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b-greek-digest V1 #7
b-greek-digest Friday, 17 November 1995 Volume 01 : Number 007
In this issue:
[none]
Re: subscribe
question
Status of B-Greek
Re: question
Re: question
Re: Eternity/eternal life
Test
Future Perfect Paraphrastic
Re: Future Perfect Paraphrastic
Re: Test
Re: Eternity/eternal life
Thanks
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: shilton@cornerstone.edu
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 07:41:39 EST
Subject: [none]
subscribe b-greek shilton@cornerstone.edu
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 07:47:30 -0600
Subject: Re: subscribe
At 7:31 AM 11/15/95, Robert Groover wrote:
>subscribe b-greek groover@netcom.com
>
>I hope this won't hit the list (and I apologize if it does), but
>I don't have any other address for this list, and I would like
>to subscribe.
>
>I'm a rusty Classics major trying to keep my Greek current for Bible and
>patristics - I've found (as I guess we all have) that the Greek is
>indispensible to accurate reading. I've got basic references here
>(Kittel and L&S), but nobody to talk to about them (a common problem
>outside of academia), so I'm quite excited about this list.
>Thanks,
>
>Robert Groover groover@netcom.com (PGP key on request)
>Member ECS, AVS, ACM, OSA, Sen.Mem.IEEE, Reg'd Patent Atty
> "All men by nature desire knowledge."
This won't work, as it goes to the whole discussion list. Your subscription
must be sent to:
majordomo@virginia.edu
By the way, are you familiar with John H. Randall Jr.'s comment on that
line from Aristotle's Metaphysics? "It's obvious that Aristotle never had
any experience of American undergraduate college students."
It will be good to have you aboard.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: Paul Watkins <102737.1761@compuserve.com>
Date: 16 Nov 95 10:20:20 EST
Subject: question
Is eternity eternity or something else? Please send responses directly
to me as I am not currently subscribed. Thank you.
Paul Watkins
Grace College and Seminary
------------------------------
From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 10:23:05 CST
Subject: Status of B-Greek
For the record:
Apparently 8 days ago (Wed. Nov. 8th) the subscription list for B-Greek was
lost, although B-Greek-Digest continued to function correctly. Last Friday
morning when Carl Conrad checked the subscription list (with a WHO B-GREEK
command to majordomo), he discovered that there were only two names on the
B-Greek subscription list. On that same day (or perhaps it was already
Saturday in Australia where it is located), the archive for B-Greek at
entmp.org was accidently lost (talk about coincidences!).
Since that time, the subscription list for B-Greek has now grown to over 60
names (plus over 140 names on B-Greek-Digest). Over half of the people who
seem to be the most frequent posters have now resubscribed. James Tauber has
gotten the archive back in working order (although postings before this week
have been lost), and it can be checked on World Wide Web at:
http://www.entmp.org/archive/b-greek
This is somewhat less than the 250 subscribers that B-Greek had this last
summer, but I think there are now enough subscribers to once again start
messages in earnest.
********************************************************************************
Bruce Terry E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station Phone: 915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699 Fax: 915/674-3769
********************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 09:57:51 -0600
Subject: Re: question
At 9:20 AM 11/16/95, Paul Watkins wrote:
>Is eternity eternity or something else? Please send responses directly
>to me as I am not currently subscribed. Thank you.
The question itself is theological, of course, and maybe that can't be
avoided in a discussion that really BELONGS properly to b-greek, namely
what the phrase EIS TON AIWNA, that recurs over and over again (I've always
assumed that it meant "into the age-to-come"--however one understands that,
as heavenly or earthly) and what ZWH AIWNIOS really means in John's gospel
(I've always assumed that this means an inseverable bond between the
believer, whether in or out of the space-time continuum, with God). I
really would like to avoid getting into theological controversy here, and I
am far from confident that the contextual usage of these terms in the NT
provides sufficient evidence to answer these questions definitively, but I
am curious.
And the above question is pretty ambiguous too, isn't it? I'm not sure what
Paul actually means by the second "eternity" (or by the first one, for that
matter). I would suppose that the two chief competing ideas would be
"endless duration in time" and "timelessness."
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: David Moore <dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 11:22:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: question
On 16 Nov 1995, Paul Watkins wrote:
> Is eternity eternity or something else? Please send responses directly
> to me as I am not currently subscribed. Thank you.
>
Paul,
It would probably be better to phrase your question in terms of
the Greek word most often used to express "eternal." The adjective
AIWNIOS is usually used in biblical expressions like "eternal life."
A good question for discussion would be, is AIWNIOS, as it is used
in the New Testament, always in reference to quantity of time, or does it
sometimes express only quality. For instance, in 1 Jhn. 5:11 and 12 where
the apostle speaks of ZWHN AIWNION that God has given us in His Son, and
whoever has the Son has this life. Is AIWNION in reference to the
eternity of the life that God gives, or may we understand ZWHN AIWNION as
a certain quality of life without necessary reference to its being
everlasting?
Something to think about.
Regards,
David L. Moore Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida of the Assemblies of God
dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Department of Education
------------------------------
From: Mark O'Brien <Mark_O'Brien@dts.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 13:24:19 CST
Subject: Re: Eternity/eternal life
Original message sent on Thu, Nov 16 5:22 AM by
dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us (David Moore) :
> A good question for discussion would be, is AIWNIOS, as it is used
> in the New Testament, always in reference to quantity of time, or
> does it sometimes express only quality. For instance, in 1 Jhn. 5:11
> and 12 where the apostle speaks of ZWHN AIWNION that God has
> given us in His Son, and whoever has the Son has this life. Is
> AIWNION in reference to the eternity of the life that God gives, or
> may we understand ZWHN AIWNION as a certain quality of life
> without necessary reference to its being everlasting?
And what about Jn 17:3, where Christ defines AIWNIOS ZWH as being
knowledge of the Father and the Son? I guess that raises the
question as to what is meant by GINWSKWSIN in this context. One
would think it is probably more than cognitive recognition, and
perhaps to be understood in terms of relationship. However one
interprets GINWSKWSIN here, this verse at least does seem to remove
AIWNIOS from being in the temporal realm entirely.
> Something to think about.
Indeed... I'm trying!
Mark O'Brien
Grad. student, Dallas Theological Seminary
------------------------------
From: Bill Renner <WILLARD@univscvm.csd.scarolina.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 16:20:05 EST
Subject: Test
I have not received anything on this list for a week. I am sending this
to see if I get it back. The university computer here has had a mail problem
the last weekend.
Bill Renner
1427 Cardinal Dr.
West Columbia, SC 29169
email: BILLYRAY@sc.edu
------------------------------
From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 16:59:57 CST
Subject: Future Perfect Paraphrastic
Well, let's try this again. It got lost in last week's problems. My thanks
to Carl Conrad for retrieving it from the B-Greek-Digest since I usually don't
send myself a copy of what I post (you wouldn't think I've been working with
computers for 27 years now :).
On Mon, 30 Oct 1995, Carlton L. Winbery wrote:
>present periphrastic involves the present of EIMI + the present ptc.
>imperfect peri. " imperfect of EIMI + the present ptc.
>future peri. " future of EIMI + the present ptc.
>aorist peri. " imperfect of EIMI + aorist ptc.
>perfect peri. " present of EIMI + perfect ptc.
>pluperfect peri. " imperfect of EIMI + perfect ptc.
This good concise list omits the future perfect periphastic:
future perfect peri. involves the future of EIMI + the perfect ptc.
The most notable example of this is in Matt. 16:19 where we find ESTAI
DEDEMENON and ESTAI LELUMENON. The NASV translates these as future perfects
in English "shall have been bound" and "shall have been loosed." Somewhere
(for the life of me I cannot remember where) F.F. Bruce has written that such
a translation misses the meaning of the Greek. Unfortunately, he does not go
on to explain what that meaning is.
This being the case, I would like to float another idea on B-Greek and see if
it gets sunk.
The basic significance of the perfect aspect (linguists should read "stative
aspect") seems to be action which happens at a single point in time but which
has continued results. This being the case the future perfect in Greek would
signify action in the future that produces a continued state. By way of
contrast, in English the future perfect is used for action which is past
relative to a future point in time. If I have correctly described the
significance of the Greek future perfect, a suitable English translation of
the words above in Matt. 16:19 would be "shall stay bound" and "shall stay
loosed."
Well, let's see whether this one floats or sinks.
********************************************************************************
Bruce Terry E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station Phone: 915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699 Fax: 915/674-3769
********************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: obi nate kanobi <nate@paul.spu.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 15:26:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Future Perfect Paraphrastic
unsubscribe nate@paul.spu.edu
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 18:32:32 -0600
Subject: Re: Test
At 3:20 PM 11/16/95, Bill Renner wrote:
>I have not received anything on this list for a week. I am sending this
>to see if I get it back. The university computer here has had a mail problem
>the last weekend.
Bill, you may need to resubscribe. There was evidently a crash at
majordomo@virginia.edu sometime last Wednesday evening--or something that
wiped out the regular (but not the digest) subscriber list to b-greek. I
discovered this Friday morning by sending a who b-greek inquiry to
majordomo@virginia.edu and gettting back a list of ONLY TWO SUBSCRIBERS.
Since then 50-60 of what were about 250 subscribers have resubscribed.
There hasn't been a whole lot of activity in the last week since recovery,
but there's been some. Better get yourself re-subscribed.
Cheers, cwc
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: "Carlton L. Winbery" <winberyc@linknet.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 19:23:13 +0400
Subject: Re: Eternity/eternal life
Mark O'brien wrote:
>And what about Jn 17:3, where Christ defines AIWNIOS ZWH as being
>knowledge of the Father and the Son? I guess that raises the
>question as to what is meant by GINWSKWSIN in this context. One
>would think it is probably more than cognitive recognition, and
>perhaps to be understood in terms of relationship. However one
>interprets GINWSKWSIN here, this verse at least does seem to remove
>AIWNIOS from being in the temporal realm entirely.<
Rudolf Bultmann wrote in the Hermeneia volume on I John something to the
effect that the Johannine concept of "knowing God" referred to a
relationship with God in which the knower is determined in his ethic by God
himself. He gave it a definite ethical dimension.
Carlton Winbery
Prof. Religion
LA College,
Pineville, La
winberyc@linknet.net
fax 318 442 4996
------------------------------
From: Bill Renner <WILLARD@univscvm.csd.scarolina.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 21:21:23 EST
Subject: Thanks
I want to thank every one who answered by call for help particularly
Edward and Carl. They both advised me that the list itself had crashed
and now I am back on line. The university here crashed on in coming mail
and they had at one time 7000 pieces of undelivered mail, which they
cleared out by Wednesday.
Bill Renner
1427 Cardinal Dr.
West Columbia, SC 29169
email: BILLYRAY@sc.edu
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #7
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