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b-greek-digest V1 #628
b-greek-digest Friday, 24 March 1995 Volume 01 : Number 628
In this issue:
Re: Adivice sought on refreshing inter. - adv. grammar
[none]
Advanced Grammars
Re: Adivice sought on refreshing inter. - adv. grammar
Re: Faith of Christ.
Greek
Re: pistis jesou
Re: Greek
Litwak's request re: grammar
studying greek
Paul and "grammata" (Acts 26:24)
Re: Litwak's request re: grammar
Transparent Language
PISTIS IHSOU
Re: Litwak's request re: grammar
Re: Paul and "grammata" (Acts 26:24)
Re: Transparent Language
Bloomquist's recommendation of Colwell-Wikgren
Re: Transparent Language
Re: Litwak's request re: grammar
Canon
Re: Canon
Re: Litwak's request re: grammar
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "James D. Ernest" <ernest@mv.mv.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 07:45:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Adivice sought on refreshing inter. - adv. grammar
If you want to make the Greek language useful to you outside of
working with the NT texts alone, forget the grammars and read
some Greek. I'm presuming you've got a pretty good start on
vocabulary. If not, memorize one of the vocabulary books or
card sets. One way to get reading practice without spending
all your time flipping pages in LSJ is to use bilingual editions
of Greek texts: cover the English (or French, or whatever),
try to figure out the sentence, then after you've given it your
best shot peek at the translation. If you read French fairly
easily, just pick one of the 400 volumes of the Sources Chretiennes.
If you prefer English, you could do worse than just picking up
Thomson's edition of Athanasius, Contra Gentes and De Incarnatione,
which has a good English trans. on facing pages. Athanasius's
Greek would stretch you beyond NT but is clear, fluent, and un-
ostentatious compared to some other Christian writers who were
given to a bit more stylistic showing off. I'd start with DI.
Or get the Loeb Apostolic Fathers if you want something earlier
and (for many of the works included) easier.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
James D. Ernest Joint Doctoral Program
Manchester, New Hampshire, USA Andover-Newton/Boston College
Internet: ernest@mv.mv.com Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts
------------------------------
From: "Dr. Robert M. Shurden" <shurden@cncacc.cn.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 11:05:15 -0500
Subject: [none]
Subscribe nt-greek robert shurden
------------------------------
From: David Moore <Dvdmoore@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 08:18:36 -0800
Subject: Advanced Grammars
Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com> wrote:
> I'd like to ask for some advice of list members. I'm starting
>doctoral studies next Fall. One of the first classes I'm taking is
>Adv. Greek. I'm skipping the Int. class because its first semester
>is Luke-Acts and second semester is Paul/Hebrews, adn I've already
>translated a large chunk of Acts, half of Romans, most of 1 Cor.,
>all of Col, Phil. Thess., all of Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, 1-3 John,
>etc. (or as they say in modern parlance, been there, done that). The
>adv. class focuses on patristic Greek, which I havcen't done really.
>What I want advice on is this. I had three years of NT Greek in
college,
>but that was "a long time ago, in a college far, far away", and while
the
>basic stuff is no problem, I'm sure my intermediate to adv. grammar
>knowledge could use some brushing up. I already own Data and Mantey,
>the _Idiom_ books by Moule and Porter, BDF and A.T. Robertson. I'm
>looking for a suggestion as to which of these, or something else, would
>make a goo dbook for refreshing and filling in any missing pieces of
>int.or adv. grammar knowledge. If you want a distinction, if it's in
>Machen, I don't need to review that (except perhaps some mi verb
>paradigms). One other point is that I don't want something
>that's going to take too long, as I need to focus on prepping
>for the German exam over the Summer. I'm ready now but they
>won't let me take it until I register. Sigh. Thanks in advance.
Kenneth,
I notice that you didn't include Moulton's four-volume grammar
in your list. It's not as up-to-date as BDF, but it does go into more
detail than--and is not as cryptic as--the latter without being as
verbose and repetitive as Robertson. It is organized in a manner that's
easy to work with: Vol. I, Prolegomena; Vol. II Accidence and Word
Formation (including a helpful section on phonology); Vol. III Syntax;
and Vol. IV Style. Whether this would be helpful in preparing you to
work with patristic Greek is another question, but you might want to
check it out.
Regards,
David Moore
------------------------------
From: Micheal Palmer <mpalmes@email.unc.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 12:16:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Adivice sought on refreshing inter. - adv. grammar
Kenneth:
I would like to add my whole-hearted support to James Ernest's suggestion
that the best way to review is the read Greek rather than reading the
grammars. As you read you will encounter constructions which give you
problems. You can then consult the grammars on these.
Using a bilingual text, as James suggested, is an excellent way to both
build vocabulary and review grammar at the same time.
Micheal W. Palmer
Mellon Research Fellow
Department of Linguistics
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
------------------------------
From: Micheal Palmer <mpalmes@email.unc.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 13:10:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Faith of Christ.
Taking up the question of PISTIS IHSOU once again, I would like to point
out that the construction is ambiguous in an important respect. IHSOU can
be interpreted as either genitive or dative. The name IHSOUS had an
incomplete paradigm with no separate dative form:
IHSOUS Nominative
IHSOU Genitive AND Dative
IHSOUN Accusative
Unless the word CRISTOU is included, it is often not possible to determine
whether an author intended IHSOU as genitive or dative. A dative reading
would allow the translation "faith IN Jesus". My earlier arguments
against the possibility of taking IHSOU as an objective genitive with
PISTIS would obviously not apply in this case.
Micheal W. Palmer
Mellon Research Fellow
Department of Linguistics
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 13:25:52 -0500
Subject: Greek
Kenneth
Reading Greek is the best way to review and increase proficiency in Greek. I
wonder if someone like Transparent Language might be working on producing
readings in Greek in Hypertext or hypercard format that would enable students
to concentrate on and struggle with the Greek text a bit before clicking on
the word to get both lexical and syntactic help? I would hope so. I have
found the Transparent Language programs helpful in both Latin and German.
Jeff
re: pistis IESOU CRISTOU
I did not intend to leave the impression that just because the genitive could
be objective that it was, but that the context of several Pauline passages
and Gal. 3:22 itself seems to me to demand the objective genitive. I love
the theology of Christ's faithfulness being the foundation of my relationship
with God, but theology comes after exegesis not before.
charis,
Carlton
------------------------------
From: Micheal Palmer <mpalmes@email.unc.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 14:16:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: pistis jesou
On Wed, 22 Mar 1995, Kenneth Litwak wrote:
> Michael Palmer wrote:
>
> Snipping
>
> > Having said this, let me add that I think it is quite clear that Paul did
> > teach that salvation comes through faith IN Jesus. For example, he says
> > in Galatians 2:16
> >
> > KAI HMEIS EIS CRISTON IHSOUN EPISTEUSAMEN
> > and we have believed in Christ Jesus
> >
> > in order that we might be justified EK PISTEWS XRISTOU [by Christ's
> > faithfullness] and not EX ERGWN NOMOU [by works of Law].
>
> So, by the same logic, and to maintain symmetry in the passage, we
> should argue that nomou is a subjective genitive. We are not saved by
> the works the Law performs.
Well, you are creating an argument for me here that I didn't make. I
didn't even mention NOMOU, and if I had I would not have said what you
claim my comments imply. there is no reason to expect "symmetry in the
passage". There is no reason to read NOMOU as subjective.
> . . . The comment about Luther is incorrect,
> as the early Fathers to a man (woman?) when discussing this
> particular phrase took it as objective. So you are saying that their
> knowledge of Greek and what one can and should do with a genitive noun
> is less than ours? Furthermore, what makes the subjective genitive
> any LESS theologically or ideologically motivated than the objective?
> Either is possible grammatically. Period.
Of course I'm not proposing that their knowledge of or command of Greek
was less that ours. I didn't say that. What I did say is that they based
their (CORRECT) reading of Paul's theology as demanding faith IN Christ on
other statements in the same passages where we find PISTIS IHSOU CRISTOU.
In the same passage where we find Paul arguing for salvation on the basis
of the faithfulness of Christ (PISTIS CRISTOU) we also find him arguing
for salvation on the basis of faith IN Christ (HMEIS EIS CRISTON IHSOUN
EPISTEUSAMEN). The two are not incompatible.
Regarding the possibility of a noun having either a subjective or an
objective genitive, for reasons which I outlined in my earlier note, it's
not true that "Either is possible grammatically. Period." Either is
possible for SOME nouns, but not for all. There are many nouns which
simply do not allow an objective genitive.
Later in my note I wrote:
>
> > That is: we believed/trusted in Christ Jesus, and the result is that HIS
> > FAITHFULNESS, NOT OUR WORKS OF LAW will justify us.
> >
> > Whether or not you accept my (and Hays') reading of EK PISTEWS CRISTOU,
> > it is clear that Paul sees our believing IN Christ as an essential part
> > of the equation.
And you responded:
> NO, your reading says that's not the case. We don't need faith because
> Jesus' faithfulness does it all.
I find this baffling. I never at any point said that Jesus' faithfulness
does it all. In fact I stated that Paul saw our faith IN Christ as an
essential part of the equation as the following section of my original
note makes clear:
I wrote:
> Whether or not you accept my (and Hays') reading of EK PISTEWS CRISTOU,
> it is clear that Paul sees our believing IN Christ as an essential part
> of the equation.
I also wrote:
> . . . I accept the notion that
> Paul taught that salvation comes by faith IN Christ. . .
How could you accuse me of arguing that Christ's faith does it all in
light of these statements?
Later I explained (partially) my view of the patristic evidence. You
responded:
> Huh? The early Fathers undestood the disputed passages as objective
> genitives and built their theology upon that. You seem to be saying
> that their theology forced a grammatically incorrect structure on these
> passages. If they never suggested a subjective genitive sense,
> how can it not follow that they thought an objective genitive with
> pistis was grammatically proper? That sounds completely circular and
> ad hominem to me.
The early Fathers did build their theology on Paul's statements that
salvation comes through faith IN Christ, but that does not mean that
they understood PISTIS IHSOU CRISTOU as involving an objective genitive.
Their theology is based on statements which clearly make Paul's point
that salvation comes through faith IN Christ, not on a grammatical
analysis of PISTIS IHSOU CHRISTOU. Paul clearly does argue that faith IN
Christ is necessary.
HMEIS EIS CRISTON IHSOUN EPISTEUSAMEN (Galatians 2:16)
We have believed/trusted in Christ Jesus (No objective genitive needed)
In Romans 3:22 Paul argues that the righteousness of God DIA PISTEWS IHSOU
CRISTOU [I'll leave it untranslated since the meaning is the focus of our
debate] is for all who believe/have faith/trust (EIS PANTAS TOUS
PISTEUONTAS). Clearly he sees our faith as necessary.
If Paul intended DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU to mean "through faith in
Jesus Christ," then his argument is redundant (as most translations make
it): "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who
have faith." It seems more natural to me to read DIA PISTEWS IHSOU
CRISTOU as "through Jesus Christ's faithfulness." Then Paul is saying TWO
things: 1) the righteousness of God is available because of Christ's
faithfulness (DIA PISTEWS IHSOU CRISTOU), and 2) this righteousness comes
to us through our faith in him (EIS PANTAS TOUS PISTEUONTAS).
Let me emphasize once again that I agree with you that Paul taught a
theology which requires faith IN Christ--AND that the early Fathers
correctly understood him to be making this point in the passages we are
discussing. I just don't think it's necessary to claim that they read PISTIS
IHSOU CHRISTOU as involving an objective genitive.
Micheal W. Palmer
Mellon Research Fellow
Department of Linguistics
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
------------------------------
From: Micheal Palmer <mpalmes@email.unc.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 14:40:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Greek
On Thu, 23 Mar 1995 WINBROW@aol.com wrote:
> I did not intend to leave the impression that just because the genitive could
> be objective that it was, but that the context of several Pauline passages
> and Gal. 3:22 itself seems to me to demand the objective genitive. I love
> the theology of Christ's faithfulness being the foundation of my relationship
> with God, but theology comes after exegesis not before.
After rereading my original response to Dr. Winbery's first note on
PISTIS IHSOU CRISTOU I decided I owed him an appology for the rather
sharp and flippant tone of my opening paragraph. I didn't intend for it
to sound that way, but sometimes when writing near midnight I get a
little careless.
I appologize for the tone, and for reading into your argument what you
point out above. I have a great deal of respect for you as an exegete and
as a teacher of Greek. Earlier today I recommended your _Syntax of New
Testament Greek_ as a good book for reviewing Greek syntax for that reason.
Micheal W. Palmer
Mellon Research Fellow
Department of Linguistics
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
------------------------------
From: Edward Hobbs <EHOBBS@wellesley.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 15:28:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Litwak's request re: grammar
To Ken Litwak, and all who responded to his request for advice in
preparing for a course in reading of Patristics texts in Greek:
(1) My advice is based on the fact that I created this course,
and only I taught it for quite a few years, before I came to
Harvard and Wellesley in 1981. (I was also the first Greek
examiner for the Ph.D. program at the GTU, and remained chief
examiner until I left; and only I taught a full Greek program
there, from the intensive six-week summer course through the most
advanced Greek courses.)
(2) I disagree thoroughly with the advice of some (including
Micheal Palmer, for whom I have the highest respect), who say
that the best way to prepare for this reading course is to read
lots of N.T. (or other) Greek texts, with a pony at hand. First,
because you are heading for a reading course -- there you will
actually do the reading of Greek texts. Second, because my
experience (teaching Greek since the fall of 1947, almost 48
years -- at Chicago, Berkeley, finally Harvard and Wellesley) is
that the best way NOT to learn Greek is to use a pony. People
who use ponies learn to "translate" Greek in the same way that
the translators did; they never learn to READ Greek, to
UNDERSTAND the text in any different way than the translators
did. I am even opposed to having students learn Greek by giving
(a single) translation of the text; the main reason for studying
Greek is to see how DIFFERENTLY the Greek writer understood
things than an English-speaking writer would. Have them give at
least TWO alternative translations into English, or EXPLAIN what
the text means. READING A PONY DECEIVES ONE INTO THINKING ONE
UNDERSTANDS THE TEXT; ONE ONLY LEARNS WHAT A TRANSLATOR THOUGHT.
(3) David Moore gave some good advice: The four volumes in the
Moulton series (begun before World War I, but continuing till
more recent times) are very useful, though the first volume, and
to some extent the second, are not a lot more up-to-date than the
Robertson "monument" ["monument to what?" Colwell used to ask].
And despite Turner's biases (many!), it is a useful set to work
with. I also recommend, with hesitation, the Blass-Debrunner
(not Funk--the only changes Funk made are for the worse; I still
use only my old German copy, now fifty years old); recommend,
because it really deals with the CHANGES in Hellenistic Greek
from Attic; hesitation, because it is so "episodic" and to some
extent random, and also because it assumes one was first trained
in Classic Greek (as I was, and as Debrunner's students all
were).
The Dana-Mantey (which I used my first year of teaching!) is
laid out beautifully, just the right format and size and
typography; it is also dreadful, by including balderdash as
though it were grammar (e.g., "causal eis"--a pseudo-scientific
effort to justify Southern Baptist theological exegesis!).
We are in bad shape with grammars. We really NEED the new
Blass-Debrunner! Desperately!
Edward Hobbs
------------------------------
From: perry.stepp@chrysalis.org
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 95 13:36:57
Subject: studying greek
Regarding the question of how to hone one's Greek in individual study--
The method we use at Baylor in our Ph.D. seminars is very good and very
appropriate for individual study. We take a series of grammars, usually
centering on Moulton-Howard-Turner Vol. III, Blass-Debrunner-Funk, and A.
T. Robertson, and work our way through all the references to passages from
a particular book (e.g. Acts, Matthew.)
To the above list of grammars, I add Zerwick's *Biblical Greek*, Moule's
*Idiom Book*, and Brooks & Winbery.
The best way to do this is one paragraph/pericope at a time. Translate
the passage provisionally, parse verbs, chase rabbits, etc. until you
think you have a handle on the thing. Then find all the references in
the scripture indices of the grammars you're using, and look them up
and decipher them and note them in your exegesis of the passage.
This is a great method for learning syntax, as well as for increasing
one's familiarity with a particular passage from the Greek NT.
PLStepp
perry.stepp@chrysalis.org
perry_stepp@baylor.edu
BTW, Timothy Owings has compiled and published an index of all the
scripture references in the above grammars. I believe it's published
by Baker.
------------------------------
From: Greg Doudna <gdoudna@ednet1.osl.or.gov>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 13:06:27 -0800
Subject: Paul and "grammata" (Acts 26:24)
In Acts 26:24, is "grammata" (as in "your many letters turn you
to madness") a reference by Festus to Paul's education, or to
literary activity?
Greg Doudna
gdoudna@ednet1.osl.or.gov
- --
------------------------------
From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 95 13:47:00 PST
Subject: Re: Litwak's request re: grammar
I've done a fair amount of this privately, but just so I don't miss
anyone, I want to thank everyone for the suggestions I've received.
As I've expressed to a couple of people privately, my aim in making the
request was for guidance to be sure my NT Greek knowledge had no holes
before moving outside the NT. I would hope and expect the prof teaching
the course to be able to give guidance on the patristic Greek once
I'm actually trying to read it. Thanks again to all.
Ken Litwak
Emeryville, CA
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:03:30 -0500
Subject: Transparent Language
For those who want to look into Transparent Language for German (French,
Italian, Latin).
Transparent Language
22 Proctor Hill Road, PO Box 575
Hollis, NH 03049
1-800-752-1767
Internet 70541,3626@compuserve.com
This helps most for those who have studied the grammar and need to improve
reading speed. This is not theological German, but there are several books
for that and you can also find help in reading in the Gute Nachricht.
Carlton
------------------------------
From: Stephen Carlson <scc@reston.icl.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 95 17:16:24 EST
Subject: PISTIS IHSOU
Does it make a difference whether PISTIS is arthrous or anarthrous?
Consider, for example, Gal 2:16 [DIA PISTEWS IHSOU XRISTOU] with Gal
3:26 [DIA THS PISTEWS EN XRISTWi IHSOU]. It seems that whenever there
is an arthrous use of PISTIS which could disambiguate a subjective (or
even possessive) genitive from an objective genitive, Paul switches to
using EN. I also put Col 1:4 [THN PISTIN U(MWN EN XRISTWi IHSOU] and
even Eph 1:15 [THN ... PISTIN EN KURIWi IHSOU] in this category.
I do note that Jas 2:1 and Rev 14:2 show an arthrous PISTIS with a
genitive, but the meaning of PISTIN is distinct from Paul's.
Stephen Carlson
- --
Stephen Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations, : ICL, Inc.
scc@reston.icl.com : and songs chant the words. : 11490 Commerce Park Dr.
(703) 648-3330 : Shujing 2:35 : Reston, VA 22091 USA
------------------------------
From: Gregory Bloomquist <GBLOOMQUIST@spu.stpaul.uottawa.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:45:52 EDT
Subject: Re: Litwak's request re: grammar
I am unsure whether this has been suggested yet -- if so I apologise
- --, but I find that the readings selected by Wikgren et al. in
_Hellenistic Greek Texts_ to be a marvelous compilation of texts of
differing degrees of difficulty from across the Hellenistic board.
There is a handy vocabulary list in the back that allows you to make
a quick check for a word but that "begs for more" (i.e., makes you
want to go to the lexica). Ken may find this to be of real help.
Any detractors? (If so, I would love to know, since I regularly use
this text for my upper-level students.)
Greetings!
L. GREGORY BLOOMQUIST
Faculty of Theology | Faculte de Theologie
Saint Paul University | Universite Saint-Paul
(University of Ottawa | Universite d'Ottawa)
223 Main, Ottawa, Ontario, K1S 1C4 CANADA
Email: GBLOOMQUIST@SPU.STPAUL.UOTTAWA.CA
Voice: 613-236-1393 (messages) / 613-782-3027 (direct)
Fax: 613-236-4108
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:04:09 -0600 (GMT-0600)
Subject: Re: Paul and "grammata" (Acts 26:24)
On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Greg Doudna wrote:
> In Acts 26:24, is "grammata" (as in "your many letters turn you
> to madness") a reference by Festus to Paul's education, or to
> literary activity?
More likely, I think, his education, in terms of the normal usage of the
plural GRAMMATA = Latin LITTERAE. I don't think it is very commonly used
of literary composition, which goes with the cognate group, SUGGRAPHEIN,
SUGGRAPHEUS, etc.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
------------------------------
From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 95 15:09:33 PST
Subject: Re: Transparent Language
In addition to reading material, there are language tutorials for
French, German and I think Russian. I have been using the German one
to supplement the yucko German reading textbook my class is using
(Jannach) and find it very helpful, not least because the lessons
themselves are in German.
Ken Litwak
Emeryville, CA
------------------------------
From: Edward Hobbs <EHOBBS@wellesley.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 18:48:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Bloomquist's recommendation of Colwell-Wikgren
I heartily second Gregory Bloomquist's recommendation of the _Hellenistic
Greek Texts_ by Colwell and Wikgren (or the other way around); I should
have thought of it myself, since Colwell and Wikgren were among my teachers
in textual criticism, and since my roommate Erroll Rhodes did a lot of
the drudge-work for the book. I haven't seen a recent printing of it;
I hope it at last has been re-set with a good Greek typeface, for the
original was done with a Greek typewriter!
The selections are good, and everything Bloomquist says about it is
true. Get it and read it!
Edward Hobbs
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 20:18:16 -0600 (GMT-0600)
Subject: Re: Transparent Language
The Latin version is pretty good, I must say, and they've incorporated
quite a number of texts. I think the program has probably even improved
since the version of the program that I acquired a couple years ago; I'm
sure an upgrade has been issued.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
------------------------------
From: "James D. Ernest" <ernest@mv.mv.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 21:42:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Litwak's request re: grammar
Maybe this moves past the original question, but it touches on things
said in some of the responses.
I certainly defer to those who have more experience teaching the
language than my four instructive but brief years of teaching
seminarians. And it is certainly also true that using translations
can be a dangerous practice.
In my own process of learning Greek, which I do not by any means
consider to be complete after a mere 17 years, I spent plenty of time
both minutely studying particular points in just about every NT
grammar commonly available, plus Smyth, and also plenty of time
sitting alone or in a class with LSJ slogging my way through various
"classical" and patristic authors. And yes, I have occasionally, when
reading material that was difficult for me, worked as long as I could
bear on a hard passage, then read a translation, then looked back at
the text. My moral inhibitions didn't allow me to do this when I was
reading assignments for Greek classes, but I confess to having done it
here and there on my own time.
It does not seem odd to me that a person for whom the NT texts are
Scripture (as they are for me) would want to spend countless hours
looking up particular NT verses in all the available reference
grammars or even counting all the instances of peri plus the genitive
in Pauline purpose clauses. I do not believe, however, that if you do
so 10 hours a day for a decade you will be very good at reading
Greek--even NT Greek--when you are done. Who would dream of trying to
learn French or German that way? There's no substitute for extended
reading in diverse texts. Those who don't have the time or ability to
do so should not be made to feel guilty; but those who train NT
scholars without insisting that they do so cheat them. Better to
encourage them to spend a certain number of summer hours sitting under
a tree or on a beach with Plato or Musonius Rufus--even if they don't
want to risk getting sand or sap on LSJ and so take along an English
translation instead. Of course it should be a good translation and
it should be used intelligently, critically, and with self-control.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
James D. Ernest Joint Doctoral Program
Manchester, New Hampshire, USA Andover-Newton/Boston College
Internet: ernest@mv.mv.com Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts
------------------------------
From: Melanchthon <huizenga@acc.jc.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 22:23:19 -36000
Subject: Canon
Sorry to post this to the whole board...
I'm doing an honors project next year tentatively (and somewhat blandly)
titled *The Formation of the New Testament Canon* and I was wondering if
the more erudite of you out there would be willing to suggest some good
source material, preferably works in English, but also German...thanks.
Leroy Huizenga huizenga@acc.jc.edu
6383 College Ln.
Jamestown, ND 58405 (701)253-4416
------------------------------
From: "The Rev. Deena Candler" <candler@acc.jc.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 22:43:09 -36000
Subject: Re: Canon
Leroy--
I have done some seminars on this and have compiled some stuff...Metzger,
Bruce, etc. Let me go through my file and bookshelf and see what I
have. How come I have to read about this here first?
Deena Candler
Jamestown College
On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Melanchthon wrote:
> Sorry to post this to the whole board...
>
> I'm doing an honors project next year tentatively (and somewhat blandly)
> titled *The Formation of the New Testament Canon* and I was wondering if
> the more erudite of you out there would be willing to suggest some good
> source material, preferably works in English, but also German...thanks.
>
> Leroy Huizenga huizenga@acc.jc.edu
> 6383 College Ln.
> Jamestown, ND 58405 (701)253-4416
>
>
------------------------------
From: Micheal Palmer <mpalmes@email.unc.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 00:39:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Litwak's request re: grammar
On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Edward Hobbs wrote:
> To Ken Litwak, and all who responded to his request for advice in
> preparing for a course in reading of Patristics texts in Greek:
>
[DELETION]
> (2) I disagree thoroughly with the advice of some (including
> Micheal Palmer, for whom I have the highest respect), who say
> that the best way to prepare for this reading course is to read
> lots of N.T. (or other) Greek texts, with a pony at hand. First,
> because you are heading for a reading course -- there you will
> actually do the reading of Greek texts. Second, because my
> experience (teaching Greek since the fall of 1947, almost 48
> years -- at Chicago, Berkeley, finally Harvard and Wellesley) is
> that the best way NOT to learn Greek is to use a pony. People
I must say that I was surprized to see myself described as an advocate of
using a pony (I had to first find out what a 'pony' was since I have never
used one nor allowed my students to use them) to learn Greek. I could not
agree more emphatically with Edward Hobbs' criticism of that practice. [I
should say, also, that his expertise in Greek goes well beyond what he
cited in his note. I have read some of his analyses of Greek syntax from
a project conducted in the 1970s and find them quite stimulating.]
What I was suggesting to Ken is not that he use a pony (a crutch?), but
that he avoid wasting hours of time by pouring through material which he
has doubtless already covered in his earlier work on Greek. I suggested
using a bilingual text, not as a cheat-sheet for one learning Greek
(since Ken said he already reads Greek, but needs some review), but as a
means of increasing vocabulary and identifying problems for further
study for one who already reads Greek. It is precisely at those points
where he finds himself looking at the English text that he needs to stop
and review the relevant grammar.
While I do not have the vast amount of experience of Dr. Hobbs at
teaching Greek, I do have two sets of experiences which convince me
that this strategy works. First, I used to be a lecturer in English as a
second language. I taught reading and grammar. My students came to me with
barely enough English to say "My name is Chuang." In no less than eight
months virtually all of them passed the Test of English as a Foriegn
Language and went on to perform satisfactorally in university classes. I
never criticized my more advanced students for using bilingual helps.
While I discouraged this practice for beginners, I found that it could
greatly speed up the learning progress for students who had already
mastered the basics.
Second, I speak Spanish about as fluently as I speak English. When I was
twenty years old I could not say 'Me llamo Mike' and have a Spanish
speaker understand me. For the first two years of my study of Spanish I
never touched a bilingual text. After I had mastered the basics, however, I
used bilingual texts to help me build vocabulary and identify problem
areas where I needed review or further study. It worked well enough that
I paid for part of my graduate studies by working as a simultaneous
translator for the US District Court for Western Kentucky.
Oddly enough, I never used a bilingual text in my own study of Greek. I
assumed that since they had been helpful to me in learning Spanish (at an
advanced level) and to my students of English as a second language (again
at an advanced level), that such a text would help Ken since he already
has a number of years of Greek study.
There are many "ponies" which I would not dream of suggesting that a
student of Greek (at any level) use. They can be disasterous. Still, for one
who already reads Greek and simply wants to refresh her or his
vocabulary and identify places for review of grammar, using a bilingual
text can be a useful thing to do. Still, Dr. Hobbs' warnings need to be
heard. If a student uses a bilingual text, she or he runs the risk of
accepting the judgments of the translators as final. [Actually, I think
"runs the risk" is a little mild. I think many beginning students _would_
accept the judgments of the translators as non-negotiable.] I assumed Ken
had the kind of familiarily with critical biblical studies to avoid that
trap, but perhaps I should have mentioned it in my earlier note to make
that clear to the rest of you.
Micheal W. Palmer
Mellon Research Fellow
Department of Linguistics
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #628
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