Re: Wallace & 1 John 5:20

Braulio Barillas (parakal@quetzal.net)
Sun, 10 May 1998 16:39:46 -0600

At 01:57 10/05/98 -0400, you wrote:
>At 08:11 PM 5/8/98 EDT, GregStffrd wrote:
>
>>Without any examples, it is difficult to evaluate what you say. There is
>>nothing to establish who the "predominant subject" is in this verse, as it
>>could legitimately be Jesus or "the true one." To me, the emphasis seems
>to be
>>on the One Jesus came to tell us about, TON ALHTHINON.
>
>I'm not sure what kind of examples you are looking for, Greg. The last noun
>phrase before hOUTOS is TWi hUIWi AUTOU IHSOU CRISTWi. Sometimes hOUTOS
>might refer to the predominant subject instead, so let's see what this
>predominant subject is by looking at the subject of each phrase preceding
>hOUTOS:
>
>John 5:20
>
>hO hUIOS TOU QEOU hHKEI, <- Jesus
>KAI DEDWKEN hHMIN DIANOIAN <- Jesus
>hINA GINWSKWMEN TON ALHQINON <- explains why Jesus did that
>KAI ESMEN EN TWi ALHQINWi (us... in Jesus or the Father)
>EN TWi hUIWi AUTOU IHSOU CRISTWi. <- Jesus
>** hOUTOS **
>
>Now at the point that hOUTOS occurs, what is the predominant subject? What
>is the preceding noun phrase? If both point to Jesus, what is the referent
>for hOUTOS?
>
>I think that the predominant subject is Jesus regardless of whether EN TWi
>ALHQINWi refers to Jesus or the Father. But I also think that it refers to
>Jesus - see the next part.
>
>>>The thing that makes this a little hard to read is John's playing with (1)
>>>TON ALHQINON, referring to God, the one who is true, and (2) EN TWi
>>>ALHQINWi "in him who is true". At first blush, this looks like it refers to
>>>God, not to Jesus, but to me, the repeated EN in (2) and (3) strongly imply
>>>that they refer to the same thing: "we are in him who is true, in his son
>>>Jesus Christ".
>
>>That is an interesting view, but how is it that the repetition of EN equates
>>"the true one" with hO hUIOS AUTOU?
>
>KAI ESMEN
> EN TWi ALHQINWi
> EN TWi hUIWi AUTOU IHSOU CRISTWi.
>
>"And we are in the true one, in his Son Jesus Christ". This seems to
>correlate the two. How do you interpret the grammar here such that TWi
>ALHQINWi and EN TWi hUIWi AUTOU IHSOU CRISTWi are two different things?
>Maybe there's a possible reading here that I'm missing.
>
>>When John says "the Son AUTOU" that seems
>>to break the connection that follows from your view. We are in the true
>one by
>>being in "the Son OF HIM." HOUTOS, then, may legitimately refer to AUTOS
>or hO
>>ALHTHINOS. Grammatically it may apply to hO hUIOS or IHSOU CHRISTWi, but the
>>correlation between hO ALHTHINOS and hO ALTHINOS THEOS is practically
>>unavoidable, and the restriction of this title to the Father in John 17:3 is
>>of considerable importance in this grammatically ambiguous text.
>
>Well, first off, I really think it is stretching to suggest that hOUTOS may
>refer to AUTOS or hO ALHQINOS. Maybe I'm missing something, but I just
>can't bend it that far. I do not find the antecedent of hOUTOS to be
>ambiguous, and I also think that the Johaninne writings use the word hOUTOS
>with great care to avoid the kind of ambiguity you are reading into this.
>
>And as I've suggested, I think that both Jesus and the Father are referred
>to as ALHQINOS in this passage.
>
>Regarding the restriction of the title, read on...
>
>>More important, though, is the fact that John knew his readers
>>recognized only One as hO ALHTHINOS THEOS, this because of what Jesus said to
>>the Father in John 17:3.
>
>Many phrases attributed to God are also attributed to Jesus in the Gospel
>of John, including THEOS, in John 20:28 hO KURIOS MOU KAI hO QEOS MOU ("my
>Lord and my God"), a statement from Thomas which drew the approval of
>Jesus. You seem to put a lot of stress on MONON ("only") in John 17:3, but
>note that Jesus calls God hO MONOS QEOS in John 5:44, yet Jesus accepts the
>title QEOS in John 20:28 ff.
>
>Jonathan
>
>Jonathan Robie jwrobie@mindspring>

Gentlemen B-Greek:

About this issues note in 1John 5:20 regard to hOUTOS the point after IHSOU
CRISTWi (GNT SBU 3ed. GNT 27 ed.)This indicates hOUTOS belong to the next
sentence, though is a pronoun of:
hO hUIOS TOU QEOU
KAI DEDWK"EN" hHMIN
TON ALHQINON
TWi hUIWi AUTOU IHSOU CRISTWi

Then in one demonstrative pronoun (hOUTOS)joins, contains, inclose St.John
in all the last nouns and endings, and he says: "This" is the True God and...

Also thinks that St. John wrote hOUTOS not for joining, but was wrote by his
inspiration in the Holy Spirit and feels the presence of his loved friend: Jesus
then he wrote "This is"....(hOUTOS)
Other example that helps is Act 5:31, God exalted him (NIV) or "This" was
exalted.

In English or Spanish the demonstrative pronoun changes to one personal
pronoun to explain the meaning and smoothness the lecture.

Greetings
Braulio Barillas

Braulio Barillas
parakal@quetzal.net