years now with never a problem. Is there something I don't know about this? How do figure that they don't get along? Linda ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 20:29:40 -0500 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: Re: Help with horses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I keep my bees 30 feet from my horse pasture. In 15 years, no problems. I would not expect a problem for you. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA > Now I know horses and bees don't get > along. Should I plan on moving my bees? Is it that big of a problem? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 09:02:26 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Re: VACUUM AND WATER/ MOISTURE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From: Ruary Rudd > From: John Burgess > >Do the bees also lose much of the fragrance during the concentration > process > >in the hive? > > > When you consider the aroma which emanates from a hive in the evening when > the bees are fanning during a honey flow, the answer has to be yes. > But this aroma reminds me a smell of growing dough. It isn't alike to pleasant nectar smell. Rimantas Zujus Kaunas LITHUANIA 55 N, 24 E ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 06:58:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Jones Subject: Re: Help with horses Comments: To: Bee List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay, I guess I got that wrong, thanks for all the advice. I could have sworn I had read somewhere that horses and bees don't get along. Sounds like my over active imagination again. Actually this is great as I don't want to move the hives, it's a great spot. If anything comes of it I'll let you know. Steve J. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 06:10:16 -0400 Reply-To: slnewc@alltel.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gina Smith Subject: Aluminum Foil Foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently came across 9 shallow frames of aluminum foil foundation in some used supers that I bought. I have never seen it before. Can someone give me some details as to possible age, history, etc? Thank you ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 08:11:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: RASpiek@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Help with horses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had also heard that horses and bee did not mix but I have minature donkeys grazing within 5 feet of my hives. No problem Richard Ky ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 08:22:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Help with horses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have had problems with horses and bees. Although the horses were seperated from the bees by electric fence the horses were in a half acre area. I think the horses when stung need to be able to move well away from the hives so that additional bees don't sting due to the alarm pheremone. In addition a barrier the bees must fly up and over so the horses are not in the line of flight would be wise. I had to relocate my bees on short notice. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 08:12:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Organization: Thom's Honeybees Subject: Re: Help with horses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve, The problem with horses and cows comes into play when they are not separated. The large animals find the stacked colonies convenient to scratch on, until they push over the hives or upset the bees. Any aggressive colonies that tend to get you when you step out of the truck, will bother the livestock as well. Just make sure the colonies remain gentle and noone will care. Thom Bradley Steve Jones wrote: Now I know horses and bees don't get > along. Should I plan on moving my bees? Is it that big of a problem? > How about if they decide on cows? > > Steve Jones ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 07:22:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Help with horses In-Reply-To: <199909262138.RAA00216@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have since found out that the abutting property owners are going > to put horses in the enclosed field... May I refer you a thread from 1998 at http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html entitled 'Horses"? Simply enter 'horses' into the search pane. I originally looked for just 'horse', by got a lot of junk about kicking dead horses on BEE-L. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 09:24:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Help with horses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Okay, I guess I got that wrong, thanks for all the advice. I could have >sworn I had read somewhere that horses and bees don't get along. Sounds >like my over active imagination again. Actually this is great as I >don't want to move the hives, it's a great spot. If anything comes of >it I'll let you know. Horses and bees do have problems at times. Not to be too alarmist but it was only a few years ago here in Florida that one of our state bee inspectors was telling me about his being called in a lawsuit where the horse had to be put down after an incident with neighbors bees. The bees were getting into the watering trough of the horse, the horse got spooked and started running around, the bees got confused and started flying around and things just got out of hand. If you are talking about an open pasture area were the horses can roam around and get away from any bees that may be bothering them then I do not think that what happened above could be much of an issue. Just make sure your bees have access to water and that should keep them away from the troughs. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:04:52 -0400 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: Help with horses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just one more comment to add to this thread. For years, I've had a yard right next to a horse farm, separated only by a grove of spruce trees. There was never any problem until last year when the owner began giving group riding lessons. Then there was a swarm of bees that went over the spruces and clustered on the horse farm side of the trees. Suddenly there was a big problem - the owner wondered what her students did that "angered" the bees so much. She couldn't have such things happening around her classes! So therefore the bees had to be moved. The problem really had nothing to do with horses, but rather people impatient with the bees around them. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:59:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: C Toombs Subject: Bot flies not bees on horses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have horses next door and cows in the bee yard and no problems at all as long as I keep the bees fenced off so the cow's can't knock over the hives scratching themselves on them. My cows have learned not to stand in the flight path. My bees are far more reactive to my mostly black boarder collie and have often chased and stung him when he gets in the bee yard though they leave my white lab alone. Often on horses the insects that look like bees trying to sting them are in reality bot flies trying to lay eggs on the horse's coat. The eggs are tiny cream colored grains attached to the ends of hairs usually found around a horses fore arms and flanks. The horse will ingest the eggs while scratching itself with it's teeth and the larvae then develop in the horse's digestive system where they can do great harm and in untreated animals actually cause death from malnutrition. Most equine de-wormer products are made to remedy this pest. Horses will react violently to the assault of this fly and run and buck to avoid them. Many people will see the horses acting wildly and notice the fly but assume it is a bee. Look for the eggs as evidence. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:48:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Formic, Lactic and Oxalic Acid for Fighting Varroa In-Reply-To: <199909261319.JAA25159@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > ... I'm now curious about oxalic... > I gather that 1 kilo of oxalic acid hydrate, and 10 kilos of water > and 10 kilos of sugar would make about 2.5 litres and treat 2500/50 = > 50 strong colonies using the drizzle method. Since I came up with this, I found this on the French list, regarding using oaxalic acid to bleach beeswax for candles. Excuse the translation: " the safety instructions concerning the use of oxalic acid, valid for professionals and non-professionals, require the use of gloves classified for strong acids, and wearing of a mask. Oxalic acid, although present in many plants, is classified as one of most dangerous in toxicology (mortal at 5 G) with a toxic vapor, especially in boiling. Attention therefore, with its use in concentrations over 1 gram per liter. Work should be done under a hood or with good ventillation." (courtesy François Chataux). This might be of interest to those either bleaching wax or trying oxalic for mite control. Additionally, I received this today: "I read about your interest in oxalic acid in bee-L. Do not overdose if you use it in sugar solution! You will probably end up with many very weak hives. We have been trying to find an optimal dose but it seems to be difficult as the lethal dose for bees is very near to the lethal dose to the mite. This problem seems to be pronounced in cold climates. I can try to find more information for you from my archives if you are interested." I am hoping the writer will be able to shed more light on the use of oxalic and the problems associated with this otherwise effective method. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:24:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit July l999 ALBERTA BEE NEWS 5 About Varroa Just Like the Energizer Bunny by Kenn Tuckey, ph. (780) 4I5-23l4 This spring I conducted a small experiment with my own bees that I had hoped not to be able to do for some time yet. As I was unwrapping my bees on May 22 (I know, I know some of you think that is way too late but that could be the topic of another article) anyway, as I was saying when I unwrapped my bees on May 22 I discovered that they were infested with varroa mites. I noticed the varroa on some drone pupae that were located between the bottom and second brood chambers. I am not the first beekeeper to first find varroa that way. When I tested my bees with Apistan last spring they were "apparently free" of varroa. I examined the adult bees in a couple of hives but I didn't spot any varroa that way. During the course of my work I scraped clump of capped drone brood from the tops of the frames. Later, on a whim. I picked up two of those clumps and popped them into a zip-loc bag so that I could show off the varroa to some of my co-workers. When I got home I removed one of the clumps to examine it more closely, That's when I noticed how agile and fast varroa are some were on my hand and others were crawling out of the bag. I quickly closed up the bag and decided it would be interesting to see how long the varroa would survive away from the hive and any live bees. I simply kept the plastic bag at room temperature but I did take precautions to make sure that the sample did not get exposed to direct sunlight. I tried to remember to check the sample at least once a day to see if the varroa were still alive. On the evening of May 28 the sixth day there were still live varroa to be seen through the plastic bag. On May 29,the ninth day there were no varroa left alive thae I could find so I opened up a pupa and found a live varroa. The pupa still appeared to be in reasonable shape; it was obviously dead but it had not yet started to decompose. However the outer surfaces of the clumps (the wax) were beginning to be covered by a healthy growth of moulds. It took some talking to convince the lady of the house that this was an important scientific study and it should NOT be chucked into the garbage. The varroa I released, or another one, continued to live for a few days. On June 2, I had to open another cell to find a live varroa. Each day from then to June 7 -- Day l6. I was able to find a live varroa by opening a cell containing a drone pupa. On June 8 and 9 I was unable to check on my "pets." When I got back to the zip-lock bag on ) June 10 I was unable to find any varroa alive. By this time the whole sample was very badly moulded and the drone pupa had all rotted. The whole mess was then ceremoniously deposited in the receptacle under our kitchen sink. I am sometimes asked how long varroa will survive away from bees. I still don't know but from this little study I know that even under very poor conditions they can survive for ae least l6 days, One clear implication is that you cannot quickly put bees back into equipment that has held varroa infested bees and expect the new bees to stay clean. MORE STUDY As I mentioned these varroa were kept in very poor conditions. I am fortunate there is no SPCV (Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Varroa)! It would be very interesting to have a whole comb of varroa invested brood and keep it in a well ventilated location to prevent the mould that I experienced. We know from our experiences in package bee days that the mould does not always occur and frequently the pupae can still look pretty good after a winter in storage. I suspect that under these conditions that varroa will be able to survive on the dead pupae for much longer. PRECAUTIONS I.Varroa are quick and they are long lived. If you are working in hives that have a lot of varroa there is a good chance that there will be varroa on your clothes and you can be the veetor that rnoves varroa around your operation. 2. If you decide to try an experiment like this make sure thar. you have a mite-tight screened container to keep the varroa in where you want them. Varroa on the loose in your home ean precipitate a domestie crisis but varroa loose in your honey house can contribute to the passing of varroa to the bee operation of anyone who may stop to visit. ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:51:51 -0300 Reply-To: eunice.wonnacott@pei.sympatico.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Formic, Lactic and Oxalic Acid for Fighting Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > > > ... I'm now curious about oxalic... > (Not quite on tipic, but close) Allen Dick, and others: My early experience with oxalic acid is in household use. Very small amounts of this in crystalline form, slightly moistened, were the standard household method of removing fruit stains from the hands and under nails!! Great after hulling strawberries, cutting rhubarb, etc. I have about 1 cc of it in a tightly covered bottle, marked with a skull and crossbones and kept very well away from others, which I have guarded carefully for many years. If it is available in the present day, I would really like to replenish my supply! Where do I shop? Eunice ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:11:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Aluminum Foil Foundation Comments: To: slnewc@alltel.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Tucson Bee Lab (USDA) had a few wooden frames with the cells formed of many strips of thin aluminum, but the corrugated strips were laid at right angles to the foundation (hope that is understandable), and also I believe there was a foundation layer of aluminum. These frames were probably collected by Dr. Alan Woodrow, Mr. Todd, or Mr. MacGregor, and were quite aged when I arrived on the lab scene in 1964. Never saw them in action in a hive, but believe they were designed to be dipped in wax before use. Suggest you save yours, at least for a display. - John Edwards, Tucson Gina Smith wrote: > I recently came across 9 shallow frames of aluminum foil foundation in some > used supers that I bought. I have never seen it before. Can someone give > me some details as to possible age, history, etc? > > Thank you ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 22:19:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Take home message from Apimondia In-Reply-To: <199909270211.WAA04536@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I have come to think -- even more than > > before -- that much of the discussion here on BEE-L about the mechanisms of > > developing tolerance by 'abuse' of Apistan may be predicated on concepts that > > are questionable in view of what is now known about the resistance > > mechanism. > > This comment really caught my attention. What, specifically, is it that we > know about the resistance mechanism and how does it potentially change our > understanding of how one abuses Apistan? Well, I'm in the middle of Mark Winston's excellent book, "From Where I Sit", (I wonder if there is a pun in there somewhere?) and since I am too lazy to write all my own (mostly derivative) thoughts out, I'll quote some of what he says for background, and claim the proof to be intuitive, and give some hints at the end. "Varroa mites have changed the picture and are a clear example of the speed at which resistance can develop. Studies in Italy in the early 1990s, and in France in the mid-1990s, found that Varroa had become resistant to fluvalinate, the pesticide in Apistan strips, after about ten years of use. We expect 95 to 99 percent of Vurroa to be killed by a proper application of Apistan, but the Italians found only about 80 percent mortality, which left enough Varroa o multiply and kill a colony within a few months. First the Italians, and then the French, were forced to switch to more toxic substances that are not, and likely never will be, licensed for use in North America. "What is particularly frightening about this scenario is that no other registered chemicals effective against Varroa are available in the United States, so resistance to fluvalinate would quickly devastate the U.S. beekeeping industry. Even more frightening is the fact that many commonly used management practices are perfectly designed to select for resistant Varroa mites. If I wanted to do an experiment to produce resistant mites, I would do nothing more than what is being done illegally today by some North American beekeepers, and I could virtually guarantee that within five years or less I would have mites resistant to Apistan. "The development of resistance to miticides is a fairly common and simple phenomenon. Mites feed on a wide variety of plants and animals, which have evolved numerous protective chemicals to defend themselves from the mites. In most cases, the hungry mites then developed enzyme systems able to break down these chemical defenses. This ability of mites to detoxify natural compounds works on artificial compounds as well. Thus, when mites encounter a commercialy produced miticide, a few of them will survive because they have the ability to break down the novel chemical. The surviving mites reproduce, and their offspring thrive because the more susceptible competing mites have been killed off, leaving a wide-open field for the resistant mites to take over. Ironically, our usual pest management response to these survivors is to throw ever-higher doses of chemicals at them, which further selects for even more resistant mites. "Apistan is the type of product that can induce resistance even if properly used. Its active ingredient, fluvalinate, kills mites by disrupting their nervous system, and is thought to be more deadly to Varroa than to bees simply because the mites are so much smaller; a dose lethal to a mite won't kill a bee. Current recommendations all across North America suggest two or even three applications of Apistan each season, for forty-two to forty-five days at each application. Spring and fall applications are recommended, both so the honey won't be contaminated and because the mites are more exposed to the chemical when they are out of brood cells and on adult bees. Two or three annual treatments are necessary to keep mite levels down, and the consequences of less frequent or no treatments are diminished honey production and high colony mortality. These repeated applications of the same miticide within a single season follow both label and extension agent recommendations. But even properly applied treatments may select for resistant mites, since the mites that survive the first exposure to Apistan and reproduce are likely to be the ones most able to detoxify the fluvalinate." --- Add to that the point that 1.) the specimens that exhibit fluvalinate resistance tend to be less 'fit' and 2.) That it may be that fluvalinate resistance in mites is a yes or no thing and that there may -- or may not -- be intermediate stages of resistance, and the whole question becomes very murky to the point of being unknowable. I believe that *no one*, including the manufacturer and the regulators, knows if the label directions are, in fact, optimal. Many problems with a large number of unknowns have an array of equally valid solutions. I believe that it is reasonable, from examining this particular problem (applying fluvalinate), that there are many possible equally valid possibilities for applying the chemical, and that the label is only one. Or several, if we take into account that the directions vary from country to country. What is very clear, is, in Mark's words: "Apistan is the type of product that can induce resistance even if properly used". My main point is this: I submit that, if probabilities are properly assessed, the likelihood of resistance being developed by a relatively small number of off-label uses of Apistan(R) (not other fluvalinate concoctions) is not significantly greater than the _certainty_ that resistance will develop in a relatively short time in one of the vastly many more situations where the label is followed -- as much as humanly possible -- to the letter. I suggest it is less. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 20:08:27 +0200 Reply-To: Apiservices - Gilles Ratia Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Apiservices - Gilles Ratia Organization: Apiservices Subject: Re: Formic, Lactic and Oxalic Acid for Fighting Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: >Is anyone on the list able to supply more details, and maybe an URL?< In German: http://www.imkerei.com/articles/oxalic_ge.htm In French: http://www.apiculture.com/articles/oxalic_fr.htm But nothing in English < snip >... try to translate the articles with http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/translate? or http://web.systranet.com/translate.html Best regards, Gilles RATIA International Beekeeping Consultant Webmaster of the "Virtual Beekeeping Gallery" President of the Apimondia Standing Commission on Beekeeping Technology and Equipment Web: http://www.beekeeping.com Email: gilles.ratia@apiservices.com _________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 17:46:09 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Take homes messages from Apimondia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thought I should make time and write some of my thoughts before Durban comes around. For me the most important message was that Australia must do everything in its powers to keep out varroa and tracheal mites. I would imagine that a lot of the words spoken at Vancouver were on varroa. We can keep it out and so I will do my bit. As a queen bee breeder, I was very interested in the amount of time dedicated to talking about hygenic bees. Medhat put a very good point in his presentation about hygenic bees not being the whole answer to varroa but part of an IPM (Intergrated Pest Management) Plan. We have been familiar with talking to crop growers about IPM to help protect out bees during pollination but the ball is now in the beeekepers court on this issue. The honey research segment was very interesting. It brought home to me how lucky we in Australia are to have a research capability funded by levies on honey. We have been able to fund research on looking for honey that has anti-bacterial properties. This will certainly give a good niche market plus all the publicity we receive, especially here in Australia, will have a positive spinoff on honey in general. The other great feature was being able to meet people that up to know had only been an email address. I made a point of trying to make a mental picture of how people would look but, as usual, reality was totally different. Aaron you were much younger. It was also great to be able to catch up with the many friends in the beekeeping world in Canada I have made over the past 13 years. All in all it was a great event and congratulations to the organisers. I will certainly be challenged by the seminars I attended for a long time to come. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:39:58 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Seppo Korpela Organization: Agricultural Research Centre of Finland Subject: Re: Formic, Lactic and Oxalic Acid for Fighting Varroa In-Reply-To: <01JGFLC2H81WDWOP5X@mtt.fi> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT > I gather that 1 kilo of oxalic acid hydrate, and 10 kilos of water and 10 kilos > of sugar would make about 2.5 litres and treat 2500/50 = 50 strong colonies > using the drizzle method. The spray (Pulvérisation) The instructions are to > dribble 5 ml of the mixture onto the bees along each gap between occupied > frames. With 9 frames of bees that would be 8 gaps and 40 ml. This solution is the so called original italian solution. However, mixing 1 kg oxalic acid dihydrate, 10 liter of water and 10 kg of sugar gives you 16.8 liters of solution, which is enough to treat 336 strong colonies with 50 ml/colony. > > The only 'cons' I've heard about it is that it must be practiced on hives with > no brood (hence November in Switzerland) and the bees are a bit upset for > several weeks after treatment. There were some reports of unexpected winter loss > afterwardes, but the researchers mentioned that local yards not treated with > oxalic also suffered losses. > I am a member in the european group of researchers in a project "Coordination in Europe of research on integrated control of Varroa mites in honey bee colonies" (see http://www.entom.slu.se/res/proj16b.html for description and reports of meetings). Within this program ca. 300 colonies were treated fall 1998 in Nordic countries with either 2.1 or 4.2 % (original italian) oxalic acid solutions using the trickling method. This experiment did not show in most cases differences in colony strengths in spring between experimental groups and the control group. Tests planned for this fall should show whether doses somewhat lower than the original italian solution (Dose in the italian instructions was given as 5 ml/comb well covered by bees on Dadant- Blatt frame size. For Langstroth frames the dose would correspondingly be 4 ml/comb.) still show a good efficacy and are well tolerated by the bees. It was a tendency in all european experiments within the program that groups of colonies treated with 2.1% solution were even stronger in the spring than untreated colonies (only treated with Perizin as well as the oxalic acid treated groups). It is important to know that overdosing causes problems. In my autumn 1997 test I applied oxalic acid solution with a 40% larger dose as some instructions gave wrong formula for the solution (instead of 1 kg oxalic acid solution in the above formula, 1.4 kg was given as the oxalic acid dihydrate amount corresponding to 1 kg of pure acid). With this overdosing 39 out of the 63 treated colonies died in the winter and 16 were very weak. Only 1 out of 14 control colonies was lost in the winter. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 05:14:33 -0600 Reply-To: fltdeck1@ix.netcom.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Subject: Re: Help with horses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We had an incident last year where a wandering bull crashed through some neighboring fence. The bull pushed over several hives leaving only dung and a few black hairs as tell-tale clues. After examining the remains I surmised the bull had a mighty sweet-tooth. Since the hives were being fed using one gallon top-feeders (the day prior) and these were found empty to the last drop, it's easy to imagine the bottles were rolled along the ground until emptied. The neighbor mended his fence and I stopped feeding which brought things back to order. As the rancher put it "try to keep a bull fenced in when it wants something". They'll put their body weight into the barbedwire until it snaps. Whether the bull smelled the sugar-water from the next property or when it wandered next to the hives is my question. Matthew Westall - Earthling Bees - Castle Rock, CO > > Thom Bradley wrote: > The problem with horses and cows comes into play when they are > not > separated. The large animals find the stacked colonies convenient to > scratch on, until they push over the hives or upset the bees. > > Steve Jones wrote: > > along. Should I plan on moving my bees? Is it that big of a > problem? > > How about if they decide on cows? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:01:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Formic, Lactic and Oxalic Acid for Fighting Varroa In-Reply-To: <199909281100.HAA20396@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This solution is the so called original italian solution. However, mixing 1 kg > oxalic acid dihydrate, 10 liter of water and 10 kg of sugar gives you > 16.8 liters of solution, which is enough to treat 336 strong colonies > with 50 ml/colony. Thanks for correcting me. I don't know how I ever thought that 1 kilo acid dihydrate + 10 kilos water + 10 kilos of sugar could make 2.5 litres without the kind of pressure usually available only near a black hole. I guess I should read my own posts before I send them Oh, well, goes to show that people must not just believe everything I write without thinking first. I make a lot of mistakes. Eventually I usually get things more or less right -- often with some help. > I am a member in the european group of researchers in a project > "Coordination in Europe of research on integrated control of Varroa mites in > honey bee colonies" (see http://www.entom.slu.se/res/proj16b.html for > description and reports of meetings). I appreciate your taking the time to shed some light on this for us North Americans, and for pointing out the pitfalls. I realise that Europeans are away ahead of us in some of these matters. Any other thoughts will be much appreciated. < For Langstroth frames the dose would correspondingly be 4 > ml/comb.) still show a good efficacy and are well tolerated by the > bees... It is important to know that overdosing causes problems. These are very significant points, thanks. For those who wondered where to get oxalic acid, the first place for small amounts is a drug store. After that, a chemical supply like the ones that supply high school chemistry labs, and lastly, for large amounts, an industrial chemical supply like VanWaters & Rogers. Canadian Tire used to sell a two part heavy duty radiator flush for automobiles. The active part was pure oxalic acid AFAIK. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:30:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "BOGANSKY,RONALD J." Subject: Light Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, The old saying, "be careful what you wish for, you just may get it", really hit home this year. When I first started keeping bees most of the honey I would get was dark. It was primarily tulip poplar. It had a good flavor but it was dark. Most customers wanted light honey because that is what they were used to. I remember wishing I could get some light honey. Over the years as I started adding new locations and began getting light honey. Also because of varroa treatment I stopped harvesting fall honey. Well unfortunately this year the wish came true. All the honey I brought in was very light. The drought hit our area hard and the most of the honey that the bees made came in May. The black locust bloom was huge and I know they brought in a good amount of it, but most the honey I am seeing is from honeysuckle. Some will argue that bees cannot get nectar from honeysuckle because of the flower. This is true for the vine type, but not the bush/shrub variety. I was telling all this to a local botanist. He told me that honeysuckle has been spreading rapidly in wooded and fringe areas. Many farm fields that have been abandoned are filling up with this plant. On my own property I must have 15 or 20 that were planted by the birds. In fact all you had to do was put a stick in the ground for the birds to perch on and a plant would be growing there the following year. It is not a native species and was planted in the 50's - 70's by property owners as wildlife cover plant. In some areas it is being viewed as an invasive pest. The honey is very light with a very mild flavor. It blends well with other honey but I didn't get much else this year. Although the tulip poplar bloomed heavily it was ignored by the bees who were busy on the honeysuckle. I did see a new local brand of honey on the store shelve this week. It was dark. Although I don't know the producer, he is not that far away. I wonder what his bees found that mine couldn't, that is if it is his honey and he is not buying it in from who knows where. Well there is always next year. I guess I could change my treatment schedule on some colonies and then take fall honey, or I could just wish for dark honey, but..... Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 15:47:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marko Randjic Subject: American pleigh or so... In-Reply-To: <199909281058.GAA20341@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hello! For a long time it was thought that the american pleigh of bee's brood (I don't know if this is the right expression in English) could not be treated. All of the infected hives were destroyed to prevent this danerous disease from spreading. A rumour has reached me recently that there is a way to deal with this disease without destroying the hives. Is there some way to treat this disease and fight the infection? If there is, what should be done? Marko ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 09:38:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: American pleigh or so... In-Reply-To: <199909281516.LAA26524@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > For a long time it was thought that the american pleigh of bee's brood (I > don't know if this is the right expression in English) could not be treated. Hello Marko, I think you mean American Foulbrood, sometimes called American Foul Brood, and also referred to as AFB. > All of the infected hives were destroyed to prevent this danerous disease from > spreading. A rumour has reached me recently that there is a way to deal with > this disease without destroying the hives. Is there some way to treat this > disease and fight the infection? If there is, what should be done? We have discussed this for a long time on this list and there are many excellent articles in our logs expressing several different points of view. Some people say burn or melt, others say treat with oxytetracycline, and others say breed bees that can stand AFB. Others yet say use a combination of all three techniques to master the disease. I suggest you search our archives at http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html using 'American Foulbrood','American Foul Brood',and 'AFB' as keys and ask if you need more information. Regards, allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 12:43:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: American pleigh or so... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all One of the great things about using plastic foundation is that if you have a dead colony and suspect American Foulbrood, then all you have to do is scrape off the comb, scorch the box and it *should* be safe to re-use the equipment. This is because the scale that the Foulbrood leaves behind is attached to the bottom of the cell.....not the midrib as I had mistakenly thought. Is my thinking correct? Comments welcome. Ian Watson > We have discussed this for a long time on this list and there are many excellent > articles in our logs expressing several different points of view. Some people > say burn or melt, others say treat with oxytetracycline, and others say breed > bees that can stand AFB. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:22:06 -0500 Reply-To: Debbie Dahl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Debbie Dahl Organization: RAD Ranch - DairyDoll Subject: Re: Help with horses Comments: To: fltdeck1@ix.netcom.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a concern that I have with our livestock too. If I get a hive or two, my goats will probably have fun jumping on them, as goats are quite nimble-footed and it's a game to them to play "king/queen" of the mountain. The "mountain" may just be a pile of rocks, but a nice square set of boxes would be even better. :) Am kind of surprised that the bull didn't get stung alot or run off by the bees though. Question - is it possible to mount a hive in a tree or hang it up, to avoid the livestock getting it? We also have a resident bear that is seen on occasion. Although I promote leaving wildlife alone, I don't want to spend the money on a hive, deal with the disease concerns, and then find out the bear has raided my honey. Debbie Dahl Oklahoma ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 13:18:56 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: American pleigh or so... In-Reply-To: <199909281648.MAA28944@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ian Watson writes: >... plastic foundation ... if you ... suspect American Foulbrood, then > all you have to do is scrape off the comb, scorch the box and it > *should* be safe to re-use the equipment.because the > scale that the Foulbrood leaves behind is attached to the bottom > of the cell.....not the midrib as I had mistakenly thought. I would not be so cavalier. The reason you scorch the box is because there may be spores on surfaces other than the combs. I would be more suspect of the post-scraping plastic foundation before I would be of the hive boxes. Aaron Morris - thinking don't cut corners! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 20:44:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Joe Rollins Subject: Re: Light Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit honeysuckle is a superior tasting pollen, I can't say about honey. try collecting pollen when the honeysuckle is blooming. it tastes just like honeysuckle smells. Gourmet Pollen. Joe Rollins, SW Mississippi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 18:34:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Formic Pads Comments: To: Paul S LeRoy In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990927204830.007af7a0@mail.wctel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In one of your recent posts to BEE-L you mentioned installing formic pads. > WHERE DID YOU GET THEM? I have contacted BetterBee and they advised that > it would be October before they would be available and I personally doubt > they will be then. Okay. I started to write this earlier, but a power bump knocked out about a half hour's hard work, and the automatic backup somehow did not get written, and darn it, I had to do some work, so, belatedly, here I go again. Wish me luck and a continuous AC supply. I'll get to your question shortly. I think what BetterBee has been working on is approval for a gel based proprietary formic acid pad that will be legal in the USA. Out in the free world, people already use formic in many different concoctions and take advantage of having an alternate treatment that also hits the tracheal mite -- along with any fluvalinate resistant varroa that happen to be within range. The Germans in particular have been using formic for a long time and have some nifty devices for applying it, but most appear impractical to me for large scale commercial use. One in particular, the Nassenheider Device I dissed rather thoroughly in previous posts. (I recommend you search the posts out, since there is a lot of talk about formic in the logs). Anyhow, since then I have moderated my stance a bit after meeting the nice and very committed people at their stand at Apimondia and was shown their latest improvement. I had previously met them at the BetterBee booth at the ABF convention in Virginia (I believe Betterbee has some of their devices). My main two complaints were that the device is too unhandy for a commercial guy like me, and that it is too costly. Added to that I had heard of some preliminary research that showed a drop in honey production from hives treated long term with formic vs. the ones treated with 3 to 5 - 3 ml pads 5 or so days apart. Since then the research has never been published, so I guess it was not convincing, and I have been looking at things like the Homesote board idea. The big plus for the Nassenheider for the small operator is that it dispenses (theoretically at least) a measured amount of formic daily -- unlike many of the other methods. Anyhow, in Canada, many things have been tried, from squirting raw acid onto bottom boards, to pot holders (or even feminine napkins) soaked in acid, to various proprietary devices. One proprietary system that came out was the so-called Mite-Wipe (R) pad that was a pad with 30ml of 65% acid already soaked into it. This product was based on research done in Ontario, Canada. The pad is placed onto the top bars of the hive and is supposed to give off the magical 7 ml per day for 4 days, at which time it is to be replaced: twice for TM, and four times for varroa. No sooner did it hit the market, than some observant beekeeepers noticed that it resembled almost exactly the Dri-loc 50 poultry, meat and fish pad that is found in virtually every package of retail meat sold. A little sleuthing, and beekeepers were making their own 'Mite-Wipes (R)'. That brings us the job of work that interrupted my writing today, and an answer to your question... I was interrupted by my courier arriving with some supplies: 204 litres of 85% formic acid and 10,000 Driloc-50 pads which are available at one of the local paper supply places in Calgary. (For a small number of pads , I think any meat cutter could oblige, and for smaller amounts of acid, a local pharmacist or high school chemistry teacher would be helpful). The formic I received is shipped in a beautiful 55 gallon (US) plastic drum (suitable for making mead, I think) and the Dri-loc pads are 2,000 to a box which is about 18" x 20" x 22". The acid is somewhere around $600 CAD ($400 US) and the pads are about $50 CAD per box. We set the drum on a pallet and raised it with the forklift a bit. Our mission: to make 85% formic into 65%. I had done a little math previously, and I found that 6 litres of the Real Thing would make 8 litres of the dilute stuff. A litre is about the same as US quart. I hope my math today was better than my math yesterday. I took a 60 pound honey pail and measured 2 litres into the pail and marked the level with a marker (Pails are translucent and you can see a mark on the outside when you look inside). I then marked the 6 litre and the 8 litre levels and started siphoning Acid with my trusting clear nylon mead siphon. I soon verified that 2 litres water plus 6 litre 85% acid give 8 litres of 65% solution. (This could not be taken for granted, but happened to be true. Sometimes the resulting volume of mixing compounds is significantly less than the simple sum of volumes). I also discovered that in this case, it did not matter whether we added water to acid or acid to water; the reaction was not particularly exothermic or violent. Actually it was pretty boring. It looked like adding water to water, and we had to watch which bucket was which, because they were so similar. (I wonder if I can find a dye which formic will not bleach). Having learned this, we were off and running. We put 250 (exactly one stack from the box) of the pads into a 2-1/2 gallon honey pail and added 8 litres of the 65% acid and put on the lid. It was ready to use -- after the acid had a chance to equalise through the pads. We repeated this a few times and in half an hour, we had enough to treat 1500 hives once. Hope this helps. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:23:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Light Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/28/99 1:20:42 PM, BOGANSRJ@APCI.COM writes: <> The Brooklyn (NY) Botanic Garden publishes handbooks quarterly on topics of botanic and ecological interest. Handbook #149 is titled "Invasive Plants: Weeds of the Global Garden." Seems like the invasives often make good honey plants. Invasives include Black Locust (native in the Eastern US, invasive in areas beyond that range), bamboo (from India and China); the bush honeysuckle varieties (amur from China, Korea and Japan; Morrow from Japan; Tartarian from Turkey and soutern Russia) and, or course, purple loosestrife (Eurasia native). I recommend this book since so many of these invasives seem to make an unusual contribution to beekeepers' supers. James Luken, with the dept. of biological sciences at Northern Kentucky University wrote this about bush honeysuckle: "Bush honeysuckles colonize a variety of habitats, from open (old fields, marshes, roadsides) to shaded (upland and lowland forests), but are most successful in full sun. Generally, disturbed urban forests are more readily invaded than large intact, rural ones. Bush honeysuckles can transform prairies into scrub. In forest preserves they can reduce the plant diversity of the ground layer and decrease the density of tree seedlings, with possible long-term effect on tree populations. However, very few studies have been done to determine specifically how bush honeysuckles interact with other species in biological communites. Clearly, native birds feed on the fruits in winter and may use the shrubs for nesting."