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b-greek-digest V1 #798
b-greek-digest Tuesday, 25 July 1995 Volume 01 : Number 798
In this issue:
Re: Junia
Re: Junia
Re: Junia
Re: Junia
Re: Mark 16
Ro 1:21 -- DIOTI GNONTES TON QEON
BG: Hort and AlephB
Easter Events
Re: Ro 1:21 -- DIOTI GNONTES TON QEON
Re: Jesus a disciple
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Eric Weiss <eweiss@acf.dhhs.gov>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 8:34:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Junia
Here is the citation from John Chrysostom re: Junia being an apostle --
Who are of note among the Apostles. And indeed to be apostles at all
is a great thing. But to be even amongst these of note, just
consider what a great encomium [expression of high praise] this is!
But they were of note owing to their works, to their achievements.
** Oh! how great is the devotion of this woman, that she should be
even counted worthy of the appellation of apostle! ** But even here
he does not stop, but adds another encomium besides and says, Who were
also in Christ before me.
This excerpt is noted as being quoted from Theophylact, Traditio Catholica,
Saeculum XI, Annus 1070, in A WOMAN CALLED TO PREACH? by Frieda C. White,
House of Manna Publication, El Dorado Arkansas (c) 1978, p. 49. I doubt if
this book is in print anywhere.
The single sentence I marked with ** is what I most often found quoted. The
reference given (in Spencer, below) is Chrysostom's HOMILY ON THE EPISTLE OF
ST. PAUL THE APOSTLE TO THE ROMANS XXXI. I found this statement (as well as
further discussion on Junia) in the following books:
BEYOND THE CURSE by Ada Besancon Spencer, Hendrickson 1985 (p. 101)
WOMEN IN THE MAZE by Ruth A. Tucker, IVP, 1992, p. 101 (quoting from
Spencer)
IN SEARCH OF GOD'S IDEAL WOMAN by Dorothy R. Pape, IVP, 1976, p. 217
NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE by Q.M. Adams, Arthur H. Stockwell Ltd., 1973
(printed in USA by Christ For The Nations, Dallas), p. 229.
Adams quotes the entire passage above except for the first
and last sentence, and his reference is Chrysostom, St.:
LIBRARY OF THE FATHERS, Homolies (sic) on Romans (Oxford,
J.H. Parker; London, Rivingtons), 1841, Homoly xxxi, p. 489.
GOD'S WORD TO WOMAN by Katherine C. Bushnell, God's Word to Women
Publishers, Box 315, Mossville, Illinois, 61552 ($10.95), no
date (reprint--author lived 1856-1946), section 642, p. 284.
Happy reading!!
------------------------------
From: David Coomler <davidco@nethost.multnomah.lib.or.us>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 06:57:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Junia
In case it is of any interest, in the Russian Orthodox calendar Junia
(Iuniya) is commemorated on May 17th as "Holy Equal-to-the-Apostles
Iuniya."
David
------------------------------
From: Mark O'Brien <Mark_O'Brien@dts.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 09:16:59 CST
Subject: Re: Junia
Original message sent on Tue, Jul 25 12:57 AM by
davidco@nethost.multnomah.lib.or.us (David Coomler) :
> In case it is of any interest, in the Russian Orthodox calendar Junia
> (Iuniya) is commemorated on May 17th as "Holy Equal-to-the-Apostles
> Iuniya."
How interesting... it begs the question, though, of whether
"Holy Equal-to-the-Apostles" means "Holy Is-an-Apostle"?
Regards,
Mark O'Brien
Dallas Theological Seminary
- ----
"If you are slaves to sin, why boast of free-will?" -- Calvin
------------------------------
From: David Coomler <davidco@nethost.multnomah.lib.or.us>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 07:59:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Junia
On Tue, 25 Jul 1995, Mark O'Brien wrote:
>
> Original message sent on Tue, Jul 25 12:57 AM by
> davidco@nethost.multnomah.lib.or.us (David Coomler) :
>
> > In case it is of any interest, in the Russian Orthodox calendar Junia
> > (Iuniya) is commemorated on May 17th as "Holy Equal-to-the-Apostles
> > Iuniya."
>
> How interesting... it begs the question, though, of whether
> "Holy Equal-to-the-Apostles" means "Holy Is-an-Apostle"?
No, actually in Orthodox terminology the meaning is quite clear. Iuniya
is not officially an apostle (one of the twelve or the seventy), but is
considered equal to the apostles.
Usually that title is given those whose actions led to the conversion of
large numbers of people, such as Ol'ga, grandmother of the prince who
converted Russia to Orthodoxy in 988 A. D. She was considered the first
notable Russian convert. Mary Magdalene is also called
"Equal-to-the-Apostles," because of her (traditional) efforts in
proclaiming the Gospel.
So in the Orthodox church, Iuniya is not an apostle of the twelve or
seventy, but is nonetheless considered their equal in proclaiming the
Gospel. Keep in mind, however, that Orthodoxy accepts many legends and
traditions at face value, and has never had the sort of historical
examination of its saints that the Bollandists provided in the West.
David
------------------------------
From: Stephen Carlson <scc@reston.icl.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 13:29:50 EDT
Subject: Re: Mark 16
Eric Weiss wrote:
> Since the question about the ending of Mark is still unresolved, has anyone
> out there read or read a critique of the book that came out last year called
> THE UNFINISHED GOSPEL (hardback) wherein the author argues that he has found
> the "end" of Mark's gospel -- and it's in our bibles as John 21! He bases
> his case on the linguistic peculiarities of John 21 and on his theory that
> John's gospel was written to discredit and warn people about Simon Peter. He
> points out how the author of John closely links references to Judas son of
> Simon with Simon Peter in order to smear Peter. He believes John 21 was
> later tacked onto the end of John's gospel because it puts Peter back in a
> favorable light.
>
> The author is not a biblical "scholar" but he seems to know the material well
> enough to make his case.
>
> Any thoughts?
My own foray into stylostatistics (computer-aided analysis of style
according to arbitrary criteria) shows that John 21 is most like in
decreasing order: John 13, John 20, and John 18. The chapter of Mark
most like John 21 is Mark 6, which includes the feeding of the five
thousand and walking on water (cf. Jn6:1-13, 15-21). John 6 is about
as similar to John 21 as is Mark 6.
My conclusion: there is no reason to consider John 21 as belonging to
any other book than John.
Stephen Carlson
- --
Stephen Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations, : ICL, Inc.
scc@reston.icl.com : and songs chant the words. : 11490 Commerce Park Dr.
(703) 648-3330 : Shujing 2:35 : Reston, VA 22091 USA
------------------------------
From: Mark O'Brien <Mark_O'Brien@dts.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 12:47:47 CST
Subject: Ro 1:21 -- DIOTI GNONTES TON QEON
Considering the context, what does DIOTI GNONTES TON QEON mean?
Is this passage being addressed to believers, instead of the
traditionally assumed unbeliever? Dr. Craig Blaising once challenged
me to think this through, but I would be interested in any input from
y'all.
Mark
- ----
"To be ignorant of what happened before you were born is to
ever to remain a child." -- Cicero
------------------------------
From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 14:38:38 CST
Subject: BG: Hort and AlephB
Last week Dennis Burke wrote asking me if any textual critic would blindly
follow the reading of Aleph plus B. At that time I suggested that Hort did.
Yesterday in reading Aland and Aland's _The Text of the New Testament_ (p.18),
I ran across the following quote from Westcott and Hort's _Introduction_
(vol. 2 of their GNT, p.225),
Accordingly, with the exceptions mentioned above, it is our belief (1) that
readings of AlephB should be accepted as the true readings until strong
internal evidence is found to the contrary, and (2) that no readings of
AlephB can be safely rejected absolutely, though it is sometimes right to
place them only on an alternative footing, especially where they receive
no support from the Versions or the Fathers.
What worries me about this is that the current Standard Text is built on the
text of W-H, with only significant variants examined, including those places
where the orginal GNT varied from Nestle-Aland. But Nestle itself was made
on a two out of three reading between W-H, Tischendorf (who highly valued
Aleph), and Weiss (whom Aland and Aland say paid more attention to B than did
Tischendorf). Aland and Aland point out that Nestle25 varied from W-H in only
558 places (p.26).
I have no doubt that the major decisions in the Standard Text are for the most
part correct. Neither do I doubt that Aleph and B are for the most part good
MSS. But contrary to W-H, they are not the neutral text. The majority of the
text in GNT3/4 and NA26/27 was not done by the UBS Textual Committee; it was
done by Hort (whom, if I remember right, did the basic work on W-H). It is not
the major variants that I question; I wonder about the minor ones.
That Hort was a great scholar I do not question; that his work can be accepted
unexamined I do, especially in light of the above quote.
********************************************************************************
Bruce Terry E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station Phone: 915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699 Fax: 915/674-3769
********************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: Eric Weiss <eweiss@acf.dhhs.gov>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 16:02:43 -0400
Subject: Easter Events
We have been challenged.
Don Barker (author of LOSING FAITH IN FAITH -- he was a minister for many
years until he began examining his faith and found it wanting) issued the
attached challenge asking any Christian to harmonize the Easter weekend
events. (I attached it as a TXT file, not knowing what word processor you
might have.)
Excerpts from his book (what I attached is from chapter 24) can be found at
http://freethought.tamu.edu/org/ffrf/lfif/lfifcon.html
To give you a feel for what he's saying, following is the beginning of the
attachment:
Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist
Chapter 24 Leave No Stone Unturned
An Easter Challenge For Christians
I HAVE AN EASTER challenge for Christians. My challenge is simply
this: tell me what happened on Easter. I am not asking for proof.
My straightforward request is merely that Christians tell me
exactly what happened on the day that their most important
doctrine was born.
Believers should eagerly take up this challenge, since without
the resurrection, there is no Christianity. Paul wrote, "And if
Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith
is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God;
because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom
he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not." (I
Corinthians 15:14-15)
The conditions of the challenge are simple and reasonable. In
each of the four Gospels, begin at Easter morning and read to the
end of the book: Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21.
Also read Acts 1:3-12 and Paul's tiny version of the story in I
Corinthians 15:3-8. These 165 verses can be read in a few
moments. Then, without omitting a single detail from these
separate accounts, write a simple, chronological narrative of the
events between the resurrection and the ascension: what happened
first, second, and so on; who said what, when; and where these
things happened.
Since the gospels do not always give precise times of day, it is
permissible to make educated guesses. The narrative does not have
to pretend to present a perfect picture--it only needs to give at
least one plausible account of all of the facts. Additional
explanation of the narrative may be set apart in parentheses. The
important condition to the challenge, however, is that not one
single biblical detail be omitted. Fair enough?
I have tried this challenge myself. I failed. An Assembly of God
minister whom I was debating a couple of years ago on a Florida
radio show loudly proclaimed over the air that he would send me
the narrative in a few days. I am still waiting. After my debate
at the University of Wisconsin, "Jesus of Nazareth: Messiah or
Myth," a Lutheran graduate student told me he accepted the
challenge and would be contacting me in about a week. I have
never heard from him. Both of these people, and others, agreed
that the request was reasonable and crucial. Maybe they are slow
readers.
Many bible stories are given only once or twice, and are
therefore hard to confirm. The author of Matthew, for example,
was the only one to mention that at the crucifixion dead people
emerged from the graves of Jerusalem, walking around showing
themselves to everyone--an amazing event that could hardly escape
the notice of the other Gospel writers, or any other historians
of the period. But though the silence of others might weaken the
likelihood of a story, it does not disprove it. Disconfirmation
comes with contradictions.
Thomas Paine tackled this matter two hundred years ago in The Age
of Reason, stumbling across dozens of New Testament
discrepancies: "I lay it down as a position which cannot be
controverted," he wrote, "first, that the agreement of all the
parts of a story does not prove that story to be true, because
the parts may agree and the whole may be false; secondly, that
the disagreement of the parts of a story proves the whole cannot
be true."
Since Easter is told by five different writers, it gives one of
the best chances to confirm or disconfirm the account. Christians
should welcome the opportunity. ....
The following was included as an attachement. Please use UUDECODE
to retrieve it. The original file name was 'EASTER.TXT'.
begin 666 EASTER.TXT
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`
end
------------------------------
From: Mark O'Brien <Mark_O'Brien@dts.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 15:28:59 CST
Subject: Re: Ro 1:21 -- DIOTI GNONTES TON QEON
Original message sent on Tue, Jul 25 12:47 PM by me:
> Considering the context, what does DIOTI GNONTES TON QEON mean?
> Is this passage being addressed to believers, instead of the
> traditionally assumed unbeliever? Dr. Craig Blaising once challenged
> me to think this through, but I would be interested in any input from
> y'all.
Allow me to explain myself a little more... Ro 1:18ff is usually taken
to be referring to unbelievers, and is a favourite text for apologists.
However, considering v.21 comment that DIOTI GNONTES TON QEON,
is this necessarily the best way to intepret who this passage is talking
about. Are they unbelievers or disobedient believers? Does this at
all tie in with some of the discussion regarding church discipline in
1Co 5?
Mark O'Brien
Dallas Theological Seminary
- ----
------------------------------
From: "Gregory Jordan (ENG)" <jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 17:21:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Jesus a disciple
On Mon, 24 Jul 1995, Larry W. Hurtado wrote:
> On the question of Jesus' historical relationship to John the Bap., see
> the fine study of the latter figure: R. L. Webb, _John the Baptizer and
> Prophet: A Socio-Historical Study_ (JSNTSup 62; Sheffield:JSOT Press, 1991).
Thanks for the reference.
> BTW, I see nothing "blasphemous" about the suggestion that Jesus
> was a disciple of the Baptist, nor do I see evidence that earlier
> Christians saw the possibility as blasphemous. Some may have
> considered it unpleasant or even potentially misleading, but I reserve
> "blasphemous" for defined uses.
I would think "blasphemy" in the sense of insulting to one's dignity is a
fair description of describing a leader as a follower. The Synoptics and
John both bend over backwards to explain how Jesus the Messiah could
possibly have followed the lead of a mere prophet. I'm not aware of any
early Christian writer who describes Jesus as a disciple of John the
Baptist, although I'm sure I will hear if there is...:)
Greg Jordan
jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #798
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