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b-greek-digest V1 #792
b-greek-digest Friday, 21 July 1995 Volume 01 : Number 792
In this issue:
Re: Passover and GJn
Re: Passover and GJn
Re: Date of Wavesheaf/Resurrection
Re: Date of Wavesheaf/Resurrection
Junias in Ro16:7 an apostle?
Re: Passover and GJn
John 1:1c
Re: Date of Wavesheaf/Resurrection
Re: Date of Wavesheaf/Resurrection
PARASKEUH
lang. of Jesus
Re: Junias in Ro16:7 an apostle?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Gregory Jordan (ENG)" <jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 17:41:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Passover and GJn
On Thu, 20 Jul 1995, David Moore wrote:
> Apparently, an ealier message that I posted in answer to something
> Carl Conrad had wrote on this thread never reached the list server.
I know I didn't read it, although I might have deleted it by accident
before reading it.
> That previous message pointed out that the Babylonian Talmud
> (_Sanhedrin_ 43a), like the Gospel of John, also fixes Jesus'
> crucifixion on the eve of Passover.
I thought the argument running here was that John has Jesus crucified
before nightfall of Passover (that is, not in the "evening" of Passover,
but on the "eve" in the sense of the day before, in English). The Talmud
is equally vague: it says b'erev happesakh. To me, that means Passover
evening (which would put it at odds with all the gospels): cf. Joshua
5:10 "...vayya'asu et happesakh b'arba'a asar yom lakhodesh
_ba'erev_..."
Of course, it's worth noting that everything else in this Talmudic
passage contradicts all the gospels, except his name: Yeshua haNotsri.
Luke 23:54 and Mat. 27:62
> certainly agree with this as well, if we may understand "preparation"
> in reference to the Passover rather than to the Sabbath. (Cf.,
> however, Mark 15:42.) Nevertheless, Mark 14:12 indicates very clearly
> that the first night of Passover was the night of the Last supper.
And Mark considers the daylight hours before the Passover meal and the
evening hours of the Passover meal the same "hEmera," which means the gospel
writers are using the words "day" loosely, so as to guarantee our confusion
(or at least mine).
Greg Jordan
jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu
------------------------------
From: "Gregory Jordan (ENG)" <jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 18:04:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Passover and GJn
On Thu, 20 Jul 1995, David B. Gowler wrote:
> I think we are talking about two different aspects here. Let's start at a
> general level: Would you agree that GJn, in general, uses more symbolism
> than the Synoptics? Second, would you agree, with Raymond Brown et al.,
> that Jesus symbolically replaces a number of Jewish festivals and rituals
> through such words and actions as the miracle of the wine at Cana, the "I
> am" the Bread,"I am" the living water, the early "cleansing" of the
> Temple, and so forth? That much seems absolutely clear. If so, wouldn't
> the symbolism be more likely to be there about Jesus being the Passover
> lamb (including the aspects of the narrative I mentioned in previous
> posts?).
I haven't read Raymond Brown, so perhaps you could sketch briefly the
symbolic replacements of festivals. I am, though, aware of the use of
festivals as part of a coordinated thematic chain in the gospel. I would
say both John (according to your chronology) and the Synoptics both
replace the paschal lamb with Jesus: in John, according to you, he would
be sacrificed at the same time as the paschal lambs. In the Synoptics,
he is eaten at the same time as the paschal lambs.
> better job of explaining it explicitly. If Jesus had been able to eat the
> Passover in John, perhaps we would have had a better explanation!
> Instead, we have a symbolic representation of Jesus' replacing the Passover
> lamb, just like Jesus replaces the other rituals and festivals.
Or if Jesus's disciples had eaten his dead body in John, John would
certainly have outdone the Synoptics (pardon the grossness, everyone)!
But with your chronology, we are left wondering what the disciples DID
during that momentous Passover, how they could see it as symbolically
replaced by Jesus. John passes over that day as if nothing happened -
precisely as if it were merely a strict sabbath (just as he describes
it), not a Passover.
> Is "analogy" as "powerful" as metaphor? As symbolism? As parable?
> Analogy is more clear and more precise, but hardly more powerful. In
> Luke, when Jesus was asked, "Who is my neighbor," he did not give a
> definition; he gave a parable. The symbolism I have outlined about
> Jesus being the Passover lamb who dies at the same time as the
> Paschal lambs fits in with GJn's entire plot.
Analogy/metaphor/symbol/parable - all are different, and discussing the
differences would be worthwhile, but I think all can be powerful. When
Jesus says "take and eat, this is my body" (Matthew 26:26) I would say
that is a powerful metaphor: shocking, counter-intuitive, unexpected,
with all kinds of ramifications. John's symbols are precisely that:
symbols. Jesus is not a bread loaf, vine, gate, shepherd, light, etc.
nor does he need to replace these things physically (cf. John 6:63) in
the narrative.
Greg Jordan
jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu
------------------------------
From: Greg Doudna <gdoudna@ednet1.osl.or.gov>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 17:26:36 -0700
Subject: Re: Date of Wavesheaf/Resurrection
Stephen Carlson wrote:
> I don't think you have to make this case for a 36 date, because
> according to "Chronology," A DICTIONARY OF JESUS AND THE
> GOSPELS (1992), 36 is a candidate year along with 27, 30 and
> 33 for Nisan's 14 falling on a Friday. I also remember Robin
> Lane Fox's making the same point in one of this books; he
> favors the 36 date. Are you sure Nisan 22, 36 is a Sunday?
I am unfamiliar with these references but I am practically
certain they are in error. It depends on their source.
Harold Hoehner, who has written a lot about chronological
issues, said that 36 was a possibility. (It has been several
years; I don't recall which book of Hoehner's it was.) However
I checked this out and Hoehner was mistaken. The most accurate
astronomical information rules out 36 for a Friday Nisan 14;
and does make highly probable if not almost certain that
Nisan 22, 36 was a Sunday. As I recall, I was not able to
determine why Hoehner made this error, only that it was an error.
I suspect that the two references you cite may be drawing from
this mistake in Hoehner, since Hoehner is otherwise very good
in his information. I regret I am not able to cite *my*
references which are in notes packed away somewhere.
Greg Doudna
West Linn, Oregon
- --
------------------------------
From: Greg Doudna <gdoudna@ednet1.osl.or.gov>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 19:05:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Date of Wavesheaf/Resurrection
As brought out in the discussions by David Gowler, Greg Jordan,
Bruce Terry and others, there is some sort of real or apparent
problem in reconciling a Passover Last Supper with a Passover
crucifixion in the gospels. To put these events at the same
time is nonsensical, and it is possible the gospels themselves
represent early attempts to harmonise two traditions which, on
their face, contradict each other. The Gospel of John abandons
the claim that the Last Supper was a Passover meal and places it
[the Last Supper] a day before the slaying of the Passover lamb,
which, according to John, was fulfilled by Jesus's death at the
same time. Yet it is difficult to abandon on other than
arbitrary grounds the synoptic claims that the Last Supper was
a Passover dinner.
Let me suggest that it is very plausible that the Last Supper
was a Passover meal, and it is implausible that Jesus would have
been crucified on Passover. The Last Supper as Passover
corresponds with what Jews in Jerusalem would normally do.
Dating Jesus's crucifixion to Passover, however, could well be
attributable to later theological _tendenz_ to identify the
slain Jesus as the slain Passover lamb including chronologically.
The attempted solution in the gospels to have the arrest, trials,
and crucifixion happen in "one long night" does not seem much
of an improvement in terms of plausibility--as has often been
noted. Proposing different calendars is probably not a good
avenue to go either--in all other instances in the gospels in
which festivals are mentioned there seems to be no calendar
issue. (The only exception might be the date of the wave sheaf/
Pentecost sequence but within the *same* calendar.)
In terms of realpolitik, as illustrated in Peter's arrest in
Acts 12, ringleaders of an uprising would be arrested at the
beginning of a feast (feasts involving volatile crowds), and
it would make sense not to execute until the end of the feast.
My proposal for dating the crucifixion of Jesus a week later
(to the Friday at the end of the 7-day celebration) rests
upon the supposition that the "day of preparation" ("paraskeuH")
of Jn 19:14, 31 meant a weekly Friday (as Bruce Terry brings
out, this is its meaning in all other extant attestations), and
that the gospels do preserve an accurate memory that Jesus's
crucifixion occurred on a Friday before a weekly sabbath that
was also a "high day", or as John puts it, "Hn gar megalH H
Hmera ekeinou tou sabbatou" (Jn 19:31), "THAT weekly sabbath
was great, i.e. an annual high day. (Carl Conrad and others:
please advise if this conventional interpretation is
debateable?)
There were TWO high days in the seven days of the Passover/
days of unleavened bread. The first was Nisan 15, the first
day of unleavened bread, and the second was Nisan 21, the
seventh or last day of unleavened bread. If John 19:31 is
correct, then logically the Friday ("preparation day") before
a [weekly] sabbath that was also a high day, could refer
equally well to a Friday Nisan 20, near the end of the feast.
To be clear on the suppositions here, I am assuming (a) there
was a crucifixion during a Passover season, (b) the tradition
that it was on a Friday preceding a high day is accurate, but
(c) beyond this was subject to confusion (as apparently
reflected in the gospels themselves).
Following the 7-day Passover/days of unleavened bread feast--
and Luke 24:13f [= Gospel of Peter 59] is a picture of people
going home after the seven days are over--there are the
stories of Jesus alive or raised from the dead, appearances,
etc. These are all identified as having happened on the
Sunday after the Friday crucifixion (Luke 24:21). Whether or
not these resurrection appearances were artificially put on
one "long Sunday" as the stories developed is a separate
issue. This Sunday of Jesus's Resurrection became identified
as Jesus's fulfillment of the Wave Sheaf. But in Acts, in
which the figures of Peter and Paul appear to recapitulate
themes which Luke has for Jesus (as a literary motif), Peter's
"near-death/near-resurrection" experience seems to have an
*end*-of-the-feast correspondence with the Resurrection of
Jesus (12:4). In light of the Qumran Wave Sheaf being the
first Sunday after the end of the days of unleavened bread,
I see these literary themes as supporting a Qumran, as opposed
to Pharisee, Wave Sheaf dating in these traditions.
To conclude, redating the calendar date of Jesus's crucifixion
to near the end of the days of unleavened bread, to a Nisan 20
Friday just before the last High Day of the Passover/days of
unleavened bread, eliminates the problem of having the
crucifixion and Last Supper both happen at the same time,
allows time for questioning and a trial, and has other
chronological arguments and advantages as well.
Greg Doudna
West Linn, Oregon
- --
------------------------------
From: Jan.Haugland@uib.no
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 04:18:12 +0200
Subject: Junias in Ro16:7 an apostle?
Hello all!
I have been doing some research into the role of women in the early church. As
I am unskilled in Greek, I have to rely on outside expertise here. I hope some
of you can help me.
The NIV translates Rom 16:7 like this:
"Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me.
They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I
was."
So I have a few questions:
* Is it true that Junias is a woman's name?
* Is Junias an "apostle" (envoy) or is s/he considered an outstanding person
*by* the apostles, as most translations I've seen says?
To me it seems a bit unlikely that the apostles knew these people in Rome,
considering that all references to their whereabouts in the NT says they were
in Palestine.
To introduce myself quickly, since this is my first message to this nice
newsgroup, I am Jan Steinar Haugland, a student of history in the University of
Bergen, Norway. I was brought up in a cult, and as a side effect I have my head
full of Bible knowledge I try to make sense of now. I was the originator of
some nasty "preteristic" messages insisting on dating the Book of Revelation
before 70AD on another mailing list, and this caused Lorel to post the
"Ireneaus" question here. Btw, dispite my name and the nature of the question
above, I'm male :-)
Cheers,
- - Jan
- --
"Life may have no meaning -- or even worse, it may
have a meaning of which I disapprove."
------------------------------
From: David Moore <dvdmoore@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 19:27:15 -0700
Subject: Re: Passover and GJn
Gregory Jordan (jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu) wrote;
>
>> That previous message pointed out that the Babylonian Talmud
>> (_Sanhedrin_ 43a), like the Gospel of John, also fixes Jesus'
>> crucifixion on the eve of Passover.
>
>I thought the argument running here was that John has Jesus crucified
>before nightfall of Passover (that is, not in the "evening" of
Passover,
>but on the "eve" in the sense of the day before, in English).
The latter is certainly what I meant by "eve."
David L. Moore Director of Education
Miami, FL, USA Southeastern Spanish District
Dvdmoore@ix.netcom.com of the Assemblies of God
------------------------------
From: MR ALAN R CRAIG <CSRT29A@prodigy.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 22:45:44 EDT
Subject: John 1:1c
- -- [ From: Alan R. Craig * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] --
Because there appear to be a number of different ones here who either
have access to some remarkable libraries or to some comprehensive CD-
ROM materials, I would be interested in having someone do a search for
me. I am trying to locate other examples from the N.T. Greek, LXX, or
even Classical Greek which parallel the exact word order and precise
sentence structure as that of John 1:1c; e.g., Acts 28:4; Mark 2:28;
Esther 10:3 (LXX).
Thanks in advance, A. Craig.
------------------------------
From: Stephen Carlson <scc@reston.icl.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 22:58:10 EDT
Subject: Re: Date of Wavesheaf/Resurrection
David Moore wrote:
> Also, against the 36 date is the best info we have on Pontius
> Pilate which indicates that he left Jerusalem for Rome before Passover
> of 36. (See Shu:rer, _The History of the Jewish People in the Age of
> Jesus Christ_, I:386-88, esp. n. 145; Josephus _Ant._ xviii:90.)
John Meier says that the dating of Pilate "which is almost universally
accepted" is that of Le'monon who suggests that Pilate left the area
some time between December 15, 36 and February, 37 (A MARGINAL JEW,
p.411, n.5). Although Meier is aware of Shuerer's work, he did not
cite it for this point. He did give a reference for "earlier disputes"
in dating Pilate's departure to 35, 36, or 37.
Stephen Carlson
- --
Stephen Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations, : ICL, Inc.
scc@reston.icl.com : and songs chant the words. : 11490 Commerce Park Dr.
(703) 648-3330 : Shujing 2:35 : Reston, VA 22091 USA
------------------------------
From: Stephen Carlson <scc@reston.icl.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 23:14:02 EDT
Subject: Re: Date of Wavesheaf/Resurrection
Greg Doudna wrote:
> Stephen Carlson wrote:
> > I don't think you have to make this case for a 36 date, because
> > according to "Chronology," A DICTIONARY OF JESUS AND THE
> > GOSPELS (1992), 36 is a candidate year along with 27, 30 and
> > 33 for Nisan's 14 falling on a Friday. I also remember Robin
> > Lane Fox's making the same point in one of this books; he
> > favors the 36 date. Are you sure Nisan 22, 36 is a Sunday?
>
> I am unfamiliar with these references but I am practically
> certain they are in error. It depends on their source.
> Harold Hoehner, who has written a lot about chronological
> issues, said that 36 was a possibility. (It has been several
> years; I don't recall which book of Hoehner's it was.) However
> I checked this out and Hoehner was mistaken.
Hoehner wrote the article I cited. He proffered the four dates
and said that the 27 is "the least likely astronomically"; that
it is debateable "whether Nisan 14 fell on a Friday in A.D. 30";
and concludes that 33 "presents the least problem astronomically."
No futher word on 36 except that it does not fit the framework
of the ministry.
I don't have Fox handy to check his references.
Stephen Carlson
- --
Stephen Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations, : ICL, Inc.
scc@reston.icl.com : and songs chant the words. : 11490 Commerce Park Dr.
(703) 648-3330 : Shujing 2:35 : Reston, VA 22091 USA
------------------------------
From: David Moore <dvdmoore@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 20:27:49 -0700
Subject: PARASKEUH
Bruce Terry (terry@bible.acu.edu) wrote:
>On Thu, 20 Jul 1995, David Moore wrote:
>
>> That previous message pointed out that the Babylonian Talmud
>>(_Sanhedrin_ 43a), like the Gospel of John, also fixes Jesus'
>>crucifixion on the eve of Passover. Luke 23:54 and Mat. 27:62
>>certainly agree with this as well, if we may understand "preparation"
>>in reference to the Passover rather than to the Sabbath. (Cf.,
>>however, Mark 15:42.)
>
>But my question is, David, where is the linguistic evidence that
allows us to
>understand PARASKEUH in reference to the Passover rather than to the
Sabbath?
>It clearly means Friday in Josephus, Mark, the Didache, and the
Martyrdom of
>Polycarp. The only place that I can find the lexicons suggesting it
may mean
>"the day of preparation for the Passover" is John 19:14, and even
there Friday
>is an alternative meaning.
I agree "preparation for Passover" for PARASKEUH is not well
attested. Nevertheless, Jn. 19:14 appears probable in this sense.
Please note also Mat 27:62 where META THN PARASKEUHN is an exceedingly
odd way of referring to the Sabbath (although the day would have been a
Sabbath) if, in fact, PARASKEUH here simply means "Friday."
David L. Moore Director of Education
Miami, FL, USA Southeastern Spanish District
Dvdmoore@ix.netcom.com of the Assemblies of God
------------------------------
From: Pete Cepuch <pcepuch@diag1.iac.honeywell.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 22:03:05 MST
Subject: lang. of Jesus
David Gowler wrote:
I would argue that Brad Young's efforts in his book to translate parables
of Jesus back into Hebrew are largely unsuccessful."
Why? It's been awhile since I've read his book but I think the point of his
work was to illustrate how the parables used by Jesus fit in with the
rabbinic use of parables in general. The point being that His use of
parables was nothing revolutionary or new but something that was in use by
rabbinic teaching for quite some time. Jesus' style was well with-in the
second-temple era's emergence of the "proto-rabbi".
David Gowler wrote:
In addition, there is no such thing as 'totally Jewish/Hebraic grounds'.
The social, cultural,historical, literary interactions prohibit this 'Jewish'
culture from existing in some sort of vacuum.FLUSSER HIMSELF argued that the
parable has its roots in the Greek fable and in Greco-Roman philosophy.
Hengel, Goodman, and many, many others have shown the deep inroads that
Hellenistic culture made in Palestine, even though Hengel tries to limit it
somewhat"
Far be it from me to argue with FLUSSER HIMSELF :) as I said in my original
post I agree that Israel was multi-lingual etc. as I tried-lamely-to compare
the modern Israeli state and it's multi-cultural and multi-lingual condition
to the Israel of those times. BUT, the natural reflex of any culture that
is under siege-so to speak-is to circle the wagons and try to maintain
their cultural/linguistic traditions lest they be lost in subsequent
generations. I would even go further in the case of the Jewish people
who have been under siege throughout history and have always been considered
"backwards" by their gentile contemporaries who felt that their culture
was far supeior to that of the Jews. Hence, to the Jew, maintaining their
cultural/linguistic traditions and staying apart-as much as possible-from
whatever culture was currently in vogue was/is a matter of survival."Everyone
who has enslaved him is gone, Egypt and Rome and the great Babylon"-Bob Dylan
In every generation there has been assimilation problems for the Jewish
people and because of those who steadfastly refused to give up the Jewish/
Hebraic culture there still is a Jewish people. I cite the Chassidic
movement as a good example of this as it seems through the generations some
body kept "the ball rolling" so that there is still a definite Jewish people
who hold on to traditions and language that are thousands of years old.So,
I think it is reasonable-based on historical example-to view the hellenistic/
Roman occupation of Israel as also a period where this was occuring. So,
perhaps there was a segment of that Jewish generation who clung to the
Hebrew tongue-and that there is that plausible contention that Jesus spoke
Hebrew as well as Aramaic and possibly Greek. Again, we have a Greek text
with Hebrew and Aramaic words mixed up together as well as Dr. Lindsey
points out, some Hebraic sentence structure dressed in Greek.
David Gowler wrote:
Yet the Maccabeans, who ostensibly were throwing off this hellenistic
'yoke', named their children with hellenistic names and declared a
festival(Hannukah). This declaration of a festival itself comes from
,ironically, a hellenistic influence. Untill these hellenistic influences
came about, God was the only one who could declare a festival".
Well, the Maccabeans were doing what I tried to explain above: as you say
"throwing-off this hellenistic yoke". The temple was defiled and the people
were subjected to a serious cultural challenge. The Maccabeans were taking
the last resort of warfare to stop something that spelled the end of
Hebraic culture if left un-checked. I believe-someone I'm sure will correct
me if I'm wrong-that the text of the various Maccabean books that we have
are in Greek. And as is the practice of some in the Jewish world,today,who
have say English names, they also have Hebrew names-is this not also a
possibility for the Maccabean children? I don't know-just a shot in the dark:)
I'm not sure I understand how Hannukah comes from a hellenistic influence,
other than a reaction to the defilement of the temple. Didn't Solomen also
dedicate the first temple?(CHaNNuKaH). As is the case with Purim, which
Mordecai established-not GoD-to be a festival to be celebrated throughout
the generations(Esther 9:20-32)so too is Hannukah as that unlearned-hick
from Nazareth Himself celebrated :) -John 10:22
All the best,
Peter Cepuch
s use of parabolic/
------------------------------
From: Larry Swain <lswain@wln.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 22:12:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Junias in Ro16:7 an apostle?
On Fri, 21 Jul 1995 Jan.Haugland@uib.no wrote:
> I have been doing some research into the role of women in the early church. As
(snip)
> So I have a few questions:
>
> * Is it true that Junias is a woman's name?
Yes, Junia is the feminine form of the name.
> * Is Junias an "apostle" (envoy) or is s/he considered an outstanding person
> *by* the apostles, as most translations I've seen says?
At the risk of being corrected by those better in grammar than I, I will
nevertheless sally forth and take my volleys. Anyway, as I read it, and
the research I have done on the verse, says that the construction here is
ambiguous: it could be read as "A. and J. who are outstanding
(remarkable) among the apostles" i.e. they are apostles themselves and
are remarkable in comparison to the other apostles. The other reading,
and one given by the NIV-A & J are remarkable by the apostles-that is the
aposelts think of them highly. I think the most likely translation is
the first. Also, Clement of Alexandria refers to this verse and
understands it as referring to a husband and wife who are apostles, I
will have to look up the reference again. (Where have I typed that before?)
> To me it seems a bit unlikely that the apostles knew these people in Rome,
> considering that all references to their whereabouts in the NT says they were
> in Palestine.
Not so unusual really. First, Paul is from Tarsis, a major point on the
overland and sea trading routes. Second, these folk are relatives-I know
that my family is somewhat odd in the modern world, but I have close
relations five times removed-it is not surprising that Paul should be
acquainted with relatives living in Rome. Third, one of the things in
modern discussions that is frequently forgotten is that the various
Christian communities were far from static, there were travelers and
traders and so forth. ANyway, there is my input.
Larry Swain
Parmly Billings Library
lswain@wln.com
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #792
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