At 2:11 PM -0400 5/30/98, Jim West wrote:
>At 01:02 PM 5/30/98 -0500, Kevin Mullins <kevinm@getaway.net> wrote:
>>
>>I am willing to be swayed on this but you'll have to be more specific.
>>To assert simply "he is wrong" will not be enough to convince me
>>and I hope few others would be convinced by it. Perhaps you could
>>specify some examples of why he is wrong or maybe even cite some other
>>sources that say "he is wrong." I would ask for a similar defence from
>>someone who asserted "Jim is wrong" I promise.
>>
>
>Sorry. He is wrong here because he is talking about attic and applying it
>to Koine. This is apples and oranges.
Yes, and OF COURSE Attic and NT Koine are two VERY different languages! One
of them speaks apples and the other speaks oranges! Is this supposed to be
a serious answer to a question?
>>> Help me here. I know the two are different in certain respects but can
>>we cite sources and specific examples to support your statement.
>>
>
>I recall somemthing being posted to the list just in the last week or so
>which discussed the differences between attic and koine. I am sorry I do
>not have that message- but I suppose someone will have retained it and it
>can be checked rather than endlessly repeated.
The URL was (and still is):
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~jtreat/koine/classical.html
but our question about EI has nothing to do with those differences talked
about there (and the best thing about that summation is that it lists its
sources in an initial bibliography).
BAGD s.v. EI III. "In causal clauses, when an actual case is taken as a
supposition, where we can also use IF instead of SINCE: EI TON CORTON ...
hO QEOS hOUTWS AMFIENNUSIN ..." Mt's Temptation narrative is NOT cited
among the NT instances. It appears to me that this is no distinctive NT
Koine idiom but rather a simple case of a usage of EI for "if" in the sense
of "If, as we all know, it is true that ..." This is not significantly
different from the Classical usage of EI in conditional constructions with
the indicative.
Louw-Nida: 89.30 EIb : a marker of cause or reason on the basis that an
actual case is regarded formally as a supposition - 'since, because.'EI DE
APEQANOMEN SUN CRISTWi, PISTEUOMEN hOTI KAI SUZHSOMEN AUTWi 'and since we
died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him' Ro 6:8; EI
TON CORTON ... hO QEOS hOUTWS AMFIENNUSIN 'and since God clothes thus =8A th=
e
grass of the field' Mt 6:30. In English it is possible to translate EI in
passages such as Ro 6:8 and Mt 6:30 as either 'if' or 'since,' for the
conjunction 'if' may also refer to an actual event as a supposition. In a
number of languages, however, it is impossible to translate 'if God so
clothes the grass of the field,' for this would imply serious doubt as to
whether God actually does perform such an activity. It may therefore be
necessary in such languages to translate quite specifically 'because' or
'since.'
NAS Greek: 1487. EI; a prim. particle; if, whether (a conjunctive particle
used in conditions and in indirect questions):-although*(1), if(345), in
order that*(m)(1), no(m)(1), only*(11), only(1), suppose*(1), though(7),
though*(5), unless*(4), until*(1), whatever*(1), whether(19), whoever*(3).
UBS Dictionary: EI if; whether; that; if only, surely; since; EI TIS, EI
TIwho(ever), what(ever); EIPER since, if it is true that EIGE if indeed
(Accordance is a wonderful tool for putting these items together quickly!).
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
Summer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cconrad@yancey.main.nc.us
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
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At 2:11 PM -0400 5/30/98, Jim West wrote:
>At 01:02 PM 5/30/98 -0500, Kevin Mullins <<kevinm@getaway.net> wrote:
>>
>>I am willing to be swayed on this but you'll have to be more
specific. =20
>>To assert simply "he is wrong" will not be enough to convince me=20
>>and I hope few others would be convinced by it. Perhaps you could=20
>>specify some examples of why he is wrong or maybe even cite some
other=20
>>sources that say "he is wrong." I would ask for a similar defence
from=20
>>someone who asserted "Jim is wrong" I promise.
>>
>
>Sorry. He is wrong here because he is talking about attic and
applying it
>to Koine. This is apples and oranges.
Yes, and OF COURSE Attic and NT Koine are two VERY different languages!
One of them speaks apples and the other speaks oranges! Is this
supposed to be a serious answer to a question?
>>> Help me here. I know the two are different in certain respects but
can=20
>>we cite sources and specific examples to support your statement.
>>
>
>I recall somemthing being posted to the list just in the last week or
so
>which discussed the differences between attic and koine. I am sorry I
do
>not have that message- but I suppose someone will have retained it and
it
>can be checked rather than endlessly repeated.
The URL was (and still is):=20
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~jtreat/koine/classical.html
<color><param>0000,7777,0000</param>but our question about EI has
nothing to do with those differences talked about there (and the best
thing about that summation is that it lists its sources in an initial
bibliography).
BAGD s.v. EI III. "In causal clauses, when an actual case is taken as a
supposition, where we can also use IF instead of SINCE: EI TON CORTON
=2E... hO QEOS hOUTWS AMFIENNUSIN ..." Mt's Temptation narrative is NOT
cited among the NT instances. It appears to me that this is no
distinctive NT Koine idiom but rather a simple case of a usage of EI
for "if" in the sense of "If, as we all know, it is true that ..." This
is not significantly different from the Classical usage of EI in
conditional constructions with the indicative.
Louw-Nida: <bold>89.30 EI</bold>b : a marker of cause or reason on the
basis that an actual case is regarded formally as a supposition -
'since, because.'EI DE APEQANOMEN SUN CRISTWi, PISTEUOMEN hOTI KAI
SUZHSOMEN AUTWi 'and since we died with Christ, we believe that we
shall also live with him' Ro 6:8; EI TON CORTON ... hO QEOS hOUTWS
AMFIENNUSIN 'and since God clothes thus =8A the grass of the field' Mt
6:30. In English it is possible to translate EI in passages such as Ro
6:8 and Mt 6:30 as either 'if' or 'since,' for the conjunction 'if' may
also refer to an actual event as a supposition. In a number of
languages, however, it is impossible to translate 'if God so clothes
the grass of the field,' for this would imply serious doubt as to
whether God actually does perform such an activity. It may therefore be
necessary in such languages to translate quite specifically 'because'
or 'since.'
NAS Greek: <bold>1487. EI</bold>; a prim. particle; <italic>if, whether
</italic>(a conjunctive particle used in conditions and in indirect
questions):-although*(1), if(345), in order that*(m)(1), no(m)(1),
only*(11), only(1), suppose*(1), though(7), though*(5), unless*(4),
until*(1), whatever*(1), whether(19), whoever*(3).
UBS Dictionary: <bold> EI </bold><italic>if; whether; that; if only,
surely; since; </italic>EI TIS, EI TI<italic>who(ever), what(ever);
</italic>EIPER <italic>since, if it is true that </italic>EIGE
<italic>if indeed=20
</italic></color>(Accordance is a wonderful tool for putting these
items together quickly!).=20
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
Summer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cconrad@yancey.main.nc.us
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
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