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b-greek-digest V1 #885
b-greek-digest Tuesday, 3 October 1995 Volume 01 : Number 885
In this issue:
Re: A TC Question
Re: Greek numerals? (fwd)
re: Greek numerals? (fwd)
Re: Comments on Greek lexicons, updated
Re: Greek numerals? (fwd)
Re: Books on the Synoptic Problem
re: Greek numerals? (fwd)
Re: Greek numerals? (fwd)
Re: Greek numerals? (fwd)
Re: Comments on Greek lexicons
[none]
Re: subscription
Numerology, & Insane Anglo Warlord
Re: Greek numerals? (fwd)
Re: Need help
Re: Numerology, & Insane Anglo Warlord
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: turquoyz <turquoyz@databank.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 16:06:54 -0500
Subject: Re: A TC Question
What Sturz is doing is asking why those that adulate the Egyptian text-type
still prefer the WH/Nestle readings when there are Byzantine readings in
P46. When confronted with a Byzantine reading, Black, Aland, Metzger &
company still prefer Codex Sinaiticus/ Vaticanus readings. Sturz' conclusion
from bits and pieces of Byzantine text in "supposedly" neutral texts, is
that the Byzantine text-type is as old, if not older than the Western &
Egyptian texts, and therefore not a conflation. Sturz has done much work in
this area. Also Farstad & Hodges on their Majority Text.
Warm regards,
Jim Williams
- -----------------------------------------------------------
>I have been doing a little work lately in trying to understand the
>Independent Text-type theory for evaluating textual problems.
>Although I understand what Harry Sturz is doing with keeping the
>text-types independent and of equal value, and his pushing back of the
>Byzantine type to a much earlier and respectable date, I am curious
>as to exactly what he does with internal evidence in his evaluations.
>How does he deal with conflations or readings that appear to be
>mixtures? Perhaps the simplest answer is that he doesn't consider
>them to be conflations or mixtures, but I was interested in seeing
>whether any of you NTTC folks had any insights into the strengths and
>weaknesses of this method. Thanks.
>
>Mark O'Brien
>----
>"I'm going somewhere where the unexceptional are not expected to excel beyond
>all expectations." -- Piglet
>
>
------------------------------
From: Will Wagers <wagers@computek.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 16:12:32 -0600
Subject: Re: Greek numerals? (fwd)
No, they did have some "numerals", but it is true that the letters have
numerical values and are even found in computations.
Will
>A good friend writes:
>
>Mari, we have a Sunday morning adult ed class for choir members that's
>being taught by a nice guy from the choir [stuff deleted]. [Y]esterday
>he told us that next week he would talk about something called
>"theomatics", which apparently is a sort of
>numerology. As I understand it, people who espouse this assert that
>none of the three Biblical languages (I assume he means Hebrew,
>Aramaic, and koine Greek) has numerals and that instead they assign
>number values to their alphabetic characters. (I guess where he's
>going to go from here is to show that there are amazing things based
>on the number values of words in the Bible, the idea being that only
>God could have planned something so complicated).
>
>What I'm wondering is this: is it true that Greek had no numerals?
>Jim can't remember one way or another, and I can't find my Greek
>textbook.
>
>[stuff deleted]
>
>Anyone have information on 'theomatics', or can otherwise read between
>the lines of this to help her? You can answer to me, and I'll forward
>it on (I'm curious, too).
Will wagers@computer.net
------------------------------
From: Eric Weiss <eweiss@acf.dhhs.gov>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 95 17:11:00 -24000
Subject: re: Greek numerals? (fwd)
THEOMATICS is the title of the book written by Jerry Lucas, former basketball
star (college? pro?), married to Sherrilee Lucas, Christian singer (at one
time). He devised a memory system using pictures for memorizing the entire
New Testament, though it was only published (as REMEMBER THE WORD) for the 4
gospels. I used it at one time and successfully memorized Matthew and 1/2 of
John, but stopped doing the hour-a-day review I needed to retain it, and
consequently lost what I had learned.
The book may still be in print; I got my copy at a used book store. The
thesis is that set patterns of words, or repetitions of significant words,
are encoded in the text of the New Testament. I'd have to read the book to
remember much more than that. It's interesting that the current issue of
Bible Review (hardly a conservative magazine)--the one I got in the mail last
week (it may not be on the newsstands yet)--has an article about much the
same thing with respect to the Torah, and how some respected scientists in
Israel, I believe, did a scientifically and statistically valid series of
studies proving this phenomenon in 1988, but their results were ignored
because no one wanted to admit the compelling proof they were offering that
the Torah's source was not human. The renegade "scholar," archeologist and
former Baptist minister but now adherent of the 2-covenant theory and a
strong proponent of rabbinic interpretation of the scriptures--Vendyl Jones
from here in Arlington, Texas--publishes a newsletter, and his most recent
issue deals with this same subject of the "Torah codes"--though his
discussion is much more vehement and passionate.
I, too, would like to know what anyone out there thinks of Lucas' THEOMATICS
and the "Torah codes" hypothesis with its demonstration of hidden names in
the Torah, names which could not have been known to the biblical author(s).
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 16:58:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Comments on Greek lexicons, updated
At 3:56 PM 10/2/95, turquoyz wrote:
>What? No mention of Kittel???
>-----------------------------------------------
>
> EDWARD C. HOBBS on GREEK LEXICA
I'm just curious as to why it was thought necessary to reproduce all 18K of
Edward Hobbs' original message. Was it to prove that he actually didn't
mention Kittel?
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 16:59:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Greek numerals? (fwd)
At 3:57 PM 10/2/95, Mari Olsen wrote:
>What I'm wondering is this: is it true that Greek had no numerals?
>Jim can't remember one way or another, and I can't find my Greek
>textbook.
I learned cardinals, hEIS/MIA/hEN, DUW, TREIS, TETTARES/TETTARA; PENTE,
hEKS, hEPTA, OKTW, ENNEA, DEKA, hENDEKA, KTL. and ordinals,PRWTOS,
DEUTEROS, TRITOS, TETARTOS, and er ..., er ... At any rate, yes, there
certainly were numerals in Greek--and in Latin too. Both Greeks and Romans
certainly used letters as numeral digits (even retaining some old letters
as numeral digits that had lost their function in a phonetic alphabet).
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 18:40:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Books on the Synoptic Problem
Stephen Carlson wrote:
>In a cross-posting to B-GREEK, a reference was made to books >attacking or
supporting the most widely held solution to the >Synoptic Problem, viz. the
Two-Source Hypothesis (2SH). I'm >asking this list for some books that
support the 2SH.
(omission)
>Two modern works are very good, but they are explicitly >"neutral" on the
question: Bellinzoni's anthology, THE >TWO-SOURCE HYPOTHESIS: A Critical
Reappraisal, which is >out of print, and David Neville's ARGUMENTS FROM ORDER
IN >SYNOPTIC SOURCE CRITICISM.
>So what I'm asking is: if there are books out there defending >the 2SH, what
are they?
I still think that one of the best short statements about Mark as the first
gospel written and the dependence of Matt. & Luke is by G.M. Styler in the
fourth excursus in C.F.D. Moule, The Birth of the NT. The best textbook for
a study of the Synoptic relationships is Aland, Synopsis Quattour
Evangeliorum. The old Huck-Lietzmann, Synopse Der Drei Ersten Evangelien
served me very well. One needs to translate these gospels paragraph by
paragraph side by side before one forms a fixed opinion on the question. I
once saw a claim, for instance, that Matthew had reduced Mark's historical
presents from 150 to 72. The fact is that some of those 150 historical
presents are not in parallel material. Matthew also has 26 historical
presents in Matthean material that is not parallel to Markan material. So he
got some from somewhere else or introduced them himself.
Allen Barr, A Diagram of Synoptic Relationships is a handy tool to have at
hand when evaluating secondary works on the subject.
Carlton Winbery
LA College, Pineville, LA
------------------------------
From: Nichael Cramer <nichael@sover.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 19:23:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: re: Greek numerals? (fwd)
On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, Eric Weiss wrote:
> THEOMATICS is the title of the book written by Jerry Lucas, former basketball
> star (college? pro?), married to Sherrilee Lucas, Christian singer (at one
> time). He devised a memory system using pictures for memorizing the entire
> New Testament, though it was only published (as REMEMBER THE WORD) for the 4
> gospels.
Tiniest of footnotes: Although _Remember the Word_ *strongly* implies
otherwise, Lucas definitely did not invent the memory system in his
book. I have at home a book by someone called Furst from the '40s which
lays out the same system; and I suspect even Furst simply adapted a system
that predates him.
(Forgive me for nit-picking, but I was pretty steamed when I first
discovered this blatant misrepresentation.)
> The book may still be in print; I got my copy at a used book store. The
> thesis is that set patterns of words, or repetitions of significant words,
> are encoded in the text of the New Testament. I'd have to read the book to
> remember much more than that.
Repetition and set patterns in and of themselves shouldn't be too
surprising. As you've noted here, there are clearly a boon to
memorization. This was, of course, one the standard tools of the
Rhapsodes who chanted Homer before the ancient festivals.
> ... It's interesting that the current issue of
> Bible Review (hardly a conservative magazine)--the one I got in the mail last
> week (it may not be on the newsstands yet)--has an article about much the
> same thing with respect to the Torah, and how some respected scientists in
> Israel, I believe, did a scientifically and statistically valid series of
> studies proving this phenomenon in 1988, but their results were ignored
> because no one wanted to admit the compelling proof they were offering that
> the Torah's source was not human. [...]
> I, too, would like to know what anyone out there thinks of Lucas' THEOMATICS
> and the "Torah codes" hypothesis with its demonstration of hidden names in
> the Torah, names which could not have been known to the biblical author(s).
I too read the BR article and have been trying to chase down a copy of the
original article. The author of the BR article --in his obvious
enthusiasm-- leaves a number of unanswered questions. Perhaps the
original article makes a better case, but on the basis of the BR article I
think "demonstartion" or "compelling proof" is perhaps stating the case a
little too strongly.
N
------------------------------
From: "Michael I. Bushnell, p/BSG" <mib@gnu.ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 19:57:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Greek numerals? (fwd)
Content-Length: 1240
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 16:12:32 -0600
From: Will Wagers <wagers@computek.net>
No, they did have some "numerals", but it is true that the letters have
numerical values and are even found in computations.
They did have numerals: the letters of the Greek alphabet were used as
numerals.
They did not have any numerals except for letters; there were two
numerals that are not part of the classic Greek alphabet, but that's
only because they had fallen out of use in spelling words (much like
English thorn and yodh).
For example, the Greek text of Euclid uses letters as numerals.
Michael
------------------------------
From: "James D. Ernest" <ernest@mv.mv.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 20:32:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Greek numerals? (fwd)
alpha through iota, with stigma thrown in for six, represent
one through ten. Then kappa is 20, lambda is 30, etc. I think
koppa (like stigma obsolete in the literature we have) is used
somewhere. Greek also has another system I never learned. All
this is in Smyth and the other school grammars. As for adding
up values to get meanings: you can see that this concept was
not foreign to all biblical writers from the 666 thing in
Revelation; but the fact that it occurs in the apocalyptic-like
book of Revelation doesn't mean that it occurs anywhere else.
I would attach about as much significance to amazing combinations
conjured up by anyone as to Richard Lederer's observation that
the letters of Ronald Wilson Reagan's name can be rearranged to
spell Insane Anglo Warlord. (Let the reader understand.)
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
James D. Ernest Joint Doctoral Program
Manchester, New Hampshire, USA Andover-Newton/Boston College
Internet: ernest@mv.mv.com Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts
------------------------------
From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 19:02:32 +0800
Subject: Re: Comments on Greek lexicons
I can't speak for anyone else, but I get lots of email and my mailbox
has a memory limit. It would be appreciated if I didn't get huge posts
with only one new line added. Thanks.
Ken Litwak
Sybase, Inc.
Emeryville, CA
------------------------------
From: TERRY DWAIN ROBERTSON <trobert1@sun1.iusb.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 21:11:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [none]
help
------------------------------
From: TERRY DWAIN ROBERTSON <trobert1@sun1.iusb.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 21:15:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: subscription
Subscribe Robertson Terry
------------------------------
From: Edward Hobbs <EHOBBS@wellesley.edu>
Date: Mon, 02 Oct 1995 22:20:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Numerology, & Insane Anglo Warlord
Ah, but if you notice that RONALD WILSON REAGAN has 6 letters + 6 letters
+ 6 letters (=666), then Lederer's anagram just MIGHT be true/right/
compelling/demonstrated. (I learned this duirng his 1966 campaign for
governor of California, while I was in Berkeley.)
Roughly about 1937, a chap named (Ivan?) Panin published a book
called "Amazing New Discoveries!", which made a deep impression on a
young boy (the undersigned), as you can tell from my remembering even the title
and the author's name (I THINK his first name was Ivan). He showed that
if you add up letters and words and verses and the like, there are
unbelievable arrangements of 3's, 7's, etc., which prove that God inspired
the Bible. Ernest Cadman Colwell, later President of the University of
Chicago (and my teacher in textual criticism), immediately wrote a demon-
stration of the inspiration of the recent novel "Gone With the Wind."
"Its first sentence has 21 words, three 7's, the second, 28 words or four
7's. Add these together and you get seven 7's. The third sentence has
3 nouns. The first paragraph has 4x7 nouns, 7 proper adjectives, and
nine (3x3) adverbs." Etc., etc. He applied the same technique as Panin
used to Ignatius' letter to the Ephesians, and found a plethora of
3's and 7's.
I personally know that Shakespeare wrote Psalm 46. He often
spelled his name "Shakspeare," or Shak-speare, 4 and 6 letters; we go to
Psalm 46, therefore, and find that the 46th word from the beginning
is "Shake" and the 46th from the end is "spear". Q.E.D.
A very weary,
and oft-disappointed-counter-of letters and words,
Edward
------------------------------
From: Will Wagers <wagers@computek.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 22:09:14 -0600
Subject: Re: Greek numerals? (fwd)
In addition to writing the words for numbers out in full, in ancient texts,
there are three primary classes of numerical notation system:
1. sign systems (conventional symbols - including simple straight
marks for ones),
2. acrophonic systems (initial letter of the name of a number
represents number),
3. alphabetic system (alphabetic characters serve as numbers, e.g.
deka -> delta = 10).
In Sumerian and Babylonian, ideographic symbols are used a bit like
wedge-shaped, Roman
numerals.
In Ugaritic and Phoenician, ideographic symbols (like Sumerian and
Babylonian) and written
words are used.
In Egyptian hieroglyphic texts, ideographic symbols are used, as in
cuneiform texts.
In Hebrew texts, the words are written out in full. There is some evidence
of symbolic
numbers. Around the second century BCE, the alphabetic notation appears.
In the Old Covenant, Hebrew and Aramaic numbers are written out in word
form. Alphabetic
systems are not used. (However, there is some evidence of its use
and subsequent
misinterpretation).
In Greek, we find the achrophonic system, which yields to the alphabetic
system about
300 BCE. Possibly a Greek invention, the alphabetic system requires
special
punctuation, e.g. spaces on boths sides of the number, an overline
over it, or some
other special punctuation symbol. (Minoan also uses modified
symbols to represent
powers). Of couse, numbers can also be written out in full.
Regarding Mr. Bushnell's criticism, I was trying to use "numerals" in the
same sense as the questioner. (You can see that it is in quotes.) In the
query, "numeral" appears to mean special symbols for numbers which are
distinguishable from alphabetic characters. To my knowledge, the combined
Greek signs {like pente (5) overstrike delta (10) = 50} are not used in any
other way and are therefore distinguishable from alphanumerals. Certainly,
the early sign systems contain symbols which are not (purely) alphabetic.
If one restricts the enquiry to the classical Greek alphabet, then Mr.
Bushnell appears correct.
Sincerely,
Will
- ------------------------------------------------
> From: Will Wagers <wagers@computek.net>
>
> No, they did have some "numerals", but it is true that the letters have
> numerical values and are even found in computations.
>
>They did have numerals: the letters of the Greek alphabet were used as
>numerals.
>
>They did not have any numerals except for letters; there were two
>numerals that are not part of the classic Greek alphabet, but that's
>only because they had fallen out of use in spelling words (much like
>English thorn and yodh).
>
>For example, the Greek text of Euclid uses letters as numerals.
>
>Michael
Will wagers@computer.net
------------------------------
From: Ron Stephens <clcc@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 19:58:13 -0700
Subject: Re: Need help
At 12:28 PM 10/2/95, Paul Watkins wrote:
>I'm sorry I'm sending this to the Bible list instead of the Greek list, but for
>some reason my server keeps on telling me that my b-greek@virginia.edu address
>is invalid. Anyone know why? I hope there might be somebody on this list that
>can answer my questions.
>
>I have two questions. One, what is the theological ramifications of "eike
>episteusate" in 1 Cor. 15:2? Exactly what is meant by "eike" and how does that
>fit in with othodox epistemology? It appears to present a theological delimma
>to the whosoever-believes-is-saved orthodoxy. I would appreciate an
>exegesis of
>verses 1 and 2, if it isn't too much trouble.
>
>As my knowledge of Greek grammar is not yet sufficient to answer this next
>question, please forgive my ignorance: in Hebrews 10:26 where does the word
>"if" come in? "Ekousiws gar hamartanontwn hemwn" (am I spelling that right in
>English?) - is it inherent in the declension of one of those words? If so,
>which class does the protasis fall into? Theologically, I would expect a 2nd
>class condition but I'm not knowledgable enough to determine if that is so.
>
>Please write to me directly, as I am not currently subscribed to the list.
>
>
>Paul Watkins
>Grace College and Seminary
>
In His service,
Ron Stephens / CLCC@pacifier.com
"Jesus is alive, Elvis isn't"
------------------------------
From: Tony Prete <tonyp@waterw.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 23:44:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Numerology, & Insane Anglo Warlord
Thank you for a hearty laugh late at night after hours of pouring over Gal.
1:12-16 (or there-abouts) to demonstrate that Paul experienced a calling,
not a conversion on Damascus Road.
Of course, I also appreciate all your scholarly posts. But I *expect*
that--it's the sense of humor that was such a pleasant surprise. I go to bed
contented.
Tony
Haddonfield, NJ
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #885
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