[Prev][Next][Index][Thread]
b-greek-digest V1 #934
b-greek-digest Tuesday, 31 October 1995 Volume 01 : Number 934
In this issue:
Re: Anonymous posting on textual criticism
Re: rom 7.18-25
"Perfect"?
Re: Periphrastic Aorist
Re: "Perfect"?
Re: Periphrastic Aorist
More on FlashWorks
Re: Periphrastic Aorist
Re: "Perfect"?
Re: Periphrastic Aorist
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael W. Holmes" <holmic@homer.acs.bethel.edu>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 09:03:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Anonymous posting on textual criticism
It is clear from David Moore's posting that he (unlike the anonymous
poster) has carefully read Colwell, and his comments are helpful. But
before we waste any more time going back and forth with generalizations
about the longer vs. the shorter text, and which is to be preferred,
etc., may I suggest that in NT textual criticism, generalizations aren't
worth much, since they apply "all other factors being equal"--which is,
as we all know, virtually never. Generalizations (even if they hold true
95-98% of the time) have no predictive value--that is, there is no way
they can tell one in advance whether the next variant one considers fits
the generalization or is the exception. This means, as several diff
textual critics have said in one form or another, that in any particular
case, "the variant most likely to be original is the one that best
accounts for the origin of all competing variants, in terms of both
external and internal evidence." (Ehrman and Holmes, The Text of the NT
in Contemporary Research, pp. 344-345). Generalizations are helpful
mostly when there is nothing else to go on in making a decision; that is,
in the absence of decisive evidence, one may, having nothing else to go
on, follow a generalization rather than flip a coin. But note that the
generalization comes into play only after an examination of the
particular case, not before. This brings me back to my initial point
about the lack of predictive ability on the part of generalizations, and
hence their general lack of usefulness.
So much for a generalization about generalizations....
Mike Holmes
------------------------------
From: Christian Diederichs <christiand@uranus.central.de>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 95 20:09 MET
Subject: Re: rom 7.18-25
On Sunday, 29 Oct 1995, Bruce Terry wrote:
>On Fri, 27 Oct 1995, Kenneth Litwak wrote:
>
>> Just a quick note on a very difficult passage, which has consumed
>>gallons of ink. There are several different views of what is going on
>>in Romans 7
>>1. It is autobiographical, before conversion
>>2. It refers to humans in general
>>3. It refers to Israel
>>4. It is autobiographical, after conversion
>
>add:
>5. It refers to humans, including Paul, apart from the Spirit of God
add:
6. It refers to all Christian believers
(Luther's opinion: the believer as 'simul iustus et peccator')
7. It refers to Adam's fall ('Suendenfall' as we call it in German) in Rom
7:7-13 and to the consequences of his fall in Rom 7:14-25
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christian Diederichs, Goettingen (Germany)
------------------------------
From: "Scott E. Blades" <scot672@dtc.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 20:44:23 GMT
Subject: "Perfect"?
Greetings,
I am not a greek scholar so I am fish out of water here, but I could think
of no better place to get an answer to my question. Please forgive my
intrustion and I will be out of your way as soon as possible.
My question:
What is the greek word for "perfect" in the verse below and what does it mean?
I Corinthians 13:10
"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall
be done away."
Thank you for your time,
Scott Blades
scot672@dtc.net
Wichita, KS
------------------------------
From: "Carlton L. Winbery" <winberyc@linknet.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:02:21 -0600
Subject: Re: Periphrastic Aorist
A further response to Jim Mcquire's question;
>1) Where is the rule that the periphrastic aorist consists of the imperfect
>of EIMI with the aorist participle? Cannot the present of EIMI be used?
> There may be one, but I am unaware of any such rule.
If you checked every reference in Robertson (that takes some doing) you
could see the forms he observes in periphrastic constructions. An easier
way to see all the forms would be to get a copy of Brooks and Winbery
Morphology of the NT and check the following pages: 196-198, 207, 209,
220, 225, 242, 249, 254, 259, 262, 264-265. In these pages you would see
that the
present periphrastic involves the present of EIMI + the present ptc.
imperfect peri. " imperfect of EIMI + the present ptc.
future peri. " future of EIMI + the present ptc.
aorist peri. " imperfect of EIMI + aorist ptc.
perfect peri. " present of EIMI + perfect ptc.
pluperfect peri. " imperfect of EIMI + perfect ptc.
Funk in the Hellenistic Grammar in vol. II Syntax indicates that "The
periphrastic form often gives emphasis to continued, repeated or habitual
action." This would be the reason that both the present and the aorist
appears infrequently as periphrastic constructions.
Carlton Winbery
Prof. NT & Greek
LA College,
Pineville,La
winberyc@linknet.net
fax (318) 442-4996
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:23:13 -0600
Subject: Re: "Perfect"?
At 2:44 PM 10/30/95, Scott E. Blades wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>I am not a greek scholar so I am fish out of water here, but I could think
>of no better place to get an answer to my question. Please forgive my
>intrustion and I will be out of your way as soon as possible.
>
>My question:
>
>What is the greek word for "perfect" in the verse below and what does it mean?
>
>I Corinthians 13:10
>"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall
>be done away."
The adjective is TELEIOS, TELEIA, TELEION. In 1 Cor 10 the form is the
substantive, TO TELEION, "the perfect thing" or the
"perfected/completed/fulfilled thing"
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:23:23 -0600
Subject: Re: Periphrastic Aorist
I would just like to add (or subtract?) from this discussion of
periphrastic forms that it's not so much a matter of regular forms as of
substitutes for regular forms, and that the use of participles with forms
of EINAI goes back at least to the use of the ptc with EISIN in the 3 pl.
pf. MP: where, for instance, in place of the older Homeric TETAGATAI (where
the vocalic N has changed to A), classical Greek tends to write TETAGMENOI
EISIN. Another not uncommon classical periphrastic form is EXW with aorist
ptc. as a sort of periphrastic perfect: e.g. EXW FUGHSAS AUTON for "I have
chased him off" = "now that I got him chased off, I keep him that way."
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: Bill Mounce <billm@teknia.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:57:09 -0700
Subject: More on FlashWorks
Some people have had trouble reading the text files of the different
languages into the Windows version of FlashWorks. I just uploaded a new
copy of FlashWorks onto my web page (http://www.teknia.com/teknia) that has
each language in its own database. Just rename the one you want to use to
"flashwrk.mdb". It you want the text files, they are also available from
the web site.
When I get a second, some day, I will make FlashWorks (Windows) be able to
open different databases of different names.
I will be at the Zondervan booth at ETS/SBL some of the time. I would love
to meet some of you. Come on by.
Bill Mounce
- -------------------------------
Teknia Software, Inc.
1306 W. Bellwood Drive
Spokane, WA 99218-2911
Internet: billm@teknia.com (preferred)
AOL: Mounce
CIS: 71540,2140 (please, only if necessary)
"It may be Greek to you, but it is life to me."
------------------------------
From: "Carlton L. Winbery" <winberyc@linknet.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 18:05:55 +0400
Subject: Re: Periphrastic Aorist
Carl Conrad wrote:
>Another not uncommon classical periphrastic form is EXW with aorist
>ptc. as a sort of periphrastic perfect: e.g. EXW FUGHSAS AUTON for "I have
>chased him off" = "now that I got him chased off, I keep him that way."
>
Its interesting to see that use of EXW in the classical and to observe that
modern Greek has come to use EXW the way we in English uses "have/has".
Carlton Winbery
Prof. Religion
LA College,
Pineville, La
winberyc@linknet.net
fax 318 442 4996
------------------------------
From: "Edgar M. Krentz" <emkrentz@mcs.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 18:26:37 -0500
Subject: Re: "Perfect"?
>Greetings,
>My question:
>
>What is the greek word for "perfect" in the verse below and what does it mean?
>
>I Corinthians 13:10
>"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall
>be done away."
>
The Greek term there is TO TELEION. Literally it means something like "that
which has arrived at its TELOS (goal)." The term thus describes that which
is or does to the best degree what it or he/she was meant to be or do. A
sword that is TELEIOS kills well, a person who is TELEIOS is a moral human,
who lives as he or she should. In Eph 4:13 the goal of ministry is that the
church should arrive EIS ANDRA TELEION, i.e. be that which corresponds to
what Christ has done. The church thus is no longer immature, blown about by
everyk new gust of teaching, but lives out the truth (AHQEUONTES, an
unusual verb to say the least!).
In context in 1 Cor TO TELEION is that which is the opposite of infantile,
of wrong thinking, of blurred vision: it is seeing face to face, of knowing
as we are known, etc. (cf. 1 Cor 13:11-12.
This is at least a start on an answer. I'm sure yu will hear more.
Ed Krentz
Edgar Krentz, New Testament
Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
Tel.: 312-256-0752; (H) 312-947-8105
------------------------------
From: BibAnsMan@aol.com
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 23:47:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Periphrastic Aorist
In a message dated 95-10-30 18:06:45 EST, Carlton L. Winbery writes:
>Its interesting to see that use of EXW in the classical and to observe that
>modern Greek has come to use EXW the way we in English uses "have/has".
Just to add my 2 cents worth, Biblical Greek also uses EXW in periphrastic
constructions. Luke 14:18 includes an example of EXW in a periphrastic
construction.
Jim McGuire
Professor of Greek at
Logos Bible Institute
13248 Roscoe Blvd.
Sun Valley, CA 91352
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #934
*****************************
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
To unsubscribe from this list write
majordomo@virginia.edu
with "unsubscribe b-greek-digest" as your message content. For other
automated services write to the above address with the message content
"help".
For further information, you can write the owner of the list at
owner-b-greek@virginia.edu
You can send mail to the entire list via the address:
b-greek@virginia.edu