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b-greek-digest V1 #558
b-greek-digest Friday, 27 January 1995 Volume 01 : Number 558
In this issue:
Re: EKSTASIS, etc.
Dating of Matthew
Philemon
Re: Dating of Matthew
Re: Dating of Matthew
Re: Dating of Matthew
Greek Tapes
Translation of *Basileia*
Re: Greek Tapes
Re: Greek Tapes
Re: Translation of *Basileia*
Re: Dating of Matthew
Re: Greek Tapes
Re: Dating of Matthew
Motivational text
Re: Greek Tapes
Re: Motivational text
Motivational text
Holy Laughter
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 05:24:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: EKSTASIS, etc.
On Thu, 26 Jan 1995 Dvdmoore@aol.com wrote:
> [omitting citation of CWC]
> An excellent study on Luke's treatment of this subject (i.e. charismatic
> phenomena) is Roger Stronstad's _The Charismatic Theology of St. Luke_
> (Hendrickson, 1984). He portrays Luke as more closely tied to the theology
> of the Old Testament and of Christ than to Paul in reference to the
> charismata.
This is interesting and I'll check it out, but I'm wondering how one can
be so sure just what Jesus' "theology ... in reference to charismata"
actually was, in view of the diversity of the gospel witnesses. I think
generally the distinction between what's Palestinian and what's
"Hellenistic" no longer is felt to be meaningful (It's been shown how
deeply Hellenized the Essenes, that most reactionary of Jewish sects,
were--so Hengel indicated); and I would suppose that the culture of
Palestine at the time had been Hellenized to an extent that most
conservative Aramaic-speaking Jews scarcely realized--but I'm getting far
beyond what I'm confident about here. Nevertheless, my impression is that
there is a cultural gulf between the OT (discounting Maccabean-era
apocalyptic segments in Daniel and the like) and the actual beliefs of
Palestinian Jews at the time of Jesus. I realize this is a big question,
of course, and I am foolishly responding off the top of my head. At any
rate, I'll check out your reference. Thanks.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
------------------------------
From: David Last <D.Last@mmu.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:43:33 GMT
Subject: Dating of Matthew
I understand that Carsten Thiede (I hope I have the spelling correct)
has recently announced his discovery of some very early fragments of
Matthew's gospel, in Magdelin College, Oxford. However, I know no
further details since my information comes second-hand, originally
from a report on a religious radio programme (I think). So I'd like
to ask some questions:
(1) Does anyone know further details of the claim?
(2) If you have seen details, how seriously do you think the
claim should be taken? Is the discovery significant for
the dating of Matthew?
David Last
------------------------------
From: Leo Percer <PERCERL@baylor.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 08:10:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Philemon
Jerry:
While you are checking out areas for bibliography on Philemon, you may want
to look at the new Anchor Bible Dictionary series. It was published within
the last four years (if memory serves me) and lists with each entry a
fairly solid bibliography. Some folks feel that the dictionary is rather
biased (aren't they all?), but I have enjoyed using it on other Pauline
books. Check it out!
Regards,
Leo Percer
PERCERL@BAYLOR.EDU
------------------------------
From: George Ramsey <gramsey@cs1.presby.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 09:32:30 -0400 (EST)
Subject: Re: Dating of Matthew
On Fri, 27 Jan 1995, David Last wrote:
> I understand that Carsten Thiede (I hope I have the spelling correct)
> has recently announced his discovery of some very early fragments of
> Matthew's gospel, in Magdelin College, Oxford. However, I know no
> further details since my information comes second-hand, originally
> from a report on a religious radio programme (I think). So I'd like
> to ask some questions:
>
> (1) Does anyone know further details of the claim?
>
My information came from an article in the past Saturday's New
York Times. Thiede's discovery is apparently reported in the most recent
issue of Zeitschrift fuer Papyrologie.
The principal items of interest about the fragment from the
Matthew 26 story of the woman who poured ointment on the head of Jesus
are two:
(1) The writer of the text used uncials (ALL CAPS), a style of
writing which purportedly went out of style after the mid-first century AD.
(2) The writer uses the abbreviation KS (abbrev. of kyrios) to refer
to Jesus; this abbreviation was used by ancient Greeks and early
Christians to refer to God.
The conclusions which might be drawn from this are (a) the gospel
of Matthew was in existence earlier than commonly thought, with all sorts
of implications for both the absolute and relative dating of the NT
gospels, and (b) someone in Jesus's generation was indicating his divinity.
The fragment in question reads (as quoted in NYT):
"She poured it over his hair when he sat at the table. But, when
the disciples saw it, they were indignant...
"KS, aware of this, said to them, Why do you trouble this woman?
She has done...
"Then one of the XII, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the
chief priest and said, What will you give me for my work?"
The two NT scholars quoted in the article were Reginald Fuller
and Paul Achtemeier. F noted that this may mean that the gospel of
Matthew was written by an eyewitness, or someone who had access to an
eyewitness. A was a bit more cautious, observing that a young scribe who
learned the uncial writing style might continue to employ it throughout
his life.
> (2) If you have seen details, how seriously do you think the
> claim should be taken? Is the discovery significant for
> the dating of Matthew?
Since my specialty is OT, I will wait for some NT folks to render
further judgment.
George W. Ramsey
Dept. of Religion
Presbyterian College
Clinton, SC 29325
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 10:30:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Dating of Matthew
On Fri, 27 Jan 1995, George Ramsey wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jan 1995, David Last wrote:
>
> > I understand that Carsten Thiede (I hope I have the spelling correct)
> > has recently announced his discovery of some very early fragments of
> > Matthew's gospel, in Magdelin College, Oxford. However, I know no
> > further details since my information comes second-hand, originally
> > from a report on a religious radio programme (I think). So I'd like
> > to ask some questions:
> >
> > (1) Does anyone know further details of the claim?
> >
> My information came from an article in the past Saturday's New
> York Times. Thiede's discovery is apparently reported in the most recent
> issue of Zeitschrift fuer Papyrologie.
>
> The principal items of interest about the fragment from the
> Matthew 26 story of the woman who poured ointment on the head of Jesus
> are two:
> (1) The writer of the text used uncials (ALL CAPS), a style of
> writing which purportedly went out of style after the mid-first century AD.
> (2) The writer uses the abbreviation KS (abbrev. of kyrios) to refer
> to Jesus; this abbreviation was used by ancient Greeks and early
> Christians to refer to God.
>
> The conclusions which might be drawn from this are (a) the gospel
> of Matthew was in existence earlier than commonly thought, with all sorts
> of implications for both the absolute and relative dating of the NT
> gospels, and (b) someone in Jesus's generation was indicating his divinity.
>
> The fragment in question reads (as quoted in NYT):
>
> "She poured it over his hair when he sat at the table. But, when
> the disciples saw it, they were indignant...
> "KS, aware of this, said to them, Why do you trouble this woman?
> She has done...
> "Then one of the XII, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the
> chief priest and said, What will you give me for my work?"
>
> The two NT scholars quoted in the article were Reginald Fuller
> and Paul Achtemeier. F noted that this may mean that the gospel of
> Matthew was written by an eyewitness, or someone who had access to an
> eyewitness. A was a bit more cautious, observing that a young scribe who
> learned the uncial writing style might continue to employ it throughout
> his life.
>
> > (2) If you have seen details, how seriously do you think the
> > claim should be taken? Is the discovery significant for
> > the dating of Matthew?
>
> Since my specialty is OT, I will wait for some NT folks to render
> further judgment.
I can perhaps add a little bit to George Ramsey's account, as I clipped
the item from Saturday's NYTimes and have it before me.
The text in question is on three papyrus scraps that have been lying for
some time in the library at Magdalen College at Oxford, in the archives
there since 1901,"placed there by a misionary alumnus, Rev. Charles
Huleatt, who unearthed them in the 19th century in Egypt."
One would want to see Thiede's article in the current issue of
Zeitschrift fuer Papyrologie. I haven't checked to see whether our
library's copy of it has come in yet.
I'd think we have to be cautious about this inasmuch as claims and
counter-claims will be made and the dust will not settle very soon.
However, IF the dating of this papyrus fragment at 50 holds up, then it
will certainly radically affect the reigning view of the relationship
between the gospels (the reigning hypothesis, that is, the "two-document
hypothesis" that Mark and Q are primary written sources used by Matthew
and Luke along with distinct separate traditions in the composition of
their gospels. IF this dating is valid, it might lend support to the
Farmer-Griesbach hypothesis of Matthew's priority. But there are a lot of
big IFs involved in all of this, and nothing is going to be resolved
immediately by the first presentation and interpretation of this papyrus.
It seems that a lot is being based upon the confidence that a particular
paleographical style cannot possibly be later than the middle of the
first-century.
What we do have to say, however, is that hypotheses are always subject to
verification by evidence, and evidence may come to light sooner or later
to invalidate any hypothesis. I can recall how skeptical many were of the
decipherment of Linear B as proto-Greek (Cyrus Gordon died, I think,
still believing it was Semitic) back in the fifties, whereas now the
Ventris decipherment has clearly stood the test of time.
Interesting, very interesting ...
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
------------------------------
From: "Larry W. Hurtado" <hurtado@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 10:57:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Dating of Matthew
On Fri, 27 Jan 1995, George Ramsey wrote (in response to a query about C.
Thiede's recent theory about the Magdelin College fragment of Matthew):
>
> (1) The writer of the text used uncials (ALL CAPS), a style of
> writing which purportedly went out of style after the mid-first century AD.
> (2) The writer uses the abbreviation KS (abbrev. of kyrios) to refer
> to Jesus; this abbreviation was used by ancient Greeks and early
> Christians to refer to God.
>
Two clarifications/corrections:
1) "Uncial" Greek writing was used all through Greco-Roman antiquity, and
did NOT cease after the lst century. Thiede's claim is that the
paleographical characteristics of the particular uncial script used in
the manuscript in question indicates a lst century scribal hand. Over the
course of the Greco-Roman period, the particular ways Greek uncial
letters were formed/written sifted, and judgments about particular
centuries are notoriously difficult to reach, with many ancient mss.
being assigned to dates one or two centuries apart by different
paleographers. Thiede's claim has already received a good deal of
scoffing, in part because of the detailed observation necessary to
support it, and in part because the fragment in question is so small, and
in part because it is not so clear to all experts that script-style
shifted in quite the way Thiede's claim asserts. We'll all have to wait
for peer-analysis of his work.
2) The distinctive abbreviation of the word "kyrios" and several other
honorific terms/titles (christos, theos, Iesous) in early Christian
biblical mss. is called the "nomina sacra" (sacred names) phenomenon.
When so abbreviated, Kyrios could designate either God or (the Lord)
Jesus, and most often the latter. I repeat, the nomina sacra type
abbreviations are apparently DISTINCTIVE to early Christian materials,
and the practice was NOT observed by non-Christians ("Greek" or
otherwise).
For a good, short intro to Greek paleography, characteristics of early
biblical Greek mss., and even to the nomina sacra, see B. M. Metzger,
_Manuscripts of the Greek Bible: An Introduction to Palaeography_
(Oxford Univ. Press, 1981).
Cheers. Larry Hurtado, Religion, Univ. of Manitoba
------------------------------
From: Larry Chouinard <fa78935@admin.kcc.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 12:58:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Greek Tapes
I have been in search of a good set of tapes of readings from Hellenistic
Greek selections. I would like my students to hear the language while
they read from various texts. Sometime back I received a notice from
some classicist who has produced audio readings from various texts.
However, I have misplaced the notice.
Any help would be appreciated.
Larry Chouinard
Kentucky Christian College
------------------------------
From: Leroy Huizenga 1996 <huizenga@acc.jc.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 12:41:15 -36000
Subject: Translation of *Basileia*
Just a quick question and I mean not to start a thread...
In class today (Gospel of Mark) it was suggested that *Basileia*,
traditionally translated *Kingdom* might better be translated *Reign*
since *Kingdom* implies spatial locality, and that when Jesus uses
*Basileia* he seems to be talking about something non-spatial -- "My
kingdom is not of this world"; "The Kingdom of God is at hand"; "The
Kingdom of God is among you"; etc... Any ideas?
Leroy Huizenga
Jamestown College
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:15:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Greek Tapes
On Fri, 27 Jan 1995, Larry Chouinard wrote:
> I have been in search of a good set of tapes of readings from Hellenistic
> Greek selections. I would like my students to hear the language while
> they read from various texts. Sometime back I received a notice from
> some classicist who has produced audio readings from various texts.
> However, I have misplaced the notice.
I am curious about this myself; I know of readings from Classical authors
but had not ever heard or read about Koine readings; I'm wondering what
pronunciation is used--Erasmian? or is there any effort to use what we
suppose the first-century pronunciation actually was?
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
------------------------------
From: Larry Chouinard <fa78935@admin.kcc.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:49:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Greek Tapes
I know that S. Zohodiates(sp?) produced a set of tapes of the NT using
modern Greek. I, like you, have never seen anything done using Koine.
Is their a consistency on pronounciation of Koine? It seems to me that
such an effort providing readings of portions from the NT would be
helpful. Even if a classicist were to do such a reading it would beat
the use of modern Greek.
Thanks for your help.
Larry Chouinard
Kentucky Christian College
On Fri, 27 Jan 1995, Carl W Conrad wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jan 1995, Larry Chouinard wrote:
> > I have been in search of a good set of tapes of readings from Hellenistic
> > Greek selections. I would like my students to hear the language while
> > they read from various texts. Sometime back I received a notice from
> > some classicist who has produced audio readings from various texts.
> > However, I have misplaced the notice.
>
> I am curious about this myself; I know of readings from Classical authors
> but had not ever heard or read about Koine readings; I'm wondering what
> pronunciation is used--Erasmian? or is there any effort to use what we
> suppose the first-century pronunciation actually was?
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University
> One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
> (314) 935-4018
> cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
>
>
------------------------------
From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 11:47:07 PST
Subject: Re: Translation of *Basileia*
> Just a quick question and I mean not to start a thread...
> In class today (Gospel of Mark) it was suggested that *Basileia*,
> traditionally translated *Kingdom* might better be translated *Reign*
> since *Kingdom* implies spatial locality, and that when Jesus uses
> *Basileia* he seems to be talking about something non-spatial -- "My
> kingdom is not of this world"; "The Kingdom of God is at hand"; "The
> Kingdom of God is among you"; etc... Any ideas?
>
> Leroy Huizenga
> Jamestown College
This is the usual understanding of Jesus' use of basileia tou theou
and variations. For example, when Jesus tells his disciples to pray
"Your Kingodm come" in Mt 6, this seems to be a reference to a reign,
rather than a realm. However, (and I wish I waa at home to find the
specific reference, though the journal is probably still packed),
an article a couple of years ago I think in _Novum Testamentum_
argued, fairly well, I think, that many of the instances of
this language in the canonical gospels should be taken to refer to
a realm, a physical kingdom yet future, and that, in fact, the majority
of such sayings should be seen this way, if not all. Just something to
think about if you can find the article. The point being there, that
Jesus was not wholly throwing out the understanding his audience had
of kingdom from the Hebrew Bible.
Ken Litwak
Emeryville, CA
------------------------------
From: "BARRY R. SANG" <BSANG@catawba.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:44:28 EST5EDT
Subject: Re: Dating of Matthew
On Jan 27 George Ramsey shared the following (re the Mt. fragment
in Oxford):
> My information came from an article in the past Saturday's New
> York Times. Thiede's discovery is apparently reported in the most recent
> issue of Zeitschrift fuer Papyrologie.
>
> The principal items of interest about the fragment from the
> Matthew 26 story of the woman who poured ointment on the head of Jesus
> are two:
> (1) The writer of the text used uncials (ALL CAPS), a style of
> writing which purportedly went out of style after the mid-first century AD.
> (2) The writer uses the abbreviation KS (abbrev. of kyrios) to refer
> to Jesus; this abbreviation was used by ancient Greeks and early
> Christians to refer to God.
> The conclusions which might be drawn from this are (a) the
gospel
> of Matthew was in existence earlier than commonly thought, with all
sorts > of implications for both the absolute and relative dating of the NT
> gospels, and (b) someone in Jesus's generation was indicating his divinity.
>
> The fragment in question reads (as quoted in NYT):
>
> "She poured it over his hair when he sat at the table. But, when
> the disciples saw it, they were indignant...
> "KS, aware of this, said to them, Why do you trouble this woman?
> She has done...
> "Then one of the XII, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the
> chief priest and said, What will you give me for my work?"
>
> The two NT scholars quoted in the article were Reginald Fuller
> and Paul Achtemeier. F noted that this may mean that the gospel of
> Matthew was written by an eyewitness, or someone who had access to an
> eyewitness. A was a bit more cautious, observing that a young scribe who
> learned the uncial writing style might continue to employ it throughout
> his life.
>
> > (2) If you have seen details, how seriously do you think the
> > claim should be taken? Is the discovery significant for
> > the dating of Matthew?
>
> Since my specialty is OT, I will wait for some NT folks to render
> further judgment.
Some expertise in the dating of uncials is needed here. B. Metzger
(_The Text of the NT_, 9) says that uncials were in use from the
third through sixth centuries, noting a change "...about the
beginning of the ninth century..." So, I am confused by Thiede's (?)
claim that uncials disappeared ca. mid-first century CE. Can anyone
shed further light on this subject?
Barry R. Sang
Catawba College
2300 W. Innes St.
Salisbury, NC 28144
(704) 637-4354
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:40:53 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Greek Tapes
On Fri, 27 Jan 1995, Larry Chouinard wrote:
>
> I know that S. Zohodiates(sp?) produced a set of tapes of the NT using
> modern Greek. I, like you, have never seen anything done using Koine.
> Is their a consistency on pronounciation of Koine? It seems to me that
> such an effort providing readings of portions from the NT would be
> helpful. Even if a classicist were to do such a reading it would beat
> the use of modern Greek.
There are others on this list who could give you a more precise answer to
this question, but my own inclination is to say that 1st-century A.D.
Koine was pronounced much more like modern Greek than like classical
Attic. I'm not really sure whether the consonants had all moved in the
modern direction (beta to vee, delta to voiced TH, gamma to Y, etc.) but
the itacism of vowels (EI, I, H, OI all pronounced "EE") and the
assimilation of E and AI are attested by the spelling of papyri of the
period.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:47:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Dating of Matthew
On Fri, 27 Jan 1995, BARRY R. SANG wrote:
> [omissions]
> Some expertise in the dating of uncials is needed here. B. Metzger
> (_The Text of the NT_, 9) says that uncials were in use from the
> third through sixth centuries, noting a change "...about the
- -> beginning of the ninth century..." So, I am confused by Thiede's (?)
> claim that uncials disappeared ca. mid-first century CE. Can anyone
> shed further light on this subject?
Perhaps you had not yet seen Larry Hurtado's comment on this topic yet;
it is not just Uncials that are involved (they did indeed continue in use
for several centuries) but a PARTICULAR STYLE of uncials that Thiede
claims were not used after the middle of the first century. This, I
think, will be the chief bone of contention.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
------------------------------
From: SWAECHTER@utmem1.utmem.edu
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 15:17:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Motivational text
I'd like your recommendations/suggestions for a textbook. I have a seminary
class of 22 budding young grammarians/theologues, who have just about completed
Bill Mounce's beginning grammar. I'm planning to spend the final eight weeks
in reading selected passages. But I'd also like to put a good "motivational"
textbook on their required reading list.
I'm convinced that what most beginning Greek students need is a vision, if you
will, for how the ability to read/interpret the *Greek* text is important and
profitable for the pulpit ministry, which, in my setting, is where most of
these guys are headed. So, I'd like to know what book any of you might
recommend that would encourage, motivate, and/or inspire the student to keep
his Greek studies fresh so that he might use Greek in ministry.
Thanks in advance for your recommendations and thoughts. If you'll reply to me
directly, I'll gladly summarize the replies and post a single message to
b-greek.
Steve Waechter
Instructor in New Testament and Greek
Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary
swaechter@utmem1.utmem.edu
------------------------------
From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 14:11:58 PST
Subject: Re: Greek Tapes
This may be a myth foisted upon me, but my understanding about
pronunciatin is that we use the pronunciation for NT Greek given by
Erasmus, and it is unknown whether Erasmus was serious or joking. Please
feel free to correct this view if it's wrong. I have nothing invested
in it, other than that it's a bit humorous if true.
Ken Litwak
Emeryville, CA
------------------------------
From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 14:38:32 PST
Subject: Re: Motivational text
Rats. Where's my Great Christian Books catalog when I need it? There
are at least two books I know of that might address your question.
One I think is called _The Preacher and His Greek NT_ or something
like that. I bet if you look in a GCBor CBD catalog, you'll see it.
I'll try to find the right names tonight.
Ken Litwak
Emeryville, CA
> I'd like your recommendations/suggestions for a textbook. I have a seminary
> class of 22 budding young grammarians/theologues, who have just about completed
> Bill Mounce's beginning grammar. I'm planning to spend the final eight weeks
> in reading selected passages. But I'd also like to put a good "motivational"
> textbook on their required reading list.
>
> I'm convinced that what most beginning Greek students need is a vision, if you
> will, for how the ability to read/interpret the *Greek* text is important and
> profitable for the pulpit ministry, which, in my setting, is where most of
> these guys are headed. So, I'd like to know what book any of you might
> recommend that would encourage, motivate, and/or inspire the student to keep
> his Greek studies fresh so that he might use Greek in ministry.
>
> Thanks in advance for your recommendations and thoughts. If you'll reply to me
> directly, I'll gladly summarize the replies and post a single message to
> b-greek.
>
> Steve Waechter
> Instructor in New Testament and Greek
> Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary
> swaechter@utmem1.utmem.edu
>
------------------------------
From: Bill Mounce <starsoft@comtch.iea.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 15:02:08 -0700
Subject: Motivational text
Zondervan will be publishing my Graded Reader of Biblical Greek probably in
about a year. It is 18 NT passages, 1 from the LXX, and 1 from the Didache,
from easier to harder, with notes, hints, exegetical insights, sermon
outlines, etc. The best way to motivate students is to have them read the
text, and as a teacher remove some of the stumbling blocks early one -- at
least that is how it seems to me.
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Bill Mounce
starsoft@comtch.iea.com
also mounce@macsbbs.spk.wa.us
AOL: Mounce
CIS: 71540,2140
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
------------------------------
From: Allenkemp@aol.com
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 18:41:35 -0500
Subject: Holy Laughter
Dear Brothers and sisters, some asked before re. the laughter movement.
Below is a useful article I picked up out of Morningstar's electronic
newsletter. Not very scholarly re. greek but insightful. Good example of the
excesses of the movement. PS Don't fall for failing to let the joy of the
Lord be your strength.
Commentary
Commentary
HOLY LAUGHTER OR WHOLLY ERROR?
By Joseph A. Nigro
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are from
God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1)
I had heard a lot about the new movement that is sweeping Christianity, the
"holy laughter revival." I read some articles about it, both pro and con, and
I discussed it with people who had experienced it. However, I could not make
a verdict about it without having an encounter with the movement. I chose to
go to a revival with the originator of the movement, Rodney Howard Browne,
who likes to call himself "The Holy Ghost Bartender." What I experienced was
Biblical, but not in the way that most people would want to hear.
First, let me preface this with the fact that there are brothers and sisters
in Christ whom I love dearly that are in this movement. I hold these dear
brothers and sisters in the highest regard, and this article is not against
them personally, but rather a examination of the holy laughter movement in
light of the Bible.
"Babylon will be a heap of ruins, a haunt of jackals, an object of horror and
scorn, a place where no one lives. Her people all roar like young lions, they
growl like lion cubs. But while they are aroused, I will set out a feast for
them and make them drunk, so that they shout with laughter - then sleep
forever and not awake, declares the Lord. I will bring them down like lambs
to the slaughter, like rams and goats." (Jeremiah 51:37-40)
I had gone to the meeting with some anticipation that God had possibly
started a new movement bringing a new found joy to the churches. I was
prepared for the blessing, but I also was prepared for the possibility of a
counterfeit teaching. I walked into a very large packed church that was
jamming with music. The music was incredibly good, and quite a few people
were dancing. I noticed a good feeling inside.
After a few more songs, some people broke into a hysterical laugh. As the
meeting kept on going, people all over the church were laughing, some for
hours on end. Members of the choir were actually rolling on the floor
laughing. People were rolling around or just lying on the ground either
crying or laughing. Literally several hundred people would just be laughing
at the same time, some for 5 minutes, some for up to 3 hours! Some women
danced sensually around the church while one man massaged the wall with the
front of his body!
What was amazing was that the speaker didn't really say too much except that
he had the new wine of the Holy Spirit to share with others so that they
could get drunk with him. That's about all Rodney said over and over, in
various ways, in song mostly, but the same message. Rodney criticized those
who did not agree with his message, saying that if you don't believe the
laughter is from God, you are a mausoleum! And yet I had this warm, feel good
spirit inside of me ... this must have been of God.
Before I ever stepped into the meeting, I was prayed up with my wife, Andrea,
to discern anything not of God. The crying and laughing and shaking were so
ultra hysterical that I immediately thought that this was of the flesh, yet I
still had a good feeling inside. So as the meeting progressed, I prayed for
God to show me ... why the good feeling? What God revealed to me was one of
enormous dimensions.
I Timothy 4:1 tells us, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the
latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing
spirits, and doctrines of devils." It hit me so hard that I almost fell over,
the good feeling was a seducing spirit ... a literal spirit of a good feeling
from a demon! My spirit liked the feeling, but that's because my spirit was
being seduced (captivated, delighted, enticed), and it felt almost sensual.
That explained all the laughter and sensual dancing, and crying, along with
barking and roaring! This holy laughter revival is a movement of demons
coming as angels of light to seduce Christians in these end times.
"Although God is interested in our bodies as well as our souls, His sphere of
involvement with a Christian is primarily "in the spirit." God is a Spirit,
and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and in truth. On the other
hand, demons interact with people in the flesh - that is, in the physical
body, and in the mental realm (emotions, desires, feelings). They give bodily
sensations (shivers, shakes, heat, tingles, weakness, energy, etc.) and
mental feelings (overwhelming burdens, or intoxicating sensations of joy,
revelations, strong desires, impulses to do irrational things, etc.). The
majority of people who experience "holy laughter" say the result is a feeling
of intense love. Because they are Christians, their love is directed at
Jesus. However, this does not prove that the feelings of love are sent from
God." (1)
Rodney sang the same song for almost an hour, but when He came to the altar
call, he adamantly and repeatedly commanded, "hurry, hurry." Yet a message
was never given at all, so what were these people responding to? Some of the
"backsliders" who responded were laughing and dancing just a few minutes
earlier, yet they now waltzed down an aisle to respond to an altar call.
When the "sinners" came up to the altar, they were NEVER told to repent of
their sins. They were just told that they were a child of the King.
When God's Holy Spirit comes in power, He calls sinners to repentance. He
convicts of sin, He reminds of judgement, and He gives assurance of
righteousness only to be found in the Savior, the Lord Jesus (John 16:8).
Unless you're willing to come to God as a sinner, asking for God's
forgiveness, you don't have a relationship with Him. So what type of alter
call was being issued? There was never a real serious moment, because as the
altar call was given, people were laughing hysterically. As they prayed the
prayer, and sang worship songs, people were laughing uncontrollably. Later,
when a video was shown of Rodney pretending he was drunk in the Spirit, the
place went wild.
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge ..." (Hosea 4:6). I really can'
t tell you where the Word of God was in all of this because it sure wasn't in
the meeting. When you go to a church, or a revival, or a teaching, there is
NOTHING that is more important than the teaching of the Word of God. Yes, I
give high priority to musical worship, but God tells us that it's the opening
and teaching of His Word that He blesses.
The Scriptures tell us in Hebrews 4:12, "For the Word of God is living and
active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the
division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the
thoughts and intentions of the heart." God's word shares the very attributes
of God Himself. It is living and full of activity and power. God Himself is
telling us that He is active and so is His judgement. He tells us that His
Word is a sharp sword that goes into man's most inner being and judges the
thoughts and intentions of the heart.
But whenever the word was "attempted" to be preached, the people would laugh
even harder. This quote is from a meeting led by Rodney Howard-Browne: "One
night I was preaching on hell, and laughter just hit the whole place. The
more I told people what hell was like, the more they laughed" (Charisma,
August 1994).
Of course there is no preaching of God's Word, because demons are mockers of
God's Word, and they don't want to hear it!
Answer me these questions Church: "How can you laugh frivolously when you
know that millions of people are dying and going to hell?" "How can you laugh
when over 4000 babies are being aborted in American daily?" "How can you
laugh when thousands of children are dying daily because of starvation?" The
only way you can laugh frivolously is when you are seduced by a demonic
spirit!
I'm not against joy or laughter. But the joy of knowing Christ, the joy of
salvation, and seeing others come to a saving knowledge of God is truly a joy
inexpressible. Yet, I also identify with the Man of Sorrows, Jesus, because I
hurt for those who are dying from starvation, or are being massacred in a
war. I weep for those who are going to hell, and march against babies being
aborted.
Most Scripture references to laughter are nearly all adverse, and has to do
with mocking and derision. There is no biblical "gift" of a spirit of
laughter. Christian joy is an inward peace and assurance, not an hysterical
outburst of laughter. The Bible tells us that the fruit of the Spirit is
"self-control" and commands: "Let all things be done decently and in order."
(1 Corinthians 14:40).
I ask and exhort my brothers and sisters in Christ to truly test the spirits.
Learn to distinguish the difference between the presence of the Holy Spirit,
as opposed to the presence of seducing spirits. Choose to build your life on
the Word of God and not on an experience or good feeling. Once Jesus ALONE
becomes our foundation, we don't need a "experience" to draw closer to Him.
Spend quality time in the Word of God and let His Word cleanse you. May God
open your eyes to His Spirit, His Love, and His Peace as you seek Him with
all your heart, and you find your Joy in Him alone. "For the time will come
when men will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they
heap to themselves teacher, having itching ears; And they shall turn away
their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." (2 Timothy
4:3-4)
[1] "The Toronto Phenomenon/Laughing in the Spirit: Is it of God? How can
Christians Decide?", Tricia Tillin, Banner Ministries/UK
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End of b-greek-digest V1 #558
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