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b-greek-digest V1 #767
b-greek-digest Thursday, 29 June 1995 Volume 01 : Number 767
In this issue:
Re: Interp. Of Apocalyptic Lit.
Useful Refs. on Q
BIBLE LIST Problems this morning, An explanation from the Owner
Re: Useful Refs. on Q
Re: Apoc. Lit.
Re: Apoc. Lit.
Re: Apocalyptic literature
Re: Apoc. Lit.
Re: Apocalyptic literature
Re: Apoc. Lit.
Re: Apoc. Lit.
Re: Apocalyptic literature
Dating of DSS
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "R.J. Stansbury" <stansbury.4@osu.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 08:55:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Interp. Of Apocalyptic Lit.
>
>If you are not familiar with this kind of hermeneutic, I would recommend
>
>Ladd's NT Theology, as well as his book, Jesus and the Kingdom.
>
One might also consider Herman Ridderbos's work ("The Coming of the
Kingdom" and "Paul: An Outline of his Theology") as well as the work of
Geerhardus Vos, particularly his "The Pauline eschatology." Both of these
scholars hold to the "Already, Not Yet" hermeneutic mentioned above, and
may even be a better place to start that Ladd.
- -----------
R.J. Stansbury
Department of History
The Ohio State University
E-Mail: stansbury.4@osu.edu
Phone: 292-4951
------------------------------
From: Paul Moser <PMOSER@cpua.it.luc.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 10:47 CDT
Subject: Useful Refs. on Q
Readers of the recent exchange on Q might benefit from:
Ivan Havener, *Q: The Sayings of Jesus* (M. Glazier, 1987).
This book includes an English trans. of A. Polag's
*Fragmenta Q* (the actual text of what is typically
called Q) and a lucid overview of prominent topics
regarding Q. Two other items on the topic are
noteworthy, both by G. N. Stanton: "On the Christology
of Q," in *Christ and Spirit*, eds. B. Lindars &
S. Smalley (Cambridge UP, 1973), and "Q" in *Dictionary
of Jesus and the Gospels*, eds. I. H. Marshall et al.
These treatments of Q are much less speculative than
those of Kloppenborg, Koester, Robinson and Mack.--
Paul Moser, Loyola University of Chicago.
------------------------------
From: David John Marotta <djm5g@virginia.edu>
Date: 28 Jun 95 11:53:22 EDT
Subject: BIBLE LIST Problems this morning, An explanation from the Owner
For those of you who experienced the problems this morning with the BIBLE
list here is the explanation of what happended:
Someone on the list set their mail to forward to the list. (Yes this could
have been an infinite loop). Our mail systems here at the University of
Virginia kill mail which has been forwarded more than 17 hops, which means
that every mailing to the BIBLE list went out to this user, back to the
list, back to the user (and everyone else again), back to the list, back
to the user (and everyone else again) etc. until it died and was forwarded
to me. This multiplied the volume of mail on the list several fold, and
flooded my mailbox and several of our system administrators.
In retrospect, I don't know of any protection from actions like this. Let
me remind those on the list that I receive a great deal of "John Smith
is on vacation this week." junk mail. Don't use even that technology if
you are on mailing lists. Receiving 300 of those messages while you
are on vacation make me need a vacation, just let your mail pile up, tell
your friends who would care, or unsubscribe from all lists while you are
gone.
What a morning! Sorry for your inconvience, as much as my own.
David John Marotta, Medical Center Computing, Stacey Hall
Univ of Virginia (804) 982-3718 wrk INTERNET: djm5g@virginia.edu
Box 512 Med Cntr (804) 924-5261 msg PRODIGY: KCMR45A
C'ville VA 22908 (804) 296-7209 fax IBM US: usuvarg8
------------------------------
From: "Gregory Jordan (ENG)" <jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:26:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Useful Refs. on Q
Mr. Paul Moser,
I wanted to thank you for your bibliography and your past comments on
Mack etc. I am desperately trying to do catch-up on this topic, so I
very much appreciate your posts.
Yours,
Greg Jordan
jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu
------------------------------
From: SWAECHTER@utmem1.utmem.edu
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 13:17:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Apoc. Lit.
Much of the current thread on Revelation and its alleged correspondence with
apocalyptic genre has two weaknesses. (1) It is far from a foregone conclusion
that the original setting of the Book of Revelation includes severe
persecution. There is solid evidence indicating that any persecution in
Domitian's reign was overstated by his adversaries. There is little solid
evidence of any wide scale persecution; a more likely scenario might be
localized conflict with overzealous community leaders. (2) One of the major
criteria of apocalyptic literature is pseudonymity. While I am fully aware
that not all subscribe to Johannine authorship, the book is still clearly
different from other apocalyptic works which are more certainly pseudonymous.
Consequently, I would view the hesitation concerning authorship of the Book of
Revelation as falling far short of any evidence in favor of apocalyptic genre.
Conclusion: Don't be too quick to force the Book of Revelation into an
apocalyptic genre. The text does include a clear self-designation as prophecy
(1:3; 22:7,10,18,19). And the opening and concluding sections exhibit clear
epistolary characteristics.
Steve Waechter
Instructor in New Testament and Greek
Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary
swaechter@utmem1.utmem.edu
------------------------------
From: "David B. Gowler" <dgowler@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 15:45:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Apoc. Lit.
On Wed, 28 Jun 1995 SWAECHTER@utmem1.utmem.edu wrote:
> Much of the current thread on Revelation and its alleged correspondence with
> apocalyptic genre has two weaknesses. (1) It is far from a foregone conclusion
> that the original setting of the Book of Revelation includes severe
> persecution. There is solid evidence indicating that any persecution in
> Domitian's reign was overstated by his adversaries.
.................
(2) One of the major
> criteria of apocalyptic literature is pseudonymity . . . .
> Consequently, I would view the hesitation concerning authorship of the Book of
> Revelation as falling far short of any evidence in favor of apocalyptic genre.
>
> Conclusion: Don't be too quick to force the Book of Revelation into an
> apocalyptic genre. The text does include a clear self-designation as prophecy
> (1:3; 22:7,10,18,19). And the opening and concluding sections exhibit clear
> epistolary characteristics.
Without falling into a black hole of apocalyptic proportions, a few comments:
1. All it takes to generate "apocalyptic" liteature is for the author(s)
to be in a situation of *perceived* crisis; this may or may not be
widespread or "severe."
2. A genre classification is NOT a strait jacket; there is variation
among individual pieces of literature in the "same genre."
3. This similarity and difference allows us as readers to examine the
piece of literature at hand more closely; the similarities and
differences lead to helpful comparisons. We don't chisel off the loose
ends to make them "fit" *our* formulations of what should be included in
this "genre."
4. To make a murky field even more murky, see the arguments of Chris
Rowland in *The Open Heaven* concerning the correlation between
"prophecy" and "apocalyptic." Perhaps they are not mutually exclusive.
5. A particular piece of literature may include aspects of more than
one genre within it.
6. Finally, our generic categories may have to become more refined. I
think particularly of the genre work of Mikhail Bakhtin, which utilizes
time/space categories of the chronotope to explicate matters relating to
genre.
Best wishes,
David
***************************
David B. Gowler
Associate Professor of Religion
Chowan College
Summer address (until August 11):
dgowler@minerva.cis.yale.edu
------------------------------
From: Pat Tiller <ptiller@husc.harvard.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 15:49:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Apocalyptic literature
This is a rather lengthy and rambling post. I apologize. But it may
provide some useful information.
John Collins, who has done the best recent work on apocalyptic
literature, in _Semeia_ 14 (1979) 9, on the basis of a study and comparison
of several works that are usually understood to be apocalypses, wrote:
"This common core of constant elements permits us, then, to
formulate a comprehensive definition of the genre:
_`Apocalypse' is a genre of revelatory literature with a
narrative framework, in which a revelation is mediated by
anotherworldly being to a human recipient, disclosing a
transcendent reality which is both temporal, insofar as it
envisages eschatological salvation, and spatial insofar as
it involves another, supernatural world._"
In _Semeia_ 36 (1986) 7, Adela Yarbro Collins, wrote:
In light of the suggestions made by Hellholm and Aune, the
following addition to the definition of `apocalypse' in
_Semeia_ 14 may be made: _intended to interpret present,
earthly circumstances in light of the supernatural world
and of the future, and to influence both the understanding
and behavior of the audience by means of divine authority._"
These definitions seem to me to be pretty good. As Paul Hanson (_IDB
Supp_, "Apocalypticism") pointed out, one must distinguish between
apocalyptic literature (usually understood in terms of genre),
apocalyptic eschatology (a religious perspective which may appear in
various genres), and apocalypticism (a symbolic universe which
"crystallizes around the perspective of apocalyptic eschatology" [p.
30]). Hanson's distinctions could probably be improved, but it is
important to make some kind of distinctions.
As Steve Waechter pointed out in a recent post (June 28, 1995), is is far
from a foregone conclusion that the original setting of the Book of
Revelation includes severe persecution." This, however, does not help us
to establish the genre of Revelation, either as an apocalypse or as
not-an-apocalypse. The setting of an apocalypse is often difficult to
determine. The fact that it is an apocalypse cannot be used as evidence
of a specific setting. Exile, for example, is not useful since most Jews
in the Hellenistic period considered themselves to be still in exile, even
after the return (Michael Knibb has an article about this somewhere). It
is probably true that the ruling party in Jerusalem probably authored no
apocalypses, and since literacy was required to author anything, it is
likely that most early apocalypses were written by relatively elite groups
that either were out of direct power or were otherwise dissatisfied with
the status quo. But this is not saying very much.
Steve Waechter also points out that, "the book [Revelation] is still
clearly different from other apocalyptic works which are more certainly
pseudonymous." Pseudonymity is certainly one of the characteristic
elements of by far the majority of apocalypses, and the book of
Revelation is certainly not pseudonymous. This observation has led
Dieter Georgi to call Revelation an "anti-apocalypse." The problem is
that Revelation shares may of the characteristics of other apocalypses,
but not all. This is, in fact, true of all apocalypses. It is clear
that Revelation is like an apocalypse. Whether or not it _is_ one may
depend more on one's literary taste than anything else.
Steve also mentioned the epistolary features of the first three chapters.
It is typical of apocalypses to be mixed with other genres (cf. 1 Enoch,
book 5, which combines the "10-Week Apocalypse," a nature poem, a
testamentary setting, and wisdom-like woes). That Revelation calls itself
prophecy is not significant. The ancients had no name for the genre.
According to Shaughn Daniel's citation and translation of Der Kleine
Pauly, (June 28, 1995), "Apoc. originated in Christianity above all with
sects and gnostics." I doubt if there is much evidence for this.
Finally, let me point out that not all apocalypses contain reviews of
history. So, even if one thinks (as I do) that Revelation is an
apocalypse, it is still unclear whether we should expect to find an
outline of "future history" in it.
Pat Tiller
Harvard Divinity School
------------------------------
From: Shaughn Daniel <zxmli05@student.uni-tuebingen.de>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 22:09:24 +0000
Subject: Re: Apoc. Lit.
> ... (2) One of the major
>criteria of apocalyptic literature is pseudonymity. While I am fully aware
>that not all subscribe to Johannine authorship, the book is still clearly
>different from other apocalyptic works which are more certainly pseudonymous.
Steve,
I'm wondering in what ways Revelation is "clearly different" from other
apocalyptic works, besides the issue of pseudonymity. Is there any basis
for this in the text, structure, or symbolism of Revelation or other works
categorized as "apocalypic"? any references which you could give for the
claim?
We could start, for instance, with the title of the book. Why does it have
the title "Apocalypse of John"?
If things were so "clear" to scholars of Revelation, then I suppose there
would be less debate concerning symbolic language and genre. =)
Sincerely,
Shaughn Daniel
Tuebingen, Germany
------------------------------
From: Shaughn Daniel <zxmli05@student.uni-tuebingen.de>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 23:46:20 +0000
Subject: Re: Apocalyptic literature
Pat Tiller wrote:
>According to Shaughn Daniel's citation and translation of Der Kleine
>Pauly, (June 28, 1995), "Apoc. originated in Christianity above all with
>sects and gnostics." I doubt if there is much evidence for this.
Original German sentence:
>>A. enstanden sich im Christentum vor allem bei Sekten und Gnostikern.
Pat,
It could be the translation that is getting in the way of things here. I
had to make a decision for "sich entstehen" which could also mean "to come
into being", "arise", "is produced from", "develop", and others. I decided
on "originate" rather hastily, I suppose (it was an off-the-cuff
translation after all). But "entstehen" always seems to have the idea of
"origin", regardless of the translational variants in English, and
"develop" is more appropriately "entwickeln", so in contradistinction to
that term, the idea of "origin" in "sich entstehen" is there, I believe.
Now, I understand that Der Kleine Pauly is marking the "origin" of the
majority of apocalyptic literature in general FOR Christianity. There is
also another problem, I suppose, and that is the little preposition "bei".
When I'm visiting or staying in/at your house, I'm "bei" Pat. "With" is
mostly rendered "mit" in German. My feel is that the verb in English has to
control the preposition. So, "arise" or "originate" takes the prepositions
"with" when the second prepositional object is "gnostics"; "in gnostics"
sounds sort of funny to me. Of course, we could change that "gnostics" to
"gnostic groups" and then render the whole phrase: "Apoc. arose in
Christianity above all (or primarily) within sects and gnostic groups."
1. Regardless of the translation, which is more true FOR Christianity?
a) the majority of apocalyptic literature originated/arose after Rev
b) the majority of apocalyptic literature originate/arise before Rev
2. Which of the following is more true FOR Christianity?
a) the majority of apocalyptic literature originated/arose
within sects and gnostic groups
b) the majority of apocalyptic literature originated/arose
before sects and gnostic groups
3. Therefore, which of the following is more true?
a) the majority of apocalyptic literature arose within Christianity
primarily from sects and gnostic groups
b) the majority of apocalyptic literature did not arise within Christianity
primarily from sects and gnostic groups
Thanks in advance for taking the test! =)
So, after all that, I would offer the following re-renderings in an
haphazard order:
A. arose in Christianity primarily within sects and gnostic groups.
A. developed in Christianity primarily among sects and gnostic groups.
A. originated in Christianity primarily with sects and gnostics.
A. arose in Christianity above all from sects and gnostic groups.
A. came into being in Christianity above all with sects and gnostics.
I guess one could change the translation to something more meaningful to
him-/herself. =)
Somewhere in all this mess lies "more truth". I'm just wondering where.
Sincerely,
Shaughn Daniel
Tuebingen, Germany
------------------------------
From: Rod Decker <rdecker@accunet.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 17:44:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Apoc. Lit.
>
>To:Shaughn Daniel <zxmli05@student.uni-tuebingen.de>
>From:rdecker@accunet.com (Rod Decker)
>Subject:Re: Apoc. Lit.
>
>>Shaughn Daniel wrote:
>>
>>We could start, for instance, with the title of the book. Why does it have
>>the title "Apocalypse of John"?
>>
>
>1. Does "apocalypse" have to mean that Rev. is apocalyptic as we currently
>define that term? Could it not also simply mean "revealing" in a
>non-technical sense?
>
>2. How far back can the title be traced? I seriously doubt that it was
>original but was added (as prob. all NT books) by later copyists. If so,
>then all the title tells us is how they understood the book, not what the
>author intended.
>
>Rod
>
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rodney J. Decker Calvary Theological Seminary
Asst. Prof./NT 15800 Calvary Rd.
Kansas City, Missouri 64147
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 20:31:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Apoc. Lit.
Rod Decker wrote,
"2. How far back can the title be traced? I seriously doubt that it was
original but was added (as prob. all NT books) by later copyists. If so, then
all the title tells us is how they understood the book, not what the author
intended."
The title of the Revelation is the first three verses. They seem to be an
essential part of the work. There is no evidence of which I am aware that
the book as originally produced did not start with verse one which contains
the word "apocalypse."
The title over the top in most mss. was surely added when it was brought
together with other books, but the word apocalypse seems to me to have been
originally a part of the text.
Carlton Winbery
Prof. Religion
LA College, Pineville, LA USA
------------------------------
From: Mark O'Brien <Mark_O'Brien@dts.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 08:30:09 CDT
Subject: Re: Apocalyptic literature
Original message sent on Tue, Jun 27 6:14 PM by kenneth@sybase.com (Kenneth
Litwak) :
>> Prooftexting his arguement, he misinterpreted 1 Thessalonians 4.13-18 where
>> Paul used symbolic language to describe to them that ultimately they would be
>> be restored to their loved dead ones. Darby concluded this was how God would
>> remove the church from the world, otherwise known as the rapture, that is,
>> the "snatching up" of the faithful church from this world. He continued to
>> find texts in scripture that support his theories. Apocalyptic literature
>> began a focused target with no consideration of its original meaning. He saw
>> it as a prediction of the "end of the world." From 1829 to the present,
>> Darby and other dispensationalists began to predict the end of the world
>> based on his conclusions. They were always wrong, but still remained
>> zealous.
>> My problem with this interpretation is that it does not take into
>> consideration the original intent of apocalyptic literature or the book of
>> Revelation. Originally, both were used to encourage persons who were in
>> exile or being persecuted.
>I'm not about to get involved in a discussion of Dispensationalism. I do
>have two questions for you, however, regarding your statements. First,
>upon what do you base the view that 1 Thess 4:13-18 is symbolic, and
>why do you put this particular handful of verses in a non-apocalyptic lit.
>book in the category of apocalyptic literature? Second, since you
>focused your note on Rev. 20, I would like to know what the original
>intent of Revelation has to do with the specific meaning of this passage.
>Is Revelation just for comfort? If so, and I think that is
underinterpreting it, why doesn't the presentation of a future, earthly
>kingdom meet with that purpose? This is not a question about
>Dispensationalims, but straightforward exegesis.
I agree. Dispensationalism is beside the point, since good exegesis must lead
one to the conclusion that although some of the material is prophetic in nature,
much of it also serves to describe the author's interpretation of current events
in symbolic language. In other words, just as some of the material in the OT
prophets appears to be using a "now and in the future" type of prophecy (perhaps
Isa 7:13ff serves as such an example), so too does Revelation appear to operate
in this manner.
Mark <mark_o'brien@dts.edu>
------------------------------
From: Greg Doudna <gdoudna@ednet1.osl.or.gov>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 22:16:25 -0700
Subject: Dating of DSS
To Paul Moser: although the radiocarbon data from the recent
Tucson tests does contain enough "scatter" in its results to
seem inconclusive, I should add that I have been studying
these results carefully for the past month and think I do see
something interesting. The Tucson tests increased the number
of Qumran texts for which there is now radiocarbon information
from 8 to 22. This is enough to begin applying some statistical
analysis to radiocarbon dates for script types among Qumran
texts. My preliminary work seems to indicate a case for a
possible redating of most Qumran paleographical date estimates
slightly earlier. By slightly I do mean by a small amount--
something on the order of say roughly 30 years or so. The
argument will require some work because of so many variables,
and it is not a sensational conclusion, but it will be
of some interest if it is valid. One implication is that
even fewer Qumran texts are as late as the first century CE
than formerly thought. Now if the data base could only be
increased from 22 to 100 radiocarbon dates some REAL
statistical work could be done . . . !
Greg Doudna
West Linn, Oregon
- --
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #767
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