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b-greek-digest V1 #705
b-greek-digest Friday, 12 May 1995 Volume 01 : Number 705
In this issue:
Re: WID [Suggested convention]
NRSV and ADELFOI
homoiwma (again)
Re: WID [Suggested convention]
Greek transliteration conventions
Re: WID [Suggested convention]
Re: Greek transliteration conventions
[none]
Re: Greek transliteration conventions
Re: Greek transliteration conventions
Re: Greek transliteration conventions
AnthrOpos for a woman
Re: Greek transliteration conventions
Transliteration and MSS
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Philip L. Graber" <pgraber@emory.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 11:18:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: WID [Suggested convention]
On Wed, 10 May 1995, Carl W Conrad wrote:
> Sounds fine to me, Bruce. Now, how soon can I use my spanking brand-new
> digamma?
Have we really settled this? I'm as compulsive as the next person, but I
must admit that I enjoy the controlled anarchy of everyone using whatever
keyboarding seemed right in their (his or her? one's?) own eyes.
Philip Graber Graduate Division of Religion
Graduate Student in New Testament 211 Bishops Hall, Emory University
pgraber@emory.edu Atlanta, GA 30322 USA
------------------------------
From: craig@tmh.chattanooga.net
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 11:06:33 -0400
Subject: NRSV and ADELFOI
On (Wed 10 Ma) terry@bible.acu.edu wrote to All...
t > Maybe someone who has the software to do so can run us a list of the
t > different
t > ways that ADELFOI is translated in the NRSV.
Bruce,
Out of 343 occurrences of ADELFOS, I came up with the following
translations:
brother
brother or sister
neighbor
member of the church
member of my family
member of God's family
student
disciple
believer
friend
fellow Israelite
people
relative
kinsfolk
family
another
one of them
beloved
comrade
(untranslated in 1 Cor. 15:58)
I used Bibleworks for windows.
****************************************************************************
L. R. MARTIN E-Mail: LRMARTIN@TMH.CHATTANOOGA.NET
4038 John Court, NW Phone (voice): 615-559-2044
Cleveland, TN 37312 FAX: 615-478-7711
BR'SHYT BR' 'LHYM. . . . EN ARXH HN O LOGOS. . . .
****************************************************************************
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: (8:2077/6504)
SEEN-BY: 2077/0 10 6504
PATH: 2077/6504 0
- -----------------------------------------------------------
The Missions Helpline * Give glory to God! * Cleveland,TN
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: perry.stepp@chrysalis.org
Date: Thu, 11 May 95 10:59:52
Subject: homoiwma (again)
Hello all.
Well, I guess I should have been more specific.
Again, I'm revising a previous study on Rom 6.1-14
for publication. I need to know of occurrences
(spelling?) of hOMOIWMA in secular Greek.
I already have the references from Trench, TDNT, BAG,
LSJ. What I really need is someone with access to
the TLG or somesuch who can fill in the gaps,
especially first-century uses of this rare word.
Again, I apologize for the duplication. Thanks for
any assistance you can render.
Perry L. Stepp, Baylor University
------------------------------
From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 11:18:42 CST
Subject: Re: WID [Suggested convention]
On Wed, 10 May 1995, Carl W Conrad wrote:
>Sounds fine to me, Bruce. Now, how soon can I use my spanking brand-new
>digamma?
Carl--
Since we have, as Philip Graber noted, controlled anarchy, you can start using
it right away. There have already been a couple of posts with the small h for
rough breathing. If fact, if you are going to post something on the digamma,
you might go ahead and do it right away before people forget what it is. You
may be one of the few people on this list qualified to say anything about it.
- --Bruce
********************************************************************************
Bruce Terry E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station Phone: 915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699 Fax: 915/674-3769
********************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 11:36:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Greek transliteration conventions
On Thu, 11 May 1995, Philip L. Graber wrote:
>
> Have we really settled this? I'm as compulsive as the next person, but I
> must admit that I enjoy the controlled anarchy of everyone using whatever
> keyboarding seemed right in their (his or her? one's?) own eyes.
"In those days there was no royal person on B-Greek; all the people did
what was right in their own eyes." (with no apologies to NRSV; this IS
the text you had in mind, was it not, Philip?)
Personally I'm very happy with "controlled anarchy" (but keep the fringe
militia groups away from my door, please!); I've just about found (after
three years or so), a style of transliteration that I'm comfortable with;
yesterday, however, my W = digamma threw at least one reader for a loop
and brought a query from another whether that was what I meant. I expect
that it will be another three years before I have occasion to use a
digamma again in this forum (although they do appear regularly in Greek
verb roots and help to explain etymological connections).
Nevertheless, I have toyed about some this morning (now that my Spring
semester grades are in) and have prepared a file showing three schemes of
transliteration in what I deem to be an increasing order of complexity.
The third of them is the unmodified TLG Beta code, which seems to me to
be far more complex than we need for citing a short Greek text--i.e., I
don't really think we need to mark the accents, the smooth breathing, or
even distinguish between proper and common nouns & adjectives. I was
going to send this on to Bruce Terry for review but since Philip has
raised the question, I thought I might go ahead and post it now.
Consider the following not as a set of alternatives from which we need to
make a choice, but rather as a set of options that any one might consider
using. The first is the one that I have more or less been using lately.
Some Transliteration Schemes
- ----------------------------
Greek Transliteration for B-Greek
Remember that the purpose of our transliteration is NOT to
provide a text that can be readily transformed from ASCII
into RTF and into your own preferred Greek font for Mac,
DOS, or Windoze; rather, the purpose is to establish a
convention that will be mutually convenient and consistent
for all list-users to recognize and apply. Below I suggest 3
alternatives in what I deem an ascending order of
complexity, each of them with advantages and disadvantages,
none of them quite consistent with anybody's preferred
"home" keyboard font-pattern.
Alternatives:
(1) UC-char/LC-diac: Use upper-case to represent Greek
characters, lower-case to represent rough-breathing
(smooth-breathing being the default and unmarked),
iota-subscript. If (and only if) accents are essential in
passage cited: acute = /; grave = \; circumflex = @ (all
placed AFTER the vowel or diphthong).
A alpha
B beta
G gamma
D delta
E epsilon
Z zeta
H eta
Q theta
I iota
K kappa
L lambda
M mu
N nu
C xi
O omicron
P pi
R rho
S sigma (with no distinction of initial/medial & final)
T tau
U upsilon
F phi
X chi
Y psi
W omega
h rough breathing
i iota subscript
/ acute accent (after vowel/diphthong)
\ grave accent (after vowel/diphthong)
@ circumflex (after vowel/diphthong)
f digamma (if ever needed to represent early Greek)
q koppa (if ever needed to represent early Greek)
As everything is upper-case, there will be no orthographical
distinction between proper/common nouns and adjectives, and
therefore the diacritical marks will follow the characters
even if the initial vowel or diphthong would otherwise be
capitalized.
Note on the "UC-char/LC-diac" layout: The most significant
difference between this scheme and the SuperGreek/Graeca
keyboard layout is that here X = chi, C = psi, whereas in
the SuperGreek/Graeca layout C = chi and Y = psi. Rationale
for the difference: X at least "looks like" the ancient chi
(whereas the rationale for X = xi is that X at least "sounds
like" the ancient KS or xi).
(2) LC-C/UC-V: Lower-case chars, Upper-case long vowels,
don't distinguish proper nouns/adjectives, don't mark
accents, mark only rough breathing
Brief description: Use lower-case to represent normal Greek
characters, upper-case E for Eta, O for Omega; use
upper-case for initial characters of proper nouns/adjectives
(ignoring any possible confusion when the initial character
is E or O); don't mark accents at all; use ( before initial
vowel/diphthong to mark rough breathing.
a alpha
b beta
g gamma
d delta
e epsilon
z zeta
E eta
q theta
i iota, including a subscript (typed after the vowel)
k kappa
l lambda
m mu
n nu
c xi
o omicron
p pi
r rho
s sigma (with no distinction of initial/medial & final)
t tau
u upsilon
f phi
x chi
y psi
O omega
( rough breathing (before initial vowel/diphthong)
/ acute accent (after vowel/2nd char of diphthong--only
if necessary)
\ grave accent (after vowel/2nd char of diphthong--only
if necessary)
= circumflex (after vowel/2nd char of diphthong--only if
necessary)
Note on "LC-C/UC-V" keyboard layout: Its advantage is that
it provides a simple consistent pattern for representing
Greek texts for simple representation of text within
ASCII-text messages; its primary disadvantage is confusion
arising when the initial letter of a proper noun or
adjective happens to be Epsilon or Omega.
(3) TLG/CCAT Beta code
Brief description: Use upper-case to represent normal Greek
characters, use * before vowel to indicate upper-case
initial characters of proper nouns/adjectives; ( and )
before vowels and 2nd char of diphthong to indicate
breathings; use / \ = (respectively) after vowel or 2nd char
of diphthong to indicate accents.
A alpha
B beta
G gamma
D delta
E epsilon
Z zeta
H eta
Q theta
I iota
K kappa
L lambda
M mu
N nu
C xi
O omicron
P pi
R rho
S sigma (medial and final)
T tau
U upsilon
F phi
X chi
Y psi
W omega
V digamma
| iota subscript
' apostrophe
* upper case (following character is upper case)
- - hyphen
, comma
. period
: raised dot (colon)
; question mark
_ dash
) smooth breathing
( rough breathing
/ acute accent
= circumflex accent
\ grave accent
+ diaeresis
Accents and diacritical marks are written directly after the
coding for the character above and below which they are
located in the source document.
Note on TLG/CCAT Beta code keyboard layout: This was
originally created to enable appropriate software programs
to translate TLG coded texts into different Greek fonts used
by different platforms. Its advantage is that it provides a
consistent and thorough pattern for representing any Greek
text of any period; its disadvantage is that it seems
unnecessarily complex for simple representation of text
within ASCII-text messages.
- -----------------------------------------
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 11:40:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: WID [Suggested convention]
On Thu, 11 May 1995, Bruce Terry wrote:
> On Wed, 10 May 1995, Carl W Conrad wrote:
>
> >Sounds fine to me, Bruce. Now, how soon can I use my spanking brand-new
> >digamma?
>
> Carl--
>
> Since we have, as Philip Graber noted, controlled anarchy, you can start using
> it right away. There have already been a couple of posts with the small h for
> rough breathing. If fact, if you are going to post something on the digamma,
> you might go ahead and do it right away before people forget what it is. You
> may be one of the few people on this list qualified to say anything about it.
>
> --Bruce
And behold, it was so. At the very moment that Bruce was posting the
above message (I'm curious to see the nearness of the CDT posting-times)
I was readying my reply to Phil's note for sending.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
------------------------------
From: Stephen Carlson <scc@reston.icl.com>
Date: Thu, 11 May 95 14:10:03 EDT
Subject: Re: Greek transliteration conventions
Not to recommend this convention (in fact, I don't), the native Greek
speakers on soc.culture.greek have devised their own system for Modern
Greek, based upon visual similarities of the letters:
Upper case: A B G D E Z H 8 I K L M N 5 O 7 P S T Y F X 4 W
Lower case a b g d e z h 0 i k l m v 3 o n p c,s t u f x y w
Stephen Carlson
- --
Stephen Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations, : ICL, Inc.
scc@reston.icl.com : and songs chant the words. : 11490 Commerce Park Dr.
(703) 648-3330 : Shujing 2:35 : Reston, VA 22091 USA
------------------------------
From: npatt@esslink.com
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 14:59:36 -0400
Subject: [none]
unsubscribe
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 14:21:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Greek transliteration conventions
On Thu, 11 May 1995, Stephen Carlson wrote:
>
> Not to recommend this convention (in fact, I don't), the native Greek
> speakers on soc.culture.greek have devised their own system for Modern
> Greek, based upon visual similarities of the letters:
>
> Upper case: A B G D E Z H 8 I K L M N 5 O 7 P S T Y F X 4 W
> Lower case a b g d e z h 0 i k l m v 3 o n p c,s t u f x y w
This is indeed interesting; there are two or three elements here that are
indeed potentially serviceable (XRHSIMA?) for our purposes, as, for
example, 0 for Theta, Pp for Rho; I've urged my own students in Classical
Greek to use the lunate sigma for both initial/medial and final sigma,
and Cc are just made for that use. To my eyes, however, 8 for Theta
really looks PERITTON, and 4y for Psi probably is closer to the modern
hand-script convention for Psi. For our purposes there are surely too
many alien elements, and I would think that we want something which, for
the most part, at least, is akin to the alphabets we use for Greek most.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
------------------------------
From: Nichael Lynn Cramer <nichael@sover.net>
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 17:00:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Greek transliteration conventions
Carl W Conrad wrote:
> ... I've urged my own students in Classical
>Greek to use the lunate sigma for both initial/medial and final sigma,
>and Cc are just made for that use.
Apropos nothing in particular, the name of the machine on which I'm typing
- --as well as the vanity license plate on my pickup-- is XAPIC.
Nichael __
nichael@sover.net Be as passers-by -- IC
Paradise Farm
Brattleboro VT
------------------------------
From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 16:22:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Greek transliteration conventions
On Thu, 11 May 1995, Nichael Lynn Cramer wrote:
>
> Apropos nothing in particular, the name of the machine on which I'm typing
> --as well as the vanity license plate on my pickup-- is XAPIC.
Seems to me I've seen this on a Missouri plate too! It's ironic, not that
so many of the Greek characters show up in the Roman alphabet, but that
so many of them have different phonetic values.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
------------------------------
From: Edward Hobbs <EHOBBS@wellesley.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 18:25:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: AnthrOpos for a woman
Andrew Taranto wrote yesterday that anthrOpos isn't used of a woman if it is exclusive (i.e., no males involved).
Not so. Pindar, Herodotus, Isocrates, Aristotle (in the Nicomachean
Ethics, no less), and many others.
One doesn't even need TLG for this. The only lexicon in print worthy
of checking things like this is good old LSJM. (See pp. 141-142)
Perhaps we can cease citations of the "Intermediate" and the "Abridged"
LS's -- they are abridged from a VERY ancient edition of LS, and both are
over a century old. Things have actually been learned about Greek vocabulary
over the last century, and some of that can be found in the 55-year-old
LSJM. But not in the "Abridged" and the "Intermediate".
If LSJM is not in your library, borrow the money and buy it!
(New Supplement now out, too, so as to bridge the 55 years just past.)
Edward Hobbs
------------------------------
From: Stephen Carlson <scc@reston.icl.com>
Date: Thu, 11 May 95 22:56:47 EDT
Subject: Re: Greek transliteration conventions
Carl W Conrad wrote:
> > [soc.culture.greek system]
> > Upper case: A B G D E Z H 8 I K L M N 5 O 7 P S T Y F X 4 W
> > Lower case a b g d e z h 0 i k l m v 3 o n p c,s t u f x y w
> To my eyes, however, 8 for Theta
> really looks PERITTON, and 4y for Psi probably is closer to the modern
> hand-script convention for Psi.
Did you mean PERITTON as in "remarkable" or as in "redundant"?
Which system is more readable?
Outw gap hganhcev o 8eos ton kocmov wcte tov Yiov tov monogenh edwkev
iva nas o nicteuwv eis autov mh anolhtai all exh zwhv aiwviov
hOUTW GAR HGAPHSEN hO QEOS TOV KOSMON hWSTE TON hUIOU TON MONOGENH EDWKEN
hINA PAS hO PISTEUWN EIS AUTON MH APOLHTAI ALL EXHi ZWHN AIWNION
I suppose it would take some real getting used to the s.c.g. system.
Stephen Carlson
- --
Stephen Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations, : ICL, Inc.
scc@reston.icl.com : and songs chant the words. : 11490 Commerce Park Dr.
(703) 648-3330 : Shujing 2:35 : Reston, VA 22091 USA
------------------------------
From: Timothy John Finney <finney@csuvax1.murdoch.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 12:14:11 +0800 (WST)
Subject: Transliteration and MSS
Recently there have been some questions posted concerning early MSS and
accents. My reply is also related to questions of transliteration:
I have been transcribing the pre-1000 AD MSS of the Epistle to the
Hebrews for a Ph.D. dissertation. I use a system recommended by the
author of the collation program _Collate 2_, Dr Peter Robinson of Oxford
University Computing Service. I have found that it is flexible enough to
always enable me to transcribe what I see, including corrections,
breathings and accents (although I nearly always ignore accents because I'm
only interested in the text at this stage).
Here is an example:
<d1>IMAGINE THIS IS A TRANSLITERATION.</d1> <gl>PLEASE IGNORE THIS LAST
SENTENCE - THE WRITER WAS DERANGED. <ul>HERE IS WHAT IT SHOULD
SAY</ul></gl> <c1>IMAGINE THIS IS A TRANSCRIPTION.</c1>
Explanation:
The original scribe wrote:
IMAGINE THIS IS A TRANSLITERATION.
A corrector came along and inserted a gloss, which in the transcription is
enclosed in the gloss tags: <gl>...</gl>. Part of the gloss is underlined
for emphasis: <ul>...</ul>. According to the advice given, the original
scribe's work is deleted by a first corrector, so it is now enclosed in
appropriate tags: <d1>...</d1>. The first corrector's correction is
enclosed in appropriate tags as well: <c1>...</c1>. The beauty of this
approach is that it is very flexible: you make up tags as necessary. What
is essential is to tell the person using your transcription what the tags
you have used mean. For example, here is the masculine definite article:
<rb>O</rb>, that is, OMICRON with a rough breathing. (I admit that hO is
easier to type, but try typing an accented word which a person using any
one of the multiplicity of platforms around will be able to comprehend!)
Standardisation of transliteration is a wonderful ideal. But it has not
happened in practice. What is important is to be able to translate
transcriptions done under different systems to each other. To do that we
need to specify the system we are using.
The earliest NT MSS had hardly any accents, breathings, iota subsripts
etc. So why do we need them when we're talking about a passage? Perhaps it
is because Greek is not our native language, so we need some assistance
where a native Greek reader would understand exactly what was intended
(from context etc).
Well, sorry for such a long post.
Tim Finney
Murdoch University
Perth, Western Australia
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #705
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