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b-greek-digest V1 #682
b-greek-digest Tuesday, 25 April 1995 Volume 01 : Number 682
In this issue:
Re: UBS4 & NA27
Re: Mt. 18:18
Re: UBS4 & NA27
Re: Software for learning Greek.
Re: UBS4 & NA27
Re: Memorisation of Principal Parts
Re: Software for learning Greek.
Fw: Yes, it's a hoax
Re:Midrash in Gospels
Re: Memorisation of Principal Parts
Re: Software for learning Greek.
Re: Memorisation of Principal Parts
Herod & Augustus
Re: Memorisation of Principal Parts
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Vincent Broman <broman@np.nosc.mil>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 95 11:12:06 PDT
Subject: Re: UBS4 & NA27
kenneth@sybase.com asked:
> Are all the variants listed in the NA27 really that important...?
I'm not sure there is a consistent rule for which variants
got included in the NA26 apparatus. The variants well-discussed in
the past _are_ included, and essentially all spelling problems are excluded,
even for proper names, loan words, and dialect variations.
But some variants, such as p75 attaching a name to the rich man meeting
Lazarus, are mentioned just because they are interesting, not because they
might be original readings. The same goes for many subsingular readings of
B and D which they included. On the other hand, many mainly-Byzantine
readings are silently passed over because they couldn't be original,
whether or not they might be illustrative of the history of interpretation.
Vincent Broman, code 572 Bayside Email: broman@nosc.mil
Naval Command Control and Ocean Surveillance Center, RDT&E Div.
San Diego, CA 92152-6147, USA Phone: +1 619 553 1641
------------------------------
From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 15:33:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Mt. 18:18
TO: b-greek@virginia.edu
cc: stefeb@oasis.ot.com
from: Timster132@aol.com
Steve,
If you look at the context of Mt 18:18, you will see that Jesus is giving
the authority to the disciples to institute a Ban, or excommunication.
Evidently the Matthean church was in need of instruction on how to go about
doing this and may have been wondering if anyone had the authority to do so.
In v.19, Jesus confirms the decisions of the church body in such matters, and
actually in any matter, where there is agreement. For when the church speaks
authoritatively, Jesus assures them "I am in the midst of them" (v 20).
Authority was an important issue for Matthew, esp. since he ends his gospel
addressing the doubts of some with Jesus saying "All authority is given to
me...Go then and make disciples..." (Mt 28:17-19)
In the next couple of verses in Ch 18, Matthew emphasizes with Peter's questio
n that this "binding and loosing" does NOT apply to forgiveness. We are to
always forgive. Unforgiveness is NOT part of the excommunication process.
[But curiously cf John 20:23 where John has the risen Jesus giving the
disciples the authority to forgive or retain sins]
Does this binding and loosing in Mt 18 apply to healing? Interesting
question. The context doesn't seem to suggest that that is what this verse is
about.
It would seem that Jesus had _already_ given the apostles the authority to
cast out demons and cure "every disease and every sickness" (Mt 10:1). In
fact, it was a part of the apostles' mission: "Proclaim the good news... cure
the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons" (Mt 10:7,8).
So it would have been unnecessary for the church to come to a consensus (as
in 18:18) on whether or not they should pray for healing, since Jesus had
already commanded it.
The combination of "binding" and "loosing" usually conveys a legal sense. The
word "bind" in Mt 18:18 is DHSHTE (aorist subjunctive of DEW) means to
pronounce to be binding or obligatory or to declare something to be
prohibited or unlawful. This sense of authoritative speaking is also found
in Mt 16:19, where Peter is given the keys to the kingdom of heaven. The
word "loose" is LUSHTE (aorist subjunctive of LUW) is used in Mt 18:18 in the
sense of declaring someone or something free.
The Rabbis spoke of binding ('aPHiYR) and loosing (SeReI) in this manner, as
forbidding and permitting.
The ancients spoke of Prometheus, who stole fire and gave it to humanity,
saying 'OSA DHSEIEN 'O ZEUS, TAUT' EKSON 'HRAKLEI LUSAI.
As for your evangelist friend, he is simply proof-texting the Bible to prove
what he wants, which is a method of Biblical interpretation that I would not
recommend. A person can prove just about anything from snake-handling to
slavery by proof-texting. It would seem that studying the Scripture in it
context and letting it speak to us, rather than finding verses to back up our
own ideas, is preferable.
Peace,
Tim
------------------------------
From: Ken Penner <kpenner@unixg.ubc.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 13:05:27 -0700
Subject: Re: UBS4 & NA27
At 11:12 PM 4/22/95 PDT, Kenneth Litwak wrote:
> While the NA27 apparatus is certainly better, I think an important
>question can be raised at this point. Are all the variants listed in
>the NA27 really that important, as opposed to the significant variants
>listed in UBS4?
>I think the UBS4 is adequate for
>exegesis as a general rule, though if there is an interesting variant,
>I'd go to the NA27 to get further info. Is that a reasonable approach or
>am I ovesimplifying too much?
That is a reasonable approach if your only intention is to arrive at the
original text for the purposes of exegesis or translation.
Variants can be used for other purposes, for example to shed light on the
church history, theology, or scribal habits in various areas throughout the
period the text was transmitted.
Ken Penner
Regent College
------------------------------
From: Ken Penner <kpenner@unixg.ubc.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 13:06:01 -0700
Subject: Re: Software for learning Greek.
At 03:30 PM 4/23/95 MEZ-1MESZ, BOEHMISCH FRANZ wrote:
>I have collected Internet-resources during the last month
>concerning online Bible and Bible languages and electronic
>products in Bible interpretation generally.
>You can find this all at the WWW-Site:
>http://www.uni-passau.de/ktf/bibelwissenschaft.html
Thanks for the reference. I tried the WWW-site you mentioned last time,
http://www.uni-passau.de/ktf/mitarbeiter/boehmisch.html, but I had trouble
finding anything for teaching Greek (I DID find an interesting link to a
Chess page, though! ;-) I'll try this one today.
>Please do inform me about materials You find and I do not
>know.
Sure thing. I'll post anything new to the B-Greek list.
Ken Penner
Regent College
------------------------------
From: Bill Mounce <billm@on-ramp.ior.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 13:31:16 -0700
Subject: Re: UBS4 & NA27
I once asked professor Metzger why UBS had such different apparatus than
NA. He said that they did not want to reproduce what was already done in
NA, so instead they chose the main variants and gave a lot more
information. This adequately explains the difference, and it is "from the
horse's mouth" (although I shudder at the thought of comparing Prof.
Metzger to anyone or anything!). I don't think we should read anything more
into it, as far as the cmmittee's intention.
------------------------------
From: Bill Mounce <billm@on-ramp.ior.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 13:37:20 -0700
Subject: Re: Memorisation of Principal Parts
>Let me perhaps illustrate Bill's point by saying that I think this
>definition is very misleading, Bruce, unless you meant it facetiously to
>reflect what students FEEL about principal parts. Obviously irregular
>principal parts were never DESIGNED to throw students into utter
>confusion; they throw students into confusion because they are
>UNPREDICTABLE from the stem of the present tense. One learns the Greek
>verb and usually in the morphology charts sees it represented by a verb
>like LUW or PAIDEUW (since I started with Koine, it was STAUROW)--a verb
>with a vowel-stem and perfectly predictable formation of all other
>tense/voice stems.
>
>My definition of principal parts: those first-person-singular forms in
>each of the six major verb systems from which may be derived the
>tense/voice stems of those systems.
>
While this may be a good working definition, technically I think it is
incorrect. The stem is not drawn from the principal part. The stem is form
from the verbal root, and from that is formed the first person singular
form.
In doing my morphology I couldn't find a definitive desciption of what a
stem was. Does it include the augment, tense formative, etc.
If you have had a chance to see my morpholopgy you would also not hatt I do
not agree wityh the concept of "unpredictablity" in the formation of the
principal parts. The rules are quite explicit -- even if my typing and
spelliing are not -- and you can almost always guess what they will be.
Very rarely, especially when ablaut is involved, do you have to guess. That
is the value of knowing the morphological rules and patterns.
------------------------------
From: BOEHMISCH FRANZ <KLBOEH01@fsuni.rz.uni-passau.de>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 23:20:35 MEZ-1MESZ
Subject: Re: Software for learning Greek.
> Sure thing. I'll post anything new to the B-Greek list.
> Ken Penner
> Regent College
This is from the Bible Software FAQ of Shawn G. Abigail
updated every month
in the soc.religion.christian.bible-study newsgroup.
You can find it also in this group and must not look at any
WWW-Site I mentioned in my last posting.
* 10) What tools are available for Biblical language study?
* 10.1) GreekTools
* 10.2) Hebrew Tools
* 10.3) Greek Vocabulary?
* 10.4) MEMCARDS Biblical Greek Vocabulary Software,
* 2nd Edition
* 10.5) MEMCARDS Biblical Hebrew Vocabulary
* Software, 2nd Edition
* 10.6) MEMCARDS Biblical Greek Forms and Parsing
* Software
* 11) Where can I get more information about Bible software?
* 11.1) Christian Computing Magazine
* 11.2) Church Bytes
The reference to
gopher://delphi.dur.ac.uk/11/Academic/P-
/Theology/Computing/Software Software for Theologians
might be of help to You.
This all I collected at the above mentioned WWW-site
and not at my personal page from my signature.
Perhaps this of help to You all.
Sincerely, Franz Boehmisch
------------------------------
From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 16:46:23 CST
Subject: Fw: Yes, it's a hoax
The following message was sent by a person who last week sent out a warning
about the "Good Times" virus. Since a similar warning was posted on B-Greek
today, I am forwarding this. It contains the official U.S. government agency
in charge of such things statement (how's that for a complicated noun phrase).
If you don't care about such things, delete this. If you care deeply, there
is even another list that you can subscribe to, and the address is given in
this post.
- ----------------------Forwarded Message---------------------------------
NO GOOD TIMES AT ACU. Well, you know what I mean. I have had several
responses that the GOOD TIMES virus is a hoax, and that the only danger
that it poses is from computer-stupid people raising fear and concern that
there is such a hoax. ahem.
Anyway, here's the "official" statement from the CIAC, along with some
useful information about the CIAC.
See ya in the funnies...
THIS IS A HOAX. Upon investigation, CIAC has determined that this message
originated from both a user of America Online and a student at a university
at approximately the same time, and it was meant to be a hoax.
CIAC has also seen other variations of this hoax, the main one is that any
electronic mail message with the subject line of "xxx-1" will infect your
computer.
This rumor has been spreading very widely. This spread is due mainly to the
fact that many people have seen a message with "Good Times" in the header.
They delete the message without reading it, thus believing that they have
saved themselves from being attacked. These first-hand reports give a false
sense of credibility to the alert message.
There has been one confirmation of a person who received a message with
"xxx-1" in the header, but an empty message body. Then, (in a panic, because
he had heard the alert), he checked his PC for viruses (the first time he
checked his machine in months) and found a pre-existing virus on his machine.
He incorrectly came to the conclusion that the E-mail message gave him the
virus (this particular virus could NOT POSSIBLY have spread via an E-mail
message). This person then spread his alert.
As of this date, there are no known viruses which can infect merely through
reading a mail message. For a virus to spread some program must be executed.
Reading a mail message does not execute the mail message. Yes, Trojans have
been found as executable attachments to mail messages, the most notorious
being the IBM VM Christmas Card Trojan of 1987, also the TERM MODULE Worm
(reference CIAC Bulletin B-7) and the GAME2 MODULE Worm (CIAC Bulletin B-12).
But this is not the case for this particular "virus" alert.
If you encounter this message being distributed on any mailing lists, simply
ignore it or send a follow-up message stating that this is a false rumor.
Karyn Pichnarczyk
CIAC Team
ciac@llnl.gov
- ------------------------------
WHO IS CIAC?
CIAC is the U.S. Department of Energy's Computer Incident Advisory
Capability. Established in 1989, shortly after the Internet Worm, CIAC
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CIAC is located at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and is a part of
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End of CIAC Notes Number 94-04c 94_12_08
*****************************************
********************************************************************************
Bruce Terry E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station Phone: 915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699 Fax: 915/674-3769
********************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: TimNeum@aol.com
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 18:18:22 -0400
Subject: Re:Midrash in Gospels
Previously, Tim Staker wrote:
SNIP
Where the fundamentals insist that one must believe in the literal virgin
birth, and the early liberal tradition dismissed it completely because of its
dubious historicity, I reject both these positions. What is important from an
exegesis standpoint is perceiving what the 1st century witness was saying
about who Jesus was for them, and then hermeneutically applying this by
asking how this informs us as to how we perceive who Jesus is. In that the
virgin birth is one of several ways the NT talks about how Jesus is God's
Son, we can ask ourselves how we understand Jesus as God's Son and how
Mt/Lk's understand infroms us, along with other NT understandings (such as
"adoption" by Paul and in early Acts) and even other understandings from
different times and places (including our own culture).
As for theology, the whole process of understanding midrash effects my
Christology. My proclamation has changed from "Jesus is God", a statement
which can be argued, to "I see God in Jesus", which is my experience and the
experience of the NT writers-- and this cannot be argued, but rather
explored. It seems to me a more effective way of doing theology and
evangelism, rather than getting tangled up in endless debates and arguments
that end up showing less of the love of God and more of my pride and
judgmentalism.
SNIP
Given that the original date of these comments was 3/27/95, I apologize for
bringing up something from "ancient history." However, I see from some more
recent postings that this is still a current thread.
My response to Mr. Staker's comments on midrash and the unimportance (as I
perceive him to be saying) of the historical facticity of the life of Jesus
is Col.2:9: The fulness of the Godhead dwelt in [Jesus] bodily.
This proposition of Paul is arguable and is demonstrated in the Gospels. What
Paul declares here the Evangelists describe. I see in the Gospels narrative
theology.
Paul was able to base his assertion upon the historical facts of the life of
Jesus, which the Evangelists recorded (as they thought important and
pertinent). Do take note that by "historical facts" I mean salvific
historical facts. The life of Jesus is part of Heilsgeschichte.
So I agree with Mr. Staker that from the start we should not go about proving
this point or that. Rather, I think that we should tell of God's saving
actions in the God-man Jesus Christ and emphasize the salvation and the
spiritual benefits which we receive by virtue of Christ's promise to give
them.
However, IMHO, I cannot completely dismiss the issue of historical facticity,
because these facts contribute to the "head knowledge" portion of saving
faith in Jesus Christ. These facts are the stuff of which creeds are made.
The upshot, I think, is this. Countless generations of Christians have lived
and died believing that the Jesus who did the things which the creeds
describe is going to raise them to life again.
So, I don't know if we should quite so humble as to say, "I see God in
Jesus," when God inspired St. Paul in Col. 2:9 to declare it directly.
Regards,
Timothy L. Neumann
TimNeum@aol.com
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 19:05:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Memorisation of Principal Parts
Bill Mounce said
" I do not agree wityh the concept of "unpredictablity" in the formation of
the principal parts."
I agree with this statement to a degree. There is some "unpredictablity" in
whether a verb will have a deponent form in a given "principal part" (I think
that we all know what we mean by that because we have memorized enough of
them) or not. But as to the formation this is according to basic rules for
given types of verbs. The verb root for the verb whose lexical form is
GINWSKW is GNO. It reduplicates in the present and adds SK plus the primary
endings with thematic vowel. The second G becomes a N. In the future it
adds S plus primary endings like verbs of that type. It also is deponent.
Studying the types of verbs as Jim Brooks and I present (and Mounce also has
these) them in the Morphology from UPA can help greatly in mastering these
verbs. I require students to begin memorizing principal parts in each major
type in the first semester according to the frequency of verbs within the
types.
Carlton Winbery
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 18:15:57 -0500 (GMT-0500)
Subject: Re: Software for learning Greek.
On Mon, 24 Apr 1995, Ken Penner wrote:
> At 03:30 PM 4/23/95 MEZ-1MESZ, BOEHMISCH FRANZ wrote:
>
> >I have collected Internet-resources during the last month
> >concerning online Bible and Bible languages and electronic
> >products in Bible interpretation generally.
>
> >You can find this all at the WWW-Site:
> >http://www.uni-passau.de/ktf/bibelwissenschaft.html
>
> Thanks for the reference. I tried the WWW-site you mentioned last time,
> http://www.uni-passau.de/ktf/mitarbeiter/boehmisch.html, but I had trouble
> finding anything for teaching Greek (I DID find an interesting link to a
> Chess page, though! ;-) I'll try this one today.
>
> >Please do inform me about materials You find and I do not
> >know.
I got into the Passau web site last night without any trouble und da habe
ich einen ganz wunderbaren Schatz gefunden! Professor Boemisch says he's
collected a few resources: but this is eine ganz ausserordentliche Sammlung!
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 18:47:53 -0500 (GMT-0500)
Subject: Re: Memorisation of Principal Parts
On Mon, 24 Apr 1995, Bill Mounce wrote:
> >My definition of principal parts: those first-person-singular forms in
> >each of the six major verb systems from which may be derived the
> >tense/voice stems of those systems.
> . . .
> In doing my morphology I couldn't find a definitive desciption of what a
> stem was. Does it include the augment, tense formative, etc.
>
> If you have had a chance to see my morpholopgy you would also not hatt I do
> not agree wityh the concept of "unpredictablity" in the formation of the
> principal parts. The rules are quite explicit -- even if my typing and
> spelliing are not -- and you can almost always guess what they will be.
> Very rarely, especially when ablaut is involved, do you have to guess. That
> is the value of knowing the morphological rules and patterns.
Having already responded offlist to Bill's note, let me add a couple
points. For one thing, no, the principal parts do include the augment,
but the augment must be removed to derive the tense stem, because only
finite verbs are augmented. Does it include
"tense-formative"? Well, that depends on what you mean. I don't think
it's necessary to spell out, say, that in the verb MANTHANW, the present
stem is in fact MANTHAN-O/E and further to analyze that into the root
MATH with the formative elements of nasal infix MA/N/TH- and stem
formative element -AN- and thematic vowel O/E. I simply say they should
learn MANTHAN-O/E, which indicates that it's a thematic verb conjugated
on the stem MANTHAN.
Nor do I think of "principal parts" as anything more than a descriptive
and pedagogical tool, for which reason I don't see that it's necessary to
define them as an inherent fact about verbs. What's necessary is to have
a consistent mode of referring to the forms of a verb that are not
predictable from the form of the first-person singular present indicative
active/middle-passive. And I would still say that it is the
unpredictables only that need to be learned. You can teach the rules, but
even so, a student will form the future of AKOUW as AKOUSW if he/she
doesn't know that the future of this verb is middle voice; similarly I
don't see how a student is going to be able to use rules to know that the
future of MAXOMAI is the contract form MAXOUMAI and the aorist is
EMAXESA; what he/she would logically expect would be future MAKSOMAI and
aorist EMAKSAMHN.
There is a good deal more regularity to Greek than appears on the
surface, but on the other hand, it seems to me that a language is more
like a terrain that must be learned by traversing it on foot, and not by
a road map alone.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 20:57:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Herod & Augustus
Maurice O'Sullivan has chided me for failing to heed the original
requester's urging that the Latin text be given WITH ENGLISH
TRANSLATION. With apologies therefore to Rod Decker:
CWC: "I don't recall now who raised the question last week about
Augustus saying of Herod that he'd rather be Herod's pig than his
son, but I have finally tracked down the citation in Macrobius
Satires, 2.4.11, as follows:
Cum audisset inter pueros, quos in Syria Herodes rex Iudaeorum
intra bimatum iussit interfici, filium quoque eius occisum, ait:
melius est Herodis porcum esse quam filium.
"Upon hearing that among the boys that Herod, King of the Jews, had
ordered put to death within a two-year span of time, his son also had
been killed, [Augustus] said: 'It's better to be Herod's pig than to
be his son.'"
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
------------------------------
From: Bill Mounce <billm@on-ramp.ior.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 19:32:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Memorisation of Principal Parts
Okay, I guess I overstated the case for regularity. Most are predicatable.
A few aren't. Conrad, from your training were you taught that the "tense
stem" technically (not pedagocically -- remember, I can't spell) includes
the tense formative and augment, for example, or are they added to the
tense stem to form the principal part?
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #682
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