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b-greek-digest V1 #22
b-greek-digest Friday, 1 December 1995 Volume 01 : Number 022
In this issue:
Re: Bible study software? (fwd)
Re: Standardized Transliteration
Re: Junia/Junias nochmals und weiter ... und weiter
Re: Re: 1 Tim. 2:15--"get safely through"
Re: Bible study software? (fwd)
Re: Junia/Junias nochmals
Re: Standardized Transliteration
Re: Junia/Junias nochmals und weiter ... und weiter
Re: Standardized Transliteration
Word Perfect DOS conversions
Re: Basic Foundation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 19:55:14 -0600
Subject: Re: Bible study software? (fwd)
At 3:27 PM 11/30/95, John Calvin Hall wrote:
>At 10:18 AM 11/30/95 EST, you wrote:
>
>>In the OLB version I have, Strong's # are only available in the English
>>(KJV) module, not the Greek module, and are of course keyed to the
>>Textus Receptus instead of the NA26/UBS3. Thus, they are not useful for
>>serious Greek work.
>
>Your statement is based on the "assumption" that everyone considers the
>Critical Text to be the superior.
>
>John Calvin Hall
>johnhall@gulf.net
>
>...Modern Textual Criticism and Biblical Textual Criticism are not the same.
I guess we do always need to be reminded that both the majority opinion and
the minority opinion are opinions, much as both majority and minority might
wish we would believe one of them is something more than that.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 19:53:47 -0600
Subject: Re: Standardized Transliteration
At 4:02 PM 11/30/95, Stephen Carlson wrote:
>craigos@ix6.ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> I have been reading on this list for a few months and have a list
>> oriented question:
>>
>> Is there a standard format for the transliterations?
>
>There is no standard but this system is popular:
>
>Greek Alphabet: A B G D E Z H Q I K L M N C O P R S T U F X Y W
>rough breathing:h, iota subscript:i, digamma:w; acute:/, grave:\, circumflex:=
>
>I think that the introductory materials for this list should include
>a statement about the transliteration system. What do others think?
(1) The above is, in fact, the scheme I've tried to use consistently,
partly because I think that the upper-case letters for the Greek set Greek
text off clearly from the surrounding English.
(2) Bruce Terry has on several occasions posted a summary of three or four
different schemes that have been used on the list, one of which is the
"Beta code" scheme used on the TLG and PHI CD-ROMs for Greek; there is a
very neat little GIF diagram of "Beta Code" posted in the Perseus web site,
and a detailed outline of "Beta code" is posted on the TLG site at
UCalIrvine. I would suggest that these materials--Bruce's posting, the TLG
summary and the GIF from the Perseus site (if we can get permission to use
it) should be posted at both the web archive sites for the list, the one
James Tauber maintains in Perth, Australia and the one in Vancouver(?).
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 19:55:33 -0600
Subject: Re: Junia/Junias nochmals und weiter ... und weiter
I think this was meant for the list, so I am forwarding it and will
comment, ever so briefly.
- ---------------------------------
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 18:32:37 -0500
>From: Akulas@aol.com
>To: cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu
>Subject: Re: Junia/Junias nochmals
>Status:
>
>Dr. Conrad and Dr. Hobbs,
>
>I wasn't on board when you talked all this out before, so if you don't mind,
>I'd like to comment and hear some discussion.
>
>Dr. Conrad writes:
>
>>Yes, the form IOUNIAS with circumflex on the "A" is a theoretically
>>masculine form, but the problem is that it's a Latin name, and the Greek
>>masculine equivalent of the Latin name would surely be IOUNIOS. I really
>>think the proof must go the other way around: it needs to be shown why the
>>form is NOT feminine, which is what it appears to be.
>
>Both BDF (sec. 125 (2)) and Robertson (p. 172) say that IOUNIAS (if that is
>the name here) would probably be the shortened form of the common name
>IOUNIANOS (L. Junianus). Robertson notes that usually when a name is
>shortened like that, it ends in -AS. For example SILOUANOS (1Th. 1:1)
>shortens to SILAS (Acts 15:22,etc).
>
>So then, if a shortened form of a Latin name is used, would the greek form
>have the -OS ending then? Wouldn't it be -AS as usual?
>
>Cranfield argues, similarly to Dr. Hobbs, that "Junias" can't be right
>because we don't find that name anywhere else in the literature. Would the
>fact that it is a shortened form not explain that? Junianus, I understand,
>was a quite common name, like Junia was.
>
>I agree that BAGD is out of line to say that the context demands taking the
>word as masculine--that is, if they mean that the NT doctrine of the
>apostolate necessarily precludes its having female members. On the other
>hand, where else do we read about female apostles? We read several places
>about female prophets, but never of female apostles. This would be the only
>occurrence (just as, if "Junias" is correct, it would be the only occurence).
> Maybe that's all they're saying.
>
>Seems to me that the evidence is split about fifty-fifty. Nothing really
>rules out "Junias", and nothing "Junia." And nothing really pushes us very
>hard in one direction more than the other.
(1) There is, in fact, no evidence that "Junias" IS a shortened form of
"Junianus." And, in fact, it looks suspiciously like the entire argument is
manufactured in order to make of the Greek IOUNIAN a masculine form. As I
argued at the outset of the current round of this thread, the form to be
explained is IOUNIAN. The explanation of it on the surface is that this is
a feminine acc. sg. That it is NOT fem. sg. is what has to be demonstrated,
and it really hasn't been demonstrated.
(2) What is printed in a reference work has no authority in and of itself;
we know far too many instances of errors in reference works. Much as I
esteem the big A.T.Robertson, I think the book is somewhat dated (albeit
worthy of being reprinted--and as we have noted frequently, the "little
Liddell" and the intermediate Liddell are both based on the L&S edition of
over 100 years ago). A revision of BDF has long been a desideratum; a
German revision of it is in print; a project for a new GNT Grammar to
replace BDF has been under way for some time now. Neither age nor novelty
is a guarantee of accuracy. Any assertion about such a matter as IOUNIAN
stands or falls ultimately on the basis of persuasive arguments that can be
made on its behalf.
(3) This appears to be an issue upon which the decision of any one person
evaluating the evidence is likely to be based upon assumptions one brings
to bear on the evidence. I think that a lot of what has been called
evidence has been speculated into existence based upon an assumption that
there just simply COULDN'T have been female church officers in the first
century. My own guess (only that) is that there are more likely to have
been female church officers in the first century than in the second, more
likely in the second than the third. What in the first century was a much
more egalitarian and revolutionary religious movement settled into
institutional patterns and increasingly adopted the standards and biases of
its secular milieu.
I apologize for my comment, which is anything but "ever so brief." I am
inclined to apologize also for bringing this subject back to the list so
soon after the last round of discussing it. I brought it up only because I
hadn't heard the new twist on the argument for a masculine Junias based
upon the Greek accents.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 14:43:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: 1 Tim. 2:15--"get safely through"
In a message dated 95-11-26 Will Wagers writes:
>In this vein, can anyone point to any evidence for there being two paths to
>salvation - one for males and one for females in the NT?
Not NT, but in 2 Clement there is that strange notion of the female having
to become male in order to have salvation. It's not a literal passage, but
some kind of allegory. I think it is referring to females needing to become
celibate in order to be saved-- the opposite of Paul's advice.
Tim Staker
Timster132@aol.com
------------------------------
From: Stephen Carlson <scc@reston.icl.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 23:13:41 EST
Subject: Re: Bible study software? (fwd)
John Calvin Hall wrote:
> >In the OLB version I have, Strong's # are only available in the English
> >(KJV) module, not the Greek module, and are of course keyed to the
> >Textus Receptus instead of the NA26/UBS3. Thus, they are not useful for
> >serious Greek work.
>
> Your statement is based on the "assumption" that everyone considers the
> Critical Text to be the superior.
It's also based on the the fact that it is quite inconvenient to be
constantly switching from the English to Greek modules and back again.
Their 3-in-1 Greek modules (TR, Byz, and NA/UBS) should make everyone
happy (unless a critical apparatus is desired).
Stephen Carlson
- --
Stephen Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations, : ICL, Inc.
scc@reston.icl.com : and songs chant the words. : 11490 Commerce Park Dr.
(703) 648-3330 : Shujing 2:35 : Reston, VA 22091 USA
------------------------------
From: Stephen Carlson <scc@reston.icl.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 23:26:30 EST
Subject: Re: Junia/Junias nochmals
I was temporarily unsubscribed from the list today, so forgive me for
retreading any old ground.
Carl W. Conrad wrote:
> My query:
> Do we really have any EARLY evidence for accentuation of such names in the
> Greek MSS? I just don't know enough, but my impression is that the accents
> are not present at all in the older uncial MSS and that their appearance in
> the cursive MSS is not necessarily a reliable indication. So is there any
> significant evidence that the accent on IOUNIAN actually WAS a circumflex
> on the A? In other words, is that supposedly masculine ending on the name
> really ancient or might it well be a product of copyists who make the
> assumption that it was a masculine name?
Is it just me, or do others think that the apparatus in the UBS4 is a
bit puzzling on this point:
Text: IOUNIA=N
Apparatus: {A} IOUNIA=N (masculine) (Aleph A B* C D* F G P, but
written without accents) // IOUNI/AN (feminine) B2 D2 Psi-vid
0150 33 81 104 [+ 17 other miniscules] Byz [L] Lect Chrysostom
// IOULI/AN P46 6 it-ar,b vg-mss cop-bo eth Jerome
What does it mean to be "masculine ... but written without accents"
when the unaccented form is ambiguous as to gender? Or does it only
mean that the correctors to B and D thought it was masculine? Why
then does it have an A rating?
Stephen Carlson
- --
Stephen Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations, : ICL, Inc.
scc@reston.icl.com : and songs chant the words. : 11490 Commerce Park Dr.
(703) 648-3330 : Shujing 2:35 : Reston, VA 22091 USA
------------------------------
From: David Housholder <73423.2015@compuserve.com>
Date: 30 Nov 95 23:26:24 EST
Subject: Re: Standardized Transliteration
Carl Conrad supports the upper case transliteration scheme for Greek. Personally
I find the lower case transliteration easier to read. I expect practice and
familiarity make the difference in preference and I may learn to appreciate the
upper case approach, but when I see longer quotations (more than a word or two)
in the upper case transliteration I skip and hope I can figure out what the
writer is talking about by reading the comments.
Again, that's just me but I would be interested to know if others have the same
difficulties.
David Housholder
writing at 11:24 PM on Thursday, November 30, 1995
------------------------------
From: Akulas@aol.com
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 23:55:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Junia/Junias nochmals und weiter ... und weiter
Dr. Conrad,
Thank you for your "ever so brief" comments on this to one who missed the
earlier discussion, and for forwarding my letter which I inadvertently sent
to you instead of the list.
I want you to know that I personally have no doctrinal axe to grind on this.
In fact, I had for a long time accepted that IOUNIAN was indeed the acc. of
IOUNIA and that we therefore had a female apostle, and was perfectly at peace
with that....all up until just this past week (how's that for coincidence?),
when for various reasons I found myself looking at it again. To be honest, I
would still like it to be feminine; I find the idea quite refreshing.
I can see your point. Why would anyone go hunting for a masculine form
behind IOUNIAN? But for whatever prejudicial and just plain bad reasons,
people have indeed gone hunting, and found what they were looking for. Now,
we might be disgusted at that, and probably rightly so. And the masculine
form thus obtained might (and does) have the appearance of being
manufactured.
But still, I can't shake the fact that it IS viable. There very well could
be a masculine form behind the word.....in fact, the more I think about it,
the more possible it seems.
So here we are, like it or not, with two viable possibilities. We don't have
the nominative of the word and we don't have an article with it, and the
context doesn't inform us. And so there's no way to insist on its being one
way or the other.
You know better than I that if you have a situation where it could very well
be either this or that, then to be conclusive the only thing you can do is
rule out one or the other. So then, if you wish to affirm that the word is
feminine, I would think that it is on you to show that it is NOT masculine.
BTW, I didn't mean to leave the impression of quoting grammars as
authorities. Rereading it, I see how much it looked that way, but I wasn't
quoting them to prove anything about the Junias/Junia question other than
that greek masculine proper names sts. had shortened forms, and that such a
shortened form often would have taken the feminine-looking -AN ending in the
accusative.
Tim Mize
6802 Willoughby Ct
Indianapolis IN, 46214
akulas@aol.com
"Junias/Junia" -- Isn't this the name of a currently running broadway play
starring Julie Andrews?
------------------------------
From: craigos@ix9.ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 23:19:05 +0000
Subject: Re: Standardized Transliteration
> There is no standard but this system is popular:
>
> Greek Alphabet: A B G D E Z H Q I K L M N C O P R S T U F X Y W
> rough breathing:h, iota subscript:i, digamma:w; acute:/, grave:\, circumflex:=
>
> I think that the introductory materials for this list should include
> a statement about the transliteration system. What do others think?
>
> Stephen Carlson
Thank you! I agree, it would help to include this with the welcome
letter.
maranatha,
craig
- ------------------------------------------------------
In everything give thanks,for this is the will of God,
in Christ Jesus concerning you!
The Rolingers'
Craig (Eph 5:25),
Nancy (Pro 31),
Ginger(Phil 3:2)
------------------------------
From: "Wes C. Williams" <71414.3647@compuserve.com>
Date: 01 Dec 95 00:48:03 EST
Subject: Word Perfect DOS conversions
Dear Mr. Mounce,
>> Someone told me that Word Perfect DOS 5.1 has the macro capabiity to
convert the different character sets in Word Perfect to other characters. I
am looking for a way to convert a bunch of files that use Zondervan's
Scripture Fonts into Windows. None of the normal conversions work because
the Greek and Hebrew all occupy ASCII slots < 32 or > 127 and when you open
the files in a word processor like Word Perfect Windows the ASCII values
are reassigned to the space or underscore. <<
I am a software developer who has dealt with this many times successfully in the
commercial market. However, I solve the problem from a programmer's viewpoint.
If you have access to a programmer (even a BASIC programmer will do), here is
what to do:
A Word Perfect 5.1 file (internally) begins a new font with a series of codes.
For example, Bold is C4 0C C4. Bold Off is C3 0C C3.
If you can find a friend who is a programmer, have him look at your Word Perfect
file in HEX format (using a common utility like LIST.COM or DEBUG.EXE).
He needs to visually find the place where a Zondervan Scripture Font begins
(this is a very easy task, easier than learning the the 1st nominative
declension of hO).
If the entire document is in Zondervan Scripture Font format, you can insert a
line in the file in "normal" format as follows"
{my normal font}This is to identify the Zondervan start code--->{Zondervan
Scripture Font start}hO theos{my normal font}. You will find the start three
byte code after the ---> pointer (note that before it there will be a closing
three byte code for {my normal font} first, however).
Identify and write down the three byte code. The first and last bytes will be
identical.
Each character after the last three byte code will be a one-for-one
correspondence to the character mapping for Zondervan's Scripture Font.
He needs to visually find the place where a Zondervan Scripture Font ends.
Identify and write down the three byte code. The first and last bytes will be
identical.
He needs to write a quick and simple program to search for the first three
bytes, and then change each successive character afterwards from the "old"
Zondervan Scripture Font to the "new" windows character set. The program needs
to stop the conversion when the second three byte sequence is found.
Please do not think for a moment that this is difficult. It sounds more
difficualt than it is.
If you have any difficulty at all, or if I was not clear, I will be glad to
offer assistance. You can mail a sample to me privately and I will identify the
codes and write pseudocode for the task, no charge.
Sincerely,
Wes Williams
Software Consultant
------------------------------
From: LISATIA@aol.com
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 00:59:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Basic Foundation
dear Dan
We have a cynical and perverse generation of Christians out there, people
who think that studying the grammar of the bible is injurious to your health
and salvation. Yours is an insolent question, because you presume you have
an answer for those who have suffered for the truth.
lisatia@aol.com richard arthur, Merrimack, NH
------------------------------
End of b-greek-digest V1 #22
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