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b-greek-digest V1 #23
b-greek-digest Friday, 1 December 1995 Volume 01 : Number 023
In this issue:
Re: Textual Problems in Mark 7:24, 28
Re: Textual Problems in Mark 7:24, 28
Re: Romans !6:1-2.
errors
Re: Textual Problems in Mark 7:24, 28
Re: errors
subscription
Re: errors
Re: Textual Problems in Mark 7:24, 28
1 Thes 4:16,17
Re: Junia/Junias nochmals und weiter ... und weiter
Re: errors
Re: Bible study software? (fwd)
Re: Junias Redivivus!
B-Greek Transliteration Schemes
Re: Junias Redivivus!
"Viability" of Pseudo-Junias
"Two paths to salvation"
Re: Bible study software? (fwd)
Tense in non-indicative moods
Re: Re: 1 Tim. 2:15--"get safely through"
Re: Tense in non-indicative moods
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: LISATIA@aol.com
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 01:33:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Textual Problems in Mark 7:24, 28
dear Ken,
Two factors make a convincing case for the readings of NA27 in Mk 7.24,
28: the shorter text and harmonization in favor of Matthew. It matters not
whether you follow Greisbach.
best wishes, richard arthur, Merrimack NH, lisatia@aol.com
------------------------------
From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 22:40:28 +0800
Subject: Re: Textual Problems in Mark 7:24, 28
Richard, while I grant the issues of the shorter text and the possibility
of harmonization, on the otherr hand, there is the fat that just about every
Alexandrian witness of any consequence has this reading is what bothers me
about omitting Sidonos in 7:24. When should we discount the whole Alexandrian
text family in favor of other factors? That's not a challenge. It's a question.
Ken Litwak
GTU
Bezerkley, CA
"Cogito eggo sum" I think, therefore I am a waffle -- NY Times
------------------------------
From: LISATIA@aol.com
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 03:25:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Romans !6:1-2.
dear Alison,
Office vs. function is a very tricky distinction between words. But I
wouldn't agree with the statement that only in Phil. 1.1 and I Tim. 3.8 does
Paul write about the title (="office"?) "deacon".
The Corinthian correspondence seems to involve some discussion of the titles
"apostle" (I Cor. 9.1; II Cor 11.12-13) and "deacon" (I Cor. 3.5; II Cor.
3.6-7; 6.3-4; 11.12-15, 23). In I Cor. 3.5, TI OUN ESTIN APOLLWS; "He is a
deacon through whom ye bellieved". The context could indicate a title of
respect. In II Cor 3.6-7, Paul talks about his crew, not the recipients,
"God authorized us to be deacons of a new covenant, not of the letter but of
the spirit." The context fits an official commission. Chapter 11 attacks
"false apostles" (v. 13) and false "deacons of righteousness" (v. 15). The
context seems to be that these are people falsely using the titles "apostle"
and "deacon". V. 23 asks the question:DIAKONOI XRISTOU EISIN; The preceding
verse indicates that this is honorary language comparable to "Hebrews",
"Israelites", and "seed of Abraham".
By the way, II Cor. 8.23, written in the context of a letter of
recommendation for Titus and "the brother", asks EITE ADELFOI hHMWN,
APOSTOLOI EKKLHSIWN, DOKSA XRISTOU, "about our brothers - they are apostles
of the churches, the glory of Christ". Here Paul shows both the importance
and arbitrariness of titles.
richard arthur, the ice is on the pond, Merrimack NH, lisatia@aol.com
------------------------------
From: LISATIA@aol.com
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 04:23:41 -0500
Subject: errors
Is the Greek New Testament inerrant, grammatically speaking? What evidence
is there, if any, of grammatical error?
richard arthur, Merrimack NH lisatia@aol.com
------------------------------
From: LISATIA@aol.com
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 04:39:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Textual Problems in Mark 7:24, 28
dear Ken,
What you should do is run through a whole series of Markan-Matthean
parallels that exhibit this kind of addition/subraction problem. My guess is
that you will find the shorter reading usually can explain the longer. By
the way, I well remember George Ladd from many years ago - his was a noble
character of piety and learning
best wishes, richard arthur, Merrimack NH, Lisatia@aol.com
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 05:39:46 -0600
Subject: Re: errors
At 3:23 AM 12/1/95, LISATIA@aol.com wrote:
> Is the Greek New Testament inerrant, grammatically speaking? What evidence
>is there, if any, of grammatical error?
> richard arthur, Merrimack NH lisatia@aol.com
I don't really mean to be snide here, but I'll repeat what I've said before
about Mark's grammar (although Edward Hobbs, whose opinion I do respect,
thinks that there's nothing really unusual about Mark's Greek): I don't
think Mark would pass a Greek composition course in good Hellenistic Greek.
Perhaps this is not a matter of grammar so much as style (grammar being one
way of distinguishing which people live on which side of the railroad
tracks). And the DE that I always add to that MEN: it's all the more
reMARKable how sophisticated the LITERARY quality of Mark's gospel is!
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: JDANIELS@asc.scottlan.edu
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 07:49:49 EST
Subject: subscription
cancel subscription please.
------------------------------
From: Rod Decker <rdecker@inf.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 07:45:38 -0600
Subject: Re: errors
> Is the Greek New Testament inerrant, grammatically speaking? What evidence
>is there, if any, of grammatical error?
> richard arthur, Merrimack NH lisatia@aol.com
How do you define "grammatical error"? I think your question reflects a
very prescriptive approach to language and doesn't take into account the
fact that there were not (to my knowledge) grammatical "rules" in koine as
we have in English today by which to make such a judgment. To be inerrant,
there must be a standard against which to judge. There was common usage in
koine, no doubt, but the variations within that category--to say nothing of
the fuzzy edges--make "inerrant" an inappropriate category.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rodney J. Decker Calvary Theological Seminary
Asst. Prof./NT 15800 Calvary Rd.
rdecker@inf.net Kansas City, Missouri 64147
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
From: Carlton Winbery <winberyc@popalex1.linknet.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:52:35 -0600
Subject: Re: Textual Problems in Mark 7:24, 28
>Richard, while I grant the issues of the shorter text and the possibility
>of harmonization, on the otherr hand, there is the fat that just about every
>Alexandrian witness of any consequence has this reading is what bothers me
>about omitting Sidonos in 7:24. When should we discount the whole Alexandrian
>text family in favor of other factors? That's not a challenge. It's a
>question.
Ken,
I would say yes. I have a healthy respect for the Alexandrian also but not
in the face of strong probabilities.
Carlton Winbery
Prof. Religion
LA College,
Pineville,La
winberyc@popalex1.linknet.net
fax (318) 442-4996
------------------------------
From: Roger Andersson ST/BE <etxroan@flipper.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 14:57:38 +0100
Subject: 1 Thes 4:16,17
Hi everyone!
In the different religions that use the Bible as its base
(or at least say they do) there are a variety of ideas on
what happen to people when they die. Some go to hell, some
go to purgatory, some go to heaven, some just go to the
grave. There are also some ideas as regards how many go to
heaven, for instance. If someone could put aside the creed
thing, and just look into the contextual and grammatical
proof, and help me with a question, I'd be grateful.
In reading 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17 I understand that the
ones who are "dead in Christ" will rise, or be resurrected,
first. (Rise to what?) The next part, in v 17, some explain
means that the 'alive and remaining' ones will be caught up
to BE together with the first ones. I, on my part, understand
it to mean that the 'catching up' will be together with the
first ones, ie. at the same time. If I remember correctly,
the Greek word for "together" used here, can also mean "at
the same time". What do you say about this theory?
And, if it's correct, where were the first ones between their
'rising' and their 'catching up'? (or: will be (?))
Is there any verse in the Bible that tells us WHEN the ones
who'll go to heaven (be it 0, 144000, or everyone, except for
our Lord, Jesus Christ, of course) actually will do that?
Regards, Mikael!
------------------------------
From: Michael Holmes <holmic@homer.acs.bethel.edu>
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 10:01:53 CST
Subject: Re: Junia/Junias nochmals und weiter ... und weiter
RE the current thread about Junia/Junias:
In his first message a few days ago, Carl Conrad pointed out that as a
Greek form of a Latin name, the masculine ought to be JuniOs. Recently an
article appeared making precisely this point, and demonstrating that Junias
as a shortened form of a man's name is a phantom form. However, at the
moment the reference is not available to me (sorry for the lack of
specificity). Has someone else seen this article, or have the reference?
Mike Holmes
Bethel College
------------------------------
From: JDANIELS@asc.scottlan.edu
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:51:32 EST
Subject: Re: errors
This is a good question that Richard Arthur raises.
While no grammatical rules may have been strictly adhered to, hence
the difficulty in measuring a NT document's grammatical prowess, it
is possible to compare the grammatical structures of the different NT
writings with other NT writings. The results of such comparisons
have revealed for instance, that the greek of Mark's gospel is
more rough, or, less fluid than, say, the greek of Luke-Acts. There
are also instances where modern scholars may think that a NT writer
might have gotten a point across more clearly if he would have used
another tense or mood for a particular verb. Instances like that
however, raise interesting questions that pertain to the field of textual
criticism as scholars struggle to make sense out of the textual
variants that are the result of the copying (by hand) and recopying of
the biblical record over the centuries. There are for example,
instances where are copyist in the third century, may have changed
the mood and tense of a verb in a verse of Paul's letter to Rome
because he thought it made better sense in light of his reading of
the letter. Textual critics try to determine which reading is the
most likely to be closer to what the apostle actually wrote--since
there are no original writings of the NT extant. This in itself
raises many questions for some about the "inerrancy" of the Bible.
I hope the above is helpful to you Richard, and not just a bunch of
stuff you already know.
Jack Daniels
------------------------------
From: Stephen Carlson <scc@reston.icl.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 10:11:11 EST
Subject: Re: Bible study software? (fwd)
D. Peterson wrote:
> In my version, the strongs numbers can be _displayed_ only in the KJV,
> however, you can do a search in any version by using the strongs number
> instead of the word in the search box.
My version is then out of date; it is the 6.0 DOS version and about two
years old.
> The definition of _serious_ greek work is up for grabs. I agree that OLB is
> not the most powerful software if you want to do complex lexigraphic work
> for publication. But the original question that led to this thread was
> about bible software for someone beginning to use computers who wants to
> deal with the original texts (i.e. the pastor/teacher in the parish). If
> you can afford the resources and time that Grammcord or Logos stuff needs,
> then great!!! In my circumstance, though, I am using a Mac and have done
> rather well with OLB on CD rom for $125. I really don't know anything more
> cost-efficient.
>
> My bottom line is that even this intermediate level program is light years
> ahead of working with paper texts (always excepting having a critical
> edition of the text at hand).
>
> I'm just emailing you on this, feel free to post to the list if you think
> appropriate,
> Pax,
> DCP
You've made some good comments which can be of use for list members, so
I'm cc'ing this to the list.
Stephen
- --
Stephen Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations, : ICL, Inc.
scc@reston.icl.com : and songs chant the words. : 11490 Commerce Park Dr.
(703) 648-3330 : Shujing 2:35 : Reston, VA 22091 USA
------------------------------
From: BibAnsMan@aol.com
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:50:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Junias Redivivus!
Just a note regarding this discussion of Junias in Romans 16:7. It was
mentioned previously that the accent is relatively recent (20th century). It
is my contention that the accent really doesn't have much impact one way OR
the other so it should be ignored (since it isn't from the early manuscripts
anyway).
Also, it was noted that the feminine Junias is very common and the masculine
form is not found. Let it also be known that a female apostle is also not
found in Scripture. Danker as noted takes the contextual interpretation of
masculine. Some have opposed this, but I don't see any argument against the
context. The form itself can clearly support a masculine.
Jim McGuire
Professor of Greek at
Logos Bible Institute
13248 Roscoe Blvd.
Sun Valley, CA 91352
------------------------------
From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Fri, 01 Dec 1995 11:07:01 CST
Subject: B-Greek Transliteration Schemes
Here it is again. This is at the Australia archive, but the archive program
compresses white space, making it almost unreadable. The Gramcord archive
should also have it, but I haven't checked to see what it does with white
space. I agree with Carl's suggestion. It would also be nice to have
something like this come with the welcome message. It would also be nice to
have the www addresses for the b-greek and b-greek-digest archives given in
the welcome message. But that would be up to the list-owner, David John
Marotta. Write him at djm5g@virginia.edu if you feel strongly about this.
There is no standard transliteration scheme on B-Greek. However, most people
will use one of the following six schemes. Note that these schemes use either
upper case or lower case, not both, since a change in case may signify a
different letter.
LETTERS TLG/CCAT Simplified Modified Standard
ACCENTS Beta Code CAPS Lower CAPS Lower Digraph
alpha A A a A a a
beta B B b B b b
gamma G G g G g g
delta D D d D d d
epsilon E E e E e e
zeta Z Z z Z z z
eta H H E H E E
theta Q Q q Q q th
iota I I i I i i
kappa K K k K k k
lambda L L l L l l
mu M M m M m m
nu N N n N n n
xi C C c X x x
omicron O O o O o o
pi P P p P p p
rho R R r R r r
sigma S S s S s s
tau T T t T t t
upsilon U U u U u u
phi F F f F f ph
chi X X x C c ch
psi Y Y y V v ps
omega W W O W O O
digamma V f w
koppa q q
iota subscript | i i
smooth breathing )
rough breathing ( h ( h h h
acute accent / / / /
circumflex accent = @ = ~
grave accent \ \ \ \
diaeresis +
The following are the same for all schemes.
upper case *
(following character is upper case)
apostrophe '
hyphen -
comma ,
period .
raised dot (colon) :
question mark :
dash _
Note that both medial and final sigma are transliterated the same.
Accents are usually omitted for all schemes except TLG unless they are
necessary for the sense of the post.
Breathing marks and the * to indicate upper-case are written at the beginning
of the word.
Accents and diacritical marks are written directly after the coding for the
character above and below which they are located in the source document. They
follow the second character of a diphthong.
Note on TLG/CCAT Beta code keyboard layout: This was originally created to
enable appropriate software programs to translate TLG coded texts into
different Greek fonts used by different platforms.
********************************************************************************
Bruce Terry E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station Phone: 915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699 Fax: 915/674-3769
********************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:58:47 -0600
Subject: Re: Junias Redivivus!
At 9:50 AM 12/1/95, BibAnsMan@aol.com wrote:
>Just a note regarding this discussion of Junias in Romans 16:7. It was
>mentioned previously that the accent is relatively recent (20th century). It
>is my contention that the accent really doesn't have much impact one way OR
>the other so it should be ignored (since it isn't from the early manuscripts
>anyway).
>
>Also, it was noted that the feminine Junias is very common and the masculine
>form is not found. Let it also be known that a female apostle is also not
>found in Scripture. Danker as noted takes the contextual interpretation of
>masculine. Some have opposed this, but I don't see any argument against the
>context. The form itself can clearly support a masculine.
There's a bit of confusion here. The feminine form is NOT Junias but Junia;
Junias, if it were a known name, would be the 1st declension masculine
form.
As for the other argument, that "a female apostle is not found in
Scripture," there's a pretty good chance that there's one found right here
in Romans 16:7.
A good deal here depends on what precise sense we attach to APOSTOLOS also:
does it refer to one holding some kind of authority? one of the 12? It
certainly would not appear to be the case here. When Paul uses the term
APOSTOLOS it appears to mean, fundamentally, "missionary."
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: Edward Hobbs <EHOBBS@wellesley.edu>
Date: Fri, 01 Dec 1995 12:26:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: "Viability" of Pseudo-Junias
I was glad that Carl Conrad reprinted the message from Tim Mize to him and
to me, for I never received the message. Carl has answered exceedingly well,
and I won't repeat his points. But I WILL make the point that "Junias"
as a Greek name is non-existent (a "phantom form," I think Stephen Carlson
called it!), and to treat Iounian as a possible accusative of that
paseudo-name is not a serious position if one is honest with the facts.
The name DOES NOT EXIST IN ANY GREEK LITERATURE! To speak of
"the" literatue sounds as though the NT, or Christian, literature is meant.
But consider: All of Latin literature fits on one CD-ROM. All of Hebrew
and Aramaic literature fits on one CD-ROM. Greek literature already fills
FIVE CD-ROMs, and still counting. This is a vast literature. And yet,
for the first time,in the 20th century no less, after 19 centuries of no
one dreaming that such a name existed, someone decides that IF there WERE
such a name, it could be accented as no MS. in existence accents it, and
we would miraculously have eliminated the possibility of a female apostle!
The formation is wrong, as Carl Conrad pointed out. And strong
as my admiration for A. T. Robertson is (some will recall a strong eulogy
of him which I wrote and posted a few months ago), I strongly suspect that
Carl Conrad's acquaintance with non-Biblical Greek is far beyond anything
Robertson possessed. Carl's knowledge of Greek literature is simply
phenomenal, in my view -- and I was trained in Classics, not NT Greek,
and have been in close contact for years with such stellar classicists
at Harvard as Albert Henrichs and the late Zeph Stewart--so I'm not
so easily impressed.
The comments on the absence of references to other female apostles
are beside the point. Our only "history" of the first generation is by
Luke, who built the theory that the term apostle should apply to none but
the Twelve (hence Judas's betrayal required replacement of #12), which
is why he withholds the title from everyone but the Twelve, even Paul and
Barnabas, with the sole exception of Acts 14:14 (usually explained as a
slip in Luke's editing his source). Not even Silas is an apostle. Since
Paul battles for his right to the term, and refers to other apostles, not
always clearly meaning "the Twelve," we know that the term was applied to more
missionaries than just the Twelve. When we leave Acts, what do we find (i.e.,
in second century literature)? The term apostle is restricted to the first
generation, so of course there are no more of them, male or female.
Finally, may I publicly thank Stephen Carlson for doing what I should
have done--checked the apparatus in GNT4. AlthoughI own three copies of
it, I do not use it unless I have to, since I hate the typeface (and can
barely read it); and so I missed the preposterous apparatus to Junia(s)!
If anyone but Bruce Metzger had done it, we would have called it
fraudulent scholarship. Since I know and respect Bruce, I can only note
that even the best among us can "doctor" the evidence when it is in a
"good" cause.
Edward Hobbs
------------------------------
From: Edward Hobbs <EHOBBS@wellesley.edu>
Date: Fri, 01 Dec 1995 12:44:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: "Two paths to salvation"
To add another text to Tim Staker's citation of 2 Clement: The final
saying in Gospel of Thomas says the same thing, that Jesus will give
Mary the masculine essence so that she can be saved. And yet some want
us to believe that the Gnostics were free of male chauvinism!
Edward Hobbs
------------------------------
From: Nichael Lynn Cramer <nichael@sover.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:14:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Bible study software? (fwd)
At 10:18 AM 30/11/95, Stephen Carlson wrote:
> [...]
>In the OLB version I have, Strong's # are only available in the English
>(KJV) module, not the Greek module, and are of course keyed to the
>Textus Receptus instead of the NA26/UBS3. Thus, they are not useful for
>serious Greek work.
>
>> Yes, OLB does not have diacriticals, punctuation, etc. However, the
>> manuscripts of the NT don't have those either. At least OLB has spaces
>> between the words. :)
>Lack of diacriticals, punctuation, and case also simplify the searching,
>which I suppose is the real reason.
Not really; there's no reason such marks couldn't be included in the text
and made transparent to the search-engine. (Or more generally, the
search-sensitivity to such characters should be a user-settable parameter.)
In any case, 'EN and `EN (to pick a single example) are quite different
words and it would be nice to able to differentiate between the two.
>> It is true, though that you can't replace your trusty Nestle-Aland with one
>> of these programs. That wasn't the question, however.
>This point deserves reiteration.
Quite right. The original point was that many of the packages --especially
the shareware/freeware packages-- while useful for Bible Study are probably
less useful for, say, textual work. Given the nature of this list this
seemed a reasonable point to make.
Nichael "... and they opened their thesaurus
nichael@sover.net and brought forth gold,
http://www.sover.net/~nichael and frankincense and myrrh."
------------------------------
From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:08:02 +0800
Subject: Tense in non-indicative moods
Porter in his Idioms book makes the case that tense is irrelevant
to the meaning of the non-indicative moods. Present negated imperatives
do not mean "Stop doing x" and aorist negated imperatives don't mean
"don't do x". They have no clear distinction that I can tell from
what I've read so far. This both trashes everything I learned about
the non-indicative moods and much that I have read in commentaries,
leaving me wondering if I understand Greek at all if he's right and
wondering what to make of tenses and moods since he seems to be
reducing them all into one pot of "verbs" with no meaningful
distinctions that I can see in understanding them, execept
whether something is complete or not. Is this understanding of the
non-indicative moods generally accepted by modern grammarians and if so,
what of all the works that revolve around such distinctions? Does that
mean that there aren't any rules left for distingushing tenses or moods
in verbs, such that futures and pluperfects are the same? I'm not
trying to use hyperbole. Poerter argued against any tense having any
time relation, so that leaves one wondering what good six tenses
are.
Ken Litwak
GTU
Bezerkley, CA
------------------------------
From: Stephen Carlson <scc@reston.icl.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 14:16:21 EST
Subject: Re: Re: 1 Tim. 2:15--"get safely through"
Timster132@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 95-11-26 Will Wagers writes:
> >In this vein, can anyone point to any evidence for there being two paths to
> >salvation - one for males and one for females in the NT?
>
> Not NT, but in 2 Clement there is that strange notion of the female having
> to become male in order to have salvation. It's not a literal passage, but
> some kind of allegory. I think it is referring to females needing to become
> celibate in order to be saved-- the opposite of Paul's advice.
2 Clement 12:
2 For when the Lord himself was asked by someone when his
kingdom will come, he said: "When the two shall be one,
and the outside as the inside, and the male with the female,
neither male nor female."
In v5, it is explained as Christians will not think of each other in
terms of sex; perhaps, celibacy is meant by that. This is very similar
to GThom 22:4-5, and to a quotation from the Gospel of the Egyptians in
Clement of Alex., Strom. iii,13. Also related is GThom 114:3 "For every
female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven" and
GMary 5:8 "for he has joined us together and made us true human beings."
These sayings are reminiscent of both Gal 3:28 ("There is neither . . .
male nor female . . . in Christ Jesus") and Gen 2:24 ("the two shall
become one flesh"; see also Mt19:5-6 Mk10:7-9 1Co6:16 Ep5:31). Of
course, neither of these passages imply a separate salvation path for
men and women.
Stephen Carlson
- --
Stephen Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations, : ICL, Inc.
scc@reston.icl.com : and songs chant the words. : 11490 Commerce Park Dr.
(703) 648-3330 : Shujing 2:35 : Reston, VA 22091 USA
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:34:32 -0600
Subject: Re: Tense in non-indicative moods
At 8:08 PM 11/30/95, Kenneth Litwak wrote:
> Porter in his Idioms book makes the case that tense is irrelevant
>to the meaning of the non-indicative moods. Present negated imperatives
>do not mean "Stop doing x" and aorist negated imperatives don't mean
>"don't do x". They have no clear distinction that I can tell from
>what I've read so far. This both trashes everything I learned about
>the non-indicative moods and much that I have read in commentaries,
>leaving me wondering if I understand Greek at all if he's right and
>wondering what to make of tenses and moods since he seems to be
>reducing them all into one pot of "verbs" with no meaningful
>distinctions that I can see in understanding them, execept
>whether something is complete or not. Is this understanding of the
>non-indicative moods generally accepted by modern grammarians and if so,
>what of all the works that revolve around such distinctions? Does that
>mean that there aren't any rules left for distingushing tenses or moods
>in verbs, such that futures and pluperfects are the same? I'm not
>trying to use hyperbole. Poerter argued against any tense having any
>time relation, so that leaves one wondering what good six tenses
>are.
I guess I'm going to have to READ Porter rather than read what people claim
about his book. But it's going to take a hard sell to get me to believe
that tense doesn't make any difference in the 3rd person imperatives of Mk
8:34:
EI TIS QELEI OPISW MOU AKOLOUQEIN, APARNHSASQW hEAUTON KAI ARATW TON
STAURON AUTOU KAI AKOLOUQEITW MOI.
I have always believed that the aorist imperatives are to be understood as
referring to a single critical and decisive choice, the present imperative
to an action to begin now and to continue. Would Porter argue otherwise?
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #23
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