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b-greek-digest V1 #852
b-greek-digest Friday, 8 September 1995 Volume 01 : Number 852
In this issue:
Date: 07 Sep 1995 06:33:22 GMT
Re:
Re: BAGD (was Re: PRWTH in Lk2:2)
Re: PRWTH in Lk2:2
Re:
LEGAL ACTION ????
Re: Syn. Apoc. (Parable of the Fig Tree)
Re: LEGAL ACTION ????
Re: Curriculum for children
Re: PRWTH in Lk2:2
Re: PRWTH in Lk2:2
Re: PRWTH in Lk2:2
Galatians 1:10 (?)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Claes Mjornheim <Claes_Mjornheim@online.idg.se>
Date: 07 Sep 1995 06:33:22 GMT
Subject: Date: 07 Sep 1995 06:33:22 GMT
HELP
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 05:45:41 -0500
Subject: Re:
At 1:33 AM 9/7/95, Claes Mjornheim wrote:
>HELP
It might be just a little bit easier to help if we knew what help was
wanted. This message has come to two lists to which I subscribe thus far
and is equally enigmatic on both.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 05:46:04 -0500
Subject: Re: BAGD (was Re: PRWTH in Lk2:2)
At 10:20 PM 9/6/95, Stephen Carlson wrote:
>I agree with what Kenneth Litwak wrote, and although he does not accuse
>me of those abuses he identified, I feel I must clarify the situation
>lest others draw such an inference.
>
>First off, Ken's point about the necessity to take such reference works
>as BAGD critically is very important and I agree with it.
The note that Stephen cited is interesting. I would add that, however
valuable LSJ may be, one should not take IT as "gospel" either. I remember
vividly a grad school experience in which a young Brit teaching a Greek
composition class raked us beginning grad students over the coals with the
words, "You Americans have a dangerous readiness to accept at face value
anything that you see in print, and particularly in a reference work." We
always hope that our reference works are not misleading us, but as Stephen
and Ken have noted, they can offer us, so far as word-meanings are
concerned, informed opinions at best, but opinions nonetheless. I'm
certainly looking forward to the new edition of BAGD which, we've been
informed by Edgar Krentz, was delivered by Fred Danker some time ago and is
now in the press at Chicago; it should certainly be better than the last
edition, but its authority will still have a relativity. I've found one of
the nicer features of it in the past to be bibliographic references to
discussions of usage of controversial words (or I should say, of words in
controversial passages).
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: David Moore <dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 09:41:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: PRWTH in Lk2:2
Does anyone know what is the reading of the D (05) manuscript in
this verse? Nestle indicates it has a slight, undocumented variant in
the phrase EGENETO PRWTH. I'd be especially interested to know whether
PRWTH is written PRWTHS.
Thanks,
David L. Moore Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida of the Assemblies of God
dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Department of Education
------------------------------
From: Stephen Carlson <scc@reston.icl.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 95 9:15:50 EDT
Subject: Re:
Carl W. Conrad wrote:
> At 1:33 AM 9/7/95, Claes Mjornheim wrote:
> >HELP
>
> It might be just a little bit easier to help if we knew what help was
> wanted. This message has come to two lists to which I subscribe thus far
> and is equally enigmatic on both.
The message "HELP" appears to be a listserv or majordomo command.
However, it has been sent to the wrong address. It should have been
sent to the majordomo@virginia.edu address. Perhaps the mailing
list software ought to be enhanced to detect misaddressed control
messages like this one.
Stephen Carlson
- --
Stephen Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations, : ICL, Inc.
scc@reston.icl.com : and songs chant the words. : 11490 Commerce Park Dr.
(703) 648-3330 : Shujing 2:35 : Reston, VA 22091 USA
------------------------------
From: Bob Allisat <ab330@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 11:16:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: LEGAL ACTION ????
I have been trying to get off of your
NT-GREEK mailing list for some weeks
now. Please remove my E-Mail address
from it. The subscribe message was a
forgery. Do I have to resort to legal
action to rid my account of your un-
wanted messages?
Thank you in advance,
Bob Allisat
ab330@torfree.net or ab330@freenet.toronto.on.ca
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 10:25:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Syn. Apoc. (Parable of the Fig Tree)
At 6:48 PM 9/6/95, WINBROW@aol.com wrote:
>A number of people have pointed out the fact that while Luke does not have
>the cursing of the fig tree, he does hav the parable of the fig tree in
>13:6-9 that makes the same point as the cursing of the fig tree in Mark. Did
>Luke incounter the parable in the tradition and the cursing in Mark and
>decide he needed only one as he does the feeding of the multitude or did Mark
>(or someone before him) find the parable and transform it into a dramatic or
>acted parable?
Carlton, this is wonderful! I think that I know Mark pretty well, but I
readily discover that there are vast stretches of Luke and Matthew apart
from the major complexes that are like terra incognita to me! How
embarassing!
I really need to check out what people who have dealt with this have to
say. On the surface it looks quite possible that Luke is presenting what
may be the oldest form of the tradition, and that Mark, seeing its meanings
linked to his triumphal entry/cleansing of temple/challenge to
authorities/little apocalypse-sequence has re-shaped it as a symbolic frame
for the cleansing of the temple and combined it with that little passage on
efficacious prayer. Alternatively, of course, it's possible that Luke or an
earlier stage of oral tradition has assimilated this parable to the Parable
of the Wicked Husbandmen. But this may in fact be the earliest form of the
tradition retained in integrity in Luke's separate material. It hardly
seems likely to be a back-composition from the Marcan material in chapter
11. I'd be very interested in learning what others think about this.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: UVa postmaster account <upostmst@virginia.edu>
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 12:10:06 EDT
Subject: Re: LEGAL ACTION ????
The list name has changed from nt-greek to b-greek some time
ago. I have removed you from the list.
Postmaster@Virginia.edu
> Received: from danforth.torfree.net by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa17012;
> 7 Sep 95 11:19 EDT
> Received: from queen.torfree.net ([199.71.188.22]) by mail.torfree.net
> (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94)
> via sendmail with smtp id <m0sqihK-000LZxC@mail.torfree.net>
> for <root@virginia.edu>; Thu, 7 Sep 95 11:17 EDT
> Received: by queen.torfree.net (Smail3.1.28.1 #6)
> id m0sqihI-0006zdC; Thu, 7 Sep 95 11:17 EDT
> Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 11:16:59 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Bob Allisat <ab330@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
> Subject: LEGAL ACTION ????
> To: Stephen Carlson <scc@reston.icl.com>
> cc: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>,
> Claes_Mjornheim@online.idg.se, NT-GREEK@virginia.edu,
> postmaster@virginia.edu, root@virginia.edu, majordomo@virginia.edu
> In-Reply-To: <9509071315.AA06030@ropes.reston.icl.com>
> Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9509071156.B994-0100000@queen>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> Status: ORf
>
>
>
> I have been trying to get off of your
> NT-GREEK mailing list for some weeks
> now. Please remove my E-Mail address
> from it. The subscribe message was a
> forgery. Do I have to resort to legal
> action to rid my account of your un-
> wanted messages?
>
> Thank you in advance,
>
> Bob Allisat
>
> ab330@torfree.net or ab330@freenet.toronto.on.ca
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 15:42:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Curriculum for children
Timothy Smith wrote,
>Does anyone know of a curriculum that I could use to begin >teaching my
seven
>year old daughter Koine or Attic Greek? I know that there are >some
>materials available for teaching elementary age children >modern languages,
>such as Spanish. Does anyone know of material that would >work for ancient
>Greek?
I would suggest with young children and even high school students who want to
eventually learn Greek start them in modern Greek. Some of the best tools
for that come from D.C. Divry 293 Seventh Ave., New York. They have
beginning grammars and special reading books that start out with simple "see
Dick run" sentences. It is primarily inductive and would be easy for
children, using songs, poems, stories, etc.
Carlton Winbery
Prof. Rel.
LA College Pineville, La.
------------------------------
From: David Moore <dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 15:46:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: PRWTH in Lk2:2
On Thu, 7 Sep 1995 WINBROW@aol.com wrote:
> I think that the order of the two words are reversed in D.
> Carlton Winbery
>
Yes, the Nestle apparatus on Lk. 2:2 indicates that the order of
the two words is reversed in both Aleph and D. It is the parentheses
around D in the apparatus on this particular phrase that interest me. On
p. 54* of the introduction in the Nestle 27th edition, there is an
explanation of parentheses that appear in the apparatus. As I understand
this section of the Introduction, it is saying that the parentheses
indicate a minor difference from the main variant. So I wonder how D
differs (in a minor way) from Aleph, in this phrase.
David L. Moore Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida of the Assemblies of God
dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Department of Education
------------------------------
From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 1995 15:09:25 CST
Subject: Re: PRWTH in Lk2:2
On Thu, 7 Sep 1995, David Moore wrote:
>On Thu, 7 Sep 1995 WINBROW@aol.com wrote:
>
>> I think that the order of the two words are reversed in D.
>> Carlton Winbery
>>
>
> Yes, the Nestle apparatus on Lk. 2:2 indicates that the order of
>the two words is reversed in both Aleph and D. It is the parentheses
>around D in the apparatus on this particular phrase that interest me. On
>p. 54* of the introduction in the Nestle 27th edition, there is an
>explanation of parentheses that appear in the apparatus. As I understand
>this section of the Introduction, it is saying that the parentheses
>indicate a minor difference from the main variant. So I wonder how D
>differs (in a minor way) from Aleph, in this phrase.
According to von Soden, EGENETO is placed before APOGRAFH in D ("Iad5 ~ EG. a
APOG."), giving the order hAUTH EGENETO APOGRAFH PRWTH hHGEMONEUONTOS.
********************************************************************************
Bruce Terry E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station Phone: 915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699 Fax: 915/674-3769
********************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: David Moore <dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 19:21:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: PRWTH in Lk2:2
On Thu, 7 Sep 1995, Bruce Terry wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Sep 1995, David Moore wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 7 Sep 1995 WINBROW@aol.com wrote:
> >
> >> I think that the order of the two words are reversed in D.
> >> Carlton Winbery
> >>
> >
> > Yes, the Nestle apparatus on Lk. 2:2 indicates that the order of
> >the two words is reversed in both Aleph and D. It is the parentheses
> >around D in the apparatus on this particular phrase that interest me. On
> >p. 54* of the introduction in the Nestle 27th edition, there is an
> >explanation of parentheses that appear in the apparatus. As I understand
> >this section of the Introduction, it is saying that the parentheses
> >indicate a minor difference from the main variant. So I wonder how D
> >differs (in a minor way) from Aleph, in this phrase.
>
> According to von Soden, EGENETO is placed before APOGRAFH in D ("Iad5 ~ EG. a
> APOG."), giving the order hAUTH EGENETO APOGRAFH PRWTH hHGEMONEUONTOS.
>
>
Thanks, Bruce. That clears up the matter I was asking about.
David L. Moore Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida of the Assemblies of God
dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Department of Education
------------------------------
From: JClar100@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 22:15:59 -0400
Subject: Galatians 1:10 (?)
I have found your several remarks regarding Galatians 1:10 very interesting.
I think I have a better understanding of the verse after your comments and
after personally taking time to read the commentaries of Calvin and Luther on
this verse, along with some others, eg., Spence (last century).
Question: Can "peithw" mean either "persuade" or "please"? I ask this
because the NRSV translates the first part of the verse "Am I now seeking
human approval, or God's?" "Seeking human approval" is diffferent from
"'persuading' or 'convincing' according to men or God?" and/or "persuading
men or God?"
At the same time, in the translation should a greater distinction be made
between "peithw" (v. 10 -- first question) and "areskein" (v. 10 -- second
question)? Is there any diffference between "seeking human approval" and
"seeking to please men?" Is the second question simply a repeating of the
first, absent the reference to "theos." If so, is there a significance in
the use of the two different words? If not, why not make a stronger
distinction between the two in the English translation?
This is not a critique of the NRSV per se. It just points up my continuing
efforts to understand the original language so I can make a reasoned decision
for myself.
Thanks!
JClar100@aol.com
James Clardy
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #852
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